Inpex Corporation (1605) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everyone. My name is Ueda. Thank you very much for coming despite the cold weather today. And also for those people participating through Zoom, thank you very much for your participation. And this Investor Day we are holding today is the first time that we are doing this. And I'd just like to say why we are going to do this. In August, in order to enhance the corporate value sustainably, and I've explained the approach in that regard, and so we want to be more focused on our capital efficiency and also -- so deepen the understanding about our investments, the strategy and to also work towards providing returns to the shareholders. And we felt that we are going to work on all these elements at the same time. And so as part of that, today, we wanted to explain the status quo of our company, our strategy going forward. Of course, we wanted to gain deeper understanding in this regard with the investors both in and outside Japan. That's the reason we have arranged for this day. Today, first, body and hydrogen. And so we would like to provide some explanation about these key topics today. And right at the end, we will have the general Q&A session to talk about other projects or the company-wide strategy. So we intend to provide responses to questions in those areas at the end of the session. So this is the first time we're doing this, so it may not work out all well today being the first occasion, but we'd like to continue with this in the future. So at the end of the session today, please share with us your frank opinion so that we can leverage that in the future meetings. It's going to be a long meeting, but thank you very much for your participation.

My name is Okawa. I am the Senior Vice President in charge of Oceania projects. For 18 years, I have been stationed outside of Japan. Now recently, I'm back in Japan, and in 1998, since this project was initiated, and once it was back in Japan. But after that, I have been in Perth again until the beginning of this month. So I would like to give you some episodes to look back on the history we have gone through. And then I would like to share with you the updated current status of this project and challenges and initiatives that we are going to take going forward. Thank you. So with this slide, looking back our history, in 1998, permit was awarded. As you know, in 2018, we started the production. Therefore, over the past 20 years, only expenditures were incurred. Therefore, we struggled very hard in this project. And we started with 3 staffers. One of the 3 was me. And in West Australia, there was no base. Therefore, there was no bank. And by having the 1 million as advance, holding that cash, I started being stationed in the base, and then I was asked to start and finish the campaign. So with that environment, we had to start this project. In 2000, and in -- the 3 wells were drilled, and all the 3 were successful. It was very unexpected, and that was such a great success of our exploration drilling. And given this result, the company was in a good spirit, and I reported back to the headquarters in Tokyo in such a remote area. And then halfway through, a gas reservoir was discovered. And what would you like to do, I was asked. And then in the Q&A after my finishing the first phase of my stationing there, and I was back to Japan. Then in 2008, Darwin was selected as the LNG facility to be established. Up until this year, I struggled very much, if you remember, regarding the establishment of the plant in offshore of the West Australia. Therefore, we wanted to utilize the on-site of the West Australia, not only by us, but other so-called major oil company to start -- wanted to start projects in West Australia. As you know, there are lots of very stringent permits and regulations in Australia as regards to environment, and it was found that it would give too large impacts on the environment. Therefore, all those several companies had to get together to start a hub. And because of the different concept of development and timing was different and the financial strength was also different among different companies, we were not able to accept that offer to start as a hub. So in 2008 or close to 2008 and from the state government, why don't you relocate to Darwin in order to establish the LNG plant there? There was a background for this. And ConocoPhillips was already operating Darwin LNG project. In this project, which was already existent and then in the Northern Territory, which was gas ready, so there was a very strong support from the Northern Territory government available. However, 890-kilometer-long pipeline was necessary. Was it viable technologically? That was the biggest challenge. But it was found that it was okay from the technology division we have heard. Therefore, we decided to go to Darwin. Since 2008 up until 2012, when FID was made, there were various things happened. Inclusive of our company, this Ichthys project was thought to be a great discovery, and there were a lot of other investments and also processes before reaching FID. Once we achieved FID, the first challenge for us was because we had to start EPC and we needed to deploy the contractors to develop module in order to put them in the on-site or Darwin. So 41 countries and 3,300 companies, and in total 30,000 people made efforts in order to build up this project. So during the EPC, which was quite a hard period, but I was convinced as follows. We have the proven technology. So that means that we will not deploy or use the undeveloped technology. So we thought that we'll be able to achieve this, but schedule will be prolonged and cost will be increased. So that was the situation we started the project. In 2018, we commenced the production and then reached today. So in this history, what is important is the site, the location of the site and also how we can retain people. As you know, Inpex at that time was not well-known in the world. So Inpex -- for Inpex to carry out this project, there was a concern among politicians such a small company like Inpex and Japanese people would never do this. So with that background, we were struggling after schedule with EPC was started and the schedule was prolonged, then the cost was increased. But over the 5 years and up recently, we have been able to continue stable operation. So now let me turn to more specifics. So now what we'd like to explain here is, as we said, 9.3 million tonnes of production or stable production needs to be continued. Such a structure needs to be established, as we said, under the MTMP. So 9.3 million tonnes per year. What does it mean? Offshore well production capacity and an onshore facility processing capacity. And then what percentage of utilization rate are we able to achieve? So these are the factors determining the actual production volume. Simply put, onshore, 108% capacity if we can have that capacity and 86% utilization rate. And then we will be able to achieve 9.3 million tonnes of production. 108% onshore capacity on a permanent or ordinary basis, we have achieved this. And then without accident, if we can achieve the 86% utilization rate, then we can achieve 9.3 million tonnes. Over the past 5 years, production continued. By the end of the year, 1,000 cargoes will be achieved. Now we achieved 998 cargoes, but not only with LNG, LNG, LPG and offshore, onshore condensate cargoes, all together combined. And then 1,000 cargoes shall be achieved in early December. So over 5 years, we have been able to continue stable operation for which we should take pride on. So going forward, as the challenges for the future, in order to continue stable operation, of course, we are facing challenges. Over the past 2 years, there have been some the larger-scale shutdowns, and we have tried to improve the facilities in order to make it more resilient and sound because we are dealing with a complex and a very large facility, so we never expect that there will be no challenges. But with the minor or little challenges, we will proceed by solving these challenges. And there are various kinds of troubles happening, and there was some trouble this year as well, therefore. But still 128 cargoes were shipped out this year. So compared to the other years, I believe that the production capacity has been improved so far. Next page, please. And for the growth strategy going forward, and this is something that we are often asked about. And the first is additional development of Ichthys. Why do we need to do this? Well, right now, we are at a plateau, the production. And this is equivalent to 8.4 million tonnes of production. But in order for us to maintain that and if we continue to produce at this level, of course, the reserve will start to come down. But in order to not to have that come down, to maintain the plateau, we need to backfill, which is additional development. And one method for us is in regards to development from a gas reservoir of a property that we already own or discovered undeveloped or engage in exploration to maintain production volumes. So these are also possible approaches. Ichthys right now, we are scheduling to drill 50 wells in total, and we have already completed 26. And we are producing from 22 wells right now. But until 50 and if we drill 50 wells, it will be quite possible. And so we are trying to work on optimization of existing wells. And Ichthys has 2 gas reservoirs. And one, the reservoir is called Brewster, and this contains a lot of condensate. And this is our main reservoir, and the CO2 content is about 8% to 9%. But the reservoir below that, it's called Plover reservoir. And it contains about 15% CO2. And so if we have to generally develop and prove the reservoir, we need to respond to CO2, which is something that we are starting to work on now. And also the peripheral, the blocks. Not just our own or for us to maintain plateau, we need to make various challenges and discover undeveloped block we have obtained stake recently from a certain company. And by doing this, we will extend the plateau period by around 3 years. And background obtained in this equity is that there are positive and strong prospects nearby. And so developing them together, it may be possible for us to extend the life. And that was also the background to obtaining this block. And the other is exploration. We have -- near Ichthys, we are scheduling to conduct 2 exploration projects. One started, and before the end of next week, we will reach the target reservoir. But what does it mean for us to engage in exploration near Ichthys? Well, if we find something, even if it is a small volume, we are able to link that to Ichthys to make it commercial. This is a significant advantage. Of course, we are talking about risk of exploration, but we want to take that risk to link potential discoveries to development. And the third train expansion. And this is a very important topic. And from our perspective, we want to maintain plateau production through backfill, and we want to engage in expansion beyond. And how are we going to do this specifically? Well, we have already narrowed down, and we have already started to obtain -- work on obtaining a block. We can't disclose this, but let me explain the situation. In the first quarter or the second quarter next year, we will start the process to obtain our participating interest. And in doing so, our company name is likely to be disclosed publicly. And so in the meantime, please wait, but we are working on initiatives to achieve our third train expansion with some uncertainty. Moving to the next phase. Until now, and I've been talking about production from Ichthys. However, as you are well aware, we are facing a tough headwind, which is responding to climate change. Unless we do this, the survival, the existence of Ichthys would come under question. In other words, we have to maintain the license to operate. And in order for us to continue operation in Australia, we have this responsibility of responding to climate change issues. Now what we are trying to think of right now, there are 3 pillars. First is CCS, carbon capture and storage. And so injecting the CO2 sub ground through CCS. Second, both on and offshore, we are burning fuel. So that causes CO2. And so we need to electrify, which is decarbonization. This is something that we will work on at the same time. The third thing is that we are also working on the forestation [indiscernible] business in Western Australia. And so by using these 3 means, we want to work on responding to the CO2 challenges going forward. And next page. And I've been talking about technological elements thus far. But what is also important is that -- so we were not known as a company, so we really struggled in securing people. But after we made the FID and when we started the project, then people started to obtain the image that this is a real project, and we started to get the people as a result. But the Australian HR market is very liquid. And for us to retain them, we need to have a clear retention strategy. Otherwise, we will see people leave us. And so what we try to do is that we want to become the employer of choice, and we want to become a company that people want to work for. And this is a company-wide effort that we have been working on. And this has started to spread, and people have started to realize that Inpex is the great company. And in Australia, we have more people wanting to leave their existing employer to come and work for Inpex. And so this employer of choice is something that is becoming quite well-known. And also to become a partner of choice, people wanting to partner with us is very important particularly when it comes to climate change. And climate change is a common issue for the industry. And if each company work separately, it's inefficient. So it's important for everyone to collaborate so that we are able to achieve synergy. And this is also a very important point. But in the end, we are a people business. And so the company with strong people will win. And so we, too, will not just focus on obtaining strong people, but we want to also think about retaining these capable people. In terms of contribution to the local community, this may be somewhat different in the case of Japan, but we do have the aboriginal people. And the onshore site was a site where the aboriginal people have been recognized as a traditional owner. And this is only for onshore, not offshore. But they don't have a native title. But if they don't have a native title, can we just ignore them? Well, that's not the case. So from our perspective, despite the fact that they do not have a native title, but we are working together. We are thinking about the aboriginal people's future. And so we are going to -- we have proposed a package of AUD 24 million over 40 years. Now the Western companies, they apparently pay a lot of money, and they essentially ask people to obey. And so the aboriginal people did not have a strong -- a positive mindset for the energy company. So when we met with them, we spoke with them saying, what do they want the most? And then we've asked them to come up with a wish list, and of the things in our wish list, what we can do as a business. And also the elders, and they have a strong respect for the elders. And so they want to care for those people. So we said we will do that. But for the future, we felt that education with the young people is also important. So we've engaged in this type of dialogue. And as a consequence, we have been able to establish a very good relationship. And many companies have worked on this. But I think there is a unique approach, typical of a Japanese approach. The Japanese people respect the foreign cultures, and Japanese culture also respect elderly people. And this type of thinking is similar to the thinking of the aboriginal people, and that has now enabled us to establish a very good relationship. And we also have a scholarship program as well. And we have been working to strongly establish our position within Australia. And lastly, as you are well aware, the Australian government changed to Labor government. As a consequence, new policies have been announced. And as you can see here, there are 5 elements in this policy, but all of them are not supportive of the business, the operation. And there are 2 elements with a strong impact. First is an environmental impact assessment or environmental plan. And when we had to make assessment, we need to deal with more stakeholders. So if we drill a well and if the oil spill, then to what extent are we going to consider the impact? And initially, this has included Indonesia. The law was extremely bad. And so in that kind of environment, many companies have struggled. And as a consequence, the development in the future in Australia was considered to be very difficult. A lot of contractors end up leaving Australia. But for us, we have been quite thorough in engaging in consultation from the past. And so when it comes to exploration -- so after the enhanced environmental assessment, we were able to obtain approval for the process. And as a consequence, we have been able to start with the exploration work that I mentioned at the outset. But within the Australian government, there could be even tightening of the regulations going forward. And so we need to continue to engage with stakeholders and also safeguard mechanism. This is an issue. There are a number of issues associated with the safeguard mechanism. Australian government by 2050 have announced that they will become net zero. And there is a baseline that they have established, a baseline for the CO2 emission. So anything above the baseline, the penalty will be applied. And that will certainly add pressure to our economics. But as I said before, we, from the very start, recognize that we need to work on reducing CO2. So we're going to do a CCS in a place called Bonaparte. We are going to be the operator for this CCS project. So CO2 will be injected. And so we've been working on this for quite a while, and so the policy change on this occasion. It has made things more difficult, but we had predicted for this to happen. So we are not kind of in a rushing way, but the Australian government certainly has enhanced the environment-related measures. But recently, I think everyone around the world is starting to think that we went too far into renewable energy. So at least for the foreseeable future, gas is likely to be -- to play a central role for energy. I think there is a great understanding in that regard. And so Australian government is starting to slightly alter the calls. And so they have started to engage with us in terms of dialogue. So going forward, without CCS, the Australian emission standards will not be achieved. So we will continue to lobby with the government. We will use the support from the Japanese government. And we're going to obtain subsidies from the Australian government to work on improving the economics and to make sure that CCS will become a business in the future. So that was quite brief, but that concludes my explanation. Thank you.

