IHH Healthcare Berhad (IHH) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good evening, and welcome to the Third Quarter and 9 Months 2020 Financial Results of IHH Healthcare Berhad Analyst Briefing Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] I must advise you that this conference is being recorded today, 26th of November 2020. I'd now like to hand the call over to your first speaker today, Ms. Penelope Koh from Investor Relations at IHH. Please go ahead, Ms. Koh.

Thank you. Good evening, and welcome to IHH Healthcare Third Quarter 2020 Earnings Call for the period ended 30th September 2020. Thank you for joining us today. I'm Penelope Koh from Investor Relations. With me on the call today are Dr. Kelvin Loh, Managing Director and CEO; Mr. [indiscernible], Group Financial Controller; Mr. Dilip Kadambi, Group Head, Business Transformation. We also have our colleagues, Mr. Evren, who is the Head of Strategic Planning and Investments from Acibadem, with us on the call today. For those of you on webcast, you'll now be able to view and download our presentation slides and press release. The materials are also available for download on the IHH website. As for the sequence of the events, Dr. Loh will bring us through an overview on the results, the key highlights for the third quarter and 9 months of 2020, an update on the COVID and the operational performance for the group. Thereafter, [indiscernible] and Dilip will provide the financial performance, before Dr. Loh wraps up by discussing the outlook and key takeaways for the group. We'll have a Q&A session after the presentation. So with that, I'll turn the call over to Dr. Loh. Dr. Loh, please?

