Investis Holding SA ($IREN)

Welcome, everyone, to the Investis Group Full Year 2025 Results. My name is Nadia, and I'll be your moderator today. [Operator Instructions] I will now hand over to your host, Stephane Bonvin, CEO, to begin. Please go ahead.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for joining us today and for your interest in Investis Holding. With me on the call are our CFO, Rene Hasler; and our Investor Relations, Laurence Bienz. Let me briefly give you the agenda for today's presentation. I will start with an introduction, followed by a short review of the key highlights of the year and then share some perspective on the market trends, particularly in the regions where we operate. After that, Rene will take you through the financial overview in more detail. I will then return at the end with a few remarks on the outlook before the Q&A session. So 2025 has been a very strong year for Investis but more importantly, it marks the successful completion of a strategic repositioning that we initiated 2, 3 years ago. We made a deliberate decision to simplify the group and focus entirely on our core business, residential real estate investment in Lake Geneva region. The sale of the service business was not an opportunistic move. It was a structural decision aimed at creating a simpler and more resilient company fully supported by recurring rental income. That decision came with a clear challenge. We had to rebuild quickly the cash flow that the services division had generated. Through disciplined capital allocation, well-timed acquisition at very attractive yield, we have achieved that objective faster than anticipated. Today, the group is built on a stronger and more predictable recurring income base. The quality of our earnings has improved and the visibility of our cash flow has increased significantly. As a direct consequence, we are in a position to increase the dividend to CHF 3 per share. It reflects the sustainable earnings capacity of our portfolio. Operationally, revenue increased strongly in '25 and our rental income reached CHF 79.8 million compared with the CHF 64.4 million the previous year. At the same time, the value of our real estate portfolio increased to approximately CHF 2.24 billion, confirming the quality and attractiveness of our residential assets. Our strategic objective, as I said last year, remains to reach CHF 100 million in rental income. We have not yet reached that goal. However, based on our current balance sheet and once the building currently under renovation or partially vacant are fully stabilized and relet, we expect to reach approximately CHF 90 million in stabilized rental income without any additional acquisition. In other words, a significant portion of our future growth is already in our existing portfolio. At the same time, the year was marked by tighter financing conditions and pressure on lending margins. In this environment, we have been able to successfully negotiate and secure 2 significant credit facility with our main banking partners under attractive condition. This is reflected in our average cost of debt, which stood at 0.88% at year-end, confirming both the quality of our balance sheet and the strength of our banking relationship. In that environment, our conservative loan-to-value ratio of around 28% is a competitive advantage. Our low leverage is not defensive positioning. It gives us strategic flexibility. It allows us to act when opportunities arise to absorb volatility in financing market and if appropriate, to rotate assets in a market where valuation remain attractive. So turning now to the broader environment. Our perspective remains fundamentally macro driven. The Swiss National Bank has brought policy rates back to 0 as we announced it 1 year ago, and the Swiss francs remains strong against both the euro and the U.S. dollar and global uncertainty persists. Should the Swiss franc strength begin to impact more on the export economy, a return to negative interest cannot be excluded. With the ongoing conflict involving Iran, some market participants expect that rising energy price could trigger a new wave of inflation and potentially lead to higher interest rates. Our assessment is somewhat different. In our view, the most vulnerable link in this scenario is Europe. As a sustained increase in energy cost would likely weighs heavily on European industry and economic activity. In such an environment, Europe could face a period of stagflation, combining weaker economic growth with persistent inflationary pressure. If the conflict would continue for several months, this could push the European economy into a recessionary phase. And once the situation stabilize, the ECB may need to lower interest rate to support the recovery. Such a move would likely weaken the euro further. And this would place the SNB in a difficult position as a weaker euro typically leads to additional appreciation pressure on the Swiss francs. In that context, the SNB might be forced to respond with a more accommodative