IRIS RegTech Solutions Limited (540735) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

[Audio Gap] like -- people like Bhutan are jumping into it. And I would -- if this whole COVID relapse had not happened -- and even go off camera, if this whole COVID relapse had not happened, I would have actually expected the significant acceleration. But this relapse, I don't think that any plans that have already been announced by countries is actually going to limbo. While the good news is that post COVID relaxation, countries did start showing RFPs and what have you, and there are many countries that have actually invited us to come and make presentations. The fact of the matter is that it takes its own sweet time. We know implementing a regulatory filing platform is like a generational shift for a country. And so we had started applying, we started sending out that proposal to various countries and things that started when this whole thing happened in the last week or so. I hope it doesn't slow anything down. But Bhutan is in the bag, the reason we have not announced the amount is because it's a bit of a rolling -- it's a bit of a moving number. There are [Foreign Language] in the world of compliance while the core application for receiving the data, I can tell you what that costs. There is the level of integration and other things that actually go at the back end, where it's difficult to estimate the cost right in the beginning itself. So we will actually make a trip to Bhutan in the next couple of weeks, all -- as under the course if the country shuts down, which I don't think will happen, where we will have a better understanding as to what the value of the project will be. If I give you a range, you will basically come back and tell me why are you giving me a range so much will not give you a range at this point in time. But we will hopefully have something in place, something soon in terms of number, in terms of what the value of Bhutan would be. And if you remember, not just the last call, the previous call, I said we have about 4 different bids that we've actually put in place. [ Sigdesh ] you need to respond promptly for people, who are asking for entry, instead they are coming to me. Please [indiscernible]. Rajesh welcome. So we basically -- so far, what I basically said was Bhutan is in the bag, other countries yet to make up their minds. We are hoping it will happen soon. We're expecting some traction to happen by March end. But your guess is as good as mine, because the whole regulatory compliance platform business depends on not only [indiscernible] the regulator, but also the ability to get funding. Many of the -- So the Bhutan project is funded partly by the World Bank and the Bhutanese government. From what I know, I think it's 60% funded by the World Bank and 40% by the Bhutanese government. So any -- I think the 50% Bhutan -- 60% World Bank thing is they're already tied up. The larger thing is what we need to tie up is what we need to tie up internally, but Bhutan also depends on India for a lot of these things. So it's quite possible that India might jump in. I have no idea at this point in time. I will have more to offer in the days ahead. The value of the Bhutan contract will not be very different from any other regulatory implementations in any significant fashion. But having said that, the system integration part and other things go along with is where the variability is. What we also want to do today is to basically show you a couple of products that we have launched recently, each of which could actually be very useful to you in terms of XBRL data consumption. Some of you may be aware that SEBI is now looking at expanding the scope of XBRL compliance more and more and more. Already, the ESG reports are being submitted in XBRL. So all of these things open up more opportunities for us in the create part of our business. The first part of the business is the collect part, which is where the Bhutan thing comes in. The create part is where the new opportunities will come on account of filing mandates. The filing mandate in Europe in terms of [ IRIS ] sector -- [ Anu ] will talk about it. There was also an XBRL Asia conference that was held in Bombay recently, where most of the participants tend out to be our clients, which is very good for us. They probably flex our muscles in front of international XBRL community. That's again something that Anu will talk about. So before I say anything else, Sigdesh, are you letting VP Rajesh in?

I think we have some technical issues. I'm admitting it, but it's getting error. I'm just getting in touch with him on phone.

So Anu could you just share with us 2 things. One is what's happening with the FERC next phase mandate and also the carry aways to the XBRL conference that happened in Bombay recently? If you could do both that would be great.

Okay. So I'll start with the FERC overall mandate. So this is actually applicable for all energy companies. The Phase I of the mandate started off last year and close to approximately 800 companies that had to comply with this mandate. The Phase 2 of the mandate, what we hear is close to 3,000 entities will have to comply with the XBRL reporting. And I'd kind of visit the U.S. 2, 3 months before. So I also got the opportunity to meet with the representative who is responsible for XBRL implementation at the FERC, which is the energy regulator. So as for him, there could be more guidelines, which would come in 2023, early 2023 around mandates. That's more like informal communication that we've got, but we are hoping that there'll be more official communication coming from the FERC next year, early next year.

And we see that happening -- when we see the mandate kicking off?

