HORIBA, Ltd. (6856) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Yes. So I would go to the next one. What is the ratio of the Raman microscope for doing such analysis and how much laser we will need for this type of application? Okay. configuration of the Raman microscope is pretty standard configuration. You don't have to have a very specific configuration. The suggestion, of course, is to have enough objective with also higher modification because this will allow you to have more flexibility with a layer you want to analyze because, as I mentioned, your layer is very thin, you need to have 100x objective. But sometimes, it's better to have a 10x objective whether an easy -- the complete view of your sample and to focus in a more easy way. So I would say, flexibility in terms of objectives is for sure an option. And regarding the laser, I would say the minimum configuration for me would be to lasers. So the 532 and 785-nanometer because when you're dealing with packaging, you can deal also with dye or ink that can be slightly fluorescent. So having a second laser in the near infra range, can allow also to address the more challenging ink or dye. And so I would suggest 2 laser and maybe free for objective. But apart from this, and of course, an automatic stage, it's pretty standard configuration for our Raman system. I will go to the next one. Is there a database of polymer spectra. Can we add one in the database? Yes, we have a dedicated library for polymers, which contain the most common polymer using the packaging field. And of course, you can add as many library as you want. I mean for doing the analysis, as you have seen layers is, first, identifying the main components, so identifying the different material of layers. And then, of course, we are using library in order to identify the components that was the layers software generates. And of course, for identifying the component, you can build your own database, use our own database and use the combination of the two. So in this case, it's not -- yes, the answer is yes, in both -- to both the question. I will go to the next one, when you will lose confocal mode instead of cross-section mode? Okay. This is a great question, and I think it will help me to clarify a little by when to use these two mode. Let's put it this way. When you want to have the best lateral resolution. So when you want to reach the limit of the Raman microscope, cross-section mode it's the way that you need to use. Because when you are working in confocal mode, your laser needs to go through layers of different refractive index. So you can have some modification of the real thickness. And also, you can have some limitation on the lateral resolution. So lateral and confocal resolution. So I would suggest when you want to analyze a very thin layer, it's better to work in cross-section mode. When you are doing defect analysis that you just need to collect one single spectrum or when you -- or when you cannot cut the polymer multilayer structure, then you can go without any issue in confocal mode. Just to give you an example, in cross section, as I mentioned, you can reach a resolution of 500-nanometer in confocal mode dealing with standard polymer, you can reach a resolution of 1.5 to Micron. In some cases, even better if you use, for example, all-immersion objective and so on, but you can consider as a general indication what I mentioned you just before. Okay. I will go to the next one. How long I need to analyze my multilayers using layer app? Okay. So this is -- of course, it depends by the thickness of the multilayer structure. -- but we need to distinguish 2 things. Layers up is for data analysis and not for data acquisition. So as soon as you are collecting your map, then the data analysis is very fast. It can take a few seconds, and you will do the full data analysis without any problem. Regarding some of the collection at this point, I would suggest 1, 2 seconds spectrum will be more enough in case of the polymer multilayer structure. Of course, when you are dealing with fluorescent sample, you need to increase a little bit more of the acquisition time. But usually, it's not a long type of measurement, this one. It's a measurement that can be between 10 minutes to 20 minutes when you have layers of 100-micron in thickness. And when you want to reach a resolution down to 501-nanometer 1 micron, so which means that you need to do a spectrum every micron -- so I would say between 10 to 20 minutes, so you can get the full analysis of your multilayer structure. And then with layer software, you get also the measurement of the thickness and so on very quickly. Okay. Next point is, can the report be customized to differently or live out and items? Yes. This is -- the report can be customized as you want without any issue. So you can add all the type of information that you want, you can add the table, you can add the spectra, you can add the loadings and you can add a logo, you can add the data. So you can really do whatever you want on the spectrum, on the report without any issue. And I want to add an additional point, you cannot -- you can also generate some report template that you can use later on or let's say, you are a contract lab that is doing several packaging analysis and you want to have a report for each of your customers with the correct logo, with the correct format for each of your customer, you can generate a different report template and use different report template for the different type of customer. So this is also the flexibility that you have. I will go to the next one. Can the layer software added to LabRAM HR Evolution instrument? How about the vise and it can also fit on the existing stage of evolution? I would say, yes. In this case, I believe it's one of our customers that is asking this question. That's great. yes, for sure, you can do it without any issue.

If you have a specific customized stage of -- but if you have a LabRAM HR Evolution on a very big stage no problem in speaking. What I mean by specific customer sale is very big stage, for example, used for wafer analysis and so on like the 300 millimeters. perfect.

