HT Media Limited (533217) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This is Aaditya Mulani from the HT Media Group. I would like to welcome you all to our Quarter 3 Financial Year '24-'25 Earnings webinar. [Operator Instructions] I now hand over to Ms. Anna Abraham, CFO, Hindustan Media Ventures Limited and Head Investor Relations at HT Media Group. Thank you, and over to you, Anna.

Thank you, Aaditya. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to our earnings webinar where we will be discussing the results for the third quarter of the financial year 2024, '25 of HT Media Group. On the call today, we have Mr. Piyush Gupta, Group CFO; Mr. Pervez Bajan, Head Financial Controllership and Taxation and members of our Investor Relations team. I trust that you had the opportunity to review the results of Hindustan Media Ventures Limited it was announced yesterday and of HT Media Limited released earlier today. Please note that our remarks during this webinar will align with the presentation slides. These slides along with the financial statements are available on the stock exchanges and can also be accessed on the Investor Relations section of our website. Moving forward, please have a look at the cautionary statement, which is now on the slide. In line with our standard practice, we would not be providing specific guidance on revenue or earnings. The next slide gives a quote from our chairperson on the company's performance of the quarter, and I quote, " Third quarter of the fiscal year bodes well for the overall performance of your company. Revenue grew in the annual festive season with a corresponding improvement in both business and operational metrics. On a consolidated basis, we reported growth in revenue and an improvement in operational profitability compared to last year as well as sequentially. Print advertising revenues are on the back of price and mix seen improved revenue growth. This, coupled with sustained control on our operational expenses have led to margin improvement on a Y-o-Y as well as Q-o-Q basis. The quarter also saw our radio business post strong revenue growth because of non-FCT business, although margins continue to remain under duress. In the digital business, the company continues to post revenue growth and operational improvement. Sustaining this positive momentum across our key business areas and ensuring smooth leadership transition will be our primary focus in the medium term, while we remain steadfast in our commitment to delivering credible and trustworthy news and engaging entertainment content through our legacy platforms as well as new-age product offerings." We now have the agenda for the day. We will update you on the consolidated performance as well as provide an overview of the print, radio and digital business segments. Following the presentation, we will open the floor for Q&A. With that, I now hand it over to Mr. Piyush Gupta.

Thank you, Anna. Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to our third quarter FY '25 earnings call. We will be tracking your screen. So as you can see on the webinar, the first chart is on the consolidated financial summary. As Anna just articulated, with a upward momentum in total revenue on an annual as well as a sequential basis. On a Y-o-Y basis, the revenue is up 9% and on a sequential basis, it's up 11%. If you look at the EBITDA, which came in at a positive INR 46 crores, that's a 64% improve on a Y-o-Y basis and a 42% improvement on a sequential basis. PAT came in at a negative INR 3 crores, which is a substantial improvement and on a sequential basis, a 50% improvement. Cash position remains extremely strong with December cash balance standing at about INR 920 crores, which is the same as it was last quarter. Deep diving into the [indiscernible] business unit performs have a look at the print performance, advertising growth in Print segment revenue reflected improved momentum. Financials I've already tracked, if you can see the print also grew by 9% on a Y-o-Y basis. Circulation revenue now that we are increasing a certain level of copies, so there are a certain amount of trade promotion, which is going there, but our copies continue to be on an increasing path, came in at about INR 52 crores. The total operating revenue at a 7% growth at INR 387 crores. Operating EBITDA came at INR 42 crores and operating margins improved by 400 basis points. Same situation is on a sequential basis where you can see the growth on top line at 22% and operating EBITDA growing handsomely to INR 19 crores. If we look at the ad revenue growth in print business English and Hindi. If you track the top left portion the English growth is 14% at INR 181 crore and Q-o-Q its INR 181 crores, circulation revenue if you look at it is a decline of 22% at INR 13 crores and on a sequential basis it's down 18% for the reason that I articulated earlier. Looking at Hindi, the ad revenues are up 3% and on a sequential basis up 17% and circulation revenue is a minus 6% on a Y-o-Y basis and up flat on a sequential basis. If you look at the radio performance, there is a very handsome growth of 29% on the top line with a breakeven performance on the bottom line and if you look at on a sequential basis, the growth is 46% and 88% respectively. Looking at the digital business, which is a part of HT Media consolidated results. Our top line grew by 32% to INR 51 crores and the loss position improved marginally by 24% to a negative 26%. Similar on sequential basis, it was down 7% on top line and negative 14% on the bottom line.