So that information, they haven't kind of clearly given any dates or time frame. Usually, what happens is once the mandate is announced, usually, the regulator themselves depending on how much -- there are various steps right, one is regulator announces a mandate. There is a taxonomy that needs to be released. The tax we go through various iterations and stuff like that. Software have to be kind of developed. So I think overall, from when the mandate is announced, maybe 1, 1.5 years or 2 years is the time frame from when the mandate rollout kicks in. So if I ask for this conversation, if you are even expecting something, let's say, second quarter next year, so I think that it still will be a good next rollout for this more broader scope of reporting that more entities will be covered under this.

So just as you're aware, the FERC Phase 2 reporting, we had not factored in our internal revenue budgets going forward. The internal revenue budgets going forward, we've seen growth come largely from iFile implementations. That's the collect implementation in different parts of the world. So the FERC thing, if it happens, sooner, will actually be a positive surprise for us as opposed to it being postponed, which will be neutral. It doesn't matter, because it is not even being factored into the numbers at this point in time. Anu, go on.

Okay. So that was on the FERC overal rollout. And separately, if you see on the -- in the U.S., there's also a big reporting, which is called the climate reporting, which is going to kind of come up, which is around [indiscernible] so there also we kind of seeing that SEC will kind of start making announcements maybe next year. So those are kind of very early, early stages. But what we're kind of anticipating is this FERC will be one very important -- opportunity that have come up. So secondly, this is on the overall XBRL Asia around table conference, which was held in Mumbai. This was again last month. So this is primarily a regulatory event where a different regulators from Asia had kind of participated. And there's been an opportunity [indiscernible] regulators and agencies who want to implement XBRL as a standard. So this conference was kind of very well attended. There were representatives from RBI, SEBI, NSE and various exchanges, central banks, so on and so forth. So one very interesting thing in the event is, of course, there were our presentations from the different regulators. So there were, I think, close to 5, 6 regulators that were kind of be invited to kind of present. So there was, for example, a Securities Commission from Malaysia. There was a Jordan Securities Commission. There was Oman Capital Markets Authority, Taiwan Stock Exchange and RBI, who were invited to present at this event. Sort of these 5 regulators if you see companies commission Malaysia, right, Jordan, Oman and RBI, all the 4 speakers, who were kind of presenting the role of XBRL and how XBRL has helped them improve the overall supervisory role as a regulator, it was kind of very polished. Some of the presenters also did have IRIS name in the presentation, for example, the Principal Advisor at RBI when he gave his presentation, so he did kind of mention how RBI has overall helped -- overall, how it helped improve the whole banking supervisory system in India. He was speaking also of like NPAs and stuff like that and also early fraud detection and stuff like that. So he did kind of also take our name in the speaking slot, which he kind of presented, which is very, very nice to hear, by the way. So similarly, the [indiscernible] also from Oman, Jordan, also Malaysia, that kind of mentioned our name in the presentations [indiscernible] about us, which is kind of very, very encouraging to see. Of course, there were presenters, like, for example, Taiwan Stock Exchange. So there -- in Taiwan, we did not do the implementation, but they were kind of trying to kind of say how that implementation has gone in their country and where they are also kind of looking for more and more improvements in the way they've kind of implemented. They also want to move to this new reporting requirement, which is like iXBRL. Most of the regulators have adopted XBRL, but the next generation of -- the improved avatar of XBRL is what is called as iXBRL. So countries like Taiwan are also kind of considering to adopt iXBRL at some point in time. So they were kind of explaining their own challenges in implementing and stuff like that. So it was a very well-attended event, and it was very nice to see that out of 5 speakers were our customers on the regulatory division.