Good evening, everyone. Thank you for joining us for this results briefing. For this presentation, we will continue to provide more granularity to our disclosures as well as share IHH's progressive recovery in the third quarter. And starting on Slide 5. I'm glad to report that IHH has seen a rebound from a challenging Q2 2020. Not only did we turn in a profitable quarter, we did even better than a year ago. There were 3 main drivers for this strong performance. First, as economies gradually reopened in Q3, local patients have returned in strength to our facilities even if international travel remains curtailed. As a result, occupancy levels have recovered to 50% to 65% across our markets. This is roughly about 70% to 90% of pre-COVID levels. In Malaysia, Turkey, India and Hong Kong, we saw improved revenue intensity. And with Turkey reopening its border since June, we saw a strong recovery in foreign patient numbers there. Second, we adapted to the situation quickly. To protect our top line, we launched various COVID-19-related services to mitigate the impact from the pandemic. On the bottom line, to ensure a strong cash position, we applied strict cost controls and managed our cash and ForEx positions prudently. We managed to preserve our margins even as government grants and reliefs gradually tapered off. Finally, we continue to execute on our Refreshed Strategy for longer-term growth. We have taken significant steps, which I will go through in more detail after the next few slides. Moving on to Slide 6. You will find an overview of our year-on-year financial performance for the quarter and year-to-date ended September. Naturally, our year-to-date results reflect the challenges from COVID-19 that have impacted all industries, including health care, particularly in the Q2 of 2020. However, I'd like you to focus on Slide 7. Here, you can see how we have recovered from the second quarter of 2020 when COVID-19 hit us hardest in April and May. As economies continue to reopen and should government be able to contain a resurgence in COVID-19 cases in some markets, we can expect a sustained recovery moving forward. On Slide 8, as we continue to adapt nimbly to COVID-19, it is important that we do not lose sight of the bigger picture. Earlier this year and even before we knew about the pandemic, we had launched our Refreshed Strategy. One of the key pillars of the strategy was to review our portfolio and capital deployment so as to prioritize returns. To that end, in November, we entered into a share purchase agreement to divest our entire 50% equity stake in the Apollo Gleneagles Hospital joint venture in Kolkata. This was an opportunity for us to monetize our noncore asset so we can recycle capital to grow efficiently via our cluster strategy. Let me assure you that India is a key and strategic market for IHH. We remain fully committed and focused on growing in India as our home market. Here on Slide 9, in line with our geographical cluster strategy to drive more efficient growth, we have completed the acquisition of Prince Court Medical Centre on 1st September, and this forms part of our Klang Valley cluster in Malaysia. Prince Court, or PCMC for short, complements our existing hospitals positioning within the Klang Valley, and we can derive synergies, including reducing overheads via shared corporate and marketing function and potentially providing high equity services without needing to duplicate sets of the same equipment. It also means that existing PCMC patients gain access to a much broader suite of service offerings through our Center of Excellence model in our Klang Valley Hospital cluster. Importantly, we also welcome the talented medical professionals at Prince Court into our network. Of course, we undertook this with strict cost and cash discipline. Even after the acquisition, we still have a lot of headroom to ensure we remain resilient. Moving on to Slide 11. One of our unique competitive advantages is IHH's global scale and network. Our diversified portfolio has provided stability and resilience to our earnings during this pandemic. As our key markets are at different phases of the pandemic, some can contribute more volume recovery, and even as others experienced a resurgence of COVID-19, its appropriate movement restrictions such as in Malaysia. So differential recovery and being affected in different markets enables us to smooth that out and, therefore, be stable and resilient. Moving to Slide 12. For our Malaysia operations, you can see the significant recovery in Q3 here. On a quarter-on-quarter basis, revenue increased 33%, as local patients returned since the lifting of the movement control order in June. COVID-19 screening and swab test services contributed to about 3% of revenue for Q3. EBITDA more than doubled, and inpatient admissions increased 37% in Q3 as compared to Q2 2020. Revenue intensity grew as the case mix improved. As at the end of Q3, average occupancy has recovered to around 50%. Year-on-year, revenue was down 4%, and EBITDA was lower by 10%. On Slide 13, you can see our Singapore operations remaining resilient as we saw revenue recover. On a quarter-on-quarter basis, revenue increased 24% as local patients returned post circuit breaker in Q2. EBITDA increased 56%, and inpatient admissions increased 26% -- sorry, EBITDA increased 56% and inpatient admissions increased 26% in Q3. COVID-19-related services included diagnostic testing, border screening and treatment of COVID-19 patients, contributed about 10% of Q3 revenue for Singapore. And government reliefs contributed 11% of the EBITDA for the quarter. Revenue intensity was down slightly, as travel restrictions meant fewer foreign patients who typically require more complex care. As at the end of Q3, average occupancy has recovered to 52%. Year-on-year, revenue was down 8%, and EBITDA was lower by 2%. On Slide 14, our Turkey and Central and Eastern European operations recovered to close to normal in Q3. On a quarter-on-quarter basis, revenue increased 50%. EBITDA tripled, and inpatient admissions increased 27%. As the economy reopened, we saw both local and foreign patients return to our hospitals. For our Turkey operations, foreign patients accounted for about 15% of revenue contribution. Towards the last week of August, Acibadem started to see foreign patient volumes reaching pre-COVID levels. For the month of September, foreign patient revenue was, in fact, at 18% of total revenues. COVID-19-related services contributed to about 7% of revenues in the quarter. Further, revenue intensity [ increased ] 8.1% with more complex cases taken. And as at the end of Q3, average occupancy has rebounded to 65%. Year-on-year, revenue increased 1%, while EBITDA grew by 20%. On Slide 15. For our India operations, we are seeing the steady recovery continue. On a quarter-on-quarter basis, revenue increased 67% in Q3 as local patients returned. And on treating COVID-19 patients as well, EBITDA turned positive. And we also, of course, successfully undertook tight cost controls, and inpatients admissions increased by 37%. COVID-19-related services in India contributed to 26% of revenue for the quarter. Revenue intensity increased on the recovery of local patient numbers and also from taking in COVID-19 patients. At the end of Q3, occupancy increased to 59%. Year-on-year, revenue declined 21%, and EBITDA was down 29%. On Slide 16, I would like to provide a quick update on Gleneagles Hong Kong Hospital. Gleneagles Hong Kong has come of age, and it put in a solid performance in Q3. In fact, it reported its strongest quarter in terms of revenue from higher patients volumes. Operational losses continued to narrow, as Gleneagles Hong Kong continued to ramp up. As at the end of Q3, we are now running at an average occupancy rate of 62% based on about 200 operational beds. With this, I will pass the call now to [indiscernible] and Dilip to go through the financial highlights.