Thank you, Piyush. [Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Mr. Mohit Kumra.

So my questions are very specific to HMVL firstly and very specific to the balance sheet, my first question at least. In your current liabilities, you have Sundry deposits of INR 500 crores. What are these -- why do we need deposits? Are we a deposit taking company? What is happening? I don't understand.

So let me give you a specific answer. You will understand thereafter. I'm presuming that if you're using the balance sheet, you're using the 31st March or the September balance sheet, the second quarter balance sheet, right?

Of course.

Yes. So INR 588 crores of deposit that you take is consequent to our AFE business. So if you understand the AFE business, we take deposits from our prospective advertisers in which we take an investment position. So it's a reciprocal second leg of the entry% on the AFE deal that they have done. We are not a deposit seeking company under RBI and we don't see cash deposits. These are all AFE deals. These are act for equity deals, thereby the counterparty gives us deposits. And accordingly, we subscribe with a similar amount to their equity or whatever financial security that we are taking.

Fair enough. I understand. But on the same vein, I wanted to ask you, you announced yesterday also a bunch of acquisitions, so to say. Are these also all AFE, all of them?

Yes. All AFE and they are not acquisitions. These are minority investment positions. They are all AFE and they will also give rise to a security deposit like the one that you're seeing in the September balance sheet.

And ad for property within the AFE, am I correct in assuming that this is, let's say, give and take INR 200 crore?

Well, we don't give the specifics, but you will be in the ballpark because there are 2 asset classes that we deal in, which are financial securities, which be equity, or any other securities and the second asset class is equity. I won't have the exact split right now, but we don't even give that on our call, but you will be in the ballpark.

Sir, I'm talking about property, ad for property.

So when I say AFE, it's a generic word for both asset classes, equity and property. In the balance sheet, when you look at that security deposit number, that culminates both properties and equities.

No problem. I'm talking about the asset side, not the liability side. So you have listed properties under 2 heads. One is investment property, and one is held for sale. So both of these are your AFE properties, right?

Yes.

And these are approximately INR 200 crores only the property part of it.

Fair enough. Yes.

And you intend to sell all of these. There is no intention of holding...

That's what the business is. That's what the businesses. These are not used for captive consumption, and we are not keeping this for a long-term. So as you understand the AFE business, the generic characteristics of the business is that most of these assets are for sale.

So that is my balance sheet part. Can I ask you another question? Or should I get the line?

I think please get in the queue, if you don't mind.

No problem at all.

The next question is from the line of Lalit Kumar.

This is Lalit Kumar from BestMediaInfo. I just wanted to ask that as per the recent [indiscernible] report, the print industry has been shown on a decline, and it is expected to go from 17% to 15% by the year 2025. I just wanted to know is your strategy aligned with the ongoing trends. And how is it that you are taking this?

This is a great question, and this is one of the things that we keep on debating internally. So yes, we are aligned with the report. I mean those declines, will we track them to the T, will we be better or will be worse only time will tell. So multiple things which are happening here. One, to extend the life of print, we have an AFE business, as you understand, which I was just answering to the previous caller. Besides that, we are diversifying our business in quite substantial way. And this journey is not a new journey. It's been there for a while. The latest entrant to this journey is the OTT play platform on which we are currently investing. But from, let's say, if I were to just broadly give you a perspective from about 8, 10 years ago, where print revenues in the total revenue stream to constitute about 85% of the revenues. Today, they are less than 70%. But of course, print is still a substantial part of the overall consolidated revenue, but our diversification journey into digital, into radio, into other digital properties like OTT and Shine and Mosaic Ventures, et cetera, et cetera, is something that is slowing -- that is showing some traction. And obviously, we are investing with a very clear hope that we'll be able to diversify our revenue streams. Print has been under pressure for the longest time. It will continue to be so. But at this point in time, it's still the main -- the core of the business at this point in time.

The next question is from the line of Namit Arora.

