Immobiliare Grande Distribuzione SIIQ S.p.A. (IGD) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

[Audio Gap] Now I'll leave the floor to Claudio Albertini, the CEO.

Thank you very much, and good afternoon, everybody. This will probably be the last conference call of 2023. The next call will take place in February 2024 when we will present the full year data. I think you all have the document in front of you that I'm going to illustrate. We have the usual operational highlights and financial and economic highlights. As far as the operational highlights are concerned, we are in continuity with the first 2 quarters of 2023. With indicators on the rise, you can tell, 6.2% in terms of tenant sales; and footfalls in Italy, 5.4%. This is measured on the first 9 months of 2023. Occupancy has remained high, 95.3% in Italy, plus 10 basis points, while in Romania, the market stands at 97.1%. Now on Page 4. As the title suggests, the revenues and EBITDA improve and the cost of debt also increases. Gross rental income stands at EUR 105 million, plus 3.2% over 2022 and like-for-like, the growth is higher, 5%. Net rental income, EUR 88.4 million, plus 5.7% versus 2022 and like-for-like is 8.1%. EBITDA is in excess of EUR 80 million -- EUR 81 million, plus 6.7%. While the funds from operation has a minus sign in front, EUR 44.4 million, minus 11.9%, but that was expected. Back to the operating performance on Page 6, I have mentioned the first 2 figures. I would like to highlight the good performance of our hyper and supermarkets where the growth has been as high as close to 5%. I think it's interesting to dwell on Page 7 where we have subdivided by product categories. Our malls, we have clothing in our malls growing. In general, malls are growing by 6.2%. This is a category that accounts for 48.7%. 6.4% clothing, as I was saying. Good performance also in 2 other categories, we're talking about household goods. And the growth is as high as 7.7%, which is in line with the 2 years after the COVID pandemic. And also the growth of the restaurant systems, the catering activities, which grow more or less in par with household goods at 7%-plus. Good performance also for leisure times and culture. Personal and healthcare is also performing well, while the only negative figure is electronics, which I would like to remind you had exceptional performance during COVID and also in 2022. So this year, those needed to reinforce the growth trends to remain in line with the past couple of years. Now on Page 8, leasing activities. 135 contracts expired in the first 9 months, 6.5% of our total rent at the Group level. And 93 renewals and 42 turnover. There was an average downside by 1.4%. You needed to consider that these rents had already absorbed a growth in the first 9 months over the restaurant sector that was pretty high. Occupancy stood at 95.3% with a 10 basis point increase over the first half of 2023. Collection rate for the first 9 months is slightly higher than 94%, it's in excess of 94%, but we've collected all the rents of 2022. The big event for the quarter and for the year-to-date when it comes to IGD after so many years of hard work was that we inaugurated -- we opened the Officine Storiche, a new iconic destination for shopping and entertainment, a shopping center that recovered an area that had been decommissioned just in the city center of Livorno Leghorn. This mall was the result of a major renovation in the older shipbuilding site in Livorno. Here, you have a few figures. We've already opened a good number of shops to our opening in November. Well, one has opened already the gym, Tonic, while Giochi Preziosi, a toy store will open by the end of the month and Primark is expected to open in the second half of 2024. Some data. Occupancy between the opened stores and the pre-letting is in line with the general figure, 95%. We had an exceptional footfall number for the first 4 days after following the opening, 110,000 people. It's an average-sized city for Italy, 160,000 inhabitants. So pretty often it was the same people coming back, but it's 7 people from Livorno out of 10 that in the first 4 days have visited this mall; not a huge one. We have 27 shops, 27 stores. So it's an interesting result. The footfalls just stabilized in the following days. In the first 45 days since opening, 440,000 people. Leasing activities in Romania on Page 11. 400-plus contracts, these are shorter duration compared to Italy, 288 renewals and 116 turnovers. In this case, there's an upside, so plus 2.28%. Occupancy, as I mentioned, has been -- has increased compared to the first semester, the first half of 2023 by 30 basis points. The collection rate is pretty good, 96%. And also the collection rate for 2022 was 100%. The portfolio keeps evolving. I'd like to remind you that our shopping centers are all based in the most important city centers in the central squares, average-sized cities and towns. Here, you have Buzau with the strong connection with the local community because there has been a public investment on the Central Square. We've also added new brands recently. We have 2 new entries, 3 gyms that opened under this international brand, i.e., StayFitGym and Sinsay. Sinsay is also an international business that has become part of our portfolio in Romania. We keep devoting a lot of attention to ESG. We have 3 slides, which I'll illustrate briefly on the topic. We have a GHG emission reduction targets, which have been defined for Scope 1 and 2 and we are in the process of defining Scope 3. The goal is to obtain the SBTi certification of targets