Now we'd like to open the floor for Q&A.

This is the first IR Day. And from the outset, you have been very frank, and I thought that this would have been the opening of the drinking party at night, but there was a quite frank and open discussion. I have 2 questions. First question is regarding the exploration in order to maintain your platform for production regarding the number of wells. You mentioned the current status. So as long as you can tell, the plateau production, I believe that, that is related to the terms. But with what time frame? How many wells are you going to drill? And Cash Maple was granted, and such additional wells to be acquired. So in order to maintain the stable production, how much CapEx is expected to be needed on a continuous basis? That is my first question. And the second question is regarding the third train expansion. CCS or Bonaparte CCS seems to be quite a large project. So I'd like to check on that -- the sequence. Now the third train expansion, I believe that you mentioned that there are going to be the specific steps to be taken. But regarding the safeguard mechanism and the new exploration, I think that the emission control or accounting will be very stringent. And Bonaparte CCS, before the expansion of the third train, the Bonaparte CCS needs to be started before the third train expansion. So could you please explain your view on the sequence of these events?

Thank you very much for your question. Let me respond to the first question. For drilling, the current 2-well drilling and plateau and you asked about the timing of the plateau and the 2-drill -- 2-well drilling. Why are we doing this now? We are eyeing at 2030 or so. We believe that at such timing, the production level will start to decline. But recently, the development of the wells, the production wells are doing very well. So I thought that the plateau will be extended a little bit. But originally, we were thinking about 2030, and then the shortfall will be made up for by adding new wells. Therefore, drilling of the 2 wells were started from this year. So the production will come around a little before 2030. As regards to CapEx, well, we'd like to refrain from mentioning any number now. Now we are making the plan for the wells, but it will be affected significantly by whether or not these wells will be successful or not. Therefore, if you could just wait for a while, and then we will be able to give you a clearer picture regarding the development plan. And that is about the first point. And the second point is related to the relationship between the CCS and the Train 3 expansion. The Train 3, as you said, needs to be carbon-neutral. Otherwise, we won't be able to get a permit. In order to make it carbon-neutral, there are two. And the first one, that absolutely CCS needs to be up and running. That is the precondition. And then this new facility, as regards to the electricity supply, not the gas or steam or the electrification, the facility itself needs to be carbon-neutral. That's what we are thinking about. Now going forward, the challenge for us is how we are able to ramp up and start such facility. But having said that, contractors understand already that these are the absolute conditions. So they are making various suggestions and offers. So based upon those suggestions, we believe that we will be able to have the carbon-neutral facility. And then turning to CCS. CCS is going to be a trump card for reducing the CO2 emission. So how we'd be able to store the CO2 underground by drilling the wells and how much CO2 can be contained and stored. And then by doing such analysis, even before 2030, we'd like to have facilities up and running. So we are asked whether it is possible to speed up this process. Yes, we would like to accelerate, but there needs to be the technological verification. And we also have a liability. So whatever is stored underground. It needs to be sealed permanently. Therefore, we needed to conduct the tests, including monitoring therefore. But before 2030, we would like to have this facility up and running.

One question in regards to competitiveness of Ichthys. When Ichthys started production, the production capacity and the investment, so those 2 factors were looked at to consider Ichthys not to be all that competitive, but various regulation, Train 3 or the plateau being extended. And rather than 8.4 million tonnes, the production volume is going to be larger. So if we take all those elements into consideration, what is the competitiveness of Ichthys amongst the LNG plants?

Well, I kind of am bragging myself, and I apologize. But the first challenge was that Inpex didn't have much experience. And so people really questioned our ability to operate the project, not only Japan and Australia. And so we will consider to ask for our support from others in the end. So the situation was even -- not to the level of the completion. But in 2018, after we started production, what have been -- what have we been focusing on? And what we have focused on is stable operation. The project that started at similar timing had kind of struggled. And now we have a mission of providing stable supply of energy to Japan. So regardless of what happens, we must be able to maintain our operation. That was one of the key things that we focused on. And so when we went into the EPC phase, we used proven technology in order to achieve stable operation. And since we didn't have the experience, we didn't make any excessive challenges. And that was the policy that we've employed. And as a consequence and as I've said before, we have been able to maintain stable operation for 5 years, and we are about to send our 1,000 cargo off. And not just the Australian government but our competitors, they have recognized our ability. And many of the projects operated by majors were struggling, but the small company, Inpex, have achieved stable operation for 5 years, and that has -- that was a call for others to recognize that ability. So the stability of Ichthys has been recognized widely, and that has led to significant enhancement in competitiveness. And Total, our partner, has recognized that as well. But the operating cost going forward, and we did have troubles in the past. And so -- and we have had to push back a lot of the maintenance work because of COVID. And so once we address that, the operating cost will come down and will settle at a certain level. And Total has also recognized that as well. And so in order for us to enhance competitiveness going forward, we need to work on reducing costs and work on increasing the production volume and starting with 8.4 million and to 8.9 million, and we will go to 9.3 million and to go beyond. And by doing this, competitiveness will improve inclusive of unit cost.

On Page 7, employer of choice things that you introduced to us. Because of a continuous employment and desirable workplace, and this has penetrated, what kind of initiatives that you have been doing? And what has been evaluated by the market? Could you please give us your view?

Yes. First of all, when we consider to be employer of choice, if we have this as a target, what has been valued the most? That is corporate culture. When it comes to corporate culture, as you know, in Australia, everyone wants to do whatever they would like to do. If I am a top executive, just going to the right and then other staffers will go to diagonally or right or left and downward or upward. But if the top person says go to right, and then everyone should follow to the right. So what we did is the siloed information. The person himself in charge is containing the information, not sharing the information. And then we are not able to have the one united spirit as a team. So silo over information had to be demolished. So that means that they -- by sharing their area of work with others -- and they thought that their work will be taken by other people. It's not the case. By sharing the information, synergy will be enhanced and then the entire organization can be upgraded. So this culture improvement was done thoroughly. So about 70% of my daily time was spent for betterment of the communication like that. So what I thought at the beginning was that we should not bring in the Japanese style or way of doing things. Well, there are practices that Australian people are familiar with. If we tried to bring in the Japanese way, then we would have failed. And then there were things that we had to change gradually. First, the linguee was the first Japanese term used in English communication, the groundwork or groundwork layering. So that resounded with Australian people. We were having frequent meetings. And sometime we had a sudden topic arising, and nobody was prepared. And they had a fierce discussion and having a thorough discussion, and that's the end. There was no outcome. So we shouldn't have a surprise topic for meeting. So Nemawashi or groundwork was the easiest way, fastest way to reach the conclusion. And so Christmas party, which I do not say much about at the headquarters, but different from Japan. Western companies, like those in Australia, Christmas party is very critical, so having partners attending. So why do we value this? Because we were not known. So we invited partners to join to show that this is a good company. We wanted to have them reminded of the goodness of the company. So we wanted to spread out the word of mouth. So that's why we carried out Christmas party. And showing us as a good company, united company, such atmosphere had to be built. And that's what we did. As I said earlier, recently, people are switching from other companies to join Inpex, saying that they would like to work for Inpex. They tend to be quite senior people. They used to be in the leadership team of other companies. And we understand that our organization is perfected. Therefore, we are not able to provide good position for those people. So there needs to be a reshuffling and reassignment of the people. With the progress of the project and the changes in the business environment, such reassignment or reshuffling will take place. And we have cherished communication among people the most.