This is Namit Arora from IndGrowth Capital. Sir, I have 2 questions. One is that you have a very strong balance sheet and significant access to cash. So given that, is there a thought process around taking more risk in terms of creating growth avenues? I know you were alluding to some of them. But given the very comfortable financial position, are there adjacencies that you're looking at in the broad media space that you could sort of be taking slightly more risk to deploy this cash to create growth avenues for the future?

Look, Namit, again. Namit, right? So Namit, again, another great question. But as I said, look, I think everything has to be collaborated not just from an affordability point of view, which is the cash on the balance sheet, but also where you're right to succeed and where the right adjacencies lie. Now being a legacy media company, which has a very strong brand presence, obviously, we are extending ourselves into the digital new genre and with new, we're also going into various other languages, which either we were not there on the digital platforms. We are extending ourselves into other adjacencies like OTT play into Shine, which is a classified engine into Mosaic, which is basically catering to a VC and PE kind of a stage. So those are the things that we are doing. Now beyond a certain point in time, I don't think we would like to just deploy investment for the heck of it because there's something called a right to win and something called the absorption capacity. So at this point in time, I think we would like to focus on the things that we are doing, and we'd like to rather go deep than go wide on this. Our investments in OTT play and in our digital businesses and digital business is not part here. I'm talking about the sister concern, which is DCL, are reasonably substantial, and we will keep on doing that because really those are the avenues where we have a great right to succeed. We have a lot of skill because we've been doing that, and our investments are currently tracking that.

Got it. This is very helpful. I have one more question. With your permission, can I go ahead? Sir, you have 2 listed companies. Now I understand that one is a holding company with a 74% stake, but administratively and otherwise, it's probably a little cumbersome. Any thoughts on rationalizing that? Or you think given the difficulties in the Indian environment, you are likely to continue with both the listed companies?

No. Look, I mean, the simple answer is we'd like to simplify things as much as possible. But given the Indian environment, as you rightly alluded towards, these are a bit of challenges. But if we get -- let's say, if we manage to bring all our creditors and shareholders together, we would definitely like to follow that stream. But at this point in time, we are continuing the way it is.

The next question is from the line of Hari. S. The next question is from the line of Narendra Khuthia.

This is Narendra from RoboCapital. So sir, my only question is regarding the radio business, right? So could you throw some light on where the radio yields are as compared to pre-COVID levels? And what needs to be done to take these yields back to those levels?

That's also a great question, Narendra. The simple answer is no, they are still struggling versus the pre-COVID level. So there are multiple things that we are trying in the marketplace. Of course, taking yield at this point in time where the digital music or the digital audio is gaining so much traction is not an easy journey, but we are on it for the longest time. And there is some improvement in this quarter's result on a Y-o-Y basis. But of course, that doesn't take us to a pre-COVID level at this point in time. However, from an overall audio business perspective, there are a lot of new initiatives that we are throwing into the mix. If you see the growth -- the handsome growth that you see this quarter is primarily driven by -- not just by on-air properties, but by off-air properties as well, including events and various other adjacencies, which sit very well with the radio business. So yield is definitely top of the agenda, but it's a marathon. I mean it's not a spin. So we are at it. And hopefully, sooner rather than later, we'll be able to bring it up to a pre-COVID level, which has been the stated intent, and we are at it, but we're still far away from the pre-COVID levels.

Could you share some steps that we are taking towards this, if possible?

Sorry, come again, what's your question?

Yes. So I was asking, could you share what all the initiatives are we taking to do this right?

So multiple, look, I think on the digital platform, we are taking our audio properties digitally because a lot of customers are shifting digitally. So that's where we are now also trying to capture our customers and our listeners, so that the revenue basically can come from a different stream. We are doing a lot of events, musical events in various cities where we've got a radio property present, which is an auto extension of a terrestrial radio property. So that's the other thing that we are on to apart from obviously, the yield management and the inventory management that we are at any point in time. Now also the point to be understood is radio is a very heavily regulated business, and there is a lot of royalty and license commitments and fees that you have to pay to the government. So there are various proposals that at an industry level are pending with the government to take some ease off the sector. Some part of that, the government has already relented and the balance we are hoping at some point in time will be given. So with those things coming into being, the economics will change very substantially for the matter, of course, but that's only something that time will tell.