Okay. And we'll go to the next one. Can Raman differentiate between different monomer copolymer of polyethylene., such as octene, hexene, butene okay, if at the end you will have the same type of polyethylene. So you cannot distinguish the precursor okay? For example, if you have polyethylene coming from metallocene or polyethylene coming from another source. No, you cannot anguish because at the end of the day, the material you will get is still the same, polyethylene. You extinguish monomer itself. Okay? You can distinguish copolymer. For example, it can propylene polymer, you can distinguish it. But of course, you cannot distinguish the polyethylene, okay. If you -- because at the end of the day, you will get the same type of material. So from a chemical perspective, will be exactly the same. What you can distinguish is the density of the polyethylene, okay? So if you have a linear low density, if you have a low density, if you have a medium density, if you have a high density, of course, this is something you can distinguish. More closely, you want to get -- of course, more information you need to add to your method, okay? So I mean we want to distinguish high identity, low density, and medium density, it's okay. If you want to distinguish low density and super low density, ultra low density. This is something that requires much more. You need to train your method much more. And of course, we need to see if it's possible, okay? So you can distinguish -- but of course, it depends how much you are training your method and which is the limit that you want to reach. At a certain point, you cannot go too much deep in this indication, but you can do something on this direction. I will go to the next one. When analyzing the multilayer structure of the polymer and the packaging, how can one need not detecting? One can one omit the ink on it. I don't know. I mean, avoid the influence of the ink, maybe this is I mean I believe when you collect -- if the ink is well distributed, of course, our uniform distributed, you get the spectrum. This is a mix between the polymer and the ink. But usually, the -- let's say, non-natural synthetic ink, they are not fully -- I mean, -- sometimes they are -- if you have spectrum that are overlapping each other and the ink is fully distributed in the polymer, so uniform distributed, you can have an issue to distinguish the polymer. But you can try to play with a different laser to see if there is some resonance effect and maybe playing with some subtraction and so on. But most of the time, the synthetic dye ink, they have strong carbon-carbon double bond, benzene rings in ring and these type of things, but they have an auction in a specific range. So maybe you can use the rest for identifying the polymer. So this is tough to give you a clear answer. It's really a matter of case by case. And of course, I need to understand better the question. So I guess you have my name. So if you want to go deeper on any of your request, just give me -- send me an e-mail and we will have a chance to discuss more. I will go to the next one. Is it possible also to identify single component of a nano composites using the same technique I give an example on this. I mentioned to you that you can easily recognize in organic filler like titanium dioxide, okay? I mean when you are calcium carbonate or whatever you want to add in your polymer as a filler and is to improve the mechanical strength or whatever reason you have. Titanium dioxide usually is added as a dye as a white dye, but you can do whatever you want. So I would say when you add the titanium dioxide in the polymer, of course, the two are not similar materials. So they cannot be perfectly mixed. So if you use a very high magnification, you can clearly see the particle of titanium dioxide inside the polymer, okay? So it's not distributed. Of course, you cannot reach the resolution of nano, but you can clearly see that the titanium dioxide, a glomerate in bigger particle, and so you can clearly see that there is a structure, okay? So which means that if you're any filler or any additive you will add to your polymer and if this additive is not fully compatible with the polymer like an organic filler and the polymer, you will have some distribution of the compound, but you can easily identify I would say if you want to add carbon nanotube,for example, in the or graphene oxide in the polymer in order to increase the mechanical strength you will see island of the carbon nanotube of the graphene oxide, so you can see them. Of course, you cannot reach the nano resolution if this was the question. But of course, you can see a glomerate and you can see that the polymer with high magnification does not look homogenous. I hope I answered to the question that was -- that was asked. Otherwise, as I mentioned, if not, just let me know. Next question, what are some competing technology to this method or other optical selection tool. Okay. Yes, I would say the standard methodology in the past was infrared microscopy. And why now Raman is picking up for multilayer application because now the thickness of the layer is there is getting smaller and smaller and smaller, okay? So which means that in the past, the packaging material could have been of 200-micron with 5 layers. So each layer could have been in the range of 10, 20, 30 microns. Now a packaging material can be 50 microns with layers of -- with layers of thickness of 1 micron. And of course, this cannot be addressed by FTIR. So because FTIR has a limitation, I would say, in the best condition, you can reach, let's say, 7 -- 6 or 7-micron in the best condition, really best condition, but you cannot go below 1 micron or you cannot even get closer to 1 micron, okay? So this is why Raman is picking up on -- for these applications. Our optical Section 2, yes, of course, there are also visual microscopy that can be used. But of course, visual microscopy is not providing information about the chemistry. You can see the layers, but you cannot identify the chemistry of the layer. I will answer -- going to the next one, packaging material, also include dyes. Thus this effect the Raman measurement. Yes. This is what I mentioned before, it can. If you -- if the dye is fluorescent, it can affect it bit analysis. Otherwise, you will see a contribution of the dye and the polymer. So you will see a Raman spectrum that is bringing the contribution of -- so I would say it can affect a little by only if you have a florescent dye. Otherwise is not a big issue. I reach the end of the question.

Okay Max. Is there a -- any question Normally, when I say that, lots of questions are coming. We had already lots of questions. So maybe it's the end. Yes, nothing is coming. So thanks a lot, Max and Ludivine for being with us. So Thibault was not there, but we make the demonstration on the instrument. And thanks all for being with us today. I'd like to tell you that we have another webinar in 2 days on micro correlative microscopy. So if you want to join us, look at our website or LinkedIn and you will have all the information. The last one of the year will be the 13th of December, and it will be part of our series of how to do Raman spectroscopy. So it will be presented by Thibault Brulé, you see now on the video and so on with Céline Eypert, an application scientist. So somebody asked something. But can you type your question, if you want.

He would like to speak. I don't know if it is feasible.

Okay. Or maybe we can call you after.

Yes. I mean you can call me without any issue after all. And I can answer to any questions.

Okay. So he's happy with that.

Perfect.

Okay. So thanks a lot for being with us today, and see you in 2 days or next week also last webinar. Thanks a lot. Goodbye.