My name is Watanabe. I am Senior Vice President in charge of HR projects. Thank you for coming today. Next, I'd like to explain Abadi LNG Project. Ichthys, which is going very well, it is very hard for me to explain this project now, but I try to do my best in explaining my -- this project. So what Abadi is? It's something that I'd like to explain first. Abadi is, in Indonesian, permanent or eternity is the meaning of this term. In the same year of discovery of Ichthys, in 2000, Abadi was discovered. At that time, our seniors, superiors wanted to keep the fire going on. Or for the development of this company's business, this project shall be the eternal contributor. And -- or for Japan and Indonesia, friendly relationship, this project was hopefully going to be the contributor to the relationship. So that's why this project was named Abadi. Abadi itself is not going to be eternity. But for many years, I hope that this project is going to support our project business so that this gas field is going to provide the stable supply of gas. But in the negotiation with the Indonesian government, Abadi may mean that you needed to negotiate forever or Abadi meaning that the development will never come forever. So I have been teased many times in the negotiation so far. But nowadays, at last, this project is about to be established with the betterment in the business environment. Therefore, I'd like to give you the update on such changes in the environment. But having said that, we do not want to be reckless in carrying out this project, but considering the business environment or business strategy of the company to which this project will hopefully contribute. So that's why we would like to develop Abadi, so I would like to touch upon those things in my presentation today. In the first slide, Slide 12, this shows the Inpex Vision 2022. Under Inpex Vision 2022, we mentioned this. The competitive clean project in early 2030s, production is expected to be started. With that aim, we are going to promote this project. So this summarize this. And keyword is competitiveness, the economics of the project and the cleaner energy or CCS. And as you know, our partners, Shell, withdrew from this project. For us, we had to look for new partners. And on this slide, economics of the project and CCS for cleaner energy and also partners, these issues are mentioned on this slide. First, competitiveness or project economics. In August this year, we announced in the mid-10% range. We are going to achieve IRR at this mid-10% range. We are not just aiming for or hoping that IRR will be at that level, but already, we are -- we negotiate -- we are starting the negotiation. We have already started negotiation with the Indonesian government. What kind of negotiation are we going to have? Well, this is the matter of negotiation. Therefore, we are not able to disclose the contents of the discussion. But the Indonesian government does understand fully what we want to do and aims at -- aim at. Therefore, framework regarding how to realize that, when, how and what will be done and in what manner. So these are discussed in order to have the common understanding of these issues. Next, regarding CCS. So far, we have already announced on this as well. In April this year, CCS shall be added to project scope under the development plan or plan of development, or POD in English. And revised POD was submitted to the Indonesian government. And over 6 months have already passed, but this POD has not been approved, you may think. But after submitting in April, we have done things that we were able to do. On a continuous basis, we have been continuing negotiation with the Indonesian government for them to easily approve what kind of parts of the document should be modified in order for them to approve it. So revising the POD or revised version of the POD has been submitted. So we continued on these efforts. And based upon the outcome of the negotiations so far, recently, it is very difficult to mention specific date. But in a quite near future, POD revised version shall be approved. We have a very strong expectation as such. And regarding new partners, as you may be aware, instead of Shell as new partner for us, Pertamina and Petronas have entered. Indonesia and Malaysian, the national E&P company, respectively, joined. Indonesia Pertamina has the dominant experience in the development of the oil and gas. And Malaysian company, Petronas, not only in Malaysia but also in globally LNG projects. Related experience is accumulated by this Pertamina as a company. So we recognize these company as partners as such. And for LNG as well, there are strong demand from these companies. Therefore, as partners, we believe that these are excellent companies as partners for us. Going forward, Inpex, Pertamina and Petronas, these 3 companies will continue collaborating in order to early development of Abadi. Next slide. On this slide, we are sharing with you the project concept for Abadi. As for Project Abadi, in 2016, by Indonesian president, the development concept, FLNG, which we were aiming for, offshore concept, switch to onshore LNG. There was a change in the concept. So -- but as you can see here, in the Abadi development project concept is FPSO as the center for offshore development and onshore LNG plant as a core. And onshore development are combined. Offshore, onshore are combined in an integrated manner of this project. So as you see on this diagram, you may have found this project concept itself is very close to the project concept of Ichthys. There are 2 major differences. First one is floater for offshore. Floating production facility in Ichthys CCS, SPFO (sic) [ FPSO ], there were two. But in Abadi, for gas -- because of the gas property difference, FPSO is single, unified. And pipeline length in Abadi is about 1/5 of Abadi. So compared to Ichthys, which is said to be very close to Abadi, but compared to Ichthys, Abadi is a little bit smaller in size. In addition, in Abadi, I think this was mentioned in Ichthys presentation, LNG production facility will be incorporating the CCS facility from the outset. LNG production starts, and at the same time, CCS operations shall be started at the same time. That is our current plan. This has been submitted in the POD revised version, which was submitted to the Indonesian government. So with this content and then once we can get approval from Indonesian government, once that is realized, and then the 2 points that I'm going to mention, this is going to be the first-ever project in Indonesia. Firstly, in first point, at the same time production is started, CCS will be started as well. And in the second point, the cost related to CCS based upon the production sharing contract with the Indonesian government or PSC. Under this PSC scheme, this LNG development project is now being carried out by us. The CCS costs will be included in the scope of PSC scheme so that the cost will be recovered from the revenue from the production in the future. CCS costs under PSC scheme will be recovered. So the cost will be returned. In that sense, this is going to be the first-ever CCS project in Indonesia. Right after starting the production, CCS shall be started. And cleaner energy supply and also costs shall be recovered through the production. So in that system, economics of the project can be maintained and also further enhancement of the profitability. So now similarity with Ichthys again, such a similar project concept is pursued. So in development of the Abadi, as Okawa-san explained earlier, in Perth, those people who have experience in Ichthys projects and such people can be deployed into the Abadi and also partners, new partner companies who have rich experience in the project. So we can have people seconded from overseas, utilizing the expertise and experience and capabilities going forward. Next slide, please. On this slide, this is way forward. Towards the production start, what are we going to do? It's summarized on this slide. And on the following slide, Page 15 and 16, more specific contents are provided in more details. So if you could look at -- go back to Page 14. And on the left-hand side, the left bottom corner, right now, the new partners have entered this project. As I said earlier, POD, plan of development, is yet to be approved. We are waiting for the approval. Once we can get approval on POD, CCS cost shall be recovered through the PSC or production sharing contracts, as I said earlier. And in order to secure that plan, production sharing contract itself shall be amended. That is what we are currently thinking about. And what we are currently working on at present, to create the foundation for carrying out the project once that is done. And then towards the end of this year or early next year, we would like to start the project activities. And then towards the final investment decision, FID, we would like to continue to proceed with the project steadily. And the work to be done is summarized on the following 2 slides. So if you look at these, and there are major pillars -- 4 major pillars. And the first is the project activity itself. And so we need to work on FEED, front-end engineering and design. And then we go to the EPC, the construction phase. And the second is that engaging in this type of project activities, we need to work on obtaining various licenses and approvals. And for that, we need to work on environmental impact study, environmental plans, and we have to have permits and we need to also obtain and procure land. And as was introduced as the Ichthys project, but we need to also then think about addressing the local community. And this is also something that we want to work on as part of our social right to operate. And these activities will also be very important for us to raise the required fund. And thirdly, inclusive of the fund and the activities, LNG, the sales activities, marketing, commercial activities overall and these are the things that we need to work on, and the project activities I've mentioned before, the approvals and then commercial-related elements. And those are something that we will work on towards reaching FID. And as a consequence of these activities, once the cost and the schedule, the forecast is updated and once we know how much gas we are able to sell, and once we know how we can raise the required funds. So once these become more certain and after gathering all this type of information, completing the FEED prior to FID, we want to reevaluate the economics of the project to see whether it is investment-worthy or not. And so that will be the point at which we will make a decision. And in making that decision towards investment, of course, we need to comply with the investment standard that we have internally, but not just that. And within the -- with the Indonesian government, we have agreed that we are going to work on these activities jointly. And so based on the result, the financial conditions could be changed or we may be able to receive additional incentive from the international government. So we will engage in that type of negotiation if required. And if those go well, then we will reach FID, then we'll start the EPC, the development work. And in the early part of 2030s, we'd like to be able to reach start-up production. And as I said, there are 4 elements, and I forgot to mention the fourth element. And the fourth element is the CCS and other decarbonization initiatives. And our aspiration is described on the next page. And so using CCS from Abadi, what type of business are we going to roll out around CCS? And so we all know CCS as part of the project to begin with, but thereafter -- and then CO2 from third parties. In other words, gatherings CO2 from other companies, then instead of those companies, we will inject CO2 to ourselves. In other words, to engage in a CCS hub type of business or project this is something that we have in sight. And as part of that, right next to the LNG plant, we might want to put up a fertilizer or ammonia plant so that we are able to produce blue ammonia, which we can provide as clean fuel. And that could also be something that we may be able to roll out. Of course, the immediate challenge for us is to start up Abadi project, and that is where we're going to focus on fully. But if we just focus on that too much -- we don't want to miss out on future opportunities. And so for elements of this nature, we want to continue to engage in discussion with related companies or to engage in studies jointly or to provide explanation to the Indonesian government and to lobby the government to establish required laws and regulations. So we are doing this type of tree-planting work in one sense. And that completes my explanation. Thank you very much for your attention.

Now we would like to open the floor for Q&A.

I have 2 questions. My first question is investment. Well, I know that you have not finalized the investment plan, but I needed to ask these 2 questions for what is not determined yet. Regarding the investment amount, in 2019, with Indonesian government, $8.5 billion to $19.6 billion. Regarding the plan, which includes now the concept of CCS and a change of the partners and inflation and raw material or material costs are increasing, so considering these, and of course, I understand that you have not come up with a finalized number. But how -- what is the ballpark of the investment amount you are considering now? The second question is also related to the future. Demand or the users whom you are going to supply gas, buyers of gas, as we have heard in the Ichthys session, because of the transition, LNG or gas will play important roles. So for buyers -- well, I know that you are not able to mention any names of the buyers. But could you please give us your feeling or feedback from the buyers?

Thank you for your question. Those 2 questions are directly related to the challenges we have with Abadi project. Thank you for your question. Firstly, what I needed to mention is the status of this project as well, of course, but also in Indonesia, as I said earlier, production sharing contract, PSC, through this contract scheme, we are allowed to carry out projects. From the perspective of the Indonesian government, we are regarded as contractor. Therefore, there are things that we are not able to mention. While we have things that we are able to say, well, we are controlled very stringently. So then how much are we going to incur? Well, more than that, I believe that there shall be information disclosure by the Indonesian government. So if you look at the media reports in Indonesia, you would be able to see the complete numbers in the media coverage. So given that -- and what they are referring to is -- well, I'm sorry, Indonesian government authorities personnel may be citing different numbers from what we say in my presentation. But in 2019, the study was conducted. Based upon the results of such study, they are referring to their numbers in their media reports. So going forward, as the challenge we face now, as you pointed out, considering the changes in the market conditions, how valuable -- how much validity we can see in those cost estimates. Through FEED or other processes, we needed to verify and validate those cost estimates. But given the changes in the market environment, which are, it seems to be -- which are very volatile, therefore, the costs -- well, we are not able to easily come up with the cost estimates. So after FEED, as I said earlier, we will have a close and frank discussion about the investment as well as the economics of the project with the Indonesian government. That framework has been agreed upon with the government, and then we will discuss and determine whether investability is present or not. Well, I know that I'm not directly responding to your question, but among ourselves inside the company, we share the similar concern or risk. While we keep such risk in our mind, while we are proceeding with the project, we are considering how better we are able to proceed. And based upon the scheme we have agreed upon with the Indonesian government, we are currently still studying. And regarding the second point in your question, the sales of LNG going forward, I believe that there are several points to mention. First one is different from Ichthys. We are starting project from scratch. Therefore, financing or funding needs to be done. So the contract, the LNG sales contract as the back -- the foundation for supporting such PSC and the energy transition is taking place, and we have to consider how we can secure such sales contract. And this transition is not the tailwind for us, but recently in Ukraine as well as the heightened interest in energy security with the long-term sales contract, well, compared to several years ago, we are seeing an increasing number of potential buyers who would like to have a long-term contract for purchasing Pertamina and Petronas. They themselves would like to buy LNG. So traditionally -- traditional Northeastern Asia but also the Southeastern Asia and Indonesia domestic supply, where Indonesian government itself has high expectation, too, therefore, combining these potential markets and then the sales contracts or buyers will be the supporting factors for this financing or funding. So we will not just give up. If we work hard, I believe that we can make a breakthrough in finding those potential buyers and contracts.