stance. As a result, we currently see a higher probability of Swiss interest rate moving back to negative territory than increasing materially from current levels. With this view, we remain very comfortable with our financing structure and our relatively short debt duration, which position us well in a potentially declining interest rate environment. Beyond this macro consideration, the structural fundamental of the residential market in the Lake Geneva region remain exceptionally strong. We are operating in a structurally imbalanced market, sustained demographic growth, limited supply, lengthy permit process and decreasing accessibility to homeownership. This structural tension continue to support rental demand and rental growth. These are not short-term effects. They are long-term structural drivers. So with that introduction, let me now walk shortly through the highlights of the year and then the market trends. To highlight, 2025 was, as I said, a year of strong and sustained results for Investis, reflecting the improving earnings power and stability of our portfolio. I will not go through all the figures in detail. Rene will come back to this in more detail in a moment. What is important to highlight, however, is that these results clearly confirm the strength of our business model and the resilience of the real estate market in the Lake Geneva region. So market trends. So it is important to understand the market environment in which we operate. The next slide, Page 6, illustrates several structural drivers shaping the residential market in the Lake Geneva region. Of course, the first key driver is demographic growth. So in 2025, the population of the canton Geneva increased again by roughly 1.3% or about 7,000 inhabitants. The canton also recorded a strong growth, plus 1%. And this population increase is largely driven by positive migration, which continue to support demand for housing. At the same time, the supply, so the construction activity of new housing remain constrained. This is due to several factors, limited land availability, complex zoning regulation and as I said also earlier, long permitting process. As a result, the region continued to experience a structural imbalance between supply and demand. So regulation on the one hand, supply is limited due to regulation and construction constraints. And on the other hand, the attractive corporate tax environment in the Lake Geneva region, particularly Vaud and Geneva, continue to attract international company and fuel population growth. So regarding the capital market, I already commented in my introduction, but the structural strength of the Swiss francs continue to generate deflationary pressure in Switzerland, which keeps interest rates structurally very low. Given the growing macroeconomic divergence between Switzerland and Europe, we believe, as I said earlier, that the risk of Swiss interest rate returning to negative territory is higher than the risk of an increase from current level. So next slide, the residential market in the Lake Geneva region. As you can see, vacancy rates remain extremely low, below 0.5% overall despite increased construction activity in recent years. At the same time, housing affordability remains a structural issue, which will likely continue to weigh on market liquidity in the long term, while reinforcing the importance of rental market. Another key factor is that new residential development in Geneva is structurally limited. Land availability is scarce and regulatory process remain complex, which restricts the ability to significantly increase housing supply. And regarding the job cuts at certain international organization in Geneva, it could temporarily add some housing supply, but we do not expect this to materially change the overall market balance. And finally, on the commercial side, the conversion projects are gaining momentum as the transformation of office building into residential unit becomes an increasingly attractive solution to address the housing shortage. Investment market. Institutional demand for residential real estate in Switzerland remain extremely strong. Last year, we have seen significant fundraising by real estate fund and institutional SPVs. They rose CHF 9 billion last year, much higher than the last record of '21 and the level was CHF 5 billion, and which has translated into sustained investment activity in '25 and will continue in '26. At the same time, the scarcity of high-quality residential assets continue to create competitive pressure on yields. In other words, demand for prime residential assets continue to exceed supply. As a result, we just saw end of last month the sale of a residential portfolio in Geneva at an average gross yield of 2.8%. And this environment continued to support strong valuation for high-quality residential portfolio. So the next slide illustrates vacancy rate across Switzerland and the evolution on the last 6 years. What is particularly interesting is that the housing shortage is no longer limited to a few regions. It has