Thank you, Kelvin. [indiscernible] here. On Slide 18, let me bring to your attention to the exceptional items for Q3. We recognized MYR 265.9 million exchange loss the from translation of non-Turkish lira borrowings. This was partially offset by MYR 91.9 million (sic) [ MYR 91.1 million ] of fair value gain on the cross-currency swaps entered to convert the euro bank loans into Turkish lira. This resulted in a net exchange loss of MYR 174.8 million. In this quarter, we included the realization of foreign currency translation reserve amounting to MYR 193.5 million gain upon the substantive liquidation of IHH (Bharat) Limited. Looking at our financial position on Slide 19. IHH's financial position remains healthy. The group is in strong position in terms of our funding and liquidity to weather the COVID-19 pandemic. As at 30th September 2020, net debt-to-EBITDA stood at 2.01x. The increase was on higher loans and borrowings taken prudently to finance working capital, capital expenditure and the acquisition of Prince Court Medical Centre. Our cash position was very healthy at MYR 4.2 billion, which includes the MYR 2 billion placed in escrow for the pending open offer for Fortis and Malar. I shall now pass the call over to Dilip to round out the financial highlights and to share more about how we are actively addressing our non-lira obligations.

Thank you, [indiscernible]. Moving on to Slide 20. We continue to further deleverage non-lira debt for our Turkey operations, per plan we outlined a year ago. Do note, our FX exposure relates only to our Turkish operations. Our European earnings in euro, hence, we spend in euro, so there is no FX risk in our European operations. As our European operations stabilizes and grows, we will further generate euro revenues and euro cash balances, which will further derisk our FX positions. As of December 2019, our gross non-lira debt stood at EUR 288 million. Since the beginning of this year, Acibadem has taken active steps to reduce this level further. Today, excluding the European operations, our gross non-lira debt stands at about EUR 92 million. This amount also includes financial levers of about EUR 48 million. As you can see on this slide, Acibadem also maintains FX deposits as part of its natural hedge mechanism. We will continue to explore opportunities to further deleverage into the remaining part of this year and next year. I shall now pass the call back to Kelvin to share the key takeaways and outlook for the group.

Thank you, [indiscernible] and Dilip. To summarize our key takeaways, you can see it here on Slide 22. We are encouraged by our strong performance in Q3, and we remain optimistic of our long-term growth trajectory. In the nearer term, we can expect continued impact from COVID-19 for FY '20, especially if there are further disruptions from subsequent outbreaks and renewed lockdowns. But we will continue to soften this impact by creating new revenue streams, including COVID-19-related services, improving case mix, keeping tight control over costs and maintaining capital discipline. Meanwhile, we will continue to support the governments in the countries where we operate in this fight. Our diversified earnings across 10 markets provides us further resilience. With our strong financial position, operational resilience and continued focus on our Refreshed Strategy, we are well prepared to ride out this dynamic and deliver long-term growth. Thank you, and we are happy to answer your questions.

Thank you, Dr. Loh. We will now take your questions. Just a quick note before we start. We will first take questions from the participants on the conference call before moving to the questions from our webcast participants. [Operator Instructions] With that, operator, please proceed with the Q&A. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] Your first question comes from the line of Shyam Srinivasan from Goldman Sachs.

The first question is on the occupancy for Singapore and Malaysia. They remain at about 50% to 52%. So what is the outlook for, say, Q4 or maybe Q1? Do you foresee this occupancy to improve from hereon? Everywhere else, we have seen like Turkey and all things rebound. India is taking almost 60%. So just want to understand the occupancy trends and the outlook for Singapore and Malaysia.