in 2024. At present, our ESG rating granted by 12 agencies and ratings that were unsolicited are all in line, similar to what we scored in 2022. And in addition to that, since 2023, so this year, we have become a GRESB or G-R-E-S-B participant. Also in the course of this year, we were awarded the EPRA awards for our sustainability report for the 9th year in a row for the EPRA sBPR Gold Award. And for the 6th year in row, we have -- we were awarded the EPRA BPR Gold Award. The portfolio is increasingly green. Green certified centers or BREEAM certified centers are as many as 10, 63% of the Italian malls are certified. Photovoltaic plants, there are 11 between Italy and Romania. Bear in mind that there are also 12 systems, 12 plants on the Italian hypermarkets. We produce 3,450 megawatts, which accounts for 6.3% of energy produced out of the total consumed and that benefits also our tenants. And last but not least, we wanted to showcase this pilot project which we had started on ESP. ESP is an important center, one of the largest in the IGD portfolio, the one in Ravenna. And the site will start its journey to become zero carbon emissions with the goal of getting there shortly. Now let me provide more details about the financial results on Page 17. You have the net rental income, net of the direct costs. We stood at EUR 88.4 million as at the end of September, growing from EUR 83.6 million, like-for-like 8.1%. And you see a breakdown between the 3 most important asset classes. The malls grew by 4.7%, hypermarkets by 5.7% and Romania by 6.1%. On Page 18, you see the core business EBITDA, which lands at EUR 81 million, growing by approximately EUR 5 million compared to 2022, driven by the rental income by EUR 4-plus million, other changes of 0.2%. EBITDA margin core business, 72.9% versus 70.7% and then 72.5% versus 75% in terms of EBITDA margin on freehold. Financial management. When we presented the guidance, the guidance was expected to be negative. So we see a lower guidance and the financial income increases EUR 29.2 million because of the higher financial costs of the transactions between 2022 and 2023. This does not include yet the effects of the operation that is bound to be closed on the 14th of November. And a press release will be sent to you with the swap and consent solicitation. The funds from operations. As mentioned in connection with the opening slides, it went down from EUR 50.4 million to EUR 44.4 million despite the growth of the EBITDA by EUR 4.4 million. The financial income is reducing the benefit of this improvement. On Page 21, you see the investment pipeline. For the investment plan 2022, 2024, EUR 82 million in total. As at the 30th of September, so including 2022 and the first 9 months of 2023, we have a EUR 50 million already executed with the EUR 12 million. In the last quarter of this year, we will reach a total of EUR 62 million. So we are pretty well placed compared to the investment plan. In 2024, we still have EUR 20 million to go, of which EUR 9 million are already committed, while EUR 11.5 million we have a certain level of flexibility to realize. On Page 22, PFN loan-to-value. PFN, 31st of December, 2022 and the key financial indicators of the company; loan-to-value, interest cover ratio and the average cost of debt compared to the previous period. So you see, there has been an improvement quarter-by-quarter. As you can see here, 10, 17, 33.1. And then the cash out of EUR 33 million was also factored in, which was paid in May this year. And this leads us to a PFN that is declining despite the fact that we've paid the dividends at EUR 970 million with the loan-to-value indicator that goes up, but that is no surprise. It was already something that we had seen in the first 6 months. So here it goes slightly lower than then 47.2%. The ICR is lower, 2.7%. So we're well above the rupture of our covenants. The breakaway from the covenant and the average cost of debt stands now at just below 3.5%. I made reference to the exchange offer and consent solicitation. We presented this to the market on the 5th of October. And hopefully, we've presented the rationale of this transaction pretty clearly to our bondholders. And hopefully, we've been clear, and so we can receive a positive response. But we'll know on Tuesday next week, the 14th of November. Now after the assembly, which has been convened at 5 PM, we will be sending a press release to you all. And then on Page 24, you see our debt maturity. The 2024 maturities, which are in the dotted lines are coming closer and closer, conditional on the bondholders' acceptance for the EUR 400 million. They are going to be rescheduled to 2027. The bond is a bond that was underwritten by Pricoa, which will come to maturity in the month of November. And thanks to the fact that we've drawn a credit line that we've obtained that we're going to draw soon to close this debt. Net of the cash that will be paid out for those who have accepted it as early birds, things will materialize in 2027. Now this EUR 400 million, the largest chunk is a loan of EUR 215 million with maturity in 2025. We have 2 renewal options in 2026 and 2027. And of course, here we've indicated 2027, the furthest maturity. In the next 2 years, we'll be working in order to refinance in advance this debt stock, especially because it is debt at rates that were decided in the context of 2022 and 2023, which is just eroding headspace from our EBITDA. So I'd like to stop here and I'm here to take your questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is by Simonetta Chiriotti of Mediobanca.