The next question is from the line of Yash R.

First of all, congratulations for a good set of numbers as far as ad revenue numbers are concerned for [indiscernible]. Would like to know as to what -- I mean, we've done well. So I would like to know the reason behind it, what are the verticals that have contributed and whether we have this revenue on account of a greater volume? Or is it because of pricing has improved drastically?

Okay. So let me request my colleague Anna to take this question. Anna?

The volumes in this advertising market this quarter was not very robust. So it is pricing and mix that has helped in the revenue growth was articulated towards the first part of the conversation. We've also this is a festive quarter, so [indiscernible] we also had a -- lot of initiatives and then during this quarter as well which also helped us garner our additional debt.

Okay. Sorry for cutting -- I didn't make myself clear. My question was with regards to previous year. So I can see a decent amount of growth, 23% over previous year as well. I understand that quarter-on- would not be comparable because we have festive during this quarter, but what about the comparison versus previous year?

I was actually giving you the comparable versus previous year [indiscernible] market volumes have not grown versus previous year. However [indiscernible] to grow pricing, it's just a combination of the absolute price increase as well as the categories because there is a difference in pricing between categories also. So there's a mix impact there is a pure pricing impact. And as I mentioned, we've been able to garner more revenue from special initiatives and events this quarter vis-a-vis quarter of last year.

And if I may just add to what my colleague just said, look, as I was explaining to one of the other participants on this call, earlier. So the industry reports are also not predicting exponential growth in the print revenues, which is how it's playing out in terms of volumes. So really, the next lever that we have is on the pricing, which Anna is alluding towards. So we've been on to pricing. But given the festive buoyancy, et cetera, et cetera, that was a good opportunity, and we managed to capitalize very well on that. So that's definitely given a flip to the P&L. And the other initiatives which Anna was articulating are these various events and off-air or off-property events that we have done, which helped us garner handsome revenues.

What events would these be, if you can just give an example?

So we have multiple events that happens both in English markets and in Hindi market. So Leadership Summit is a big event that we had. We also have other initiatives like in the HT and Mind et cetera, which happened this quarter.

Okay. And which are the verticals that contributed to the growth?

Well, both [indiscernible]

Yes. We do give segment financials, so you can see that print and radio has both grown.

Okay. No, no. I'm talking about the print vertical per se, print business per se this part because I can see a comment that says a key commercial categories except FMCG, BFS and industrial, but there has been no word on the sectors that have done well or the categories have done well.

Most of the other sectors have grown well. So auto has done well, real estate has done well, retail has done well. So we only quoted the ones which have not done well.

Okay. That's great. What about the circulation revenue, I think I missed that point. Why is there a degrowth not just versus previous year, but previous quarter as well? Is this because of the drop in copies...

Well not exactly -- as I was explaining to your colleague earlier, we are on a journey to increase our copies in the marketplace. And for that, we are giving a certain amount of discount as a initial discount for the copy. So that's bringing down the circulation revenue. So the realization per copy to that extent is coming down slightly, but we are increasing the number of copies with a hope that the circulation can increase.

And so I mean, what about the copies? Are they flat versus previous quarter? Or where is it?

No. So basically, versus previous quarter, they are going up. But on the revenue, you will find that the revenue is going down because there's a cost associated to that, which is coming, which is only the initial cost. Once the copies have become structural, the cost goes away and the copies stay.

Okay. So this is -- the cost is just the discount is what you're talking about, right?

Yes.

The next question is from the line of Mehul Parikh.

So one of my question is the tie-up that we have with BSNL, where we are offering OTT play on BSNL network. So they are offering it free to their subscribers. So are we getting paid for something? Or is it -- and is it up for the subscriber? Or is it a lump sum amount.

So Mehul, first of all, that tie-up is having a sputtering start. I mean BSNL as being a government organization is into various discussions with us a full-fledged tie-up has still not come into the beam. But whatever services that we are providing to them, we are getting paid. So BSNL might be providing it to their customer base, et cetera, for a discounted price. But whatever services we are providing at this point in time, we are obviously getting paid for it. But as I said that tie-up has to come into full blue. It's still not there.

