Iochpe-Maxion S.A. (MYPK3) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the video conference regarding Iochpe-Maxion's Third Quarter 2024 Results. I'm Rodrigo Caraca, the company's Investor Relations Manager, and I'll be conducting today's video conference. Present at the video conference, we have Mr. Marcos Oliveira, CEO; and Mr. Renato Salum, CFO. We would like to inform you that this video conference is being recorded and will be made available on the company's IR website where the presentation is available. For those who need simultaneous interpreting, this tool is available so you check on the globe-shaped icon at the lower portion of your screen. When you select it, choose your preferred language, which is Portuguese or English. Those listening to the video conference in English, we have the option of muting the original audio in Portuguese by clicking on mute original audio. For the Q&A session, we encourage you to speak up through the Q&A icon on the bottom of your screen. By default, your name will be announced so that you can ask your questions live. A prompt to activate your microphone will appear on the screen. Before proceeding, we would like to clarify that any statement that may be made during the video conference regarding the company's business prospects, projections, and operational and financial targets constitute beliefs and assumptions of Iochpe-Maxion's management, as well as information currently available from the company. Forward-looking statements are not a guarantee of performance, involve risks, uncertainties, and assumptions as they refer to future events and therefore depend on circumstances that may or may not occur. I would like now to invite Marcos Oliveira, CEO, to speak.