become a nationwide phenomenon. However, the shortage is particularly pronounced in the Lake Geneva region where vacancy rates remain among the lowest in the country. And for residential investors like investees, this translates in very high occupancy rate and sustained rental demand. Let me now turn to construction activity in the next slide in the canton of Geneva. As you can see on the chart on the left, the number of apartments under construction has increased significantly over the past decade. By the third quarter of '25, there were roughly 8,000 apartments under construction in the canton of Geneva, which is broadly in line with the 6-year average. What is particularly interesting, however, is that despite this above average construction activity, vacancy rates have remained extremely low. This clearly illustrates the strength of demand in the region. Absorption rates remain strong. Supported by continued demographic growth and immigration, which continue to drive housing demand in the Lake Geneva region. And at the same time, a large part of the canton remaining loans has already been used by construction projects. As a result, the focus will slowly shift on optimizing existing assets through redevelopment, vertical extension or the conversion of office building. This trend is particularly relevant in Geneva, where the structural housing shortage continue to create opportunities for value creation through asset repositioning and conversion. And we see this as an opportunity for investees. Let me now turn to the evolution of housing supply in Switzerland by rent segment. As you can see on the chart, Page 11, the overall supply of rental apartment has declined significantly over the past 2 years, particularly in the more affordable segment. At the same time, supply in the higher-end category has increased slightly, which reflects a shift in new construction towards higher-end product. This has two important implications. First, the decline in affordable housing supply suggests continued upward pressure on rents in the private residential sector. Second, new construction is increasing focus on smaller units, which structurally achieve higher rents per square meter compared to the larger apartments. This dynamic is contributing to a 2-speed market. On the one hand, existing tenants benefit from relatively lower in-place rents. And on the other hand, new tenants face significantly higher market rents. This also leads to what we call a lock-in effect where tenants prefer to stay in their current apartment simply because moving would mean paying a significantly higher rent. Overall, this reinforced the structural imbalance in the market and support long-term rental growth. So the next slide puts the Swiss real estate market into a broader capital market perspective. By the end of '25, the yield on the 10-year government bond had fallen to around 0.3%. And in that environment, prime residential assets in Geneva still offer a risk premium of roughly 200 basis points over government bonds. This combination of yield stability, strong fundamentals and limited supply continue to make Swiss residential real estate very attractive for long-term investors. So the next slide, this is our -- I call it our business model. This slide shows the evolution of one of our assets located on Rue du Nant of Geneva, which we originally acquired in December '98. And I'm presenting it since our IPO in 2016. And as you can see on the chart, at the time of the IPO, the gross rental income was around CHF 623,000. And today, it has increased to approximately CHF 814,000. This represents a like-for-like annual growth of around 2.7%, which is fully in line with our business model. What is important here is that this growth has been achieved organically through active asset management, and the gradual capture of rental potential. And as we will see later in the presentation, this is directly linked to our rental reserve, which remains around 15% across the residential portfolio and has been relatively stable since the IPO. This means that the market itself continued to grow over time while we progressively capture this potential. At the same time, if you look at the bar on the chart, you can see that the fair value of the asset has more than doubled over the past 10 years. So this example perfectly illustrate our strategy, steady rental growth supported by structural market dynamics combined with long-term value creation. So, the next slide summarizes why Investis occupies a strong position in the Swiss real estate market. First, we operate primarily in region where there is a structural shortage of housing. Second, we focus on the middle segment of the residential market, which offers stable and resilient demand. And third, we maintain a very disciplined balance sheet, which provides strategic flexibility. And these elements together create a very strong foundation for long-term value creation. So now I would like to hand over to Rene, who will walk you through the financial results in more detail.