I have a couple of questions for you. My first question has to do with the refinancing operation. I imagine that the news you've sent to us are as much as you can tell us as of today. And I was just willing to make sure that you could not comment any further on how things are going concerning the refinancing. The second question instead has to do with the disposals that you haven't dealt with in this presentation. And here again, I would like to hear from you if there's anything new coming up on this front?

Well, as to your first question, this is as much as we can say, I can confirm that. Unless -- I'll reiterate that this transaction has a very clear rationale and that we are pretty confident that our investors have understood it in order to obtain a positive result and that it was also in the press release and in my statement. When it comes to the disposals, we're working on them. It's a project that's ending. Hopefully, we'll be able to provide good news. In recent weeks, we've heard some interest on the disposals. There's not much I can say other than this. I don't know if Roberto who is following this first-hand has anything to add. I don't think so. Of course, we can't provide news, any information on our negotiations. I can only tell you that we are very committed on our disposals. So we feel that IGD absolutely has to reduce its loan-to-value because it's in a high area. This morning at the Board, we have communicated the IR, the Board report with the main comparables across Europe in our industry. And we know very well that having a high loan-to-value is a problem to us. So the only way to decrease that number is to dispose of assets. We're working on it with much conviction. Although it is a transaction and operation, which in the medium-term will just take away assets from us. But at present, it is absolutely important to go for it also because we wanted to open to the bond market in 2 years to refinance that debt. And if you want to have a palatable rating, and with the right indicators all in the right place, I mean, we need to do that. And this indicator is absolutely not in the best possible position. Now Roberto?

Yes. Well, Simonetta, we're working very hard. I can confirm on disposals. And we're very confident. And hopefully, soon we'll be able to provide good news. But yes, we're working very hard on this front.

And more generally, I understand you cannot give us too many anticipations. But from the point of view of the market, in recent months, have you seen any improvements in terms of liquidity and interest rate position or can you -- or do you confirm that everything will stay the same and it's in the last several months?

The answer is, let's say that as we've all seen on the 30th of September, our transactions, I think things were pretty -- were very limited. Our hope is that we will close at EUR 5.56 billion, which is more or less half of those in 2022 in terms of transactions. The one note that may prove interesting is the generalized decline across all asset classes. While 2020, 2021 and 2022, the reduction had been mostly on the retail asset class, in 2023, it's -- the market is shrinking everywhere because of the high cost of debt. And so it's a problem of cash, cash flow. So this is all we can say, but it's what we're learning about every day because of retail asset class is one that should be reconsidered also in light of yields and returns that are higher than those of other asset classes. This morning, ANSA, the news agency, just released this information. While mass distribution is increasing, the online has almost come to a standstill and -- well, has slowed down remarkably. And that is something that we should pay a lot of attention to also on the investment front because that shows the resilience of this sector. And in the presentation, we've seen that the operating results, the operating performance is absolutely growing by all means. So I do not expect between now and year end to see major transactions. But the work that we have engaged in for 2024 will bring results, especially in our sector. I have this feeling.

The next question is from Giuseppe Grimaldi of BNP Paribas.

I have 2 questions actually. The first is, if you can give us an update on the occupancy in recent months. Is it reasonable to assume that in the last quarter of the year, the improvement will continue? And then also, can you give us more information about the pipeline of investments that are still outstanding? And that you've mentioned, are these renewals of existing supermarkets or is there anything else that it worthwhile being aware of?

Well, as to your first question, I would like to ask Laura Poggi, Leasing Manager to answer. Then the second will be addressed by Roberto, Asset Manager.