Good morning and welcome to Iochpe-Maxion's third quarter results video conference. The third quarter of 2024 once again saw a recovery in profitability. The good performance of volumes in Brazil, along with the adjustments of price to the cost of our products and productivity gains, stood up to the falls in automotive production seen in Europe and North America. Despite worsening expectations for vehicle productions in Europe, where macroeconomic challenges have negatively impacted the industry, the outlook for Brazil remains positive, mitigating these adverse effects and demonstrating the benefit of the geographical diversification of our business model. The company's net operating revenue grew by 8.4% in the third quarter of '24 compared to the same period last year. The increase is due to the adjustments of prices to the costs of our products, the growth in the company's production volume, and the translation of the results of our sales abroad into what you have as real. Once again, we saw an improvement in gross profit compared to the same period last year, with growth in the third quarter of 3.9% and a gross margin of 12%, or an increase of 2.1%. The improvement is related to the stabilization of raw material prices, improvements in the company's operational efficiency, and better pricing of products due to the inflation seen in recent periods. We were acknowledged again by automakers and industry associations during the third quarter of '24, which proves our commitment to quality, technology, competitiveness, delivery, sustainability, and overall customer satisfaction. As published in our Sustainability Report, we continue to make progress in our efforts to support the decarbonization of this automotive industry, as presented in -- as seen in IAA, the world's largest transportation fair occurring in September in Germany, and we continue to present new products and solutions in transportation and freight for our customers. I'll now move with the slides available in our presentation. Slide #2, we can see industry projections from IHS and LMC Auto. With light vehicles, we can see a projected production of 88 million units in 2024, or a drop of 2% when compared to 2023. When we exclude production in China, we can see a 4% drop in light vehicle production compared to 2023. For 2025, the projection is for a global production of 90 million vehicles, or a growth of approximately 1% when compared to '24. In commercial vehicles, we can see production of 3.3 million vehicles in '24, or a drop of 2% compared to 2023. Again, excluding China from global production, we see a 5% reduction in 2024 compared to the previous year. For '25, we can see a growth projection of 3% compared to 2024. And when we again exclude China from global production, we see a relatively stable year in 2025 if compared to the previous year. On Slide #3, we have the main highlights for the third quarter of '24. Net revenue of BRL 3.98 billion in the third quarter of '24, an increase of 8.4% on the same quarter of the previous year. We had a gross profit of BRL 477 million with a gross margin of 12% in the third quarter, an increase of 31.9% and 2.1% compared to the third quarter of '23. Our EBITDA showed an increase of 47.4% in recurring EBITDA in the third quarter of '24 with an EBITDA margin of 11.2%, an increase of 3 percentage points compared to the same quarter last year. Net profit of BRL 109.2 million in the third quarter of '24. Reduction in financial leverage, reaching 2.59 fold in the third quarter of 2024 compared to 2.85 in the third quarter of '23 and 2.97 in the second quarter of '24. We had a liquidity ratio of 2.9 fold in the third quarter of '24 compared to 2 fold in the third quarter of '23. Slide 4 shows company's consolidated operating revenue. We reached BRL 3.982 million in the third quarter of '24, an increase of 8.4%. In the third quarter of '24, we see a positive exchange rate variation of BRL 344.1 million compared to the third quarter of 2023. Over the first 9 months of 2024, we have achieved a consolidated operating revenue of [ BRL 11.423 million ], a slight drop of 0.4% compared to the first 9 months of '23. Now looking at revenue per product, we can see some growth in the share of structural components for commercial vehicles and also a combined growth in commercial vehicles compared to the third quarter of 2023. Now in revenue per customer, Slide #6, we can see the impact on the dynamics of the different markets and the different segments with a drop in the production of light and commercial vehicles in Europe and the impact also on the North American market, while we can also see growth in the production of light and commercial vehicles in Brazil, resulting in an impact on company's revenue per customer. Slide #7, see the operating performance of South America. We've reached a net operating revenue of BRL 1.201 billion in the third quarter of '24, which means an increase in 18.5% compared to the same quarter of the previous year. We see an increase in South America's share coming from 27.6% in the third quarter and heading to 30.1% in the third quarter of '24. Strong production growth in the light and commercial vehicle segments had a positive impact on the company's results. Now looking at the performance of the Brazilian market in terms of the number of vehicles produced, we see a growth of 17.5% in light vehicle production and 4.72% growth in commercial vehicles and this would be for the third quarter of '24 compared to the third quarter of the same period last year. Slide #8. Now looking at North America's operating performance, we can see that the company reached net operating revenue of BRL 1.240 billion in the third quarter of 2024, representing 11.6% of growth on the same quarter of the previous years. North America's participation also grew from 30.2% in the third quarter of '23 to 31% in the third quarter of '24. The increase in the production of structural components for commercial vehicles and the positive exchange rate variation of BRL 148 million had a positive impact on the company's results. Looking at the market's performance in terms of vehicles produced, we can see a drop of 4.7% in light vehicle production and 11.3% drop in commercial vehicle production in the third quarter of '24 compared to the