I have 2 questions. So first question is that regarding Shell leaving the project, how you have rated that. And why? Was it the case that you were unable to work with them? Of course, you're talking about third parties, so it may be difficult for you to comment, but inclusive of what you think, if you could share with us, that would be great. The second question is the stance of the Indonesian government. This is not too clear from the outside. As you've said, supply and gas domestically is, of course, one point. So there must be high expectations for the project. But at the same time, the Indonesian government, they are not really providing a strong support to really push the Abadi project forward. It doesn't look that way at least. You may respond to this by saying that, that is how the time progresses in Indonesia. But the current Indonesian government stance in regards to the Abadi project, please share with us your thoughts. Of course, these are not easy questions to answer.

Thank you very much for your question. First point, in regards to Shell, well, we are not in a position to respond because we are talking about as a company, that would be kind of the standard type of response. But for a number of years, in fact, closer to 10 years, we have collaborated with Shell as partner over 10 years. So we were engaged in communication with Shell on a daily basis, of course. And so what I have felt is that rather than project itself but Shell overall, they had a corporate strategy and how are they going to position the upstream business in Indonesia from their perspective. And from -- for their perspective, we are the operator. And so within their portfolio, what will be the priority order of this project? And they've considered those elements quite thoroughly and came to their conclusion. Of course, you can never prove as to whether this is the right or not. But rather than the risk of the project itself but as part of their portfolio strategy, they had other projects that they wanted to prioritize. And that is how I have assessed their position. And in regards to the second question, Indonesian government, so they have designated this as a national strategic project of the oil and gas development project. There are only 4 projects in Indonesia that's been designated as a national and strategic project. And so there is no question that they consider this project to be very important. I don't know how you look at it, but the Indonesian government, when we are negotiating with them, they have continued to say that they want the project developed quickly. And I have been at the forefront of negotiation, and I've always felt the pressure. And of course, I was engaged in negotiation and a lot of stress in one sense. The Indonesian government, they have their production target that they want to see achieved in 2030. And so in 2030, 1 million barrel per day for crude oil, for gas, 12 Bcf, 12 billion cubic feet per day. So these are the target that they've set for 2030. So if we start the production from Abadi, then 2 Bcf, and so 2 billion cubic feet, about -- sorry, the 1/6 of government target can be achieved by Abadi once it starts production. So it's a very important project from their perspective. Then now also the case for us as well, but also for the Indonesian government, they don't have this stance that it must be developed at all costs. So Pertamina, they participated in this project, and we had the opportunity to continuously talk with the Indonesian government as well. So they want to make sure that this is economic. And so they don't want this project to damage the financial position of Pertamina. So they have constantly asked for the project to be developed in an economic, viable way. So in that regard, I think we are facing in the same direction between us and the government.

I would like to ask you only one question. Since August of this year, the target IRR has been in the range of mid- to 10% range as the target IRR. But as an energy project, I think that this is a quite aggressive number. And in that -- later, the -- by segment, you have presented the ROIC by segment. And compared to the Ichthys project, I think that this is a quite challenging target. Of course, POD -- revised POD has been submitted to the government. I believe that there has been some calculation you have worked on to come up with this target. And then Abadi itself, it seems to be cost competitive. Otherwise, this target will not be realizable. So cost competitiveness, how cost competitive in what manner Abadi project has been? I think according to president's explanation, I think the efficiency per well was mentioned earlier. But -- so what are the potential improvement of the cost competitiveness in this Abadi project? Could you please explain that? And based upon the market price conditions, well, you may not be able to mention this specifically, but what kind of image do you have regarding the market price conditions? Well, maybe not eliminating that factor but utilizing some kind of a scheme to come up with this number, so could you please give us your view on how you come up with this number?

Thank you for your question. This is exactly the challenge that we are facing in Abadi project, the cost competitiveness of Abadi, what kind of factors which allow you to have cost competitiveness. And in the preconditions or economics and the market price conditions, what are our assumptions? Yes, that is, in my understanding, your question. And regarding the cost competitiveness, rather than cost itself, but when we make FID, the criteria for getting the approval for investment and EPC development and the construction period throughout which we're able to maintain those conditions. So from the later portion, I would like to mention first, what we are trying to do is the kind of a copy of Ichthys project or reproduction with the smaller sites. The good learning or lessons learned and negative and positive lessons from Ichthys will be utilized. And in order to avoid the delay in the schedule, time line and cost increase, we believe that we'll be able to establish such management system for doing that or rather we needed to establish that system. At the outset of ramping up and what cost structure are we going to have, as you rightly pointed out, in Ichthys, 50 wells were drilled. That was explained earlier. In Abadi project, in order to start the production, we needed to closely see. I believe that 1/5 of such number will be necessary for studying production. Therefore, we do not believe that there will be a lot of upfront cost. And of course, we are based upon the assumption that there will be efficient gas reservoir. Utilizing them, we'd like to pursue more efficient operation. And regarding the economics of the project, our assumptions, we are not inflating such economics calculation only for Abadi. As has been explained earlier, internally in the company, Train 3 expansion of Ichthys, we are seeing competitors. Therefore, we needed to win against those competitors inside the company, and we have to be comparable, at least comparable to such competing project inside the company. So there are various assumptions. Particularly when you want to do business in Indonesia, you need to get a permit from the government. Within that scope of a permit, you need to sell gas. Therefore, you are not able to utilize the pie-in-the-sky type of assumption for coming up with the economics. You have to be -- you always are transparent to the government counterpart. Therefore, we are not able to mention specific number here, but we keep transparency so that anybody who wanted to see it -- and then such a precondition or assumption should be convincing to all those stakeholders. Otherwise, we will struggle in the end. So I'm not sure, maybe I am convincing to you, but utilizing the reasonable assumptions and economics will be estimated and to decide on the investment.

Yes. I am in charge of renewable energy business. My name is Kawano. Since January this year, I have been in charge of renewable energy business. As you know, in 2021 and '22 in Indonesia or Australia -- in Europe, we acquired the projects, brownfield, under production or about to be produced. So we have been engaging in these projects. And given the issue of Ukrainian war in this year, prices have been stabilized. So given these conditions, we have continued with the renewable business. So now I am in charge of this business. What do we want to do going forward? With these key themes, we have been working on various initiatives. BP and Shell in their briefing session for investors, renewable energy business or net zero emission, I believe that they are not providing clear-cut explanation. They are mincing their words. So I hope that you will not ask about the clear-cut business as regards to renewable business, but I'd like to focus on 2 points. In what direction going forward are we going to pursue in terms of renewable energy business in the future as the company? And the second point is also related to the future direction. This year, in Australia, we have been tying up with Enel on a 50-50 equal footing. We established a joint venture company. We closed this deal, which is now up and running. So I'd like to touch upon that business as well briefly. Now please turn to the first page. So in which direction are we going to be headed for? On the left-hand side, we are expanding business in core regions. As you know, when you are doing business, we needed to do business in the areas where we know a lot. If you are doing business in countries where you do not know much about, then there will be political risks. And also upstream core regions like Japan, Australia, Southeast Asia and Abu Dhabi and Europe, in these 5 major core regions, we would like to continue to develop our business. There are 3 points here. The first point, for this year, in Australia, with small goodwill, the future potential development or those projects still in pipeline, there are many such seeds for the future business. Together with Enel, we are going to develop this business on a 50-50 equal footing. This is one of the strategies related to the business areas. And the second point here is, in principle, when it comes to renewable energy business, we are not just simply selling electricity. The first reason is, for example, in Australia, FID or FID subsidy or minimum guaranteed price is not available, like we do have in Japan. We'll have completely free markets is there in Australia as well as in the U.S., in Europe as well and in Japan as well. On the offshore wind power, second-round tendering, there is nothing like the minimum price. Therefore, we needed to come up with the new different business style, and through the Enel cooperation, not only just generating power but retail or trading of energy. We needed to do something like a price adjustment. As you know, the PV utilization rate is, of course, not available during night. Therefore, it's about 20% offshore wind, a little bit higher but a little above 40%. So now up to 90%. So anyway, in the free market, we needed to sell something. Our unique, our own selling channel or retail or hedging may be necessary. So these are the things that we have to consider now. And we believe we are now at the right timing to do so and other companies as well. We do not believe that we have enough capability, but through the project in Australia, we are going to send a lot of people there. So we hope that they will continue learning. While not considering simply selling energy or products, we would like to come up with a new style of business. The third point is not materialized business, but yet at some time in the future, we may have to consider such M&A. So if we choose wrong timing, then we won't be successful at all. Therefore, we have to be careful. And what we have written on the right-hand side is on top of this, we have touched upon the projects in Australia, Indonesia and Abu Dhabi and also some upstream business in Europe. So how are we going to enhance synergy with upstream business? And energy related to upstream business can be covered by the renewable energy. The upstream renewable energy value chain should be created by ourselves. We have some concrete project, the gas field and also Hywind Tampen floating offshore wind, 88 megawatt. For Norway operation, starting from this year, we are using the power generated from the Hywind Tampen. 35% or so is covered by the offshore wind farm in Norway for the first time in the world. So we believe that the upstream business will continue to be necessary for us. So decarbonization of such upstream business will be realized by providing the renewable energy. That is also one of our missions. And the second point, that is related to Europe. Not only in Europe, though, hydrogen, ammonia, there are various ways of making these. But anyway, direct air capture, directly capturing CO2 in the future will be necessary. But for any of these technologies, you need to have clean energy or electricity that should be clean and renewable energy. That time will come, I'm sure. So what do we generate as power, and then that will be utilized for other purposes such as making hydrogen to build the value chain for this. Through these 2 ways, we would like to continue to work on the renewable energy business, as you see at the bottom of this page. Later on, Mr. Yamada will explain about the WACC of other -- or ROIC of other businesses. But of course, we needed to achieve a ROIC above the WACC. So we would like to pursue projects that can achieve that higher ROIC than WACC. Under the medium-term management plan, there are some numeric indicators such as gigawatt. But it's not only about the capacity, but the profitability shall be enhanced or value chain will be newly created. So we should not stick to gigawatt numbers, but rather, we need to have a stable profitable income so that we can establish the renewable business as the future source of revenue and profitability. And on this page, on the left-hand side, this is before we collaborate with Enel, 458 megawatt. So now we have closed the deal, and this has been increased to 628 megawatt now. And under the 3-year management plan, ending in December 2024 next year, our target is 500 megawatt. By chance, we have been able to achieve this target. But having said that, as I said earlier, we are not just pursuing the quantitative targets. But here is the breakdown. In the future, in this mix, the Enel-related energy, the new -- after the -- which is currently under operation, this or battery is going to be one of the keys, which will be included in this mix in the future. Next, please. This is the summary of the renewable energy projects. The mix that was shown in the pie chart is broken down in Indonesia as foreign investor like us. The equity stake we have among the following investors is the largest. And next page, please. This is about Enel Green Power Australia. So what's on the left is where we have already started operation and 309 megawatts in total. Enel Green Power currently has 60 gigawatts of production capacity around the world and probably the largest renewable energy company in the world in terms of its participating interest. So this is the kind of company that we are collaborating with. And in terms of Enel, their effort for high returns, there is a bit of an overlap, what I have already explained. But what type of investment are we going to engage in, as you can see on the left, and as to whether the project under formation, will they be really achieved? Is it really going to be economic? It's really up to that. But by 2030, we are wanting to spend about JPY 100 billion of investment. And with Enel, as you can see on the second point, in regards to those projects with a certain level of return, we have already agreed with Enel that we are not going to engage in projects unless a certain level of return is achieved. And so we will work on retail or trading. We want to work on establishing value chain inclusive of those areas and their experience, and our participation will lead to enabling this. And so by doing this, we want to work towards improving the profitability of these type of initiatives. Now about 1/3 will be storage battery, about 1/3 would be PV, and about 1/3 will be onshore wind. And if everything goes well, that will be the kind of the breakdown. Unless we have the battery, we will not be able to engage in the retail and trading the last part of this value chain unless we have that part. And that completes my explanation.