Thank you, Stephane. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Also from my side, let me just briefly show you the excellent results that we achieved as well in 2025. On the summary page, this illustrates the financial summary of the value creation of the Investis business model, which leads not only to a strong balance sheet with still 64% in equity, but also strong cash flows that supports the higher dividend payment that is once more well earned and covered. Maybe just one figure to highlight on this page, the very last one. Residential properties, we have a vacancy rate of 1%. So actually, we have no vacancy. As you know, what this figure is illustrating. In our income statement, you see the boost in the revenue. We have an increase of 24% to roughly CHF 80 million in rental income, which leads to CHF 53 million in EBITDA before revaluation and disposals. This is our top key figure that we look very closely on a weekly basis, if not daily. And this shows excellently our operational performance. There, we could increase this key number by 40% compared to last year. Income from revaluation, once more, the second time of the 2024 figure above CHF 100 million. And this shows very well our low-risk profile in the portfolio and the high quality of our assets, primarily residential in the Lake Geneva region, as you know. The other figures you have seen, I don't need to comment. Very nice net profit of CHF 152 million, which is the result of the key elements that I illustrated just before. Looking at revenue in more details. As you could see here, that illustrates the shift from '21 to '25, where in this period where we had some sales or disposals at the beginning, but we catch up rapidly the sold revenues and are stronger than ever with CHF 80 million in revenue this year. Like-for-like rental growth, 0.9%. This is somehow not a surprise. As you know, we have 2 main contributor to the like-for-like rental growth, which is, on the one hand, tenant turnover that is still in place year-on-year. We profit from that with increasing rents. And the second element is the CPI-linked rental contracts. And in a 0% inflation environment, of course, we have no CPI adjustments. But that also protects us from fluctuations of the national reference rate that decreased in the last 2 years, while our rents increased. We still confirm once again the like-for-like rental growth target, which is 1% to 2% for the residential properties. Page 19, short characteristic of our portfolio. Residential, mainly Geneva, but also canton of Vaud and the middle segment, which is 1 to 3-room apartments. This is the clear focus of Investis and the most demanded apartments in the region, if not also in other regions of Switzerland. Countercyclical investment and divestment decisions. We talked about that a year ago. It continues. As you could see, the '22 and '24 [indiscernible] we discussed in details. '25 is somehow a prudent year for Investis. We kept our firepower for the months to come when again, we are looking for attractive acquisitions to create value in the portfolio and for our shareholders. So in 2025, the increase was somehow only in brackets, CHF 243 million. But on the other hand, we had some -- I want more significant revaluation gains, CHF 130 million in 2025. About 2/3 of this is backed by lower discount rates by the valuation expert, CBRE. And the remaining part is about 50-50 allocated to acquisitions, good acquisitions that we also did in 2025, which contributed some CHF 20 million to that figures. And the remaining part is higher cash flows in the portfolio that drives valuation. So after all, since the IPO, we could account CHF 654 million in revaluations year-to-date. Vacancy rate is always a big topic. But the 2% figure that we show on the face of the reporting is somehow needs some explanation in more important is the residential properties where we still have literally no vacancy. The 1% illustrates the base vacancy that we need. That's on the one hand, due to renovation that we perform in the portfolio or that at year-end, we had some changes of tenants. And of course, then the apartment is for 2 weeks also vacant, and that is illustrated at [ 4% ]. Same figures for Geneva and Vaud, no big differences, 0.9% Geneva, 1.2% in the canton of Vaud. Where is that additional 1% vacancy coming from? That is 2 properties that we purchased in '25 and '24. You know them as we speak about them last year and in the half year. It's [indiscernible] and it's Swiss. And these 2 very well acquired properties with a cash yield of above 6.5% had some vacancies, still have some vacancies, and we are not afraid of that. But since we didn't pay for it, it's not a problem, but we see good opportunities going forward to use these vacancies to transform that into value and to higher rents. Rent potential, Stephane pointed in that direction already, 15%. This represents the rent potential by -- illustrated by calculated by CBRE on our portfolio, meaning that if all rental contracts could be renewed at market level, rents would increase by 15%. In '25, we still had 8% tenant turnover, a little bit below the long-term average, probably also a first effect of that so-called locked-in effect, but we still have good turnover and therefore, expect again, rental increases going forward. Balance sheet, somehow a very simple discussion. We have the portfolio. We have this 28% in financial debt, CHF 600 million. But on the other hand, the very strong equity, 64% equity ratio. So a very sound balance sheet ready to grow going forward. But what I would like to point out is what happened in these last 5 years, exactly before we started the transformation of Investis. As you could see, we increased the portfolio by CHF 500 million without increasing our financial liabilities. They stayed -- they are even lower, CHF 23 million. But on the other side, equity increased as well by almost CHF 500 million. So value creation as its best backed by our countercyclical investment and divestment decisions that lead to these effects. Maybe one word on trust's low debt situation. As you can see, we replaced the bonds with bank loans. We have credit lines available with our banking partner of CHF 600 million. And we use all 3 sources for financing, which is still the capital market with the 2 outstanding bonds. We have these credit lines with Swiss banks and some private placements on short maturity. The interest rate as a result of the short-term financing and also following our view on where the interest will go. That is why we have not yet printed a new bond this year as some other companies did. We are still confident that we can finance us with better conditions going forward. That's why we are still a little prudent as well on this side. But still a very nice interest rate at year-end with 0.88% interest cost. That is my closing remark. Thank you very much, and see you later in the Q&A.