same period last year. Slide #9, Europe's operating performance. We achieved net operating revenue of BRL 1.181 billion in the third quarter of '24, a drop of 1.1% compared to the third quarter of '23. Europe's share of the company's net operating revenue reduced from 32.5% in the third quarter to 29.7% in the third quarter of '24. Reduction in production volume in the region, especially on the commercial vehicle segment, had a negative impact on the company's revenue. On the other hand, the exchange rate variation was positive in the amount of BRL 153 million in the third quarter of 2024. Now looking at the market's performance, in terms of vehicles produced, we can see a 6.9% drop in light vehicles and 15.6% in commercial vehicle production in Europe in the third quarter of '24 compared to last year. On Slide #10, now looking at the operating performance of Asia and other markets. We've got to the net operating revenue of BRL 361 million in the third quarter of '24, which represents a growth of 1.9% on the same quarter if compared to the previous year. The share and participation of Asia and other markets in the company's operating revenue dropped from 9.6% in the third quarter to 9.1% in the same period this year. The increase in the number of aluminum wheels in India was positive, whereas the reduction in the volume of aluminum wheels for light vehicles in South Africa and Thailand and steel wheels for commercial vehicles in India were negative in the quarter for the company. We had a positive impact from the exchange rate variation of BRL 42.9 million in the third quarter of 2024. Now when we look at the performance of the main markets in terms of vehicles produced, we can see a relatively similar volume for light vehicles in India in the third quarter of '24, a drop of 8.7% in commercial vehicles production in India, a drop of around 18.7% in light vehicles in Thailand and a drop of 16.5% in light vehicles production in South Africa in the third quarter of '24 compared to the same quarter of the previous year. Slide 11. Now looking at the company's gross profit. We have reached a gross profit of BRL 478 million in the third quarter of '24, which represents a growth of 31.9% compared to the third quarter last year. Our gross margin grew from 9.9% in the third quarter of '23 to 12% in the third quarter of '24, representing an increase of 2.1% in gross margin in the third quarter of '24. Now looking at the first 9 months of the year, we reached a gross profit of BRL 1.338 billion or a growth of 18.7% compared to the first 9 months of last year. Our gross margin grew from 9.8% in the first 9 months of the previous year to 11% in the first 9 months of 2024. Slide #12, you can follow the company's EBITDA coming from BRL 440 million in the third quarter of '24, meaning a growth of 40.5% compared to the same quarter in '23. Our EBITDA margin grew from 8.5% in the third quarter of 2023 to 11.1% in the third quarter of '24. Throughout the first 9 months of this year, we reached an EBITDA of BRL 1.146 billion or a growth of 18.9% compared to the first 9 months of the previous year. Our EBITDA margin grew from 8.4% in the first 9 months of 2023 to 10% in the first 9 months of this year. When we look at the adjusted EBITDA margin, the margin is growing from 8.2% in the third quarter of '23, getting to 11.2% in the third quarter of 2024. Over the first 9 months, we can see for '24, a growth in the EBITDA margin coming from 8.2% in '23 to 10.3% in the first 9 months of 2024. Slide 13, we can see the company's net profit of BRL 109 million in the third quarter of '24 compared to a loss of BRL 5 million in the third quarter of '23. Over the first 9 months of the year, we had a growth from BRL 38 million in the company's net profit in 2023 to BRL 196 million in net profit in the first 9 months of 2024. Looking at the company's investment, we see investments totaling BRL 188 million in the third quarter of '24 compared to BRL 139 million in the third quarter of '23. Over the first few months of this year, we invested BRL 428 million if compared to the BRL 329 million in the first 9 months of '23. The main investments in the period were related to the increase in capacity to meet demand from the commercial vehicle segment in North America and the construction of the new aluminum wheel plant for trucks in Europe. Slide 15. Looking at the company's financial leverage, we see a reduction from 2.97 fold in the time in the second quarter of '24 to 2.59 fold in the third quarter of '24. Our liquidity ratio has improved coming from 2.52 fold in the second quarter of '24 to 2.9 fold in the third quarter of this year. Slide 17. Now looking at the composition of the company's gross debt. Euro represents 39.4% of the company's gross debt; Brazilian reais, 38.5%; dollar, 18%; other currencies, 4.1%. The long-term debt grew from 74.1% in the third quarter of '23 to 82.80% in the third quarter of '24. Company's cash and evolving credit composition, reaching BRL 3.9 billion at the end of the third quarter in '24. We also noticed a reduction in the cost of debt in different currencies between the third quarter of '24 and the third quarter of '23. On Slide 18, you see some of the company's main launches happening in the third quarter of '24, aluminum wheels, steel wheels and special highlights for aluminum wheels for a new segment of [ redro ] scooters in Asia, where the company is also starting to participate in this business segment. On Slide 19, we can see some of the company's main awards and highlights in the third quarter of '24. Awards being received from Mercedes-Benz in Mexico, Nissan in Brazil and Mexico, General Motors in Brazil and also the acknowledgment coming from the local government in the Czech Republic due to our sustainability performance. Slide #20. We see some of the highlights on the Sustainability Report published by the company this year. We had a 30.3% reduction in the intensity of greenhouse gas emissions, Scope 1 and 2 versus the 209 baseline, reaching our first road map 0 target. We also had a 59.4% increase in the use of electricity from renewable sources and a reduction of 28% in water consumption intensity when compared to the baseline of 2020. Now, I would like to give the floor to the question-and-answers moment.