Now we would like to open the floor for Q&A.

I have one question. As the president mentioned and as you explained earlier, Enel Green Power is your collaborator. So what is the background leading to the establishment of joint venture and 50-50 stake on equal footing? And you mentioned the small goodwill involved in the project, so there was not much burden. So with the good terms and conditions, you reached the alliance. And I think the presence of this company is quite high. So on the equal footing, you are able to carry out the renewable energy business in Australia. What was the negotiation and the background leading to this joint venture establishment? That is my question. And Enel Green Power in Australia, renewable energy development compared to other companies, I believe that there are many other local companies as well. What is the competitive advantage for Enel Green Power?

So first, regarding the background of the negotiation, it took about 1 year for negotiation itself. As you know, in Australia, about 20% is the renewable energy mix, and by 2030, they would like to increase to above -- a little above 80%. So there is a high expectation to renewable energy. So Enel decided to enter Australian market. Having said that, they do not have experience a lot in Australian market. Therefore, their capacity is not very large. So we have the name and recognition of the Ichthys project. Our company is very well-known, relatively speaking, well-known in Australia. When it comes to investment amount, we are the #1 investor among Japanese investors. So of course, we took -- went through the bid, and preferential negotiation rights was granted by them. Because of the presence of Inpex in Australia in relationship to Enel, that's why we have been able to conclude win-win contract with them. In terms of competitive edge, 60 gigawatt of clean energy they have. Therefore, in various countries, they have established the various kinds of business models. As I said earlier, they are not just setting things on the corporate PPA. Of course, retail trading actually, the entity in the corporate trading, energy green power, Enel Green Power, which will be changed to a new name in Australia, and they have a subsidiary of that company in Australia. We have a stake in that. So they are able to differentiate themselves from other companies because if you are just simply generating power, this is something that you will be able to do if you try, but other things have to be kept as the competitive edge.

So I have 2 questions. The first question, ROIC in excess of WACC, whether it be for Australia or on a global basis, specifically, what's the level of return that you are going to aim for? Of course, you can be concrete. But if you could give a ballpark level in comparison to E&P, probably difficult to achieve a level with E&P. But if you go to trading, you will incur certain level of risks. I wanted to get an idea of the type of level that you're looking at. That's the first question. The second question, you've mentioned storage battery a number of times, so renewable energy inclusive about the storage battery. To what extent the renewable energy business or storage battery business, how much expectation do you have for support from the government? Your thoughts in this regard. As we have mentioned, unlike Japan, that's probably the case for Europe or U.S. or Australia, renewable energy is being traded on the market. And so you have the kind of a green new deal type of initiative. You have the IRA in the U.S. And so I think the government support is likely to contribute to the competitiveness. That's what it looks like. You may say that, that may not be the case. Or is it very important to utilize the government support? And what type of market do you expect to be formed over the long term?

Well, the WACC of the renewable energy, that's a difficult question to respond. And WACC for us right now is around 6%. And that's the kind of level that we are traversing at. That may be explained later on, but we want to at least secure that level. And of course, there are various cases. And in this world of increasing interest rates, it's difficult to mention a certain level of number, but the rate of return for a project, unless we secure more than 8%, then it will be difficult to achieve that level of WACC. And the second, the BESS or the battery. In the case of Japan, towards R&D, there are various types of batteries, and various types of subsidies are being provided. And so the next-generation storage battery is also something that we need to work on as well. Now if so, can we engage in this business just based on government support? Well, we feel that this is not going to be all that easy particularly when you take a long-term perspective. If we have government support, that will be great. But in the case of Australia, the support being provided is basically -- we do receive some support, but the biggest support is that they are going to establish the grid, in other words, the transmission line. The government will lead the effort to produce these transmission lines. So there is that type of support being provided. So it's not the case that there are no support, but we need to be self-supportive. Otherwise, we will not be able to engage in sustainable business in a sustainable manner. Thank you.

I have one question. On Page 21, you mentioned the value creation in other business areas than power generation. Yes, I agree. So under what time line, could you please explain?

Retail business or trading business inclusive, well, with regards to the time frame in Australia already, which is currently running and operating, corporate PPA is utilized mainly for it. But for next year onward, for other type of business arrangement will be tried. So we are currently studying with Enel on those opportunities. And from next year onward, when the operation is started from next year onward, and then we like to have a firsthand involvement in the business. And then, of course, that involve some risk. But we needed to try. Otherwise, we won't be able to survive. With regards to time frame, by 2030, around the 2030s, that kind of a technology or know-hows will be secured and retained by us through the projects that will take place up until then.

My name is Takimoto. I'm Senior Vice President in charge of hydrogen and CCUS development. As we have just heard of the renewable energy business, but on top of that, hydrogen, the pale blue-colored H2 or hydrogen, you may have a perception of the pale blue, and ammonia and also CCUS and also in orange, carbon recycle business or the synthesized methane business. So with this cleaner and decarbonized energy and a next-generation energy supply business, in these areas, we would like to pursue business, which I would like to explain. There are a lot of information that has been already disclosed. But once again, I would like to recap how we are proceeding with these initiatives in this business. This is what we disclosed last year. Under this Inpex Vision, we mentioned this. Based upon the basis of the oil and gas business, net zero business, 5 net zero business will be also carried out. The decarbonization will be thoroughly done, and then the oil and gas stable supply will be provided. That is the foundation of our business based upon which the cleaner energy to be achieved through CCUS and next-generation cleaner energy to be supplied by making investment into hydrogen and ammonia. By doing so, the clean or decarbonized energy supplier business, we would like to establish our position as such business operator. And under the vision that we disclosed last year, we have established these numerical targets, as you see at the bottom. CCS, CCUS, around 2030 or by 2030, our equity injection, storage, 2.5 million tons per annum. This is our target. By around 2050, in CCUS business shall become larger and become profitable. So this is the target for CCS, CCUS business. In the orange color, the methanation or e-methane, by 2030, per year, 60,000 tons of LNG equivalent, the e-methane shall be produced. So 10,000 normal cubic meters per hour, that is the production volume. And by 2030 or around 2035, the production scale will be enlarged, and in LNG equivalent, 360,000 tons per annum. So per hour, 60,000 normal cubic meters. This is our target. And on the right-hand side, if you look at the hydrogen box, by around 2030, we will commercialize 3 or more projects and our stake production volume, hydrogen equivalent, 100,000 tons per annum. By around 2050 in such era, when we see more penetration of new types of energy, we will be able to supply 10% of the demand of energy in Japan. These are the KPIs or numerical targets we have announced last year. Next slide, please. So why do we want to promote this kind of a decarbonized or cleaner energy business? I would like to briefly explain why. First, if you look at the top left corner, which shows the bar, according to IEA, the CO2 derived from energy, it says that about 30 gigatons. That's 36.8 billion tons and this shall be reduced to net zero in 2050, to which Japanese government has committed and we also have committed to. And how are we able to reduce this emission down to 0? So there are various ways of reduction. First, energy saving and technology performance improvement, bioenergy and renewables will be used and electrifications will be applied. And hydrogen and ammonia and CCUS business are expected to account for 20% of the 30 billion tons of the entire emission. About 20% will be contributed by H2, ammonia and CCUS. This has been published by a year. And CCUS and hydrogen, as regards to our decarbonization of cleaner energy supply of us, we believe that the H2 and CCUS will play an important role for CCUS. First, in the oil and the natural gas business to be conducted and the emission of the CO2 needs to be reduced. And another is harder to abate emission by third parties such as steel makers and power generators and other cement manufacturers and so forth. Those who are struggling in reducing emission, we can provide CCUS as a commercial business to those companies. That's what we would like to do. And another, hydrogen and ammonia, Inpex is going to be the clean energy supplier. So in that sense, we are studying various initiatives and we would like to commercialize some of those projects. And our targets in this kind of value chain of hydrogen, ammonia and CCUS, we would like to be the first mover as pioneer, this is what we like to do. By 2030, around 2030, what we are considering as a project, about 20% or 30% of those pipeline projects shall be commercialized. We like to be the first mover to get into the -- this value chain. We like to be the first mover so that we can utilize our technological capability as first mover advantage. Next page. So based upon that vision, what we are currently considering is hydrogen, ammonia and CCUS business. As you can see here, this is the overview. As I said earlier, in 5 core areas or regions, we would like to put more focus on the -- for the hydrogen, ammonia and CCUS. We'd like to pursue business opportunities in these core regions so that we can exhibit more of our competitive uniqueness or advantage of Inpex. First, starting in Australia, Middle East, Abu Dhabi, Southeast Asia and Japan, CCUS business is being considered in these regions. On top of these regions, as you know, in August last year, Inflation Reduction Act was enacted in the United States. Compared to other businesses in other countries, I believe that this is going to be very competitive. On top of the core regions, U.S., for the hydrogen and CCUS business, we will consider these areas -- core areas plus U.S. So these are the major areas or regions. As you see at the top, the Niigata prefecture, blue hydrogen and ammonia production and usage integrated demonstration project, same in methanation demonstration plant being established or built in Niigata prefecture. And what has been adopted in this year in Japan, the advanced CCUS business project. The concrete initiatives bearing or storing CCUS in Japan offshore. These are being studied in Australia as well, as we have heard earlier, Bonaparte CCS is there. And also, the other day, we made announcement, Liquefied Hydrogen Business or HESC project, where we have announced that we would be participating in. In the United States, blue ammonia project, we made announcement on this project last month. We are aiming at commercialization of the blue ammonia project in Houston, the United States. And for several of these, from the next page onward, I'd like to introduce to you more details. And this is something that we have started in Kashiwazaki in the Niigata Blue hydrogen and ammonia, the production -- the project, which we announced and on the left is a photo as of September this year. And on the right, is how the facility will look like once it is completed. And Minami-Nagaoka gas field is the largest gas field in Japan, which we operate and we will utilize the gas from this field. And at the Higashi-Kashiwazaki gas field, we are going to create a blue hydrogen and ammonia. And the CO2 generated at that point in time, we are going to inject or store in the Higashi-Kashiwazaki gas field. And so by doing this, we are utilizing our existing asset fully. So this is a demonstration project that is quite uniquely fitting to ourselves. And so we receive support from NEDO in regards to hydrogen, ammonia production and CO2 capture. And for the CO2 enhanced gas recovery, we are using support from the JOGMEC. And JGC and Daiichi Jitsugyo will engage in the ammonia production with ourselves as the operator. We'll start the operation in August next year. And so integrated hydrogen, ammonia production and the CO2 EGR will be demonstrated and the Daiichi's cutback on technology and also on the BHP's new efficient ammonia production technology. These will be operated on a demonstration basis over a longer period and so that's the objective there. And this is also something we announced last month and we have started the construction already. This is in Nagaoka City of Niigata prefecture, the methanation pilot project. We have Koshijihara gas processing plant. It's very close to this. And at this point in time, this is one of the largest in the world, 400 [indiscernible] cubic meters per hour of production capacity that we are building here. And scalewise, we will be able to create a synthetic methane that is able to the -- support 10,000 households in Japan, which we will deeply establish in here. And so the pipeline and the possibilities, the CO2 and hydrogen, the synthesizing technology and all these will be examined as part of this initiative. And this is a joint project with Osaka Gas and Nagoya University will also participate in terms of simulation technology. Chiyoda will be responsible for the construction work and we are scheduling to start up the plant by 2025. And the Koshijihara plant, you can see on the photo on top left with the methanation plant being located about 200 meters north, so these 2 projects that I have already mentioned, demonstration projects that we have started construction of. But for this slide, this is an example in Houston, U.S. This is a blue ammonia project. And this is a project where we are trying to achieve commercialization. And this is also something that we have announced last month, Air Liquide from France, LSBC (sic) [ LSB ], which is an ammonia operator in U.S. and the U.S. company responsible for the port facilities, Vopak Moda Houston. So 4 companies will establish a blue ammonia production in industrial area near the port and near Air Liquide, Houston ship channel and send blue ammonia to [indiscernible] of Japan. And the targeted production volume is 1.1 million tons per annum. And Japan and Eastern Asia, the off taking candidates are now engaged in discussion of -- for off taking arrangement. And so we will be a part of the supplier, the entity in doing this. And we have explained a number of examples but clean energy operation, CCS operation and for those, we need to first unearth demand, clean hydrogen or clean ammonia business. So from the existing energy or existing fuel will be required for producing those natural gas or coal or oil. In comparison to the price of those, I feel it will always be more expensive but there is a price differential, which we call the green premium. So who is going to take care of that? That will be the key for enabling us to expand the business in this area. And once the demand continues to expand and the world is heading more towards decarbonization, for Japan heading towards decarbonization, for us to be able to contribute towards decarbonization business. In order for these elements to be realized, the 3 points mentioned on this slide must be realized. First, the private sector need to work on the technology development that it can do on itself to remove the price differential as much as possible. This can be done under the leadership of the private sector company. But for this to be started up what would be required, we need the government support in the initial phase in order to fill this price gap. In order to fill that price gap but green premium has to be taken care of by the government, at least partially to start with the kind of system will be required to begin with. And bottom left, on the regulation part carbon pricing introduction or related, the registration would be required. And so these days, we often talk of carrots and sticks. And so the regulation that are sticks and carrots and the private sector companies. Therefore, I think all these 3 will be required for us to be able to engage in this business area going forward. That completes my explanation. Thank you.

