Indian Railway Finance Corporation Limited (IRFC.NS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the IRFC Q2 FY '25 Earnings Conference Call hosted by DAM Capital Advisors Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Sanket Chheda from DAM Capital Advisors Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Yes. Thanks, Ridhi. Hello, and very good morning to all of you. We are here to discuss the IRFC Q2 results. We have the entire management team. The key personnels will be Mr. Manoj Kumar Dubey, who is the Chairman and MD. He would be doing the call for the first time after joining IRFC and quite a dynamic personality comes from a very rich experience across many industries. The second is Shelly Verma, who is Director of Finance; and Mr. Sunil Kumar Goel, who is GM Finance and CFO. So without further ado, I'll hand the call over to the MD sir, Mr. Manoj Kumar Dubey. We'll follow that up by question and answers after his opening remarks. So over to you, sir.

Thank you, Sanket, for all good words. Good morning, friends. Welcome to conference call for quarter 2 results of FY '25 for IRFC. I'm Manoj Dubey. I'm Chairman and Managing Director of this company. And I have here with me my Director of Finance, Ms. Shelly Verma; and my CFO, Mr. Sunil Goel and also my Head of Departments. Before we discuss the H1 and Q2 results of the current FY, let me have the opportunity to introduce myself in brief. I took over as CMD IRFC on 10th of October last month. I bring in more than 30 years of experience of working in railway infra logistics and railway finance ecosystem. I'm an IRAS officer of 1994 batch from civil services. And I worked in UTI also before joining railways. In the last decade, from 2013 to 2018, I headed the railway Board's infra finance wing of PPP and extra budgetary resource mobilization. So in a way, you can say that for me now, I've changed the sides of the table. For the earlier days, I was looking at IRFC for getting the money for railways. And now from here, I'll be doing the job from the other side. Meanwhile, from 2018 to 2014 -- 2024, I was also on the Board of Container Corporation of India Limited, that is popularly called CONCOR, a leading Navratna railway logistics company as DFO -- DF and CFO. Ministry of Railways and GoI has been promoters of IRFC, have brought me here as CMD for a tenure of 5 years. Coming to a brief about the latest journey of IRFC. As you know, this company is working from 1986, mopping up funds for Indian Railways, particularly. But the journey from 2015 onwards took a new turn. In 2015, for the first time, apart from funding the rolling stock requirement, that is engines and wagons and coaches for Indian Railways, Indian Railways also started taking funds from IRFC for their project financing. I was in fact in those days in the railway Board itself. That journey culminated in a very steep rise in the asset of this company. In fact, from 2018 to 2023, average INR 60,000 crores plus disbursement took place. And in fact, there were 2 highlights. One, in the FY 2021, the disbursement by IRFC to Indian Railways crossed more than INR 1 lakh crores. Until that year, that was the highest for any NBFC to disburse in 1 year. Second, in the FY 2023, the total AUM size of IRFC grew more than INR 5 trillion, in our terms INR 5 lakh crore. In that particular year, it was highest in the CPSE NBFC system. With this steep rise in the business, one more milestone took place in the company. In 2021, listing of this company was done and nearly 13% shares were divested. You all know that since then, the market cap of this company has grown steep, posing a lot of confidence in the kind of business that we do. Company also has a rare distinction of maintaining zero NPA also and has grown stronger in the balance sheet in the last 5, 6 years. With very high and steep growth in its assets under management for 5 consecutive FYs, there was no disbursement in last FY and current FY till now. In fact, our debt-equity ratio, because of the steep rise in the last FY, had grown very high, nearly 9 plus, which is now cooling down to nearly 7.5. This period of 6 quarters, in fact, when we did not disburse, but our projects, which we have financed with 5-year moratorium time was still giving us a good revenue stream and that is keeping our top and bottom line steady and healthy. With the full regular functional board in place now, taken over for the next 5 years, and we have now my full team with me, company is making concrete plans and road maps for renewed lending structure, not limiting itself to railway directly, but also to the backward and forward linkages in railways and logistic ecosystem, which covers almost everything in infra sector. If we talk about port also, if we talk about anything which is doing something that the logistics, will come out in our purview of memorandum of article. Meanwhile, going further, company will keep augmenting its core competence and be ready to leverage our balance sheet strength to make very attractive funding available to all sectors as per our mandate and MoU. You may be aware that IRFC's weighted average cost of capital has always been lowest among the peers. And we intend to further bring it down, leveraging our strong balance sheet, having more share of 54 ECs and 0 NPA and 0 tax takers. Coming to our quarter 2 results and numbers. As you have already seen, it has been as steady as it could be. And I assure you that coming a couple of quarters will be giving a lot of pace to growth and growth trajectory of the company with infra story of the country for the next 20 years, I would say, is completely intact. And the story of infrastructure in railway in particular is fully intact. I see a very bright future of IRFC. With this welcome remarks, I welcome you all to this Q&A session with us. Thank you so much.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Sanket Chheda from DAM Capital Advisors Limited.

