Implenia AG (IMPN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

February 28, 2024

SIX Swiss Exchange CH Industrials Construction and Engineering earnings 46 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

Silvan Merki

executive
#1

Hello and welcome to the analyst and media conference of Implenia's annual results and the sustainability report 2023 which was published at the same time. We're delighted to once again present our annual results here in [indiscernible] and also welcome those present in the live stream of the presentation. My name is Silvan Merki. I am the Chief Communications Officer, and I have the honor of accompanying you throughout this event today. Our presentation will be held in German. You can also select the English translation in the stream. You can then ask your questions here in the room or in the live stream chat in German or in English. Before we start, I would like to draw your attention to the disclaimer shown here. We will present today as follows, first we will see the business update on the annual results from our CEO, André Wyss. Our CFO, Stefan Baumgärtner will then take you through the financial figures. André Wyss will then give you an outlook on the strategy and the market and we will be happy to answer your questions afterwards. And now I would like to hand over to André Wyss for the first part. André, the floor is yours.

André Wyss

executive
#2

Thank you, Silvan. Hello everybody. 2023 was another successful year. The group achieved its target and is on course for sustainable profitable growth. This emphasizes that we are excellently positioned with our strong team and our comprehensive integrated range of services. We are, therefore, once again setting ourselves a higher operating target for 2024. And now to the details. I will comment on the currency adjusted results in Swiss francs and you will find these figures highlighted in dark yellow. We have at CHF 7.3 billion, the group's order backlog remains at a high level, and it's a very good quality. We have significantly increased sales to CHF 3.7 billion and we have achieved a group EBIT of CHF 127 million. The result is not directly comparable to the previous year due to the above average income in the real estate division. The group improved its equity ratio from 17.5% to 20%. The group result is at a record level of CHF 142 million. We also have a solid free cash flow that was generated and we therefore achieved all of our targets for the year 2023, the financial year. With a comprehensive range of services, our divisions offer specialized expertise for large and complex real estate and infrastructure projects. These range from planning to realization, all the way to management. I will now explain the results of the individual divisions. Real Estate achieved a good EBIT of CHF 40 million despite a market-related valuation adjustment from the investment in Ina Invest. We have continuously developed our attractive property portfolio with new investments and some sales. The carrying amount increased slightly as a result The market value has fallen due to the sale of a long-term development project and valuation adjustments as well. And we will continue to invest in our property portfolio in the future. Real Estate is currently planning and realizing several pioneering complex site developments. Former industrial and commercial sites are being transformed into sustainable urban neighborhoods with a high quality of life. For example, the Bredella site in Pratteln or in the region of Baar or Tivoli in Neuchâtel, we contribute our expertise along the entire value chain. As expected, the order backlog for Buildings is lower, namely at CHF 2.6 billion. The reason for this is the strategic focus on profitable projects, a correspondingly selective choice of projects and the challenging market environment. The division increased sales to around CHF 1.9 billion and further improved EBIT to over CHF 43 million. So being involved in early project phases and working together as partners helped Buildings to create added value for our customers. The integration of Wincasa was successfully completed on schedule and synergies have been realized. And Wincasa has already made a net EBIT contribution of CHF 7 million. Together, we are continuing to work on an attractive offer for our customers. Our specialization proves it worth. For example, the new buildings of the Cantonal hospitals in Baden, Aarau and Lucerne and the laboratory building for the Department of Biomedicine at the University of Basel are making good progress. These projects are planned and realized from the offset using the latest BIM and lean construction methods. Civil Engineering had a successful year. The order backlog was further increased to a record high of around CHF 4.5 billion with a focus on profitable and complex infrastructure projects. Sales is slightly above the previous year. And thanks to the good quality of the order backlog, EBIT increased significantly to CHF 41 million. Many years of experience and extensive expertise in large and complex infrastructure projects position the division optimally in the market. Implenia is the only company involved in the construction of all 4 current transalpine routes. These include the Gotthard, Brenner, Semmering and Lyon-Turin. These are technical masterpieces that confirm our experience and expertise in large complex infrastructure projects. So despite continuous portfolio optimization, the Specialties division was able to significantly increase the order backlog and the sales remained at the previous year's level. EBIT shows significant growth to around CHF 8 million. The division will further sharpen and expand its consulting, planning and engineering areas. For example, Implenia Fassadentechnik or facade technique is creating a high-quality, complex facade for the new administrative building of the German Bundestag in Berlin. Expertise, know-how in sustainable real estate and infrastructure is increasingly in demand from our customers, especially for large and complex projects. The relevant ESG ratings once again confirm our leading position in the construction industry. For further highlights to this topic, please refer to the sustainability report. Before I hand over to Stefan for the financial update, you will get a brief insight in the current topics and projects in our 4 divisions via this video. [Presentation]