Thank you, Rene. So let me conclude this presentation with our outlook for '26. So we expect continued growth in rental income, supported first by the assets we acquired in '25, which will contribute fully over the coming year. Secondly, we also remain very active on the acquisition side. We continue to review a significant number of opportunities, submit offer, and we expect to complete additional acquisition during the year. At the same time, we still have a rental potential of around 15% across our residential portfolio, which provides a clear and visible source of organic growth. And from a market perspective, the fundamentals, as I pointed out earlier, remain very strong. Demand for housing in Lake Geneva region continue to be supported by the strong immigration and demographic growth. As a result, vacancy rates are expected to remain very low. And overall, Investis is very well positioned to execute our strategy and to continue to deliver sustainable growth over time as we have demonstrated in the recent years. So thank you very much for your attention. We are now happy to open the floor for the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] First question from [indiscernible].

[indiscernible].

We can hear you.

So a couple of questions. First, for the CFO on Slide 17, you just highlighted that revenue and EBITDA are the 2 key numbers you're looking at on a daily basis. So when I'm calculating an EBITDA margin, it's more or less 67% and up from 59% in '24. So I was wondering, when I'm modeling investors, is the 67% a number I can use in the coming years? And just an additional question, this financial gain of CHF 11.1 million from the disposal of the PHM Group. Is this included in the EBITDA? I this without disposals? And -- but just the next question on Slide 21. I've seen this revaluation gain is probably 45% of the portfolio, so quite high. I did the rough calculation. So CHF 75 million out of a lower discount rate, roughly CHF 20 million from acquisition and the remaining CHF 17 million from higher cash flow. So it's always hard for analysts to get a little bit of feel how revaluation gains could develop in the coming years. So I was just wondering if you can just give us a rough estimate.

Okay. I try to be as precise as possible. So the EBITDA margin, yes, you can take that as a future reference since our business will continue as it is currently. This is a fair assumption. Financial gains of CHF 11 million that is in the financial result is below EBIT and also below EBITDA is not included in these figures. Actually, financial result, you see the CHF 5.6 million that is an income and net income. So it's CHF 11 million gain and some CHF 5 million, CHF 6 million interest cost. And revaluation gains, yes, your calculation is about right, CHF 75 million. This represents the 11 basis points lower discount rate primarily in the residential portfolio. And as a guidance, you can assume if only the discount rate would change without any other change in the modeling of the DCF valuation, then the 10 basis points leads to about CHF 70 million in revaluation gains.

The next question goes to Philippe Züger.

Yes. This is Philippe Züger from ZKB. You mentioned during the presentation, the current acquisition in the market of Geneva with a yield on 2.8%. So actually, I was wondering regarding your acquisition strategy, at which yield are you able to buy any properties? Or do you see opportunities?

Yes. This -- I think you know which portfolio it was. It was an average yield of this 2.8% because it was 1 building really center of [indiscernible] at 2.6% and some at 3.15%. So I think we are now more going on unique assets, so not a portfolio. And I think that we are still able to get properties around 4%. But this is going to be more canton Vaud or one asset, not for a portfolio. And of course, if we enter in a sale process like this portfolio, there we have no chance against mainly the [indiscernible]. But we show it during the past year that we were able to get direct access to assets at competitive and very interesting price.

Okay. So I guess this 4% are purely residential.

Yes. If it's office, then of course, it's much higher. But actually, we are not looking for more office.

Okay. Second question goes to that commercial exposure. How much of this 22%, how much of this exposure are you able to transfer into residential in the future? And then I would like to have what would be the yield on cost then?

Yes. I give you -- so we have one building. The office in March, this we're going to keep as office. In the building that we really want to transform. The first one is in [indiscernible]. This we are already on an ongoing process that's actually administration office of [indiscernible]. They're going to move. We don't know exactly because they have a 5 years contract with an option of 2, but we already started the process to get the permit to transform into residential. The cost approximately to transform this would be around CHF 1,200 per square meter. And we expect for this building to get roughly CHF 450 per square meter. As we transform office to residential, we don't have control on the rent. So this would lead to an interesting yield compare because actually the rent is CHF 220. The second one would be Route Suisse [indiscernible] in Versoix. There already the seller is started and there was already a permit to get apartment instead of office. We already -- the issue we have now is that the building is full. We have another property in Vandelle that's really on the train station of Versoix. And we -- the day we have some vacancy rate there, we will try to push the actual tenant of the other building there. I think in Route Suisse, where we are a little bit suffering from vacancy are parking space. But the office, they are all [indiscernible]. But that's also the goal to transform it. Margin, we're going to keep it as office as it is. And almost -- we have the building in Lausanne where we are still waiting -- we have the [indiscernible] permit, but we are still waiting the canton permit and this is going to be apartments from hotel to apartments. So these are almost -- we have some large objects, but we don't have that much office building.

Okay. And after this transformation process, the exposure to commercial will decrease by how many basis points, what percentage point?

And it depends on new valuation.

I understand, but roughly.

Maybe half of it.

Okay. And then maybe the last question goes to the dividend strategy. So how much of the current or of the future FFO you would like to pay out? Is there any changes?

So the dividend strategy is still the same. The Board of Directors have not discussed that further. And as you know, we pay at least 80% on the average FFO over 3 years, and we are fully in line with that dividend strategy.

[Operator Instructions] A follow-up from [indiscernible].