[Operator Instructions] First question comes from Gabriel Tinem, Santander.

I have 2 questions on my side. I think it's something you've been working really well. But in general, I'd like to know if most of what you have planned has been achieved or if you still see there's room for more improvement. And another question that is a little bit more focused on what's going to happen until the next -- at the end of the year. I know there's seasonality, but I would like to understand a little bit more about what is coming next. How has the company been preparing itself for the coming years in general?

Gabriel, thank you for your questions. First of all, in terms of cost, we have obviously been working in the improvement on productivity coming from all of our plants. And this is impacting our gross margin positively, also your operational costs, increasing production volume, especially for commercial vehicles and trucks, and it's been positive in this gain of productivity in our operations in Brazil. In regard to repricing, we have advanced a lot trying to really decrease the gap that has been posed by inflation. Of course, there is also room for improvement, and we are going to keep on advancing in the coming quarters. But I can say that most of the effort has been successful, and we've achieved what we wanted for the semester. Now in regard to the next quarter, historically, it is a seasonality quarter with lower conditions, and that is due to the end of year vacations, not only in Brazil, but also in other countries. And we believe that this is going to be the same for this year, which is a historical seasonality we've been observing. And the OEMs use this moment to make adjustments in their launching programs when this is a moment in which they are planning to launch new vehicles, and they are going to have an idle moment in the industry, and they prepare for the coming year. So we believe that this coming year is going to have a very good performance as far as volume is concerned. It's going to be similar to what we have been having for four quarters in all over the world. What we see is a better performance in commercial vehicles in Brazil, and it's been prolonging itself for '24. And it's in recovery, especially due to the transition to Euro 6 last year. We see a drop in production in Europe and in North America. This is something we've observed in the third quarter. And this is going to happen for the coming quarter. But we see a positive scenario for '25. We saw with IHS and the auto consultancy companies, the growth seems to be positive, but not spectacular, very discrete, but it's going to be a global growth of around 1% in commercial vehicles. With commercial vehicles, we hope to have growth in Brazil. It's not going to be proportional to what we see this year because we've recovered from last year, but we see growth for the coming year in Brazil. We also envision stability in the production of commercial vehicles in Europe. We don't expect a drop as we've seen for '24 for Europe. We expect to have a more stable 2025. And we see that for the United States, it's going to be a transitional year, the transition concerning legislation in regard to emissions that is coming in '26. So the OEMs are starting to prepare themselves for this, especially for the second semester. The same thing happened last year. We believe that the year as a whole for North America should be a relatively stable year in terms of light production vehicles and a drop in commercial vehicles. But we still see some optimism in this scenario for the customers. What we saw in the end of '23 and the production we had from the institutes concerning the commercial vehicles in North America was about having a drop of around 17% to 18% in the production for '24 against '23. And our customers were talking about some stabilization in production for '24. But the reality was that up until the end of the year, we should still see a drop in North America of around 5%, which is much closer to what the customers see than what the institutes have appointed way back in the end of '23. But now for '24, the institutes are showing a drop, still below 2 digits, but they envision a drop for '25. But our customers say that they are expecting some stabilization during the beginning of the year with some growth after the second semester. You see that the dynamics of the American evolution is important. The American economy is showing some improvement with its behavior. And we believe that the potential for this growth for '25, especially for '26 is going to be positive for the American market with some adjustment, a little drop at the beginning and then growth in the second semester for the coming year. It was very clearly, and congratulations on your results.

Our next question is going to come from Gabriel Rezende, Itau BBA.

A follow-up on this discussion you've just shared your expectations for '25. If you could comment on how you've been feeling what's happening with pricing negotiation in the OEMs and the challenges they've been facing, especially in regard to profitability. I believe there is some highlights showing in newspapers when they talk about OEMs, but it's also considering prices. Do you believe that the business environment with pricing negotiation is going to be more challenging for '25? And if so, how do you think you can overcome this problem? I see some operational improvements you've made, which was great, especially for 3Q. But how do you see you can overcome this challenge?

Gabriel, thank you for your question. I've been in the industry for more than 30 years and pricing discussions are never easy with the customers. Of course, there are different dynamics, for example, inflation, raw material growth or lack of growth in the industry. So it all really weighs on the discussion. So price negotiations and discussions are always challenging, that's for everybody in the sector. And we understand the challenges that the customers have. We understand their difficulties and the positive and negative moments they may be facing. But on our side, it's important that we keep an operational margin on a positive level to keep on investing the way we are in training capacity, the launching of new products and technologies. So we cannot stop going after the recovery in view of the inflation in several parts of the world so that we can move forward with our strategy. We've been very consistent, especially from last year on. We've been communicating you and informing of our discipline and our intentions, and our discipline is important. We've been working very hard to generate cash and investing very intelligently so that we can improve our profitability and productivity. But at the same time, we want to launch new technologies. And in order to continue, it is important that we have a pricing strategy that is sustainable. It's a continuous effort. And of course, 1 thing that is important in this sector is scaling, scaling not only in the most basic information in the sense, but scale in production and in launches and in volume so that we can have the efficiency that is required and scale so that we can communicate our business, show the value of all the products that we have. Our strategy, which is a historical strategy of producing where the customers are is very important. It's important for us because it is aligned with our costs and income in different markets, but it also brings operational efficiency for our customers because time of response and transportation, everything has improved. And this adds value in the quality of our products, the value of our own footprint because we are close to the customers, products and solutions we've been bringing to the market in terms of weight reduction or in new technologies, altogether brings very important value, which is beyond price. Of course, pricing has to be competitive. We understand the need of competitiveness, and we are always looking into being competitive. But at the same time, we need to bring the added value to the table because it goes beyond the pricing of that part specifically. It's an effort that we have to continue with. And I'm sure that 2025 is not going to be that different if compared to the previous years in regard to dynamics and negotiation. But our teams are very committed to having a very competitive portfolio considering cost, quality and also in terms of the price itself, so that we can keep on investing and keep on developing our growth strategy in the long term. We have 2 important investments for '25. One is the construction of our first plant for aluminum wheels in Europe to meet the demand for commercial vehicles. We already produced them for light vehicles. We are now getting into commercial vehicles, and we are going to start in the second semester with aluminum wheels, and it's going to be positive to provide with a new alternative of products to our customers. And it's very positive in terms of revenue generation. And there is another project. We are going to expand the capacity and production of structural components in North America to meet the demands of the American market, which is going to grow in 2025, especially in the second semester on going up to '26. So again, this is important that we serve our customers, serve and meet their needs of technology and products. And at the same time, looking into serving the future capacity and generating cash to be able to continue strengthening our scorecards, so that we are leaving threefold getting to 2.5 fold in capacity. So in the third semester -- quarter of '24, we are going to keep on moving towards the financial leverage lower than twofold, getting to 1.5. This is our final goal in the end. Again, I know it's a long explanation, but it's just to show you that we are committed to keeping the balance of costs and needs in all the markets.