Stefan Baumgärtner

executive
#3

So hello, everyone. I will begin the finance update by mentioning the foreign currency effects. Order backlog sales, EBIT and the equity ratio were influenced by currency translation effects in the financial year 2023. One of the main drivers was the appreciation of the Swiss franc against the euro and against the Norwegian krone and the Swedish krona. The group reported order backlog totaled CHF 7 billion. Adjusted for currency effects, we were able to increase this by 1% compared to the previous year, with foreign currency adjusted sales of CHF 3.7 billion, we achieved an increase of 5% compared to the previous year. The reported figure was CHF 3.6 billion. The group achieved a reported EBIT of CHF 122.6 million, adjusted for currency effects of around CHF 127 million. We were able to increase the equity ratio to 19.8% or 20% adjusted for currency effects. There were hardly any transaction effects due to natural hedging. The income statement shows the reported results, including the foreign currency effects. A strong EBIT of CHF 122.6 million was achieved through the profitable business of all divisions. In relation to sales of CHF 3.6 billion, this results in an EBIT margin of 3.4%. There was an extraordinary positive tax expense of CHF 30.6 million. This resulted mainly from the capitalization of loss carryforwards. At around CHF 142 million, the group result is at a record level, thanks to a strong operating performance, capitalization of losses carried forward and the optimization of financial requirements. Excluding the payment of the first tranche of the Wincasa purchase price totaling CHF 100 million, the free cash flow totaled around CHF 87 million. In the second half of 2023, we generated a positive free cash flow of just slightly under CHF 300 million, although fewer advanced payments were made due to the high interest rates. Cash and cash equivalents and free cash flow were influenced by special effects totaling CHF 154.3 million. These special effects primarily include the first installment of the Wincasa purchase price and the repayment of a promissory note. Our goal remains to generate a sustainably positive free cash flow. Cash and cash equivalents at the end of December totaled CHF 478.8 million. Goodwill and right-of-use assets from leases and intangible assets increased as a result of the acquisition of Wincasa goodwill from the acquisition of Wincasa based on the purchase price allocation amounts to around CHF 99 million. The PPA amortization amounts to CHF 3.1 million per year. The balance sheet total excluding Wincasa, slightly below the previous year, and the asset-light strategy has been consistently pursued. The second payment of the Wincasa purchase price, which was still outstanding at the end of 2023 and has now been made, led to an increase in current liabilities. In addition, a bond was reclassified from noncurrent to current liabilities due to its maturity in October 2024. So noncurrent liabilities increased compared to the same period of the previous year, mainly due to deferred tax liabilities. Equity totaled per end of 2023, CHF 576 million, which represents an improvement of 19%. This increase in equity amounts to around CHF 93 million and underlines the improved profitability. We have continuously increased the equity ratio to 19.8%, adjusted for currency effects, to 20%. This is almost a doubling of our own resources within the last 3 years. And this clearly shows that Implenia is also financially on track for sustainable profitable growth. The Board of Directors wants the shareholders to participate in the increasing success of the company. And it will, therefore, propose to the Annual General Meeting on the 26th of March to distribute a dividend of CHF 0.60 per share. This represents an increase of 50% on the previous year and a dividend yield of 2%. The Board of Directors assumes that Implenia will continue to pay dividends in the future. For the year 2024, we have set ourselves a higher operating target with an EBIT of approximately CHF 130 million based on the strong operating business in a challenging market environment. In the midterm, we are still aiming for an EBIT margin of over 4.5% and an equity ratio of 25%. And with that, I would like to hand back to André for the strategy and market outlook.