Yes. So my question was that in the last 2 years, we have seen developments in other PSU NBFCs as well. So PFC REC like earlier used to do only power, later they have been mandated to do infra, which is non-power as well as we see renowned CapEx after many years and the signs of private CapEx picking up is already visible. So in case of IRFC, so far, we have been only into railways relating to -- related financing. Any thoughts on moving to different sectors or getting those mandates? And any change of strategy there or any inclusion of other sectors as a part of strategy? So anything that you can highlight would be useful.

So yes, Sanket, this is the most pertinent question for us. So number one, as you rightly said that the PFC and REC from their core sector of power, they are now into everything as infra finance company. So likewise, we also have a mandate from RBI to lend to anybody. There are no restrictions from that side. Having said that, till now, we have been funding only to the railways for 2 reasons. One, as you see that my asset under management size is as big as REC and PFC with the appetite that railways had with us. So obviously, until now, we never looked forward to anything else rather than meeting the target of the railways, which used to be very high. In fact, I mentioned that in the last 5 FYs, before FY '23, the average disbursement was INR 60,000 crores, which was more than in fact to PFC-REC also. Yes, going forward now, the first thing that we have already started looking towards the other entities who are having forward and backward linkages with the railways and the logistics sector. In fact, if you are tracking us, we have already done the funding to -- we are entering into an arrangement to fund the NTPC for purchase of their wagons which they use in the railway system for their coal logistics. Similarly, there is everything, including even the hotel construction, which is linked with the railway tourism, which we can fund. Also, yes, we are making a strategy and we are very much planned to go forward in next quarter and the next FY ahead to look into these prospects. And one more thing, as you know that in railways, we do the bulk of lending with a margin of 35 bps and 40 bps. Once we go outside purview, we don't have that restriction. So obviously, we'll be doing the lending at a very attractive way. In fact, better than and competitive than the peers, this is what our motto will be. But still, our margins will be high and that will show a good growth in my PAT also going forward. And the next combination that you mentioned, yes, going forward, the quarter-to-quarter will unfold with you and share with you. Yes, our aim is also to be as good as funding anything and everything in the infrastructure of the country, like PFC-REC in the coming years. I will say, it's not visible in the next 2 quarters because the business lying in the ecosystem backward, forward of railways itself will be sufficient right now. But with the growing muscles and things going forward, yes, that is the destination for this company also.

And sir, as far as the pricing is concerned, we see that REC, PFC cost of funds are around 7, 7.2, are these -- and they landed around 9.5. So they make about 2.3, 2.5. We have been operating at a very thin spread. If we continue to do so for the other's infra, is there a possibility to gain the market share from the other NBFCs dealing in infra segment or any thoughts there?

So Sanket, your question has got answered. The moment we foray outside railways, in railways, it is 0 NPA business. It is assured business. And we have an arrangement of funding them at 40 bps and 35 bps for projects. Once we go out, obviously, the lucrative market as you rightly mentioned the kind of bps, which I'm not saying, you are saying me that the 300 bps or 250 bps. So those lucrative aspects are there for us also to grab. Yes, as our ethos have been, since we -- our weighted cost of capital has been lowest in the market, if we foray out as and when and which we are going to be very soon, it's not that we are going to crash the market of lending. But yes, we will surely be the most attractive lenders in the ecosystem, that is going without saying. And for surety, we are going to move out to the railways -- apart from the railways funding to the other sectors from next quarter onwards. So that is on the cards.