As you've seen, the occupancy is improving slowly but steadily. We're working on the key assets, especially on Centro Leonardo in order to improve also the diversification of our offering. So what you see today as slightly slower in terms of vacancies is also the result of the reselling to add product categories that are more in line with the trends. Very soon, we'll be meeting domestic and foreign tenants, and we already have a full agenda. So we see a lot of interest in our portfolio for Italy as well as the portfolio in general. And not just clothing tenants, but also other product categories are calling on us.

When it comes to the investments, we've notified -- we have communicated about the 2 major restyling operations, one in Porto Grande in San Benedetto, which will be reopened on the 23rd of November just before the Black Friday. It was a very important -- a major renovation because we reduced the hypermarket. It went from 8,000 to 4,500 square meters as a sales area and we've added more services with a total restyling inside and outside. And also, there's another restyling in Leonardo Imola, which we had purchased in 2018. And there too, the renovation has taken place, both inside and outside, and it will extend into 2024. We can say also an agreement with Laura, who preceded me, is that we are favoring sell-side investment as well as ESG. In Livorno, you've seen that Primark will open next year. And we are working there in preparation for their opening. And also everything that we have done in Livorno, leisure side and gymside were major investments. However, our idea is to privilege super-attractive brands. Also, if that means that it is necessary to invest in the shelves and pools to make them compatible with the footfalls. We've mentioned it in the 3 slides devoted to ESG. It's very important to us. By year end, we'll finish another photovoltaic plant in Mantua, and these investments were necessary. But at the same time, they will yield advantages immediately, especially in the relations to the -- with the tenants, because as of today, we've created a renewable plant that will help tenants to save 10% to 18% on the energy cost. But most importantly, we'll stop the fluctuations, the swings in the trends because the contract that we signed, we try to grant them fixed prices. And it's evident that these investments can help us and we will favor this kind of investments in 2024 which will be the last year of the industrial plan -- of the business plan.

The next question is from Arianna Terazzi, Intesa Sanpaolo.

I connected a bit late, so maybe I didn't get that information...

It's very hard for us to understand. You're saying from the room. It might be a problem on the line or you're hands-free.

The next question is from the English channel from Alvaro Mata of Trea.

First one is in regards to the new shopping mall that you guys opened in September 18. What will be the incremental annual income in that center? And I have another 2 questions, but I'm happy to ask them later on.

Yes, there has been an increase in income and profitability proportionately to the days and weeks. So we're not at full speed with the rentals, but proportionately to the opening -- since the opening, so from late September, October and November, we've had a pretty good impact from the rentals. It's not clear to me if you also wanted to know by how much.

Yes, I want to know what's the annual income. So let's say, 2024 expectations income from that center...

Over the year, we can assume EUR 200,000 per month. So EUR 700,000 in terms of positive impact in 2023. In 2024, everything will be at full speed. And so we'll have rentals all year round. I hope that answers your question.

Yes. Next question is about the residential units in Porta a Mare. The total number of units is 42. You said in this release that 29 have been already sold, but this is the same number, as you said, in June. So I guess, obviously, the question is you haven't been able to sell any more during the last quarter. And the question is why? And the second question on that, you said in the release that expected cash from now to year end is EUR 7 million. And the question is that corresponds to [indiscernible]?

Could you please reiterate your last question because it wasn't clear at all because of the signal, the quality of the sound. Could you please repeat your last question?

Yes. Okay. So in Porta a Mare, they have 42 residential units and they have sold 29 in June. On the last conference call, they said, we had sold 29 as well, so the same number as today. So they haven't been able to sell any more flats. I wonder why? And then in regards to that, they say that they expect to receive EUR 7 million from now until year end? And the question is what that EUR 7 million corresponds to?

Alvaro, this is Raffaele Nardi speaking. That's right. So also as at the 30th of September, there are only 29 units sold. One will be sold between now and year end. And so the total of residential areas sold at the Officine Storiche will be 30 plus 2 where we have an irrevocable preliminary agreement. And they -- the final deed will be signed at the beginning of 2024. So the balance, i.e., 10 units would like to sell, at least in part -- if possible, all of them, but at least in part in 2024. Of course, there has been a slowdown, as you may have noticed in general across the real estate market, especially when it comes to residential units. And also this project in Livorno started out very well, because even before we had finished the renovation, we had already sold many units on paper only. With the increase in loan rates -- in loan interest rates, there was a slowdown. So the transactions were not -- not many transactions were completed this year. So outstanding are 10 units out of 42, plus the 33 of Piazza Mazzini. So you can say that all in all, IGD has sold all the residential units it had built in the Livorno area. When it comes to the EUR 7 million, so it's the same figure as we had presented to the market in the previous quarters, precisely because we already had revocable purchase offers for these units. And therefore, the estimate of the previous month is still confirmed. So the collection -- amount collected for IGD is approximately EUR 7 million for 2023.