André Wyss

executive
#4

Thank you, Stefan. The mega trends of population growth, urbanization and the energy transition are driving demand for large property projects in urban locations and complex infrastructure projects. Implenia's range of services and the know-how expertise are geared precisely towards making the best possible contribution to these positive mega trends and opportunities. The current macroeconomic environment remains challenging in certain sectors, in particular, due to higher financing costs as well as construction inflation. The building construction market is developing slightly positively in Switzerland. In Germany, the growth rate in this area is negative. Our strategic positioning is paying off as we are less affected by the sharp decline in demand for smaller residential developments. We see positive growth forecast for the Civil Engineering division in all of our geographical markets. In the Fit For Growth phase, we are consistently pursuing our 4 strategic priorities. Today, I will focus on the 2 priorities of portfolio and profitable growth. By expanding our portfolio along the value chain, we are integrating new high-margin business areas with low capital commitments. The acquisition of Wincasa is a good example of such forward integration. With a view to sector-oriented specialization, as, for example, in the areas of health or research, mobility and energy, we are constantly developing. This applies to both organic growth and acquisitions, such as the BAM Switzerland for the health care sector, 3 years ago or 3 years back. Through this specialization, we are increasingly winning projects based on our expertise and experience and less on price. This enables us to further increase profitability. In Germany and Switzerland, we offer a fully integrated range of services. We are also active in other markets such as tunneling associated infrastructure projects. This portfolio makes it possible to balance our market fluctuations and has proven to be very successful. Our order backlog is of high quality, thanks to the continuous and strict application of value assurance. Project risks and opportunities can be recognized and mitigated at an early stage during the entire project term through this value assurance. This enables us to continuously improve our project margins. The construction industry still has many opportunities to improve business operations. We are consistently driving forward operational excellence in these areas in order to further increase our effectiveness and efficiency. The strategic orientations outlined above come together in our integrated range of services. We create unique added value for our customers through close cooperation between the business divisions and expertise along the entire life cycle of properties and infrastructure. Our integrated model has also proven to be resilient in the current volatile market environment. We strive for a sustainable increase in profitability and through a combination of organic and inorganic growth, flanked by an asset-light strategy, the group is tapping into high-margin business areas. We are, therefore, ideally positioned to increase our profitability to the medium-term EBIT market -- EBIT margin target of over 4.5%. Implenia achieved the target for 2023, this emphasizes that we are excellently positioned with our strong team and our range of projects and services. Thank you for your attention. And now I will hand over to Silvan for the Q&A session.

Silvan Merki

executive
#5

Thank you very much, André. Yes, you saw it here in the video, our great tunnels and hospitals and dams are built outside. And well, we can't just bring them here now, can we? We would be delighted to show you on site what our experts are enthusiastically committed to every day. We invite you to visit one of our highlight projects, the Aarau Cantonal Hospital, the second tube of the Gotthard Road Tunnel or even the Grimsel dam. Following this event, you will receive an e-mail with the opportunity to register for visits. On the 26th of March, our Annual General Meeting will take place, and we will present our half year results on the 21st of August. If you have any questions following this event, please do not hesitate to get in touch with us via the usual contact channels. We are now looking forward to answering the first question. First here in the room, and then we will go to the questions that have been entered via the chat or that have come in via the telephone line. So André and Stefan, would you please join me here on the stage. Very well. Thank you. So to who may I hand over to microphone for first question?

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#6

Thank you very much. The first question regarding the Buildings division. So excluding the Wincasa and the CHF 7 million, margin is, as far as I understand, has been quite -- or rather flat. So what is the continuous development over the next years regarding the margin profile, if you exclude Wincasa.

André Wyss

executive
#7

So the division over the past semester has continued to improve and that was the case this year, not only in the past years. And so we presume that Buildings will continue to develop and improve positively, but don't expect any great jumps because we were already at a very high level in the past year. So -- but we can continue to expand this in a very positive manner.

Silvan Merki

executive
#8

Thank you very much. To whom I hand over the...

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#9

Another question is regarding the free cash flow, I was wondering, you had a very positive effect because the payables have increased and do you have to presume or expect normalization and cash on track then for 2024?

André Wyss

executive
#10

Stefan?

Stefan Baumgärtner

executive
#11

Thank you very much for this question. Well, it's a normalized fluctuation within the months and the quarter. So it's not an extraordinary high situation. And according to the cycles, it will continue then to develop, to expand.

Silvan Merki

executive
#12

Have we answered the question? Thank you very much. Please don't forget to mention your name and from which organization or for which your organization work. So microphone to the person here at the front.

Christian Arnold

analyst
#13

Yes. Hello, Mr. Arnold from Stifel. Two questions on my behalf [Technical Difficulty] so the second question regarding the profitability or the profit. We have benefited then from the taxes. Will there be any more positive effects that can be expected in 2024 or is it over?