Okay. Are you expecting it to happen?

Well, it's a multiple discussion process. Our discussion with BSNL. BSNL is discussing with a lot of service providers, so we will have to wait and watch.

Okay. And the expenses on OTT play that we are doing every year, are we expecting it to go down in future or continue at these levels?

Go down for sure. The next question is from the line of Vedanth [indiscernible].

Yes. So I would just like to ask one question related to the events. You alluded to the fact that you've got significant revenue coming from there. But if you can just detail which segment would this additional revenue be under? Like would it be under the print or radio and how much would that be? If you could just quantify it?

Well, it will be under both the segments, but I'll ask Anna to give you the details. Anna?

Yes. So we have it under print, and we have it under radio. We will not be able to quantify it for you. But across categories, we have advertisers participate in the initiatives. In print, we have it in Hindi locations and is HD nothing. It is nothing every quarter, we do have similar initiatives, it's not that that this is been specific to this quarter. Does that is two scaled events happen this quarter and it happen together. Otherwise, every quarter, we do have some level of events happening.

Okay. All right. And if I can just understand from the event side, would you say from your margin standpoint, is this more or less accretive than the normal maybe print ad volumes or radio ad volumes?

Well, one thing that you need to understand is -- well, they are all different. So first of all, there are some events which are continuing for a very long time like the Leadership Summit. Now these things will already have an IP created to that, so they will have a better margin. There are some that we are doing very technically, they might or might not have a margin and some we do to garner a certain amount of revenue to make a segue into a certain segment, which might be at a marginally negative margin also. So basically, if you want to paint a general picture, I would say the -- on property revenue will be generally always more profitable because it's automatically got a brand associated with it. But if the event has become branded over a period of time, obviously, it can come to those levels or exceed. But the ones that are done technically for a specific reason might not have those kind of margin profiles.

The next question is from the line of Mehul Pathak.

Congratulations on good set of numbers on the top line.

Well, I'm happy Mehul that you are happy.

No, I'm not -- I'm happy.

I know that your smile are happy.

No, the ad revenue going up is definitely a pleasant sign and...

With your good wishes and your blessing, Mehul, we'll be able to take it even further up. Let's see. But this is not a forward-looking statement. This is just to you.

Okay. Two questions. The first is that other expenses on a half yearly basis are up INR 80 crores. So I'm usually seeing that whenever top line goes up, the bottom line also significantly goes up and therefore, accretion to the bottom line is just not happening. So if some color on...

Yes, Mehul. So -- okay. Anna wants to say something.

Yes. So...

Let me complete my question. So some color on the bottom line on the expenses first with some breakup, if you can share as to how much of that is strategic and how much is to generate revenue. So for example, if it is strategic, the other expense, then I would say that, okay, in future, it might give. So at least some, I would say, color on the management thought behind the increase in expenses. And the other thing is when will -- when can we hope that the top line will grow faster than the expenses? So that is question number one.

Okay, Anna, go for question number 1.

Yes. So Mehul the other expenses slot that your seeing is largely on account of our investments in OTT play, because except for salaries, all the other cost of OTT play [indiscernible] this particular line. And therefore and OTT is also a separate segment so you can see what the costs are and therefore most of it and that is really the reason for our increase in cost and some related request cost [indiscernible] events. Every other cost is completely under control and in line [indiscernible] So that's the absentee [indiscernible]

When will we start seeing the rate of change of top line has to be higher than the rate of change of expenses, we are waiting that...

So Mehul...

[indiscernible] 5, 6 years we are waiting, when will we see that happen?

So Mehul, let me try to triangulate 2 or 3 conversations here. One of other investors on this call was basically talking about making investments in future-looking businesses, which is currently the OTT play and the digital business, which is not sitting here, but that's where it is going, right? The second thing is how do we bulletproof or hedge our print revenue streams, which are under perpetual pressure and the pressure has only gone from that towards post-COVID. Now the whole thing is there will be some tactical plays, there will be some strategic plays. Now if you basically break down the segment separately, if you look at the print revenue separately and divulge that from the investment P&L of OTT play, et cetera, et cetera, you will see that the operating leverage really what you're talking about is indeed in this quarter on the print side flowing down to the bottom line. So the revenues are growing much faster than the expenses. But what vitiates the picture is because OTT play expenses are sitting, which, by the way, themselves on a Y-o-Y basis are 65% lower than the same quarter last year, but there are still substantial expenses happening there. And that is a business for future that we are in the -- on the journey of creation at this point in time. Hence, that is initiating the picture. But print itself, the operating leverage is flowing. Now on the investment P&L, we are very prudently making those investments in a calibrated manner to see that the outcomes really impact. Now if these businesses do all scale up in the next 4, 5 years, then of course, you'll have that operating leverage flowing from all the business and all the revenue streams.