Now we would like to have a Q&A session.

I have 1 question. Regarding the challenges that you have explained towards the end of your presentation, I have a question. The company's effort, regulation and government support, as you said these are the 3 -- tripartite, so each of these 3 is indispensable. And under what time line for example, CCUS Business Act, this year or maybe next year, this will come around? And in support by government, there will be some support mechanisms. So once these are in place, only after that, and then there will be the initiation of the company's efforts, the production cost reduction will be realized at the same time. So in order for success, the time frame is necessary. What kind of view do you have regarding the time line for making success? And [indiscernible] is better. So what kind of support would you like to have under, what time frame? Could you please explain?

Thank you very much for your question. This is very critical. As a company like us, we hope that these will be in place as soon as possible. As you said, the CCS Business Act, which is currently under discussion at the -- [ MTI ] so as a company like us, we are also making input on what we would like to see. So in the ordinary session of the Diet to be held next year, the law will come into -- will be enacted. So that is our expectation. And as has been mentioned earlier, when it comes to the regulation, carbon pricing or carbon tax are going to be introduced in 2028. So currently, very low carbon tax is available right now but more realistic pricing will be provided through carbon tax and carbon pricing. So the time frame for the business to be successful, we have 2030. By 2030, as the milestone like blue ammonia in the CCUS business and other hydrogen-related or liquefied hydrogen business to be started by 2030 because 2030 is in line with the government's target or targets set by other oil companies. And this is the milestone year. Therefore, by 2030, we'd like to commercialize these aforementioned businesses.

Okay. Then earlier than 2030, like '28 or '29, do you think that the acceleration from 2030 will be difficult? Everyone says that it will be challenging. But a milestone is set for 2030 but this is still a very difficult hurdle.

Practically speaking, yes, 2030 is a stretch but we'd like to accelerate in order, setting aside whether we are able to achieve the 1.5 degrees target. But in order to meet the standards of stakeholders globally, we like to accelerate further. In order to do that and then there needs to be the low regulation and also support mechanism to be in place as soon as possible and it will take sometime for construction work. So in 2029 or 2030 at earliest will be the time frame we are seeing.

I have 2 detailed questions or 1 large question. And support from the government that you have kind of mentioned, to what extent whether it be renewable energy or CCS that you have introduced or the hydrogen and methanation, how is it different in terms of that government support? Mr. Kawano, in regards to renewable energy, you want to be self-sustaining that will be sustainable. And so in terms of presentation, you talked about WACC and ROIC. But in comparison to that, hydrogen and CCUS, rather than commercialization, you are kind of a step earlier in the demonstration phase, is that the kind of positioning at Inpex. That's the first point that I wanted to confirm. And something which is related to that, whether it be CCS or CCUS, irrespective of how far you go in the future, whether it be there is a carbon pricing or the government support, I think they must be inseparable, in my view, if not the case, please state that. But when it comes to hydrogen and methanation, they are somewhat similar to renewable energy. So they may be able to self-sustain without the support. Is that the kind of expectation that you have? Or would it be similar to CCS or CCUS in a sense that the government support will be required? Hydrogen and methanation, do you consider it to be a little bit different from renewable energy. And so the challenges that you mentioned at the last part of your presentation, how to pay for the green premium? If I -- my understanding is wrong, please make -- I'd like to explore that. But for renewable energy, I think you can obtain the green premium in the market. But in comparison to that, whether it be hydrogen or methanation or CCUS, how are they positioned? CCUS and then the hydrogen methanation, are they different in that regard?

Well, I think broadly 2 points that you've asked about, CCUS and hydrogen. The support, is it different to the support provided to renewable energy? That's the thing, the first point you've asked. Now the support visible at this point in time, for example, for CCUS in Japan, advanced CCS business in Japan, whether it be CapEx or OpEx. But to a large extent, there will be government support. And the remaining portion will be the portion for the private sector to, whether we were able to achieve commercialization. One example, there is a large scale CCUS project called Northern Light project in Norway, whether it be CapEx, OpEx, 80% is supported by the government. And so that would be a kind of a start at identified large sequestration side to achieve a large project to reduce the cost of CCUS. That would be the important thing at the initial phase. And for CCS, I think there are 3 different types, as mentioned before. In the case of Ichthys or Abadi, so to reduce CO2 from our business. And the second is CCUS to produce blue hydrogen, in other words, to vary the CO2 generator to produce those. And also CCUS of the injecting the CO2 from other third party. So they are all different. The third is to achieving commercialization of CCUS business. Here, the carbon pricing would be -- introduction would be required. Now specifically, is it JPY 10,000 of the carbon price per ton. And if we say we're going to do this at JPY 8,000, then people will probably come to us. And that would be a kind of the scheme that needs to be established for that type of operation. Now for your second part of your question, hydrogen and methanation, can that be as outstanding as business? As to whether they can be as outstanding as a business, of the 3 points that I mentioned initially, also all companies, technology development, to what extent could the price of clean energy can be lowered? What's -- to what extent can we narrow the price gap? And if the company would like to use the ammonia, hydrogen and it will be outstanding. But in comparison to existing, the oil and gas, it will be more expensive. But initial stages, we need support from the government for the price differentiation, at least initial stage that type of government support will be required in my view.

I have roughly 1 question. By around 2030 or 2050, commercialization targets have been set. At such time, what is going to be the return expectation after commercialization? If you have any, please share them with us.

Yes. Thank you very much for your question. In commercializing clean energy into business, it is very critical matter. And right now, inclusive of other major companies or oil companies, this is something that we discuss with them as well. We like to have a double-digit return at around 10% as a return. If we can secure that, I believe that we can proceed with commercialization. Compared to oil and natural gas business, risk may be smaller potentially. However, we have not established the value chain secured yet. And the large-scale production of the hydrogen and ammonia and CCUS is not well established yet. But compared to renewable energy, we believe that we have higher risk. We talked about WACC. Our target is to secure a double-digit return. Whether we are able to realize that is really based upon the 3 conditions I mentioned earlier. In the trinity and there will be the social penetration based upon these conditions. And based upon these assumptions, we would like to aim for double-digit return.

So we would now like to start the general Q&A session. And Mr. Yamada, will first talk about the financial results as well as the forecast for the full year.