André Wyss

executive
#14

Thank you very much for the 2 questions. I will answer the first and Stefan, you can take over the second one. So with the precalculated margin in the order backlog, we were able to increase over the years and it sort of flattened, but that was to be expected. And now what we are doing with the realized margin that is actually more important in the end, we're trying to bring it to the same level as the precalculated margin, and we have -- we were able to do so in the past years and this explains our improved profitability and -- but we would like to get closer. And so I believe that we will also be able to do that with our strategy of 4.5%.

Stefan Baumgärtner

executive
#15

And so taxes for Implenia is just as important for Implenia as for other groups. So we need the financial instruments. And so for the year 2023, we had these loss carried forwards. And no, we cannot presume that there will be others of this type because we have dissolved the reserves, and we have booked the capitalization. So we presume that there will be a normalization of the tax expenses in 2024.

Silvan Merki

executive
#16

Thank you very much for answering this question. To whom may I hand over the microphone here in the audience? Is it possible -- it's also possible then to enter your questions in the chat window or you can also just make a phone call and it will be registered or entered in the chat. So at the back of the room?

Tommaso Operto

analyst
#17

Tommaso Operto of UBS. Just to mention my name. So another question to come back to the Buildings division. So this development of margin, so what does it depend on? Is it just mainly developed because of the smart environment that has been improved? Or do you hold the string, so to say, or the reins and are there certain factors that you can influence?

André Wyss

executive
#18

So very good question. Thank you. So it doesn't apply only to Buildings, but for all divisions. There are several aspects that need to take into consideration. So usually, it's in our own hands. So the market environment also plays a role, a major role, but let's say, the negative figures that we have with residential construction, we're not really let's say, impacted by that. So first of all, it's always a question of productivity. So we have more lean and more BIM in the realization of our projects from the beginning to the end. And so that's one thing. So the more productive the more efficient we become, the higher the margin will be. And the second point is a strategic nature, specialization. If you do a project once, you commit a lot of errors. If you do it 2 times, the same project 2 times, you commit less errors and the more projects you have, well, then you reduce the errors to the strict minimum, to 0 practically. And so you have then the advantage of generating more profit. And then the third point is also competitiveness or competition. And so the one who has the lowest price is the one who gets the tender. Well, then the margin isn't very high. And if you have a specialization, very high complex projects where competition is much smaller. So there are a lot of factors that play a role here.

Silvan Merki

executive
#19

Thank you very much. To whom may I pass over...

Torsten Sauter

analyst
#20

Kepler Cheuvreux, Torsten Sauter. So I'll start with the first question, Wincasa. Wincasa has exposed to Credit Suisse and brick-and-mortar shopping centers. How is the market environment influence there?

André Wyss

executive
#21

Also a very good question, Mr. Sauter. Thank you. So the proximity to Credit Suisse is not unknown, but you just have to imagine that it's not to the bank that we have this proximity but to the investments made. So we are very well positioned with Wincasa. We have a very vast, let's say, foundation. If you look at the profit of Wincasa is not that different from ours, and they have many more complex objects. And so they are positioned in a similar way as we are and we benefit from each other. We can use their know-how in the planning of our objects. We also, in turn, can help then, Wincasa with our expertise. So we see great potential here. And during the first year, this wasn't really manifested but Wincasa was able then to generate more profit than expected. And now with the coming synergies and that we see in 2027 and until from here to 10 years, we should have then the results that we expect. So we are very optimistic. So as long as there are objects and there is a contract, there's no problem how they are used. Is that correct? I'm not quite sure I understood your question correctly.

Torsten Sauter

analyst
#22

So I was talking about Credit Suisse, who has a portfolio as the -- are they going to have problems, let's say, reuse of their own objects and how is that going to impact Wincasa?

André Wyss

executive
#23

And I believe it won't impact Wincasa -- yes, we could say that. It depends what is going to happen with that object but there are newer objects. And you can imagine that Wincasa also has our administer's objects that we construct, that we build. And so we're actually going to open the market. And so for certain customers, perhaps there will be objects that will then be eliminated. But that's absolutely normal. But basically, it doesn't really impact Wincasa directly because who is going to use this object doesn't really play such a role. And then the change of one -- let's say, administer to the other one. So you just have to be better at what you do and do things better than the others. And especially for these large-scale objects, will they rely on a good quality.

Torsten Sauter

analyst
#24

I have another question regarding Ina Invest. Two days ago or was it yesterday, there was news, very significant news. Could you tell us something about it? So what does Implenia want to do at the strategic level?