Okay. Okay. And sir, the other question was that one is that what kind of a growth CAGR we should expect over next 2 years, 3 years, 5 years that you would have under the plan? And particularly outside the railway-related financing, which has been a 0 NPA business for us, whatever other things that we do, how do you see the share of debt fees moving into 3 years or 5 years? So will it be, say 10% of the AUM in 3 years, 15%, 20%? How do you see that?

So Sanket, I won't be putting any numbers on that. But as you see, what we are watching straightaway, one that steady pipeline could come from the railways, that we are already in discussions and once the things unfold. As you know, railways declared this right in the beginning of the FY. And the beauty of the railway is that the whole disbursement takes place in the same FY. In comparison to other companies where sanctioned projects are not mandatorily disbursed in the same year. It may get disbursed in a couple of years, 3 years. In our case, once the railway declares in the budget that this much of funding will be taken from IRFC, it is disbursed in the same year. So that is one stream. Second stream, we are not putting any numbers. But as you see, once we grow and go out in the market and start taking anything in the logistics field and the infra fields, obviously, we are going to grow and since my numbers outside railways is 0, my CAGR for those fields will be high, A. B, whatever margins will come from that business, as you have already seen that my peers are doing at 250 bps and 300 bps also in some cases. We look at the quality of the assets. And obviously, our growth will be quite phenomenal. If you want to let me know in next 2 to 3 years, that is the plan in the hand. I will refrain from putting any numbers on that. But every quarter when we meet you, the numbers will keep unfolding for you.

The next question is from the line of Kamal Mulchandani from Investec Capital Services.

I just wanted to ask like what is the disbursement target which we are planning for the current year and the next year? Apologies if I might have missed the answer to this question like earlier.

So right now, we are not giving any targets. As I mentioned to you, for the last 6 quarters, I mean, last full FY and this FY for the first 2 quarters, there has been no new disbursement. Of course, because of the moratorium that we have given on the project side, we are adding them every year in tune of around INR 25,000 crores, that will keep coming. Apart from that, after taking over last month, we are working very actively with MOR and MoF also, Ministry of Finance also, A, to start our steady business from the railway side. And we have already funded to NTPC and we intend to start looking at the prospects in other sectors also. So I will not be giving any numbers, but going forward, I can assure you that our disbursement as well as the project sanction will pick up steadily.

Sir, just wanted to like understand that we are foraying into other infrastructure sectors apart from railways. So what is -- is there some guidelines from the ministry or something that they won't be needing any funding from IRFC going forward?

No. Let's be very clear, let's be very clear. As I mentioned to you, the funding to the MoR, which is our mainstay and which is the main mandate, that would keep continuing. What size of the funding will be there, that they announce every time in the budget, okay? So the 1st February when the budget would come out, we'll give a full clarity for next FY, A. B, for this FY also, and if you understand the government budgeting system, there is something called revised estimate. This revised estimate comes in the month of January, right, for this current FY. There may be a chance that if they feel like giving us something that can come up, there's no guarantee of that. But if something comes, the same will be disbursed in Q4 only. This is the beauty of the business that we get from the railway. It's not like sanctioning and disbursal will take in some 3, 4, 5 quarters. Whatever if at all something comes from the GoI and MoR for us to be disbursed, that surely will be disbursed in this FY only. So it all depends how it unfolds. And I think the story will be unfolding in January and February so far as government business is concerned. I hope I have made it clear.

Okay. Just wanted to ask like what is the contract size of the deal, which we have done with NTPC?