Shyam, thanks for always joining us. Good to hear from you. So we saw that relatively strong recovery from Q2 going to Q3. Overall, for our markets, there has been continued recovery beyond that. I think it's fair to say that given that Q2 was really the most depressed, obviously, the trajectory was the sharpest going into Q3. But to answer your question, both in Singapore and Malaysia, we continued to see progressive recovery. Malaysia, of course, there are -- currently, as you know, there's the escalated movement control order situation, so there could be some impact. What we are seeing, however, is that the picture is quite different from where things were in the first MCO in Malaysia. So while we -- there might be some impact, but we do not expect it to be like what it was before the first time around. Why is -- in -- sorry. Yes. Go ahead, Shyam.

Yes. So what I was just trying to understand, so occupancy has remained slightly lower relative to anywhere else. But we have seen in Malaysia, revenue intensity improved. Is it a mix of elective procedures coming back? But I think Singapore has not. And I think I read the comment that about foreign patients, but if you can help us understand the mix of revenue that we've seen with these [indiscernible].

Yes. So the Malaysian revenue intensity, as you saw in Q2 and now also in Q3, has increased a lot, and that is really a function of the fact that, really, the sicker patients and the more acute patients are coming, right? So the emergency cases are certainly coming. And the electives, it's fair to say that when you see the occupancy being down, then it is the -- that's, I think, elective that get postponed and really the sickest elective -- sicker elective cases in. So that trend has continued into Q3, and that's why the revenue intensity is high in Malaysia. Now in Singapore, in a sense, that is -- that effect would have been seen as well. But why -- when we compare the previous year, you don't see that same jump up is because you must remember that Singapore has a big foreign patient revenue, right? Today, it's roughly about 25% to 26% of our revenues pre-COVID. And if you take most of that away, the foreign patient revenue intensity tends to be high. So when you take that away, of course, then you have that contra effect or that dilution effect. Does that make sense?

Yes. Yes. Got it, Dr. Kelvin. So would we say it's like close to 0 or like single-digit contribution from foreign patients in Singapore?

Right now, single digit. Single digit.

Single digit. Okay. Got it. Last question, third question, Dr. Kelvin and team, just on EBITDA margins and the cost controls that we have referred to, it's been pretty good, right? Singapore at 25%; Malaysia, very high 20% margin. So I just want to understand how much of this is sustainable. You talked about government relief and aid and stuff, so if you can help us understand what is the operational EBITDA margins and maybe strip off some of these one-off thing, please.

So in Malaysia, really, there's not that much government relief. In Singapore, we can give you a sense of that. So year-to-date for Singapore, it's about [ MYR 115 million ].

Yes, it's about 11%.

11% of EBITDA.

Of EBITDA.

That's on the slide...

Slide 13.

Slide 13.

Yes, Shyam, I think Dr. Loh did mention earlier under the Singapore narrative, he did mention that government reliefs contributed about 11% of the EBITDA for the quarter.

Got it. Got it. And just from a sustainability perspective, what can we -- to support this and look at operational EBITDA, how much can we sustain till next year?

So I mean, the recovery, we can't predict for certainty, but I think it's fair to say that as the reliefs fall off, then we also expect that -- firstly, in Singapore, the recovery has been progressive and consistent, right? So that hasn't changed. And so as the relief goes off, then we'd expect that the -- we have recovered to a large extent, and therefore, our dependency on that will be lesser.

Your next question comes from the line of Amanda Foo from Crédit Suisse.

Dr. Loh, congratulations on the strong results. So just a few [indiscernible] Turkey is already heading towards business as usual. I was wondering from the group perspective, which is the mixed home market that you see heading towards normalization? Because clearly, we're seeing recovery in all the other markets. So which is the mix that you foresee from -- follows?

Thanks, Amanda. Well, as you can see, we have a pretty good recovery in basically all the markets. In fact, for some like Hong Kong, we never had any loss of inpatients at all. We continue to grow right through because the hospital, that's ramping up anyway. Is there anything else that you wanted to understand better?