You are saying the word if, so...

Well, if this is 5 years, I mean, I can't give you a 5-year statement. What I'm saying is we are investing for a business we believe will create a long-term sustainable value creation for all shareholders. Now we are on this journey, and we've been transparently sharing with all our shareholders. Now whether that will go into a 30% EBITDA business or a lesser or a more number, only time will tell. We found the space and we are very diligently investing in the space. Let's see what eventually comes out when this business becomes mature.

Can I ask my second question, or I'll go back into the queue.

If you can go back in the queue, Mehul that we'll appreciate it.

Next question is from the line of Mohit Kumra.

So this is specifically related to OTT play now. You don't give a lot of forward-looking statements, but it is like common knowledge that there are about 125 million paying viewers in India for OTT and all, YouTube and Netflix and what have you, everything in the world. That's a roundabout figure. Can somebody looking at your company or investing in your company at least assume that you'll take 1% of that market out of 125 million? Is that a fair assumption to make?

Well, that is definitely a fair assumption. I think it will be more than that. But one thing, if you want to two-up that equation into economics, you will have to basically from the total addressable market, you'll have to go to the value proposition that is what is the subscriber paying you, then you'll have to basically go into the cost of acquisition and then saying which are the mature subscribers who are now coming, let's say, on automat -- like because you're talking about YouTube and Netflix, most of these are on auto renewal property. So we are basically -- we will definitely -- we are definitely addressing more than 1%. But at this point in time, there is a certain ARPU and there is a certain acquisition cost that we are getting out of pocket on. And those are the metrics which have to go up. And the addressable market will definitely be more than 1% because if there are 125 million or 12.5 crore people there with a bouquet of 30-plus OTTs that we are giving them for a fraction of the cost of the sum of parts, we will be able to address a much bigger market than 1% for sure.

I'm just trying to be pessimistic at the moment, to be honest. So let's say 1%...

Yes. No, so -- fair enough. So call that as your baseline, but I'm saying we will go beyond the baseline there.

So you will be very disappointed if it is 1%, let's say, in 2 years, 3 years, you will be disappointed at least.

Well, me personally, absolutely.

Okay. So as of this moment, you are showing -- all these are ballpark figures. So as of this moment, your digital, if I analyze your 9 months, it's approximately INR 50 crores your revenue. And if I just take an average of, let's say, INR 200 ARPU, I went to your site and saw the different schemes. So you have approximately 2 lakh users right now. Am I correct in that? Or is that unfounded?

Yes, well, that's not correct, but we will not like to share that on a public call, but that number is not correct.

Okay. Okay. I won't try to trick to tell you something. But my first question was that it is reasonable to assume that you will -- if this business is to be successful, you will have 1% of the market, let's say, 10 lakh users, let's say, INR 200 RPU, let's say, in a couple of years, you should at least be doing INR 200 crores, INR 250 crores of business per year from this stream, if you want to be.

I absolutely agree with your broad calculation. I agree.

Fair enough. And when will this expense of your absolute -- see, any -- running any business you switch on a tube light in your office, you -- expenses are always there. But when will the chunk of the expenses cater off in this? Because you initially told us in previous calls that you had been expensing everything. Nothing is capitalized in this business. Everything is expensed, right?

Yes.

And when will we expect this cater off the expenses?

Well, if you just compare the segment on a Y-o-Y basis, the expenses this quarter versus the third quarter FY '24 is down 65%, if you see that, right?

Yes.