That is INR 700 crores. This is just the beginning because this is the first time they have gone a leasing model with us. As you know, we don't do the funding in that loan kind of thing. It is the same model that we do for the railways. It will be a leasing model for 15 years. And the first tranche of 30 rakes they have entered with us. And this is very lucrative business. We are looking forward to coming from NTPC and all petroleum companies who are main customers of Indian Railways. So they are now thinking of owning the rolling stock on their own rather than depending upon the railways. So this is a very lucrative business going forward if you get a good pie of it because we are the only company who are in the leasing business of the rakes. And the margins will obviously be better than one we are -- I mean, getting from the railways. So that's one of the brighter sides that we are looking forward to, and we'll try to monetize it and grab it as quickly as possible.

Okay. So will there be any change in the tax rate because of this? Or like it will continue to be 0?

So let's hear from my Director of Finance on this.

See, currently, we have opted for -- as you know, opted for Section 115BAA and because of this depreciation on the leased assets, we are not paying any tax. So this we have -- this NTPC business is also on the leasing model. So we'll continue to get depreciation and because of the accumulated depreciation for my funding to MoR also, for the next couple of years, we don't see any tax payments.

Okay. And like -- but will account for some credit costs for this, to some extent, like that would be there?

Whatever is a borrowing that will be cost, but because of the accumulated depreciation and further depreciation on that finance -- whatever finance lease we do subsequently, we'll get depreciation on that also. So we don't see any tax payments coming for the next couple of years.

Minimum.

Yes.

Okay. No, just wanted to confirm on that point as well that since this is some financing to other than railways, we'll be booking a provision for credit costs that will account for, right? Provision for -- towards the NPA or something like that?

Can you please explain what kind of a provision you are talking about? Is that for standard...

Again, loan losses. Again loan loss, yes, correct.

We are currently doing 0.4% for whatever funding we have done for IRFC, the same provisioning we'll do for this exposure also.

Okay.

So that doesn't have much of impact as you see in the RVNL we have done. So it is forward backwards. So it is coming back again and again.

The next question is from the line of Naman Kumar.

The first question is with regard to project assets. I understand 5 year is moratorium period. But after that, once the lease gets signed, how much is the primary -- or like what is the duration of primary lease period? Is it same as rolling stock which is 15 years or is it more than that?

Let us hear from my CFO.

We will follow the same method as we are following in the case of a rolling stock. The primary lease period would be 15 years. And in case of a project asset, secondary lease period will get reduced from 15 to 10 years.

Okay. Got it.

So 30 years remains the same. A 5-year moratorium takes out of the second leg of 15 years. So 15 years remains the same and the next 15 years reduced to 10 years.

Okay. Okay. Got it. And my second question is with respect to no targets being given to IRFC, I know we have discussed a bit on this with prior questions as well, but if you can give some clarity like why is the case because historically, I have gone through previous year's annual report, like 10, 15, 20 years. I have never seen that Ministry of Railways has not given any target to IRFC. So there must be something, which is happening to which might be you guys be privy to. So if you can let us know, that will be very helpful for the investors to understand what is going on because I read one CAG report wherein there is a question or there is an issue of -- because Ministry of Railways is paying substantial chunk of its collection to IRFC in the form of principal payment and interest payments on leases. So if you guys have any privy to what is the rationale for the last 6 quarters or for the last 2 years and Ministry of Railways has not given any funding to IRFC, that will be very helpful.