André Wyss

executive
#25

So you're talking about the merger of Ina Invest and the holding. So originally, that's what we had set out because at the time, it was the correct solution from different point of views. And now the time has come where we said we had to merge the two. And we think that that's not going to have a direct impact on Implenia. Ina Invest will continue to be strengthened. And if it strengthens, Ina Invest also strengthens Implenia. But at the moment, directly, there is no direct impact. And it's also covered by us.

Silvan Merki

executive
#26

So thank you very much for this question. Are there other questions here in the audience? Yes, [indiscernible].

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#27

So [indiscernible]. There were news regarding Implenia that they are also going to be committed in a NEST if I understood correctly. So what is actually the goal of this commitment? I think it was mentioned by [indiscernible].

André Wyss

executive
#28

It has to do with innovation and with sustainability, so beyond 0 actually. So it's a question of, let's say, inventing materials that are much more neutral from the CO2 emissions impact. So we work with Empa together, and we work on other topics with Empa. We always found it very interesting. And so what we're trying to do now is to have more materials that are CO2 neutral. So in terms of sustainability.

Silvan Merki

executive
#29

So I would like to include -- I believe this -- another person has a question here. Yes, please.

Holger Frisch

analyst
#30

Holger Frisch, Zürcher Kantonalbank. I would also have a question regarding Ina Invest and there was dividend that had been proposed for Implenia and then it was then changed or transferred to a loan, I think. And so can you tell us something about the equity ratio conversion. Just does that relate to the equity ratio that has been strengthened and how that -- how is that to be understood?

Stefan Baumgärtner

executive
#31

Well, that's a question for Ina Invest but from my point of view, it has absolutely no influence on our equity ratio of Implenia. Absolutely none, zero.

Silvan Merki

executive
#32

UBS, once again at the back of the room.

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#33

Regarding the guidance, this CHF 130 million EBIT that you are aiming for. So is this due to the increase of prices in some kind of specialties that you mentioned or are there also savings measures that you're aiming?

André Wyss

executive
#34

So in terms of costs, we are a lean organization. We are very well positioned in the production, and we are also endeavoring more productivity with lean and BIM. So all this digitalization, industrialization of our construction industry, we want to be the leaders in this area. That's one point. And then we continue to improve or make improvements in all divisions, which is something we have proven over the 3 years. We've proven that it is feasible. And also Wincasa will play a certain role. So there are various components that play a role here, but you can expect us to continue to improve throughout all divisions. And so of course, through perhaps one or the other division will have certain difficulties or challenges depending then on the market situation, that will be compensated by the others, but I must say that we were able to improve them throughout all divisions in a continuous manner throughout the year. So does that answer your question?

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#35

Almost. So if I include Wincasa with the -- to the entire year, so that means normal marginal improvement for the business, doesn't it?

André Wyss

executive
#36

Well, you can present -- if we do a guidance, we want to fulfill that guidance. And so that is something we have done all the time over the 3 years, and we were surprised positively because we have been above the average throughout the years. So when we have a guidance, we want to exceed that actually and not just fulfill it. That is our ambition.

Silvan Merki

executive
#37

So Christian here in the front, Stifel.

Christian Arnold

analyst
#38

Yes, perhaps dumb question or a more philosophical question. I see that you are the only company in all transalpine projects, and you have a unique know-how and at the end of the day, for infrastructure, you have an EBIT margin of 2%. Well, actually, one could think that you probably have more potential. I mean, there should be more extracted. It's not something new. But every time, I'm always surprised that you don't have -- that you haven't generated a higher EBIT margin. Why?

André Wyss

executive
#39

Well, that is a good question. And we see it the same way you do, Arnold. We also believe that the margins in this area are still too small but we believe that we can continue then to progress. We will then -- a more with Specialties. And we believe that in the future, the know-how and the quality will be much more important than the disclosed prices or the prices. But when the tender says, the price is 100%. Well, we have the quality arguments that unfortunately don't seem to have any effect. And so you have to pay the price. There's always a price that is offered and then there's a realized price. And then in these infrastructure projects, the end price is often much higher than the offered price. And so a lot of countries are changing this, especially in the Nordic countries such as Sweden and Norwegia -- Norway. And they are -- these qualities and these other criteria are much higher than the prices. What is the experience? What does the project leader look like, for example? And so you can also win with a higher price but as long as the tender is always with a price of 100%, it doesn't matter how good you are, you always lose. But we see. We notice this tenders, and that's why we're going to the specialization. For private tenders, that's a different culture, we're talking about public tenders.