So what this does is the following. One of the consequences of this event that happened here is that neighboring countries and other Asian countries were keeping an eye on it. Many have actually participated virtually in the conference, and it nudges them in the direction that we would like them to go. So we actually expect at least 1 or 2 of these countries to start on their XBRL preparation going forward and very quickly. So I think that's the big purpose that events like this will actually -- we actually serve. Secondly, when 4 out of 5 regulators come and talk about IRIS, I think there's a huge endorsement that also gives comfort to people. And on the sidelines, at least 2, 3 of the regulators have actually invited [indiscernible] come to countries and basically see what more we can actually do. So there's a thing that we keep discussing internally. Now that we have hit 50 countries. By the way, we've hit 50 countries as of now with Bhutan coming in I say 48 plus, it's not 50. So with 50 countries work happening with either regulators or enterprises, we don't really need to add to any more countries, though -- and secretly, I still have the aspiration of covering as many countries as possible. The fact that we have these countries, if we just deepen our business in these countries, that's enough for us to grow quite literally. And that's certainly an extremely important element of our strategy going forward. So these conferences where 4 out of 5 regulators stand up and say, we work with IRIS, becomes a huge endorsement and the source of comfort come for each of them, wanting them to do what creates a situation where they want to do more with us. And in every one of these countries, when they actually come here and they see the local regulator like RBI also working with us, they basically are very, very satisfied. So that's the basic carry away as far as the XBRL Asia corporate is concerned. One other consequence of that is, some of you might be -- may be aware that I talked about the CAG report where CAG had talked about data standards. So many state governments in India have taken heed of the CAG report and have started talking about data standards themselves. So it won't be long before Indian states also move in the direction of data standards. On the chat box, I posted a link of a document that's been put out by the Tamil Nadu Government. If you look at the document, that Tamil Nadu Government actually talks about XBRL being an optional adoption by various departments of the state government in Tamil Nadu. And it won't be long before that was mandatory. The first step when something new happens, it's the recognition. In the second step, people started opting it. So I think you can safely say that all the 29 states in the country will be paying heed to these things, and we'll actually be taking it forward at their own pace. So we're quite happy with the progress on this front. So that's where we are. I'm happy to shut up and take any questions that you have. We also have Divakar here from my office, who can show you -- so one of the big problems in the XBRL filing in India, is that nobody using the data. So we have tools that we have created, which allows people to use the data. Time permitting, we asked about to do a demo, and I would strongly urge you to start using it. It's free. We will start worry about start pricing it much later. But in the meanwhile, if there are questions, happy to take them. And do download that link, the link is there in chat box, please click on it and download the link and take a look at it.

[ Vikas ] [indiscernible]

A couple of questions. One is, could you please speak a little more if you have made any progress in terms of the GST invoice pricing? And the second question was about your filing, the press release that you made regarding Microsoft, you tie up with Microsoft. Could you please speak a little bit more about these?

Basically, the Microsoft thing means that our product is available through Office 365, it's nothing more than that. It's not some major tie-up with Microsoft. Every software company wants their partnership, partner ecosystem to basically work with their own products to make it available. The number of people globally using Microsoft products is huge. And I think it works to our advantage. It's no -- I would not read too much into it in terms of recognition and whatever. It's on those hygiene factors. I presume you're referring to disclosure management system and the office 365 integration. Anu, you want to talk about it? Anuradha?

Yes, yes. I can speak about it. So far, if you see overall, at least from the carbon business line, what we've been kind of doing is, we've been going after geographies and mandates where XBRL reporting is being introduced. So that has been our focus so far. So what we want to kind of do is while XBRL comes in the very last leg of the reporting, we want to kind of get into the working process of the compliance reporting team, which is, of course, the preparation of that report. And going forward, ESG is also a very, very -- or like a hot topic, which is kind of coming up. So with this overall Office 365 integration with IRIS CARBON, we've got 2 opportunities here. One, it is for the existing, and we have a customer base already. We are in a nice position to go ahead and speak to the same CFO's office and have still opportunity, which means we're going -- it's like a backward integration, right? You're going to the reports and stuff like that. So that is one opportunity with our existing customers. The second thing is, of course, this also is going to help us go beyond an XBRL mandate, because the XBRL mandate is not in our control. There are so many factors which comes in -- political and also the interest of the regulators and stuff like that. However, what we feel is there's a genuine need of compliance reporting SaaS solutions and a lot of companies right now prepare the annual reports, quarterly reports, all sorts of reports in a very manual -- so with a SaaS offering, we think we will be also able to go after companies where there's a need for a solution like this and it is not XBRL dependent. It's not mandate dependent. So that's like another area where we think there is potential.

Also, what I want to add is a hygiene factor because many companies prepared annual reports at least going with the final stage using Microsoft Office or one of its components. Therefore, it's imperative that we are on it to be able to ensure that we don't lose customers by not being on it. So I would urge you not to look at it as a tie-up with Microsoft. I don't -- I started to use that word. As I said, as a company, we are very, very conservative in terms of the way we see things. We disclose these things in the market, not because of any reason, but we need to disclose it. So we need to disclose these things when they happen, and we will disclose it, and we'll keep this closing it. But as I said, it's not a tie-up in that sense. It's allowing the product to be available on Microsoft platforms. It's available today because many people, who want to do backward integration and there are adjacent products that we will keep launching for which working with Microsoft becomes very important, and that's the way to look at it. As far as GST is concerned, the big churn, we think will happen once the E-invoice mandate is launched, we're still waiting for it to be launched. There have been some hiccups on the government side. But I think it's getting to be under control. So some churn started happening. There are no precise numbers, I think we'll get more clarity by the end of the year in terms of where we are headed. So we're all waiting for the E-invoice mandate to kick in, and that's really going to be the next big driver of churn in market. And that we think will start happening around January 1.