So Naman, most of the things are in public domain only. So nothing which is being hidden from any of the shareholders of the company. So let's hear in a proper manner. So as you -- as I mentioned in my opening remarks also, if you look at the disbursement from FY '28 to FY '23, that was steep and abnormally high disbursement at IRFC did to the railways. The average was INR 60,000 crores. If you listen to my opening remarks, FY '21 was as high as INR 1 lakh crore plus in 1 year. So there is something called debt-equity ratio that RBI also maintains for every company. And in those days, my net worth was nearly INR 40,000 crores or INR 39,000 crores. So this debt-to-equity ratio went more than -- nearly 10%, which is quite high in terms of RBI's guidance also. So there were 2 things. One that all of a sudden in 5 years, if you look at -- if you are watching my balance sheet for 30 years, you look at my assets in last 25 years and the assets in last 5 years, that will give you the real picture. So the rise and -- rise of the balance sheet and assets under management was so high in 5 years that it was a little difficult to -- not to take a pause and put the things in the right perspective. Let the debt-equity ratio also cool down and have a new strategy. So this is primary reason of that. Nowhere, it is opined by Government of India that henceforth, no disbursement will be done by IRFC. This is the prime reason that we foresee as a company on behalf of the Government of India. Now, there was some element -- vacancies also in IRFC. Now that I have been put in the players and now I have full Board with me, we are already in constant discussion with MoR as well as MoF. And since nothing has come out in clarity, so I'm not putting any number, but as I mentioned in the last question that something should come out with clarity in the month of January for RE that is this FY and in the month of February for next FY because government is very clear if there's anything allocated to IRFC that comes in the part of budget only. So there is no ambiguity so far as that is confirmed. So this is part A. Part B, after listing and with the size of balance sheet, which is nearly INR 5 lakh crore, it is incumbent upon this company now to diversify. There is no requirement now just to be on the -- dependent upon the MoR funding only. The balance sheet strength and my net worth strength gives me a lot of legroom to start looking at the quality assets in all the infrastructure. As you know, national infrastructure pipeline forecasts huge capital investment coming in various sectors of the country for next decade. We want to be part of that, and we need to enjoy that pie also in a manner that we also get good numbers on our bottom line for our shareholders. At the same time, we position ourselves as an NBFC who is lending to all the people who are in the growth story at a very competitive rate. We have got excellent reputation in ECB market. We are the ones in the country who gets the ECB lending at the cheapest rate. We are the only company who has come up with a 30-year tenor bond in the market. We are the first company who got their bonds listed in GIFT City. So these strengths we want to leverage not only for railways, going forward for all the sectors. And if you heard other questions, beauty for me is that, if I do a railway business, I'm getting 40 bps. And if I do a business outside the railways, as somebody mentioned, Naman mentioned or somebody mentioned that the ambit is at 300 bps. So if I do those businesses even in smaller numbers than what I'm doing for the railways, my PAT is going to be very, very sound and steep. So next 2, 3 years, that road map and plan we are making and everything will be unfolding, as I said, every quarter onwards, maybe January when we're meeting with Q3 results, maybe I'll be coming out with numbers also what MoR is giving us and what MoF is planning to give us. But right now, this is a projection I can share with you. I hope I have clarified.

Yes, yes. So this was really, really helpful. If I can squeeze in one more question. It's more fundamental question regarding the interest cost. So suppose when we lease a rolling stock, just a conceptual question, it is. Suppose we lease a rolling stock of INR 100 crores, at that time, that particular year, my borrowing -- incremental borrowing rate for the year was 7%. So I'll lease it to MoR for 7.4%, right?

Let DF answer.

You're right. This is the WACC plus. But at the same time, we have to understand our business model. It's not only price, our risks are also passed on. If there is any -- if that borrowing I have done, say, from a floating rate, then interest rate variation is passed on. If that borrowing I have done from ECB, then currency valuation is passed on. So it's a cost-plus model. So cost plus some of the risks are also passed on. But you're right, if its cost is 7%, then 7.4% -- at 7.4%, I'll be calculating my lease rentals.

You listen -- you understand the philosophy and for all shareholders. You understand philosophy of my lower bps margin with the railways. I'm 100% insulated with any kind of market fluctuations.

Yes, yes, I understand. My question is more from support that lease 7.4% is fixed for 15 years. Now that INR 100 crore borrowing, which I did, I may have done that not for 15 period only. Some borrowings maybe for 10 years, some borrowings maybe for 5 years and some borrowings maybe for 15 years. So what happens, say, after 5 years, INR 20 crores were borrowed for 7%. But after 5 years, the -- I have to reborrow because that matured -- that borrowing I have to pay. So INR 20 crore, I now borrow at 6%. So that 1% extra benefit, which is arising accruing, does that also get passed to the Ministry of Railways or does that belong to IRFC?