Great. If you allow me for a second question, if you can tell me how the company is seeing the Chinese OEMs. They are more verticalized than average. I'd like to understand how you can revert this into an opportunity for you?

Gabriel, one of the important factors in the establishing of our third aluminum wheel plant in China would be to gradually start taking part in that market, but at the same time, establish our network and the work with the Chinese OEM -- OEMs. This is what we've been doing since 2023 now when this work is under very good development. And we will be able to not only offer products to Dongfeng in China, but also to other OEMs. Of course, this strategy generates new business, but it also establishes this long-term perspective to serve our customers, which is very important. We are now quoting and offering products to Chinese OEM in their new operations, in their new plants, and they have planting in Thailand, in Turkey, in Hungary, Brazil and in several different markets. We have just signed a contract with an OEM from -- a Chinese OEM, but outside Brazil, operating in the European market. So we are sure we are going to be able to meet the Chinese customer demands in the Chinese market, why not? But for the American China due to the footprint we are establishing for ourselves. We already offered a lot for the Chinese OEMs in Brazil, and we are now going to serve them in Europe. And we hope to be able to expand it to China and other countries outside China as well.

Our next question is from [ Kiefer Kendi ] from Citibank.

Marcos, Renato, we have a question in regard to the slides concerning revenue per customer. Several customers taking part in the composition of the full number. I'd like to explore a little bit more one drop of Stellantis from 9.9% from 7.4%. This is a very relevant group from a global perspective, 14 brands altogether. And I would like to explore a little bit more. How do you believe this shift has happened with this client specifically? If you can elaborate a little bit more on that, that would be great? And then I'll ask the next question.

[ Kiefer ], thank you for your question. Exactly. When we see revenue per customer, we understand it reflects what has been happening in the different markets in regard to our customers' development and performance in the different segments and in the different markets, and of course, some other earnings with some products specifically. But with the customer you've mentioned, if we analyze the drop in production and observed in Europe and understanding this is a very important market for this customer, the sales of this customer in North America and in Europe in the third semester has to do with this variation in their own participation. This customer, in particular, had a drop in sales and there are different brands in Europe and North America. And if you look at their results, the results they've published, you will understand that they had a very prominent drop because of these regions' drop. So this is the main reflection that we see in this quarter variation. When you see this variation from one quarter to another, the swing in their numbers may be prominent, especially because they depend on markets that are under a situation of drop, and we end up seeing some temporal oscillations from quarter-to-quarter.

Very clear. Just to follow up on the first question in regard to the cost transfer concerning the inflation. You said that most of this price transfer happened due to inflation, but this had already happened. How much do you think there's still left so that you can break even with the inflation? I would like to understand a little bit more on margin sustainability, understand. So I think that if I understand this bit, that will help.