Yes. So I guess, what I'm trying to [indiscernible] market that would be recovering.

Amanda, I think your line seems to be breaking up a bit. Can you repeat your question again?

Yes, sure. Is this better?

Yes. So far, it's better.

Yes.

We lost you a bit earlier.

So -- Okay. That's fine. Sorry about that. So basically, I guess what I'm trying to get at is, which could be the second market that could be heading towards business as usual, I guess, following the pattern that we've seen in Turkey?

I see. Okay. Yes. So Turkey had strong recovery both in the domestic and of course, because of the opening of foreign travel. That all came back as well. That's why you are indeed right, the closest. Well, kind of hard to say because there are different situations. But really, they're all tracking fairly in the same way. So Singapore, you see a very steady progressive recovery because I guess it's not much of shocks. India actually has seen very strong recovery. Fortis has seen very strong recovery. I would say that in a large part, though, that's because they also see relatively large numbers of COVID-19 patients that has boosted the revenues and earnings. So on the one hand, you could argue that our India operations and Fortis operations are actually coming back pretty close as well. But again, that's because that's driving on a fair bit of COVID-19 work. Malaysia is probably somewhat like Singapore. It's just that Malaysia right now, as we -- right now, it's -- there's a bit of headwinds because of movement control order, and we're hopeful that we get lifted soon and then continuing to grow as well. So I think it's hard to pin down which one will come out in this #2 horse race. But really, they're all -- I'd say they're all tracking in a progressive fashion.

And I have a next question. So I was looking at Singapore's occupancy rate. You're saying that you are seeing a recovery. But if we look closely at the quarter-on-quarter occupancy rate, it has actually fell slightly, fell slightly by about 2%. So I guess, is this the level that we should be expecting going forward should foreign patients continue to be prevented from coming in?

No. So foreign patients actually already have been prevented from coming in, but there has been selected situations where they are allowed to come. So you can see now they contribute to about 6% of revenues, single digit, as we have said before. The drop that you are referring to is really because of, in Q2, actually, Singapore took relatively large numbers of COVID patients, which then disappeared relatively quickly around July period or so. So it's not really a drop in the sense that the elective cases have certainly has grown. It's just that the COVID-19 cases went away for Singapore.

And to add to that, if you look at the domestic patient volume in terms of admissions, they're, if not above, equal to prior year. So the domestic volumes have come back quite strongly.

And I guess my last question will be in regards to Fortis. Yes, you had mentioned that the India operations are benefiting from the COVID-19 work, especially in terms of the inpatient revenue. So could you help us understand a little bit as to why this will be the case? Because I would think that COVID-related services would be more of a social work, so margins would usually be lower in these cases. But why is this case different from -- for India?

So in India, COVID-19 work is actually paid by cash and insurance generally. So it -- I mean, it's certainly -- it's profitable.

So it's more profitable than, I guess, the general blend of cases that you used to treat?

No, no, not necessarily. So what happened in India is that there has been a continued recovery of our non-COVID work, but there has also been a rise of COVID cases in. So when you add the 2 together, you naturally see better performance because, again, hospitals are really a lot fixed cost, right? So the COVID-19 work, for sure, is lower revenue intensity than the non-COVID work. But the point is that there is certainly contribution margin positive by themselves. And then the add-on to it, the recovery of the non-COVID. So jointly, therefore, how shall I say, what you see is a stronger recovery.

And if I can add to that, I guess, if you look at the [indiscernible] over a period of time, the [indiscernible] has really climbed and clearly indicating the fact that the elective volumes are coming back as well. So as Dr. Loh mentioned, one, the COVID volume helps in utilizing some of the costs. And on top of that, the elective volume is coming up. So it helps in 2 ways, really.

Your next question comes from the line of Rachel Tan from DBS Vickers Research.

Congrats. Good to see that the recovery is on track. Probably my first question for me is looking at the situation in Singapore, how soon do you expect borders to be open, especially for the medical provision?