The EUR 7 million is still due to be received before year end?

This is Albertini. Let me add that we are above 90% of the sales. As Raffaele said, 73 -- the units, residential units in Mazzini, plus 42 here. So in total, 115 residential units, 73 plus 32 were sold. So 105 over 115. So we're well above 90% of the units sold. The reason for the slowdown were mentioned by Raffaele in recent months. These days, mortgage loans, especially for retail customers, has become more costly and difficult too.

No, I hear you on that. Now the question is, you haven't answered yet is the EUR 7 million is still due to be received before year end?

It's not to year end, it's a total for 2023, the ones that we have signed the agreements for in the course of 2023.

Okay. Next question is, assuming the exchange offer to the bondholders that we will know the results next week, assuming that goes ahead, have the company done the calculation of what the ICR will be after that? And if you can remind me as well what's the covenant on ICR?

Alvaro, this is Andrea speaking. When it comes to the covenant on the ICR, the level on all the most recent transactions is 1.7% and it's calculated based on the cash on the treasury. When it comes to the ICR at year end, we will not be in a very comfortable position, we'll still be around 2.7. So it's a lot higher. Obviously, it will go down in 2024 and then it will recover partially in 2025.

I mean, once -- if the exchange offer goes ahead, have they done the calculation of what the impact on the ICR would be with the new coupon?

So I can confirm what I said before, the ICR will be around 2.7. Do also remember the structure of the exchange transactions. We have a growing coupon, a step-up coupon. So the year 1, the impact on the ICR will be lower. And we structured it in this way, in order to safeguard the covenant, which would appear in the one study would be appropriate to protect.

That's fine. But I mean, that doesn't really answer the question. I mean the ICR is 2.7 now. Once the coupon goes from [ 218 ] now to 5% in a few months, that's going to impact the ICR. So it's not going to be 2.7, but okay, if you don't want to answer. That's fine. Next question is, last conference call, they gave FFO outlook and that was EUR 54 million, EUR 55 million for the year. I don't know if you have given any guidance on FFO.

Well, you mentioned the covenant. So I spoke about the -- I also told you that by the 31st of December, 2024, it will be lower. So we expect it to be somewhere in the area of 2.1 and 2.2. Just remember that it is the coupon that is paid in 2022 because we'll go by treasury and not by competence. Does that answer your question now?

More or less. Did you catch my last question about FFO?

No. And please speak closer to the microphone because your sound is not good at all.

FFO outlook for the year?

Can you repeat your question, please?

FFO, cash flow outlook for the year.

Since the sound is not good, Alvaro, please call us back after the conference or in the coming days, we are ready to provide all the necessary answers because we can't hear you well.

The next question from the Italian channel will be asked by Arianna Terazzi of Intesa Sanpaolo.

Let me try again. Hopefully, you can hear me now. Can you?

Well, there's a lot of echo, but less let's try.

Okay. I connected a bit late, so you may have dealt with this subject, but I didn't hear that. Your view on the risk that certain retailers that are most attractive may ask for a reduction of their rentals to keep their costs down. Have you pondered this possibility? Have you considered that it might be a possibility?

Well, we didn't really get all the questions. Okay, you're talking about discounts. Well, we are pretty flexible with our discounts and so we use that. We've used it in 2023 with an eye to the growth in terms of inflation, but that did not prevent us from growing in terms of rents. As I told you during the presentation, our leasing division is taking care of that on an everyday basis.

But let me add this, Claudio. By next year, we are thinking of reducing the temporary production compared to 2023 because the fact that we expected that the ISTAT Index that the inflation will be lower, will make it possible for us to reduce the temporary discounts. Hopefully, that answers your question? So our view is safer than in 2023 when we have taken more specific action in order to avoid the full impact of inflation and that was done on a one-to-one basis. In 2024, we expect the situation to improve from this point of view.