So if it is done from the fixed rate, supposing it's done from -- I've funded from 10-year bond, then that benefit comes to us. But at the same time, you have to understand there's a capital recovery also. So I'm also getting some capital recovery. So my -- that also goes into the repayment of the debt, which I have borrowed for funding of that particular asset.

The next question is from the line of Umang Shah from Kotak Mutual Fund.

Sir, I just have a couple of them. One is, from what I understand from the discussion so far, it appears that should we understand that capital is a constraint to growth and probably then in that case, why not probably raise more equity and bring our gearing ratios down and probably look at growth? Is that an option for us?

No, no, no. I think let's clarify to you. That I said that since we were going so far, so we as a company thought that, let it cool down rather than putting -- infusing more equity. I mean that is not the constraint at all. In fact, to tell you the fact, our Board has already approved ourselves INR 8 lakh crores of .

Total borrowing.

Let's hear from DF on this.

Now my current debt to equity is -- leveraging is 7.83. So there's absolutely no constraint for further growth, and plus I'll be adding. And the capital, this year, we are, as you know, since my exposure is 99% -- more than 99% exposure to MoR, my capital adequacy is more than 700%. So there's absolutely no constraint with respect to equity for the growth. And further -- and every year, I'm adding to my net worth, which will give me further headroom for the growth. So as far as the capital requirement, there's absolutely no need for any capital infusion for growth. So we are very comfortable...

So Umang, I want to add to you, it is more than the equity, if you understand. You see, for the railway assets, we don't have to do a lot of appraisals. So it's all safe, coming from the government, almost sovereign. So we never had a very big appraisal team with us, that was not required at all. So my strength lies in bringing in the cheapest fund. So my resource mobilization team is very, very renowned and they are very good at bringing the money. Now that we are trying to foray into the lucrative business outside railways, our focus now lies on building up our business development team and appraisal team. In fact, in the railways, I have the expertise of 5 years in appraisal itself. Working at Finance, I do PPP and EBR. We did with General Electricals and Alstom for Madhepura loco factories. So those expertise are brought in, and we are now already in the process of creating a very robust appraisal team, taking all the talent from the market in our team. And this appraisal team, once it in place, which already is a work in progress in a very fast manner, we will be looking at the lucrative project outside railways and this remains our mainstay. The only thing that we mentioned that let there be a clarification by January and February about this FY or next FY what ticket size we are getting for the government. So as far as equity is concerned, there is no concern at all. And in fact, in a couple of years, we have added more muscle to our network. Now it is more than INR 50,000 crores. So there is no issue on that count. I hope I have clarified.

Yes, sure. This is quite helpful, sir. In fact, for my second question, you have sort of partly answered, which was in terms of building capabilities as we try to kind of look at funding projects outside the railway infrastructure ecosystem. Sir, are there any specific areas of infrastructure which you have already identified? And the second part of the question was regarding the private sector exposure, right, I mean, so far, as you rightly said, we have been operating in an environment where the exposures have been almost sovereign, right, 0 risk. However, if we just go back in history and if you look at some of the other state-owned NBFCs and their experiences along with private sector infrastructure companies, clearly, that has been a bit more patchy, right? So how should we look at it in terms of strategy, in terms of our ability to underwrite and our intent to underwrite private sector exposures?