I think we have 30 more minutes or so but thank you for staying with us. I would like to give a brief overview of the financial results for the 9 months ended September 30, 2023, as well as financial forecast for the full year. I'll be very brief as I think you are very familiar with these details. And first of all, at the end of the third quarter and we're making year-on-year comparison, as is always, the oil prices have come down significantly but yen has depreciated quite significantly. So relatively speaking, I think we were in a good environment. And this is data, the Q3 comparison and against the third quarter last year, JPY 13.7 billion of the profit increase. And so the JPY 280 billion was the net income for the third quarter. And this has been the highest level of the third quarter profit. But if you can look at the bottom, the operating loss and nonoperating losses were both loss and these are essentially a reduction in the corporation tax. So the decrease in profit before tax and we made up by corporation tax, ended up with an increase year-on-year. If you look at the left on the sales volume, the sales volume increase because we had Ichthys shutdown last year but the unit price has come down. This is based on oil price, which was made up for by FX but still at the JPY 96.9 billion, and -- but the impairment loss there. So we actually booked the impairment for Prelude, JPY 75.6 billion before tax and about JPY 50 billion after tax. And then as you know, so Ichthys and the borrowing. In comparison, last year the increase in the interest rate was lower, so that was positive. So they all added up to JPY 280.3 billion. Next is the full year forecast on the oil price assumption. And in August, we said $80 but now we have changed that to $82.7, JPY 135 to a dollar was what we have said previously but we are looking at as I said JPY 138.6. For FX, we may be somewhat conservative. Oil price, I think we are more or less in line. And the third line from the bottom, net income is JPY 340 billion. This is the forecast that we have. So JPY 20 billion increase against what we have announced previously. ROE and we've also calculated ROIC, on this occasion ROE is at about 8.7%. And so that's about 8% would be -- what we are saying. And our ROIC is about 8.2%. And this -- our WACC is about 6%. So we are in excess of that level. And as for the result, I think we have ended up at relatively good number. And $80 of oil price means that it's quite high and over the last year, the volatility was very limited. In fact, not much ups and downs. So it was easy to calculate. And also, we can -- normally brent is an international product or when the brent increases, the yen also appreciates. But this year, the increase in oil price and decrease in the [indiscernible] value of Japanese yen occurred at the same time, which is quite unusual. And so we will do JPY 74 of the dividend payment for the year, JPY 100 billion of share buyback. So that's the situation. So this is JPY 320 billion to JPY 340 billion. And the focus is the purple in the middle. So Prelude and large impairment and Ichthys. This 2 and Prelude and Ichthys, they are both Australian and the project impact from the safeguard mechanism, the taxation issue or increase in the interest rate, increasing the discount rate. So we have outlined the 2 project next to each other but with completely different result. For Prelude and enhancement of the environmental -- the regulation, we were forced to take an impairment loss [indiscernible] despite the same environment. And we have also done the same impairment test against the initial -- the budget of previous month and we had expected about JPY 30 billion of decrease. But because we had the increase in production volume for Ichthys and when we take into the cost increase, we have calculated the future production volumes. So we didn't have to impair. So they both had a different result. And so in the end, we are expecting to achieve JPY 340 billion of net income for the full year cash flow. So the JPY 930 billion for the cash flow from operation before exploration investment, the cash flow from investment about JPY 430 billion and free cash flow is about JPY 500 billion. And so this will be used for shareholder returns as well as payback -- pay down of debt. And this is the new ROIC calculation. So if you go look at the middle part and this is what we have announced in November. And this is the segment that we announced based on the securities report, domestic oil and gas and overseas oil and gas and we have taken out Ichthys and oil and gas overseas, others and others. So this is the breakdown. If you look at the net income, domestic JPY 44 billion, Ichthys JPY 300 billion. The overseas oil and gas, JPY 50 billion. This does include Prelude gas. If we exclude that, it's about JPY 60 billion. And other, minus JPY 12.1 billion, it includes renewable energy, hydrogen and CCUS and hydrogen and CCS is majority R&D. So it's an expense and so minus JPY 12.1 billion. So, JPY 340 billion ROIC for the domestic oil and gas. And these are long-termed projects, they have depreciated quite significantly. So we had about 17%, overseas oil and gas, Ichthys, 8.6%. And as to whether this is high or low, it's difficult to evaluate. But our ROIC is 8.2% but it's kind of being dragged along by Ichthys because this is the largest asset that we have. And overseas, the oil and gas is 7.7%, the other is loss. And so on this occasion, we are showing ROIC to you for the very first time. And so for the ROIC, we are at a level in excess of WACC. And so this is a kind of a place where we end up at. And lastly, so we have made a timely disclosure regarding the voluntary application of IFRS. You may have the press release document with you, for the result for this year, we are going to close based on JGAAP and we are going to report to you based on JGAAP for the full year. And we're going to continue to use JGAAP until the AGM. But after AGM and March 2024, at that point in time, we are going to switch to IFRS completely. And so any security reports we are going to be submitting after AGM, they will be based on IFRS. And when we announced the full year result in February, we're going to use JGAAP until AGM, we're going to use JGAAP. But next year onwards, we'll just disclose our numbers based on IFRS and so that is how we intend to proceed going forward. So please refer to the timely disclosure for more details. That completes my explanation. Thank you.

Now we would like to have a Q&A session. Regarding the 4 items on the agenda, which have been explained today and also business performance and account closing and management and other projects and other business lines, any questions are welcome. So first, we would like to receive questions from those who are attending in person in the venue. The person in the front row, please.

From myself regarding the medium- to long-term cash flow forecast, I have a question. Firstly, simply put CapEx. How are you going to forecast the CapEx in the future under the medium- to long-term perspective? If you could give me specific numbers, that will be appreciated. But Abadi FID before FID in mid-2020, the current level will be maintained. But in the latter half of [ 2020 ] can we expect that the CapEx or cash flow will be increased? Well, depending on the operating cash flow, but $80 crude oil price, based upon that assumption and free cash flow may be in [ red ink ] by 2030, do you think -- do you expect it to see [ red ink ] in the free cash flow by 2030? So that kind of rough estimate or image will be appreciated. And [indiscernible] in details, you have explained the project one by one in details. But based upon the progress of each project in the latter half of [ 2020 ] some development will peak, for some of the projects in the latter half of [ 2020 ], that's what I thought. So even as the coincident timing do you still continue to make investment? Or do you postpone some of the investments? Could you please explain the adjustment you may consider for the project of development? Well, I wonder whether this is appropriate to ask but could you please give us a brief explanation, regarding the cash flow forecast, I would like to seek your opinion.

Let me respond. For this fiscal year, cash flow, $80, JPY 930 billion, we needed to review closely. Suppose that the crude oil price is down to $70 or JPY 130, JPY 135 to the dollar. And then by 2030, the operating cash flow will be about in the level of JPY 700 billion, the Ichthys plateau and also stable production at Ichthys, I believe that the cash flow can reach JPY 700 billion or so. When it comes to the investment, of course, maintenance and replacement, also new acquisition of the stakes and interests and what we have to look at most is Abadi. Looking at the peak of the cash out for Abadi, actually, we will not expect the [ red ink ] numbers in the free cash flow. When we do the Ichthys and the [ net DER ratio ] was 0.7 or so. So based on the rough estimate, even with the Abadi, net DER 0.5, 0.3 to 0.5 are the numbers that we reported the other day. We believe that we can within that range. So based upon the $70 for the crude oil price and I think that the investment can be absorbed by the Abadi. Train 3 expansion for Ichthys, this is going to be the further future investments. So the peak will be further into the future. Even if there is a overlapping of the 2 investments but if we can delay a little bit and Ichthys and Abadi investment can be absorbed by cash flow. Of course, the -- on the condition that the crude oil price and also the -- that foreign exchange rate will stay unchanged. So that is the rough estimate we see.

I have another question related to cash. When it comes to the repayment of the interest-bearing borrowings at around about JPY 200 billion. That is the basis you may consider adding further the repayment amount going forward. So do you think that the repayment will be at around the JPY 200 billion? The JPY 200 billion is the cash and deposits or the repayment amount per year of the interest-bearing borrowing?

Well, the contracted -- the repayment and the Ichthys repayment. And yes, that is the ballpark. And JPY 1.4 trillion, maybe a little less than JPY 1.5 trillion. So [ net DER ] with a decrease -- a lot of decrease in the leverage, you don't want to have 0.3x to 0.4x or 0.35x, maybe they're rough estimate.

Yes. I have 2 questions as well, completely different matter. So I would like to ask questions one at a time. First, in regards to Ichthys and Abadi you mentioned this. LNG marketing for the future, whether it be Ichthys, I think it's a 15-year contract. So the renewal for year [ '16 ] onwards must take place somewhere. And for Abadi, you probably have to enter into long-term contract as well. But if we look at Japan alone, then the electricity company or the gas companies, they are somewhat hesitant to enter into long-term contracts for LNG, so Pertamina or Petronas, do you intend to go through them to sell gas to the Asian entities? And then I'm sure there are many companies around the world who want to engage into long-term contract for gas. It should be okay. Is that the view that you're taking? Or even without the long-term contract, would you still be able to secure project finance, do you have that kind of environment that we are able to work in the future? So LNG, at what extent will you be able to enter into a long-term contract? On that basis, how do you intend to raise fund for maybe the train 3 for Ichthys and Abadi? And to the extent that you can share with us information, please do so.

If that's the case, allow me to respond to that. Ichthys, more than 90% was based on long-term contract, majority with some Japanese buyers. We had the Taiwanese buyers as well for part of the gas. But as you know, the Japanese buyers, there are somewhat has that intent into a long-term contract. So not Abadi but -- so when you look at contract with Middle East and European nation, the buyers, they are still entering into long-term contract. So 27-year contract, I think, has been signed in terms of Qatargas. But there are also the concerns about the future as well. So the Japanese buyers tend to be interested about 5- or 10-year contracts. And that was the case in regards to finance for Abadi. And that is something that we need to consider as part of the marketing activity as we go through the FEED process. But Abadi, we are-- it's not going to be a project finance per se but for the LNG portion, we're going to use the trustee borrowing, which is the Indonesian [indiscernible] scheme that we are able to utilize and so establish an escrow account overseas, borrow money and to repay that. And that's the kind of scheme. And so we would require a certain level of long-term contract for that and partner that's Pertamina and Petronas. And so whether it be Malaysia or Indonesia, there are demands in those countries, which we can expect over a long-term period. And so in that regard, we do require a long-term contract for Abadi as well. Of course, the extent would be different but certain level of long-term contract will be required. We will probably will not be able to start Abadi unless we have secured certain level of long-term contracts. So in order for us to obtain a long-term contract, we will negotiate and discuss with Asian buyers in addition to Japanese potential buyers. In the end, so to what extent are they Japanese, to what extent Asian, that would be something that we are -- we will look at as we engage in marketing activity going forward.

The second question is, you talked about what you're going to do as fun things but I'm going to ask about shareholder return. So based on what you have explained thus far and you talked about the free cash flow level and oil price and the FX and the operation aspect would certainly play a significant aspect but hydrogen, ammonia and renewable energy, are you going to make investment in the latter part of [ 2023 ] in these areas. So if that's the case, the -- you have a total return ratio on the target and you have been able to return some of the [indiscernible]. So the amount of the shareholder return that you can do from the cash flow that could potentially come down in the future as you engage in more investment activities. Is that just a unfounded concern, increased ROE and you're going to pay a return based on the profit may not be directly related to cash but even if you invest in the future, you're going to continue to provide that return going forward. And when you have lot of investment project going forward and you probably will have to adjust the return possibly. I don't know. But over the next 5 or 10 years, how are you going to think about the shareholder return? And what type of scheduling that you have, given the fact that you have many upcoming projects, what is your view in that regard?