Regarding the Microsoft what -- I don't know what the correct word is, maybe partnership, right? So I think wouldn't it sort of add to -- wouldn't it be -- I know you were trying to say it's not such a big deal, but I would say, it's a bit better in your cap because it signals something that a large company is willing to tie up partner with us and offer our product in conjunction with Office 365. So I thought it was something really big.

Isn't this Vikas asking the question right, Vikas?

Yes, Sir, that's me.

So Vikas if you wrote a letter and using Microsoft Word, you're using Microsoft Word to write a letter. Microsoft is not going to be very proud or not so proud that you did the product that you wrote your letter at Microsoft Word. Similarly, if more of an example, Tushar puts out a research report and using Microsoft Word, that does not mean we're very proud of it. The point I'm making -- I'm not saying it cannot be a big deal. If we are not in Microsoft, we strung the risk of losing some business. By being in Microsoft, we are able to defend our turf much, much better. It's also possible that we can grab new business because of that. But I don't see that as being a huge, big driver. I see this more as a hygiene factor than anything else at this point in time. I see this more as a necessity than a deal at this point in time. It's not a conscious strategy or to basically -- and it's not a partnership. So there's no corporate agreement between us and Microsoft to be able to work on Office 365. Going forward, if you're going to be offering solutions in the cloud, you will necessarily be working with software also in the cloud. And that's where things like this become very, very important. You will see many, many more products coming up from us and to other people on such cloud-based platforms. So my only request to you is I see anybody can develop a product on the Office 365. I don't think Microsoft have any objections, because ultimately, as far as Microsoft is concerned, they'll be able to sell no licenses. More power doesn't do that. So I'm just saying don't -- I'm not saying dismiss it. But I'm also saying don't read too much into it.

Sir, could I ask you more like a product feature kind of question. So would it help us, for example, if there is a user in, say, Bajaj Finance, who wants to file an XBRL report, so he can now use Office 365 products and very quickly be able to create his reports? Is that the kind of XBRL reports? Is that the kind of features that will come into play here?

[indiscernible] Anu?

Can you just come one more time, please?

Yes. Anu. My question was, so this sort of partnership with Microsoft -- sorry, Office 365 -- so does it allow them to sort of create the XBRL report and say Excel and then very quickly -- so the whole between the IRIS CARBON and Excel, is that -- does it work more smoothly with this tie-up? Is there something, some feature like that or product level feature like that?

Okay. Let me kind of explain how this works. So the overall XBRL, of course, it's like an open source standard, right? Overall IRIS CARBON, what we've kind of done is we've kind of gone ahead and used the standard and the whole activity of what we call a staging, right, the tagging, review, validation. All those are modules inside IRIS CARBON that we have built. So that all of that is IRIS, let's say, IP. So overall, if you see integration with Office 365, what it allows is, for example, it is not that it will allow user to go and do the tagging, right? That is not something, which exists now, but the tagging is a model that we have brought in IRIS CARBON, and that is proprietary to IRIS. So in the Excel file what happens is usually when compliance teams prepare reports. So most accountants have Excel as the base for all the numbers. And its like a data repository for numbers for financial tables and stuff like that. So what happens is with this overall integration. So the overall ease of kind of preparing reports becomes much better, right? Because otherwise, just imagine if there's a 10-member team, who's preparing our offering reports. I'll be working on my desktop. You'll be working on your desktop. And there's somebody, who's kind of collaborating everything in gathering. So all the manual activity gets eliminated, everything is done online, which means everybody is working on one centralized document. And of course, this serves as a centralized [indiscernible], which is linked to the Word. That's another very important thing. [indiscernible] are embedded on IRIS CARBON, which means whenever a number changes, it can very smoothly be done on the Excel file, all the number of dates will flow directly into the word and finally, to IRIS CARBON. And whenever there are a number of dates XBRL tagging also gets retained. So the XBRL modules are not there on the Excel or the Word. The XBRL modules are there in IRIS CARBON. Does that make sense?

Yes, yes. Sure. Can I ask one more question?

If nobody has a question, sure, please, by all means.

Okay. Sure. Sir, my question is more -- sorry, very long-term kind of a thing. So say, 5 years or 10 years from now, are you -- what is your -- what is the game plan in your mind? Are you going to bring in, say, professional management or something like that after the founders take a back seat. What is the game plan there? If you could just -- you can be -- you can just give me a high-level thought process. I'm not looking for specific answers here.