It's hard to quantify this because this is a very specific equation coming from each customer, each product and each market. So when you see a company like our own, with a profit of 30% in Europe, 30% in North America and 10% -- 9%, 10% in Asia, and it's fragmented between aluminum wheels, steel wheels, structural components, light vehicles, commercial vehicles. So this analysis has to happen from -- with each market, each customer and the cycle, the moment of that product in this cycle. Maybe it's a product that you're not going to make a lot of effort to reprice because this is already ending its cycle. If this is a product that has a longer life cycle, you're going to work more with this with more details, and we will adjust inflation in the long term. But if this is something more updated, you're going to see some revised analysis with costs that you see in the different markets. So it is very difficult when you say, you've reached 5%, we need to get to 10% or something like this. It's not linear like this. Inflation is not going to disappear. Globally, as you see, the inflation is decreasing globally slowly, but still a little bit above what is historical. In Europe, for example, we used to see much smaller inflation 5 years ago. But it's an ongoing and continuous work. We cannot stop now, and we will have to keep on adjusting everything according to the different indexes of inflation or the impact of -- in the workforce or anything that can occur in the different markets. As we say, historically, we do have a strategy with raw materials that is aligned with our customers through important negotiations. And the other costs and the way you transfer these costs through our customers is also very much aligned. It's an ongoing work.

Congratulations on your results.

Our question now is from Victor Mizusaki from Bradesco BBI.

Congratulations on your results. I have 2 questions. The first one, you've mentioned the improvement in cash generation. And now looking forward, another topic you've mentioned with this trend with electric vehicles using steel wheel. My first question in this regard is, do you think it makes sense that after you have these ongoing projects in conclusion when you produce aluminum wheels in Europe, do you believe we expect a reduction in CapEx for the future, and as a consequence, this is going to improve generation flow in cash? And a second question, you showed a slide that had a new contract with an OEM in Asia. How is this going to happen with you? The North America is -- the Europe market is large, but do you think you're going to tackle into the market with something that you're going to produce in Europe or something? Let me know, please.

Victor, thank you for your question. Let me go bit by bit. I'll start with your second question in regard to scooters in Asia. This is a new segment, a segment we are starting to explore. We are now looking into some opportunities in this segment. This segment can even grow a little bit. We hope that this is going to grow, so that we can use the capacity in our plant to meet this demand. Our main business is still to work with the OEMs, light and commercial vehicles, buses. So this is our main market. But there are other fronts. We are looking into new ways of using our own plant capacity to produce more for markets that are prominent. This is what is happening with scooters in Asia. We are now providing wheels for motorcycles in Asia. Very low volumes, but we are starting so that we can make the most of the plant's capacity. And we may explore even other segments. For example, we are starting to offer low volumes of wheels for cargo bikes in Europe. It's a small segment. It's growing segment, bicycles for the transportation of freight or door-to-door delivery. This is a new segment we are exploring. And there are more. Historically, they are already part of our business. We don't mention them much, but historically, we offer wheels for forklifters. And we've been taking part in a segment like this. It's profitable, and it helps us use our portfolio in a more efficient way in the different regions where we operate. Now in regard to electric vehicles, we believe that the electric vehicles are still going to use a mix of wheel and -- wheels made of aluminum or steel. We are seeing steel wheels for electric vehicles for the future, but we believe that the mix of 2 different types of wheels are going to be there available for this type of car. And in regard to greenhouse gas emission, we understand that due to the raw material use, steel wheels emit less greenhouse gases. So the OEMs are going to keep a mix due to aesthetics, but also due to the carbon footprint depending on what they need to achieve. So offering them both is a good idea. They are going to use steel wheels for cargo transportation or shared vehicles in which aesthetics don't play an important role. So this benefit of reduction in greenhouse gas emission is also something that we can offer with the steel wheels. And it works very well for the company as a whole. Today, Maxion is not only the largest wheel producer in the world. We have a very global footprint. We offer aluminum wheels, steel wheels for commercial and light vehicles, and we are going to offer aluminum wheels for commercial vehicles. So that this portfolio will allow the customers to adjust their mix the way it's needed for them. And also aiming at cost reduction and reduction of the greenhouse gas emissions, and it puts us in a very good position for the future. And this is also for us to be able to combine different technologies to offer hybrid wheels, part steel, part aluminum to meet aesthetics and cost and greenhouse gas emission reduction for the future. So it puts us in a very interesting position, not only for the global footprint, but also for us to be able to offer different technologies to different customers. The investments are the ones that I've just mentioned and mentioned during the presentation for '24, '25. And the trend is that we keep on investing, but to a level of CapEx that is going to be lower than what we see for '24, '25. That's for '25, '26 and '27 because the numbers will be out there effective in production. We will try our best to optimize this footprint and optimize the capacity. So chances are our CapEx for '26 and '27 are going to be a little lower than the CapEx we've been operating for '24 and '25. Renato would like to elaborate on this.