Allow me to respond to that. Many investment upcoming and this is a matter of dreams. But how much investment are we going to have? Well, it's not a matter that would happen immediately for Abadi. Maybe we may be able to start the FEED work from next year. Normally, a FEED would require 2 years to undertake normally. Then after that, we have to go through the EPC process. And so the investment would come after that hydrogen, CCUS. And for those -- and we haven't even started the FEED for those. And so the actual timing of investment would be in regards to the commercial project, it will be likely in the latter part of [ 2020 ] is when we have large investment. So advanced CCUS business in the case of CCS. But if we set a target of 2030, then 3 or 4 years for construction period, 1 or 2 years for the FEED. And so the stage prior to that will be a preparatory timing. So in that regard, the hydrogen and demonstration project that we'll be building right now or the demonstration project for methanation exclusive of those, the investment peak would come after 2025. And that's my view. Abadi, it is likely to be a little bit later than that. So that's the kind of situation that we are in right now. So if we look at the next number of years, in the midterm plan, well, the next midterm plan 3 years and when we look at the spend after that and above, of course, the oil price and FX would have impact. But unless they change significantly, then whether it be profit or free cash flow, those levels, I don't think will change or that much if the oil price does not change that much. And how are we going to address some dividend? How are we going to make returns to the shareholders? Well, as for next year, as I've said many times, in terms of dividend, it will not be less than this year. So we've already announced that. But for 2 years in the future and beyond. And when we consider the midterm plan, the next midterm plan, we need to take that element into consideration as well. But dividend and shareholder return, of course, allocating profit would be one approach but there is a significant difference to the profit level as well. But that needs to be taken into consideration when we think about our return policy.

I also have 2 questions. My first question is like teaching. Please teach me. Well, based upon the presentation or announcement regarding the adoption of IFRS, what will the potential impact on your financial results by adoption of the IFRS? Could you please give us a brief answer to that? And my second question. Please answer my first question first.

Okay, let me respond to the question about IFRS. Starting from next year financial closing, we will have the IFRS alone. We have spent 4 years for establishing the system and accounting rules and we reached this stage for adoption. ROCE and everything you are seeing globally are adopting the IFRS and our peers also using the IFRS and Ichthys, 70% of the -- our financial numbers are based upon the IFRS accounting. Therefore, it is inevitable for us to switch -- shift to IFRS. What kind of impact do we see on the financial results numbers? As you see and from the breadth to the depth of the company, IFRS and JGAAP and where you see the profits and where you see the different timing of recording the profits. And there is no significant meaning of looking at the impact by different accounting rules. But roughly speaking, based upon my gut feelings, changing, converting into the IFRS, the fixed property, the impairment loss between the JGAAP and IFRS utilizing the difference of the accounting rules and then impairment loss is recorded. And when integrating into the Teikoku Oil and the goodwill was written down. So there will be the changes in the depreciation and amortization. And the PS contract and stake and the PS accounting changing to the stake accounting, because of the changes in the ForEx, this may affect as well. But looking at the ForEx movement and also the interest rate as well, considering all these factors, I don't think that there will be any significant change. But based upon the IFRS compared to numbers and JGAAP and the net profit for the term may be improved slightly. We are currently in the middle of working on this. We have tried on some of the accounting closing. These haven't been audited yet. Therefore, we are not able to disclose any numbers. But looking at these numbers, I don't think that there will be significant impact by adoption of IFRS.

I now remember my first -- second question. Now you talked about the ROIC that has been disclosed for the first time. And overseas on the Ichthys, 8.6% for November. And regarding the initiative for improving the capital efficiency, which was announced in August, capital basis, capital cost 8%, WACC about 6%. So I think that these numbers have been already exceeded. For these numbers, in 2024, these numbers seemed to be flat. And going forward, as has been explained earlier, whether this can be satisfactory to the investors you commented but what kind of level are you going to target? I think that this is going to be incorporated into the next medium-term management plan. Could you please give us your rough estimate? So based upon the ROIC, the invested capital and also the numerator [indiscernible] will determine the numerator, the profit is affected by the FX and oil price. And then when it comes to the invested capital and how are we going to utilize leverage.

So currently, our leverage D/E ratio is 0.3% to 0.5%. So 0.3% or lower, we don't want it to lower further down from 0.3% but above 0.5% and because of the Abadi investment, I think that we are kind of hesitating to go beyond 0.5%. So between 0.3% and [ 0.5% ] and then [ 0.8% to 0.9% ] will be, the constant number we will be able to achieve based upon the assumption that the oil price will stay the same. And this has been pointed out, the what kind of the shareholder equity cost, capital cost. We are saying that 8% -- around 8%. But because of the volatility -- volatile business you don't want to satisfy with the 8%. Of course, that is true. So if there are opportunities we would like to further improve. But what is controllable -- is only about leverage. So how should we view this -- so 0.3% up to 0.5%. And then I will say that, that is going to be the range where we will be staying.

I have 2 questions. And if I could ask a question at a time. First question is concerning the hydrogen or CCUS or the methanation. What's the ROIC or the investment efficiency you're thinking of? So having listened to the presentation, they are likely to be achieved but the government support or you need to go through a technological breakthrough. And so if these conditions are not met by chance, then there could potentially be the possibility of profitability not increasing. But are you going to still make an investment as a total energy company or are you going to focus on profitability in making decision about investing towards new business. So that's the first question. If you could share with us your thoughts in this regard.

Well, in this regard, that is a kind of a headache for me. And there is a difference between commercial project and the demonstration project like [indiscernible] the hydrogen or methanation that we are doing. This is a demonstration project that we are not worried about profitability, it can be loss-making. Of course, they would be booked as R&D expenditure. But even for the hydrogen and CCS, when they become commercial project, then the money required will be completely different. It's likely to be more than JPY 100 billion, several hundred billion yen of investment could be needed. If that's the case, then the VPs of the different businesses have given explanation before but may not be to the level oil and gas. But we need a certain level of profitability. Without a certain level of profitability, we will not be able to reach FID. So hydrogen or CCS, probably to double digit would be 1 target and for renewable energy and as Mr. Kawano has explained before, we are trying to change the business model to try to target the area where we have a higher profitability. And so in that regard, we are pursuing profitability. Unless those preconditions are met, then even if it is a new project, we may not reach FID. It may be difficult for us to reach FID in that regard.

And the second question is the ESG and the social capital for the [indiscernible] related to Abadi on Inpex. I think you have engaged in a lot of activity to engage with the local community and communication with the First Nation has gone quite well. That was quite clear from the presentation but how are you going to replicate that for Abadi project? How are you going to execute that? Any thoughts on this at this point in time?

Now this is a very good question. Thank you for that question. So human rights and relationship with the local community, this is one of our highest priority for us -- for Ichthys project in Australia. If we are able to brag, one of the Australian issue is as to whether we are able to receive approval for the environmental plan and the environmental plan, the many companies have struggled to obtain that -- the approval. That is because the consultation with the local community has not been conducted sufficiently and that's the reason why the approval has not been provided. But for us and for Ichthys, with regarding 2 new drilling and we probably were able to obtain these approval, the quickest in Australia and the drilling for CCUS, we should be able to obtain environmental plan approval in the near future from the regulating authority. We expect that. And the background to that is that whether it be the indigenous people, the aboriginal people, we have provided thorough, the explanation and to gain their understanding since we have engaged in that and this has been considered very highly in Australia. And I think others are quite envious of what we have done so far how to replicate this in Abadi? And as Mr. Watanabe has explained before, in order for us to carry out Abadi, the biggest advantage that we have at Inpex is experience at Ichthys, whether it be technological element, whether it be the local community relationship or whether it be the government relationship, the experience and the knowledge that we have obtained from Ichthys could be transferred to Abadi. This is one of the major things that we are going to work on, whether it be FEED. So those people who are involved in the Ichthys feed, Ichthys construction, we are going to utilize them in Abadi. We're doing that already and also responding to the local community. Indonesia, has an Indonesian way of doing things, of course. But the experience that we have gained in Ichthys, we want to transfer that well so that in Abadi as well, we want to be able to establish as a strong relationship. More than half of this would be effort for the future but we want to make that maximum method in that regard. And in this area, we have a lot of experience and a lot of confidence to address this matter.

I'm sorry, this is very long and abstract story. Now the 5 net zero businesses, suppose that all these businesses will go successfully and then commercialization and then the 4-digit [indiscernible] or millions of dollars will be necessary. But it will be difficult for a company like you to do everything. Then the return can be the one of the selection criteria. And then suppose that all the projects will bring about the desirable return, what will be the other criteria or concept for applicable -- being applicable to these net zero businesses? How are you going to prioritize your investments? Maybe it is too early to ask but what can be the strength of each project that you are considering? Or what is your thought on this?

Well, I believe that we needed to consider various things. First, suppose that all the projects will bring us the good return, these will be all feasible and viable. But I don't think that this will be possible. So out of these projects, I think that the project, which can be commercialized will be selected. Ammonia project, for example, as I said earlier, in Houston, Texas in America, we have the ammonia project and we also have other green ammonia project in the U.S. UAE as well, we are trying to develop or invest in the green ammonia and Abadi in Indonesia as well.

So are there so much demand?

Well, currently, we do not see so much demand. But based upon the current level of demand and then some of those projects will be established but quite selective. And suppose that ammonia demand will be explosively increased and then there are various projects that are expected to have higher profitability. And then as has been mentioned, something problematic situation may arise and then we will consider economics of the project and also relationship with the local community and the world and oils and other securities will be considered in making a judgment. But before that, the various projects or even one of those project that needs to be established and ramped up and that is our current challenge, for the sometime foreseeable future. We'd like to put our efforts into realizing that. And the challenge for us is whether or not we are able to secure a long-term demand, ammonia, hydrogen and CCUS as well. This is the common share challenge. So in order to realize that, we are going to make utmost efforts.

Well, the 5 net zero business areas, maybe not limiting you to the 5 projects or businesses. Well, whether or not any of these business can be successful or not. So in the company, I don't think that you needed to necessarily prioritize these business areas. But if you consider the strength of Inpex, which area would you like to utilize such strength? Or in other areas where you would like to ask other companies to do. So in -- among these 5 net zero businesses, do you think that there is any priority areas where you are expecting to utilize strength? Or what is the more important areas based upon the strengths or what Inpex has, may not link or may not affect where among these 5 areas of business you are going to focus on? Well, if I may ask this again. So where would you like to put more focus on? Or are you going to have the omnidirectional stance? Or are there any specific area of business you would like to put more focus on in the future?

Well, let me see, how the energy situation in the future is going to develop? If you think about the secondary energy, electricity and heat, are being considered. Generally speaking, electrification is taking place and will be promoted further. So how electricity can be made cleaner and heat hydrocarbon and hydrogen and ammonia will be converted from those fuels and these are the 2 major trends. And the oil and natural gas company Inpex has been and such heat source will be replaced to hydrogen and others. And I think that, that is relatively speaking, the area of strength for Inpex. Are we able to stand only on this business, thinking about the current trend towards electric -- electricity, electrification and also renewable energy. And in the future, this will be developed into green hydrogen. Then considering that, we believe that we have to start to be engaged in that area as well, considering the strength of Inpex, blue hydrogen and also the switching, conversion of the demand for heat. And on the other hand, we needed to be engaged in some kind of the renewable energy and so forth. But are we going to be omnidirectional or are we going to prioritize on the area of our strengths? We may be selective in the future. But right now, we are putting ourselves in the wider range of business areas, saying the 5 new net zero business areas.

Understood. Thank you very much. [Statements in English on this transcript were spoken by an interpreter present on the live call.]