Rachel, good to here from you as always. Well, I wish I know for sure. We all hope it will be open as soon as it can. So we have -- there's really been some moves to start to open up. For example, we have been taking on emergency cases for foreign patients. And I mean, as you know, our largest patient market is Indonesia, so it depends on when those restrictions lift. I wish I knew as well.

Okay. All right. Probably, my second question is, I think you've been doing quite a bit of divestments lately. Just wondering whether you could share with us what's the gain for your Apollo divestments? That [ probably, you'll be booking ] in fourth quarter, right? And whether you could share your plans on further divestments down the road?

Yes. So directionally, I think to explain our strategy again, we have a cluster strategy so that we become more capital-efficient and improve our returns on equity. What that really means is that we try to invest the capital to grow -- to concentrate our growth in metros where we have good concentration or otherwise grow then into areas where there's good concentration. Where it is less, where it is relatively less efficient capital deployment, we may consider divestments and then recycle it accordingly to areas which gives us a higher return of equity in those clusters. So that's overall the plans. And the Kolkata example is just one of them. So are there more divestments that could be coming up? There might be. And certainly, as they come, we will let you know. But we're following this exact same strategy that I just said.

Dr. Loh, could you share which, like, countries or markets that would likely see a lot more noncore assets that you can divest?

We are working on those plans. A bit premature to make announcements as such. And [ some online will ] -- but I think if you look at the strategy that we have, then, it's not really about which -- it's not about getting out one market or another. It's really about the efficiency in each cluster, right? So in other words, what I'm trying to express is that we review even the portfolios within clusters or within countries.

Okay. What about the gains for the Apollo divestment?

Yes. So as I said, so definitely, we -- firstly, to make clear, we are committed to growth in India. And of course, committed growth also in all our home markets. So those gains is capital that we can redeploy to whichever clusters that we then further want to fuel the growth.

Sorry. I'm referring to whether you could share the number with us.

Oh, I see. Okay. Well, it was sold at a sizable profit.

Anyway, Rachel, we are still -- I mean, the transaction is not completed yet. So maybe until we can complete it by next month, I think somewhere mid- to end of next month, and then we'll give you more clarity on that.

Okay. Yes. My last question is probably on the vaccine. I'm just wondering how does the system work. Like does the hospital would have any participation in getting hold of the vaccine? Or is it really -- will be executed from the government level?

I think different markets will have different regulations. The government, of course, will generally want to take control and decide on how certainly our vaccines get into the country and then how that's then distributed out to the people in the country. As a leading health care service provider, of course, we will do everything we can to help in this effort. So far, we haven't heard yet exactly in our country operations how that's going to happen. But we'll see and certainly, try to help in that distribution as we're allowed.

Okay. Understand. Maybe if you say in Singapore, would you know, like it will go through the public hospital first?

We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. Yes, really, we don't know. Of course, what we do know is that we have had many successful private -- public-private collaborations in Singapore on this COVID-19, be it in laboratory testing or even running community care facilities, we took in some patients for treatment. So we'll see.

Your next question comes from Stephanie Cheah from CLSA.

Can you hear me?

Yes, Stephanie.

Okay. Firstly, I just want to confirm the Singapore government assistance that you mentioned earlier, the 11% of EBITDA, that's of third quarter, right, not 9 months?

Third quarter. For the quarter, third quarter, correct.

All right. Yes. Okay. And secondly, on the Malaysia side, when you said -- I mean, you mentioned previously, it won't be as bad as the previous MCO. Are you referring to the inpatient volumes or the cost front, since you have done quite a bit since -- from the last MCO? And I guess, what I'm getting at is trying to understand how things are during this MCO because most people can still move about and if plans restricted in a sense. So just wondering how -- yes.

Yes. So yes, I was referring to the potential effect on volumes, and I was alluding to the fact that it is unlikely to be as big an effect at the first MCO. Personally, I don't think that it'll be anywhere close to that effect. There'll be some effect but certainly not so big.