Thank you. I think that I would like to add a little bit more. The maintenance of working capital, we always follow a ratio of the working capital divided by the net sales. And we've been working on the maintenance of this index of around 13% during 2023, specifically after the second quarter. So again, we are repeating 13% for 2, 3 -- quarters 2, 3 and 4. And the working capital is one of the equations for cash generation. We are drawing a lot of attention to it, especially with our stocks. And I believe that these 13%, they work on the maintenance of the work flow, and I will speak about this briefly. And now in terms of interest payment, we've been working on with our liability management to reduce our spread. And in the last quarter, we had a CDI rate of plus 60%, and we used it to pay for the 13th installment. We saw the issuance of the 14th debenture. No covenants and these costs with cash generation, they were all used to pay debts from the European Union as described, EUR 80 million. We had a very interesting swap, which was a little bit above CBI, and the company is here monitoring market conditions, making the most of the opportunities so that we can reduce our spread. So in terms of interest, we've been having this in a very intensive way, working hard on decreasing spread. And in answer to your question, I'm not going to comment on the direct cash flow, but in the entire cash flow. On September 9, by that date, we had a liquid generated cash with our operational activity of BRL 1.6 billion. Of course, criteria here includes a difference in disclosure. Operations with firm risk are treated as debt. And although they are treated like this, they are kept with investors, but we have a line in financial activities in which you have payments of BRL 940 million. We have to generate the liquid operational amounts with this in mind. And we add this to the investments because this is going to be in line with the direct cash flow, the investment activities, BRL 420 million. So we see that the company is presenting cash generation, a liquid cash generation after debt payments of BRL 230 million. We see very clearly a cash flow and a positive cash flow generation for the company, which unfortunately is shadowed by FX. When we look at our liquid indebtedness in September, it is much different. But the FX at the beginning of 2023 was 4.96 and in the first semester of '24, close to 5. And now we go to BRL 5.44 and the $6.07. The CFX we see, we contribute to is 50% of our debt, and it really put some shadow into the great cash generation and indebtedness decreased. But we see that despite these many challenges, we see a leverage of 2.59 fold. And as Marcos said, this idea of getting to the level of less than twofold for next year and getting to our goal, which is 1.5.

Marcos, if you can follow up on something here in regard to the wheels for scooters. Is this going to happen in Thailand?

Yes. These are aluminum wheels. For scooters, we are going to work with aluminum. Yes, it is in Thailand. Yes.

Our next question is from Andressa Varotto, UBS BB.

Marcos and Renato, congratulations on your presentation. I have 2 quick questions. One, if you can talk a little bit more about the North American laws. And I know you've been monitoring what is important over there for the coming years in regard to Trump taking office. And my question is a follow-up on margin. We saw that the company could get to the historical level of 11%. And I'd like to know the perspective in this regard when you look into the coming year, even when you think of the perspectives with the different markets and new investments that are being made. So we believe that there is positivity in operational efficiency as well. So I'd like to hear from you. I'd like to understand what is impacting your margin, please.