And if this journey continues, you can already extrapolate that how the numbers will go forward. Now the only trick is expenses, again, you'll have to break down in 2 or 3 big buckets, right? Some will be direct expense, which is the CAC kind of expense, the cost of acquisition of customers. Then basically renewal has a certain kind of expense and then you have the SG&A kind of expenses, right? So the moment the product itself establishes and embeds itself into that 1% or 2% or 10% or what have you, the CAC itself goes away. And then obviously, the economics change very substantially. The only other second part outside of expense is the ARPU as you are talking about INR 200. Now if it is INR 200, I mean, it has a mix of people who are currently on a discounted scheme, people who are currently on a full price scheme and everything in between. So once that number settles at somewhere close to 200, as you're saying, the economics become very, very different.

So -- but I would also...

Sorry to interrupt. May we request you to fall back in queue for follow-up questions, please?

There is no follow-up question. I was just having a discussion on the same point.

Okay. You can have one last point to make.

I would like to sort of register what you can only call a complete right now. There is Mr. Avinash who is the CEO of OTT play separately, right?

Yes.

Now his interaction with the public and if you just make a simple Google search and he has interviews with other people, if you go to the news part of the Google search. This is discussed and I said this once before also in some 2, 3 con calls ago. Whatever he says in public, your shareholders have a right to hear that directly from you or from him. And since this is becoming a very big part of your business, I am sure all your investors would deeply appreciate if Mr. Avinash was here to answer questions because if you just Google right now, there is an interview with somebody called media brief in which he is confirming that the thing that BSNL has done and he's confirming that some big event on live sports is going to come -- big announcement is going to come. Don't you feel that your investors who come on this call deserve to hear it before anybody, a, and directly from him, b, all this. That we should hear this, right? You are very steadfast in your...

Got your point. What you hear on this call is factual and which should be what is taken as the correct picture. There are -- we are the representatives of the company to make -- be able to disclose this information and to give you the factual position.

He's the CEO.

Yes, I get it. But there are sometimes expectations which are conveyed. And therefore, if at all you want facts, please take what we are saying as facts. And in the meantime, we have registered your point and we will ensure that the Street is not getting many [indiscernible] information that the factual information please refer to our call.

The next question is from the line of Hari. S.

Okay. This is Hari from -- I'm individual investor. My question is regarding this cash holding has increased for this quarter. What is the reason? And the second one is regarding this holding cash for advertisement because it has become a huge investment like maybe it should be reported as a separate head, because are there any provisions being made on the investments? Or are they in a profit or not? That would be full, sir.

So we heard you. I think there is disturbance, but let me try and address what we thought we heard you. There has been cash generation on the back of better operating performance of the company, better working capital release and you were alluding to the investments that we do as part of AFE, I think there also has news articulated earlier, the journey is always to ensure exits and generating cash and that also we've been successful. So we -- all of those -- all of those are starting to do better cash that you're seeing in the books and -- we reported that as well. And on -- whenever we publish our financials any provisions, et cetera, are clearly separately called out, so you have information on those. Any mark-to-market movements are also [indiscernible] any profits that we make are part of our other income. So I think our all appropriate disclosures are in place as and when we give the detailed financial statements and the balance sheet.

The next question is from the line of Yash R. [Operator Instructions]

Okay. So with regards to the staff cost, I can see there is a slight uptick in the cost versus previous quarter. So that would be around 4% to 5%. What's the reason behind the same? I mean since it debit here...

You mean the previous quarter sequentially versus the second quarter, you mean, right?

Correct. Correct. So it was [indiscernible] if I am not mistaken, it is INR 140. So there's a small uptick. It's slightly lesser than 5%.

Yes. So we had in quarter 2, I mean there are some variable components, which get paid on a half yearly basis, based of which there was some reversal in quarter 2 [indiscernible] adjusted for the reversal it's a flat cost.

Okay. And just one more question. Can you give us the copies that are there per se for the quarter for English and language per se?

That's not an information that we disclose it for now.

The next question is from the line of Mehul Pathak.

Mehul Pathak, Independent investor. Can you hear me, Piyush, Anna.

Yes. Mehul, please go ahead.