Silvan Merki

executive
#40

Thank you very much for your question and the answer. So I would like to include one of the chat questions. One question from [indiscernible] from AWP Finanznachrichten. Hello. Does [ Cigna tobacco ] have an impact on your business and are there opportunities for Implenia or is that going to affect the prices in the market, for example.

André Wyss

executive
#41

So first of all, it has no impact on Implenia. We don't have skin or any skin in the game, but whether that will have a positive effect in the future, I am unable to say at the moment, but we will certainly not take over any projects if they -- if we are certain they cannot be financed. So we don't have any kind of exposure. If we do, then a positive one, but it will have to continue then to develop as described before, but we don't presume that, that will happen.

Silvan Merki

executive
#42

Another question from [indiscernible] large tunnels coming to an end in full year '24.

André Wyss

executive
#43

There are a few tunnels that are coming to an end as the Gotthard tunnel, for example, Semmering is also coming towards its conclusion, but the others are being added. So I mean, you can see it in the order backlog, it's growing continuously very nicely.

Silvan Merki

executive
#44

Another question from [indiscernible] from AWP Finanznachrichten. According to the ESG report, in the past year, you had a higher CO2 emission per ton. So how do you explain this?

André Wyss

executive
#45

It especially depends on the project that you taking care of, for example, if you have a tunnel borers then the CO2 emissions are higher in the tunnel business. So we will show more transparency and show where the effects are. So our aim is to reduce the CO2 emissions per unit, but that has to do with the project portfolio.

Silvan Merki

executive
#46

Thank you very much. It's still possible to continue to ask questions here in the audience. You have a question, I believe?

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#47

Yes, I have a question regarding the Civil Engineering division. You said that it didn't look too positive for all markets. What does that mean for Implenia's activities? So what do you foresee for 2024?

André Wyss

executive
#48

I don't know. I don't recall where we said that. But the markets are very good. Yes, in Civil Engineering, the markets are all significantly positive. We -- and we also believe that, that will continue to manifest. So in the markets where we are active, we see a concrete growth in the coming years. And so perhaps there was some kind of misunderstanding. But no, no, everything is on track, everything is positive.

Silvan Merki

executive
#49

Any more questions from the audience? We have another hand raise here. Yes, here in the front.

Unknown Analyst

analyst
#50

[indiscernible] I have a question regarding Specialties, Buildings. So how -- is there -- how do you limit then the projects? What is a Specialty and what is the Civil Engineering project.

André Wyss

executive
#51

So if you have, for example, a building, you have a tender. That tender is also made to subcontractors. And in most cases, Specialties would be, for example, a subcontractor then for the Buildings or it could also be a subcontractor for Civil Engineering. So you cannot say that a project is completely to you or a total contract. So you can have projects in both areas. And usually, if you have something that is made with wood or you have a building technology, then it will be Buildings and Civil Engineering is clear. But in most cases, you're talking about subcontractors of a general contractor or a total contractor. And the development is really so that they continue to improve in their specialties. It's very asset light. These are engineers, planners, who go about these activities, and that has a higher margin. And we want to continue to push that.

Silvan Merki

executive
#52

Thank you very much. You have the possibility to -- we have the possibility to answer perhaps 1 or 2 more questions. Christian in the front, please.

Christian Arnold

analyst
#53

Yes. Regarding the dividends, you are going to raise it to 50%? What is this based on? Do you have a payout ratio target for example?

André Wyss

executive
#54

We don't have a target for the dividend, but we just said that we want to pay the dividends as the activities of business is improving positively, then we also want to pay the dividend. So we have an EBIT development or EBIT margin development that is continuous, is positive, which means that the dividends paid will be higher also even though there will be a certain return because you don't have the deferred tax impact. So in 2020, that was an extraordinary situation regarding taxes. Even without the tax effects, we could have paid the dividend. So it's not related to the taxes. Did I understand you correctly?

Christian Arnold

analyst
#55

Yes, you explained it correctly.

Silvan Merki

executive
#56

Any further questions here in the audience? I believe there are none through the phone line or via the chat. Well, in that case, thank you very much. I would like to stop our Q&A and the word is -- the floor is yours, André.

André Wyss

executive
#57

So thank you, Silvan. I would like to thank everyone for attending today's analyst and media conference, and I wish you all a great day, and goodbye. Thank you.

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