The next question is from the English channel by Michael [indiscernible] of BNP.

Could you talk more about the ICR? So you said you're guiding it to around 2.1, 2.2 in year end '24 and then you're saying you're expecting it to increase afterwards. What level of disposals are you factoring into that? And then the other thing too is that when you talked about disposals, you said we've heard of some interest, we're working on it with much conviction. Is there anything which has changed over the last for, say, 3, 4 years and you've been trying to make disposals which makes you think that you could be more bullish or is it basically -- you still find yourselves still trying to eager to sell, but just not able to connect?

As far as the ICR levels, I mentioned before, which again, were calculated by cash -- by treasury because of the covenants which are higher than those that we normally indicate in our communication periodically. They are calculated with an equal PFN. So including the exchange operation, if it comes to an end positively, we will not consider at all the disposals for the time being. When it becomes available, we'll give you the new forecast, which will be generally, we expect a positive.

So I'm just really confused then. So the new one which you're going to have is going to have a higher coupon in 2025 versus 2024. So what makes you think that the ICR will go down in the -- as time goes on rather than the other way around? What are we -- what are you assuming behind that?

It is true. It's a step up. It's a growing coupon. And particularly, if you had to look at the memorandum, it will be 550 on year 1 and then 625 in 2025. And over that time period, we assume that our EBITDA will also increase. So the ICR is slightly on the improved side.

Okay. And then most of your ICR covenants is 1.7x, right, on your bank debt?

Sorry, can you repeat your question because it wasn't clear...

Most of your ICR covenants, are they -- it's 1.7x on your bank debt.

The minimum covenant in our loans is 1.7x, right.

What's the new interest rate on the loan, which you're doing, the EUR 100 million?

Sorry, they were speaking at the same time.

Sure. On your EUR 100 million loan, which you've just done the private placement, what's the interest rate on that?

Sorry, what was the EUR 100 million you were referring to?

On your private placements, so Slide 24.

The private placement will come to maturity on the 11th of January, 2024. And as our CEO was saying before, we are just now taking action. We are going to draw the facility that we underwrote in May to close that loan. So in 2024, that is not going to cause us any charges or costs whatsoever.

So the new loans replace it? Have you -- do you have any interest rate or do you have any terms on that?

Yes. That loan will be of around 7% -- will be at around 7%.

Okay. And then so when you talked about you've heard some interest from disposals and you're working with much conviction, I don't really know how to interpret that. Are we actually -- are you seeing any increased level of confidence from being able to execute on the total...

We haven't considered any disposals in the -- at the levels that I have mentioned now. So that doesn't factor in the disposals.

So is it just the bid offer? So as to why it need to be interested? What's -- basically just some idea of like where you are on disposal plans? Is this just one way you're hoping to sell, but nothing is really in active discussions? Just a little bit more would be helpful.

Listen, Roberto Zoia, our Asset Manager has already answered on this. So we have a work in progress project. We are not in a position as of today to provide any additional information. Hopefully, we'll be able to tell you more in the next conference call or before then if we go for any transactions for which we will be committed and obligated to issue a press release. We're fully committed and engaged in our disposals, but we can't say more than that.

The next question will be from [indiscernible] from Barclays.

So my question is regarding the refinancing. So what's the back-up plan if the exchange offer and the consent solicitation process was to not go as intended or you think there is no need to think about the back-up plan?

There's always a back-up plan or maybe 2 or 3 in every operations and transactions that we go for. As of today, we're quite confident that the transaction will be welcomed and we'll know soon, we'll learn soon because it's going to bring to bear on November the 14. It's the 8th today of November. So after 5:00 PM, we will provide the results of the bondholders assembly. As of today, I can only say that we feel that our bondholders have understood the rationale of this transaction, and that accordingly, they will accept our proposal. We do have a back-up plan, but I can't reveal it now.

[Operator Instructions] Mr. Albertini, there are no questions in the queue.

Very well. Thank you. As I said at the beginning, the next conference call will take place in late February when we're going to present the full year data. And that's it. If there are any extraordinary one-off transactions for which it will be necessary to issue a press release, you will find that on our website. In any case, next Tuesday night there will be a press release communicating notifying the result of the bondholders assembly. Thank you very much for listening also on behalf of the management with me.

This is the Chorus Call operator. The conference is over. You can disconnect your devices.