It's a larger level question, and that is last 5 years, INR 700 crores of net worth has gone. It is right down. Now last 3 years -- I'm a little disappointed with the Chairperson's statement for the quarter. There is nothing in it for the shareholder. Yes, certain business-related micro statements have been made. But now it is last 3 years, salaries have increased in the company. Salaries have gone up, let's say, from INR 329 crores in '21 to INR 413 crores now. So it's almost INR 90 crore increase in the last 3 years. So internal stakeholders have been kept happy. External stakeholders, even now there is nothing. And I don't think even this year, there is likely to be a dividend. When I look at the performance, it is not going to happen. So I had this call with [indiscernible] and there was other gentlemen in your company where I had requested that I would like to know, does the company have an internal goal for all their senior executives or at least for the Board on return on capital what is the purpose of this business? Why is it running? If the cost of capital in India is, let us say, 12%, if you are below 12%, the business does not have to write to exist. What is the purpose of running a business that will never make 12%. And 12%, if you see on return on capital may mean around INR 200 crores of net profit from here. So I don't see that happening. On the other hand, money is being retained within the business. And you all are investing in various businesses. And return on capital is not visible to me as a shareholder. So did Anna have a chance to...

Of course, we had a chance. So let me try to address. So 2 parts to this question, Mehul. So I totally hear what you're saying. On the ROC point, I totally heard what you're saying. If you've got serious points, I think you should definitely bring them to the AGM. Happy to have a discussion on that. But coming on to -- the net worth is gone; therefore, the market capitalizations might be various places. And I don't want to say this whole stuff, but you look at various other listed media companies and you can look at the market capitalization of them in 2018 -- 2018, '19 before the pandemic and now, there is a bit of a challenge, and that's the only reason that we are trying to -- because of a strong balance sheet, invest in our forward-looking businesses so that the ROC and the ROEs and the return on invested capital, all those metrics can show up. Now obviously, we are trying our level best, and these are all thought-out decisions which are happening with every stakeholder in the way we are transparently bringing it to all our investors every quarter. Now whether the switch will flip in quarter or 1 year, really tough to say. But with all earnest, the management is putting their best foot forward. On the market capitalizations, et cetera, et cetera, if you just look at the competitive set in the listed space of print media companies and radio media companies, et cetera, et cetera, you'll see that we are much lesser impacted. But we are -- because we had a strong balance sheet, we have wherewithal to kind of invest in future-looking businesses, so that we can create long-term value for all shareholders, majority and minority. Regarding your other point on the employees, et cetera, et cetera, I don't think we are giving anything other than market dictated increments here. We've gone through multiple rounds of rationalization in COVID, before COVID and after COVID. but that's where we are. And I don't think it's fair to compare that we are not doing anything for the external shareholders. We are trying to very diligently trying to build businesses for tomorrow. Now how they will pan out, we will transparently keep all the shareholders in the know. But it's really -- we won't be able to predict what will come out -- after 5 years or 4 years. We are trying our level best.

I'm noting grudging internal -- stakeholders taking salaries I welcome it. My point is while you are saying that compare the market cap of other print companies, other print companies have distributed INR 2,000 crores, INR 2,000 crores, each DB Corp and [indiscernible] has shared, which HMVL has not done. So we are way behind in terms of performance even on Hindi. So I am not heard anything back that what is the glide path Anna if you can discuss with Ms. Bharti and come back to our shareholders and say that, okay, after 3 years, we are looking at 15% return on capital. You internally have a target [indiscernible] thinking return on capital.

We are taking all the things, Mehul, but just for the positive of time, we are definitely thinking about it, but I don't think I have anything new to say. We are definitely thinking. Hence, we are trying to invest not various other companies, which are the competition set that you name are trying to create businesses of tomorrow. We are trying to do that. Now how that will come out, we will see, but that's the journey, and we've got this balance sheet, and we are utilizing our balance sheet to create long-term value. Now let's see whether we are successful or not.

Thank you. Thank you, all. With this, we come to the end of the Q&A session. If you have any further queries, please reach out to the Investor Relations team. Our contact details are given in the investor presentation and are also mentioned on our website. I now hand over to Piyush for closing remarks.

Thank you, Aaditya. Thank you, dear investors. Thank you for joining our earnings call. We hope to see you again in the next earnings call, which will be the full year FY '25 earnings call. See in those meetings and all the best every one of you.