Okay. Thank you for your questions, Andressa. In regard to the American elections, there is a very important learning here. Now that Trump is going to take office again, I think we've learned a lot with everything that happened. But there is one important aspect. Our geographic footprint of producing where our customers consume our products is good. It gets us close to them and avoids some of the concerns with tariffs, taxes or any problems that there may be with international trading from one region to another. I think it's an important factor, not only because we are going to gain a lot in logistics, but also because -- well, I have to say that when Trump was in office previously, it didn't really affect us much, but we don't believe this is going to bring any negative effects, if so, maybe positive in his second term as a President. We saw some problems when he took office and some of the problems continued when Biden took office. But having a local production helps a lot. Second point is the free trade treaty that was revised in Trump's first government. And I say that what happened in change in regard to NAFTA that has caused any impact. I can say nothing. And with the [ USCA ], in some of the clauses, they underwent some revision in 2023. The 3 countries would get back to their conversations and their trade agreement is working, operating fine. It is already an established clause. It says that by July 2026, these 2 countries are going to start talking again. I don't know if this is going to undergo any revision. We don't believe that with our strategy, our standpoint, the way we produce in Mexico, the way we produce in the U.S., in Europe and in Asia, offering direct service to these markets, I don't think this is going to be negatively impacted by Trump. We are following through. We don't believe this is going to come with any negative effect. Now in regard to the margins, as I said previously, our objective in 2024 would be to keep on strengthening our balance, reducing our financial leverage and improving our EBITDA margin getting to the 2-digit margins in the second semester or third quarter. We wanted to get to 2 digits by the third quarter. But when we look at the year as a whole, we are still accumulated in 10%. We want to get to our average, which is around a little bit more up until the end of '25. And this is our purpose. This is our purpose for 2025 as a whole, and not only for 1 or 2 quarters. It's for the year. We are focused on this, reduce leverage, generate more cash, investing in strategic processes that are ensuring our growth in the future and improvement in margin to get to the average up until the end of '25.

We have time for one more question, and the question is going to be posed by Lucas Laghi, XP.

Rodrigo, Renato and Marcos, congratulations on your numbers for the quarter. I would like to get into one discussion in regard to structural components, especially return over invested capital. When we look at the wheels segment, we feel that this is a difficult business for you to monetize. Marcos is always saying that there is a complicated negotiation with clients, and it's something that is very concentrated on specific clients. And then it ends up being more challenging to present an incremental returns, especially with capital cost. When we look into the structural components, how do you see this different in return when you compare this to the wheels segment because we see an acceleration in this segment now. And we believe it's important that we understand this difference in the perspective of a return of investment. Maybe there is a level of differentiation between these returns. And you, as a service supplier, you may see a difference. Maybe it's a little bit more scattered, I don't know. I'd like to understand these dynamics a little bit better in regard to the return on investment that you see in these 2 segments because we do see an acceleration in structural components now.

Lucas, thank you for your question. I can say that in regard to market dynamics, they are similar. In reality, there is not a prominent difference between these 2 segments. It's a matter of negotiation with clients, a matter of volume. But what happens with the structural components segment is that historically, it has a positive margin, but it suffers some significant variations in volume that affect operational efficiency. As you could see in 2023, the drop of close to 40% in commercial vehicles in Brazil was very negative. It impacted us all because when you say that there is a business, structural components that operates for commercial vehicles, of course, we work with light vehicles, but the large volume is commercial vehicles. And when you see this movement in demand, it ends up having a negative effect in the margin of that business specifically, or in the case of North America, for example, 2023 had huge record-breaking volumes exceeding our capacity, and they all forced us to produce 24/7 and the logistics costs, general costs that were much higher than our numbers. Volumes were high, but you lose operational efficiency. So increasing capacity we are working on has this purpose of covering for that loss. It's to improve the operational efficiency and to operate in a more adequate fashion so that you can stop for maintenance, you can be efficient in logistics with manpower cost. So what ends up happening in our business with structural components is this concentration in South America, North America and large variations that are negative that sometimes affect the operational efficiency. And the margins get to different levels. Today, our capacity is more aligned with the market volumes, which is positive. And we have capacity coming in to add and to meet future demands, which may happen and the average is going to increase.

We are now going to wrap up our Q&A, and we'll now give the floor to our CEO, Marcos Oliveira.

Thank you very much for your participation. We are going to continue with our strategy, very focused, as we've mentioned in the previous quarters, improving our balance and investing in technology and products that allow us to grow our income, our profit and margin. We are committed to meeting the needs. And with our strategies, we saw in the second and third quarter, this is increasing, and we are going to keep on working. And due to our very consistent strategy, we see the numbers increasing the reduction in costs and in our indebtedness. They are all very important, not for 2024, but for the coming years as well. And in the meantime, we are focusing also on the development of new technologies, development of new solutions for the market and offering our portfolio to customers all over the world with a very clear perspective on sustainability because we want to grow and we want to invest in an intelligent way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and at the same time, gain competitiveness and productivity with what we do, doing this simultaneously and consistently. So thank you very much for your participation, and I hope you all have a great day.

So the results video conference for 3Q '24 is closed. The department of Investor Relations is here to ask -- to respond to any of your queries. Have a wonderful day.