Yes, it should work now. Yes. Just a follow-up question on Slide 22, the rent potential. When I'm looking at the H1 presentation, so the rent potential was plus 12%. Might be that this is for the overall portfolio, but now it says plus 15%, and you are highlighting residential properties. What do you see the moving factor going up from 12% to 15%?

The 12% was a blended rate, including commercial. And since the commercial is -- has increased a little bit, it doesn't make sense to show the blended rate. That's why it's now clearly mentioned it's only the residential properties, 15%. It was 15% before. Commercials had some 5% potential of this number is not part of our strategic business model with the like-for-like rental growth. That's why we made it very clear, the residentials have 15% as before.

Yes. Just a follow-up. I mean, I do like the story, right, so that there is a chance to increase the rental income. But when I'm looking at the tenant turnover, I mean, it was 8%, long-term average 10%. And I guess the higher the market rents get, the lower will be the turnover and the tenant turnover. So from that point of view, I mean...

Historically, last 10 years, around 10%. I don't see any signs why this should change dramatically going forward. I mean people move in [indiscernible].

What's very important to understand is you have 45% of the population are from abroad. So -- and also with all these international companies there, you have quite a high turnover. Historically, also when it's tough to find an apartment, people are moving. But of course, as I explained it, we have these 2 type of tenants with this locked-in effect. And of course, we don't have only the very low rent that leave is -- it depends. It's completely you can have also all people leaving the -- for many reasons, the apartment, the flat, and then we can really -- we have a huge potential. But as we show it also, the market is always increasing. And even we had a tenant who entered 3 years ago. Now when he leaves, we can also increase a little bit the rent.

The next question goes to Holger Frisch.

Holger Frisch from ZKB. Can you hear me?

Yes.

Okay. Great. I have three questions and I'll take them one by one. So first one would be on the rental growth that slowed to 0.9% in 2025 from the 2.0% in 2024, so which is below your target. So given that more than 70% of the contracts are indexed to CPI and CPI has moderated, what should we expect for the like-for-like growth in 2026? And what should we expect for the funds from operation development in 2026?

So we do one by one. Okay. So what you can expect, as I said, CPI is in a 0% environment, rather low, if not 0. then you can expect the same 1% for 2026, which is coming from the tenant turnover. By the way, last year, you mentioned 2% as well there, residential was at 1%.

Yes. Okay. Fine. And about the funds from operations?

I'll let you do the mathematics yourself.

Okay. Then about the commercial portfolio, which stands at 22% of the overall portfolio right now. Could you share details of the leases that are coming up for renewal this year and next year? And so what percentage is due and how are the negotiations going? And what rent levels can we expect here?

We expect the same rent levels in the commercial renewals. And there are a normal turnover in tenants in the commercial parts, but most of them will be renewed with the previous tenant.

Maybe just a remark is one building that we have in center of Geneva [indiscernible], there we had one tenant who left, so the [ Garage Renault ], and we could rent there 50% more there with [indiscernible], but that's more retail than office. So it depends when you are quite center location, we have also very often office that on the first and second floor that also we transform into apartments.

Okay. And what's the overall percentage of the rental contracts that are coming up for [indiscernible].

I'm just searching the annual report because we have that number in the notes. I'll come back to that until you ask this third question.

Okay. So the third one would be about the debt level. So you have CHF 626 million in debt and CHF 526 million are due within the next 12 months. Can you walk us through the specific refinancing plan for the next 12 months? So which instruments will be rolled and what expected costs? That would be helpful.

So it's very easy. The bank loans are renewed on a monthly basis with the banks. So there is no renewal process. It's just an ongoing. And we stick to the 1 month maturity as we don't see the need to go long. And the bond is coming to maturity in October. So we look at the market conditions right now since Friday 2 weeks that Mr. Trump opened or closed rather the bond market for us. I'm sure you have seen that the interest cost increased by 25 basis points. So in this little iron crisis, we will probably not be able to issue our next bond, but we plan to do it latest in September.

Okay. And what about private placement? Will you continue to roll that over?

That is not on us to decide. It's the investor that decide whether they are rolled over. We just renewed the 2 private placements in the first quarter. And last Friday, we added another one for CHF 20 million.

It looks like we have no further questions. I'll hand the call back over to Stephane for any closing comments.

So thank you for your attention and for your interest in our company, and we wish you all a very good day. Thank you.

Thank you very much. See you. Bye-bye.

Thank you. This now concludes today's call. Thank you all for joining, and you may now disconnect your lines.