So, Umang, on the lighter vein, this company is -- has brought me here CMD, and I always claim that with my government experience of 30 years and delivering at a fast pace within the ring fence of 3 Cs, that is CBI, CVC and CAG, we have developed the expertise of doing the right kind of appraisal and not being rash in getting any kind of business. So that is expertise that I have brought, and this is something I'll inculcate in my team down below. Having said that, there is no strict no, no to anything. Every business has to be evaluated in its proper manner. We'll be looking at -- as I -- I have been telling in all my questions and answers that we'll be looking for the quality of assets. We are a 0-debt company and would like to maintain that kind of that -- good thing that we have with us that we remain there. So obviously going ahead, even in the sectors outside railways, we will be very, very handsome. I'm not saying strict. Strict is not a good word. We're very, very handsome and prudent in analyzing the kind of quality of assets that is being offered to us. We will be very attractive in offering a rate to asset, which is very good in ratings. For the fact that for me, I'm used to offer railways at 40 bps. So just I'm giving you a flavor. I'm not giving you the numbers that this is a number I'm going to give. So please don't quote me as the kind of numbers I'm giving you. But say in comparison to 40 bps, even 150 bps, even 120 bps sounds very nice. So we are preparing ourselves for that. And our motto will remain that. We will look for the very good quality of asset. And I assure you that IRFC will be having one of the best appraisal teams available with a mix of government people who have done appraisal as well as people from the industry who are very experienced in doing appraisals, right? From the CPSE, we are open to take people from the private also. Once this appraisal team, which is already in progress of getting formed, we already have a team and we want to strengthen this team. We'll be looking at all kind of business available. You mentioned in terms of private thing, my mandate doesn't stop me from giving it to anybody. But having said that, we will remain in the simile manner. As I said, we don't want to play 20-20 match. We are a very responsible company, and we are very much answerable to our shareholders. We will be playing a test match kind of very disciplined, knowledgeable and good business kind of thing that we'll do. And those things -- and those numbers will unfold quarter after quarter in our business because we need to walk our talk. And this is a con-call we have started, every quarter you see that the growth is there and there is also an assurance that we won't be landing in an asset which is going to be back. This is the motto that we will take forward in doing the business in the coming quarters and the years together, right?

Perfect. That answers my question. And just the last one, which is sort of related to the first question, which I asked. Sir, we have now -- IRFC is now listed for quite some time. And is there any time line which the Board has decided or discussed with SEBI as far as the minimum public shareholding is concerned? So is there any dilution, which can happen around the corner to bring down the promoter shareholding to below 75%?

So, Umang, that's a very genuine question. But as the CMD of the company, I won't be answering this. This question goes to my promoters. So better throw this question to DIPAM secretary. I'm sure they are doing something, but it is for them to answer this question. But as you know, SEBI guidelines are sacrosanct for everybody. We are not out of that purview. So whatever SEBI guidelines are there, that is applied on everybody. And our job as a manager of the company is to see to it that we are doing good business. We are doing a solid business, and we are doing a risk-free business. So this management is committed to that. So far as diluting the shares are concerned, statutory limitations are there. And this particular question will be answered by DIPAM secretary and not me.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Sanket Chheda from DAM Capital Advisors Limited.

Sir, the answers have been elaborate. Just on one thing that you didn't allude to is specifying maybe your growth intentions or putting a number to it. But just some sense would there be useful. Maybe we will look at, at least growing by, say, 20%, 25% our AUM, maybe 20% -- 18% to 20% would also be quite a meaningful number on our base. And of that, say, how much could be the new infra piece or the other lending besides railways?

So, Sanket, we won't be putting any numbers. As I clarified to you, that's not the intent of the management. Management can give you the flavor of what kind of business is coming on the plateau. That I think I have discussed in very elaborate manner about government business as well as the private business. I've done detailed talking on that. Numbers we'll surely not put. As I mentioned to you that so far as the numbers coming from the government, those numbers cannot be kept secret. Those numbers will be coming in the month of January and, of course, in the month of February, when we take the budget on 1st of February. So I think if you are so keen about numbers, let's have some patience, it's not far off. It's at least -- that's Part A business. Part B business, as you know, any kind of arrangement, MoU or the business we are getting from the other side, immediately goes to the -- both of the exchanges. And every shareholder is aware of that. Like NTPC, the moment would -- we did it, the very same day, we posted it on exchanges. So let's follow our trackers on the exchanges. Anything coming on those sectors outside the government parlay will be surely, and on timely, will be posted on the exchanges. Numbers, I'll refrain from quoting as we do in the government part.

[Operator Instructions] As there are no further questions, I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments. Thank you, and over to you.

So thank you, Sanket, and thank you DAM for making this good beginning with us for the new Board. I'm sure, going forward, we'll be bringing new insights and new facts and figures for our shareholders through you. And I thank you all. And let's -- with that, we meet on a very high note and a positive note for the next quarter. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

On behalf of DAM Capital Advisors Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.