Thanks, Stephanie. So we have some questions from the webcast. We can take that on at the moment. Okay. So we'll take the first question. With the resurgence of COVID-19 in Malaysia and some of IHH's other markets, how will this affect 4Q and 2021 outlook? I think Dr. Loh has actually answered this question in his earlier remarks. So I think we'll close this question. Next is from [ Samuel ]. Congrats on your recovery. Do you think you could give us some guidance on IHH's role in vaccine administration in the coming months? I think that Dr. Loh also answered earlier, all right? And then we move to the third question from [ Emilia ]. Given the COVID-19 pandemic, could you share your Gleneagles China update expansion time line? Also, any latest update on India for this development. Any guidance in your outlook when IHH could return to pre-COVID-19 levels since the potential vaccine will come to Malaysia -- coming to Malaysia, [ it's, 2021 ].

Okay. There are a couple of questions there. So the first one was regards China. So I just want to say that, firstly, with regards to our hospitals in China, for example, Gleneagles Chengdu, the new hospital, [ demand ] in mature cluster is stand-alone in a completely new metro. China is also in market with huge potential but evolving and just opening up. So what we are doing with that is to keep our start-up costs low. And you will find that actually, all our expansion plans in North Asia, including Gleneagles Hong Kong and in North in China so far, if you add it all up, you'll find that from quarter-to-quarter, we actually have done well with contain the cost as we ramp up. So for example, in Q2 2020, we had a minus MYR 49 million EBITDA. But in Q3 2020, that became minus MYR 15 million, right? In fact, if you compare Q3 2020 at minus MYR 15 million, if you look back to Q3 '19, that was at minus MYR 46 million. So overall, you can see that the whole game plan of -- in China is to put -- enter the market with that beachhead and then continue to grow prudently in those market -- in the market. Hong Kong, of course, was the first [ tower ] now about 3-plus years ago. That has -- is coming of age. And as you can see, currently, that is why our North Asia EBITDA margins have been continuing to improve. On India, so the -- we are facing the judicial system. We are hopeful of the next hearing that is...

Second...

Relatively imminent in December. Any guidance on the outlook when IHH could return to pre-COVID-19 levels since potential vaccine could come? We certainly welcome the news around the vaccine. It will help. Once successful, of course, it will help to open economies, not just for our business, but overall. I don't know. I dare not to predict how fast that will take place. With regards Malaysia, specifically in Malaysia, same questions on Malaysia. My observation is that the steps that are being taken in Malaysia to control the outbreak -- the resurgence of the coronavirus seems relatively effective. I think by all accounts, at least in our business, you can see that our business and the economy is still going on as they take measures of control, and it doesn't allow the public to overwhelm either the people or the economy. So I'm hopeful that Malaysia get past its current MCO situation and then continue to show progressive recovery. Vaccine, yes, who knows? It may come sometime next year. We'll see.

[Operator Instructions] Next follow-up question comes from Rachel Tan from DBS.

I just have one very quick question, whether you could share the Gleneagles Hong Kong EBITDA losses for this quarter.

Rachel, if I can take this on behalf of Dr. Loh. I think you should look at the North Asia EBITDA that's at the back of our deck. I think that should give you a good indication.

Yes.

Under the North Asia.

But it's not under the new anymore, right? It's...

Yes. [ In a way ], it got moved up to North Asia because it's no longer considered new. So I think earlier, Dr. Loh did mention how that loss has narrowed. We mentioned the figure of MYR 15.1 million. Yes, yes, so that gives you the ballpark of what -- how the losses have narrowed significantly for GHK.

[Operator Instructions]

If there are no further questions, we will now conclude IHH Healthcare's Third Quarter and 9 Months 2020 Financial Results Briefing. Thank you for joining us today. If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact me via e-mail at [email protected].

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that does conclude our conference for today. Thank you for participating. You may all disconnect.