So I think the [indiscernible].

No, no, I mean that if you're going to hire a CEO to run -- not now, say, 10 years from now, if you want to -- do you -- plans of hiring a CEO where the promoters take more of a board level kind of a seat is that thought process? What is the thing here is my question.

Anu. When I called you to ask it on the call or when I call asking me on the call, I said there are investors, who would like me to step down and for people, others to take over. So Anu see if you want me to step down for others to take over. So let's started. So Anu that's why I wanted you on the call. See ultimately everybody has an expiry date. I have an expiry date. Every [indiscernible] in the company has expiry date. I'm 60, Deepta is a few years younger, Balu is a year younger and we all have expiry dates. So I think what we need to do is to put in place -- needs to have a company that people might -- people should want to join. See, if a company, for example, many of you who've been shareholders for a while I have not taken the salary for a long time. I started taking the salary. So the company is getting stronger. Today, the company is financially much stronger than it ever was before. But to be able to attract good people, you need to have a much, much stronger company. And then -- I'm not saying that if it's all solid, well settled, only then people will come. People will join the train that's accelerating and going faster. So I think the challenge for us is to show people that these things are possible. We are putting in place the runway for it to take off. Hopefully, we will take off and not crash. I think we've had enough crashes. We've had enough. We have so much bad Karma over the last so many years. It's time for some good Karma to takeover. So we're hoping for that. So obviously, I mean, I think -- I don't think any of us expect to be here forever. We are first-generation entrepreneurs, Deepta, Balu and I and we all are extremely mindful of the fact that we have an expiry date. And therefore, it's important for us to be the right team in place, which is also why we keep inviting colleagues of us to come and participate in these calls, so that they can get the exposure that's needed. Vineet is an outstanding colleague. Anu is an outstanding colleague. Divakar is more recent. So I will not use any hyperbole about him. I was not using anything to describe what he does, whether he asks for a higher increment next year. So we are mindful of this, and we are putting in place the systems for that to happen. You said 10 years, I don't think I last in this company 10 years. As of now, I'm giving myself 5 years in this company, after which somebody needs to take over. Who will it be, at this point in time, it's a question that we keep asking ourselves. We have a solid level of next level of management. We have people like Anu, who are extremely good, and we have several others, who are extremely good. So our ideal situation will be defined somebody from within. And if nobody from within is able to step up, then we look for somebody from outside. It's a complicated business, just hiring somebody, who has a domain knowledge is not going to happen. It's not that simple. So we need to find somebody. And that's what we're going to do.

[Operator Instructions] Yes, [ Kaal ], please go ahead.

One of the things which I wanted to know is, I guess, pertains more to the Create segment -- is that -- what are the key factors that make a prospective client, select a particular SaaS platform? So is it -- and who exactly is the main influencer? I mean when you're marketing your product, do you have to convince the compliance officer, is it the CEO of the company? Or is it that a regulator such as the RBI or the SEC gives a data to all the regulating entities that these are some of the platforms that are accepted for the entity to report.

[ Kaal ], it's a fantastic question. And this is a question that we keep gapping it all the time. And it's not one approach that holds the mandate. Kaal if you are not on mute, I think there's a lot of feedback coming from you. So it's not one approach that will help. It's not one shoe that fits all sizes. Now the nature of the compliance market is such that you need to be able to be seen by the person, who's going to use your product. So very often calling on that makes a huge difference. So Anu has traveled extensively across Europe, meeting our cross-sectional companies and getting them to -- and pursuing them to come and take our product. Like we're selling a product worth about a I think from, say, $5,000 to $10,000, making a trip to Europe to get even 1 or 2 customers is actually worthwhile because of the Indian cost structure because these are SaaS offerings and the customer stays with you for a long, long time, that's one part. Second, the reason why a certain company comes to you is because other companies in the same country have come to you. I can never overstate my gratitude to a Belgian company called Colruyt, which is the first to sign up with us. The movement Colruyt signed up with us, many, many, many companies in Europe started signing up with us. The endorsement that we got from Colruyt was absolutely defining and I think Anu can talk about it. There are several such marquee customers that I can talk about in every country that we actually operate in. So we spend a lot of time trying to identify these marquee companies, going and meeting them and telling them how good we are. The third thing that's very important. The fact that we are visible on the internet, see, ultimately, in the world of compliance, like about medicine, you don't take a doctor on the basis of just L1, use to do it on the basis of pricing. You will have comfort in the doctor's ability to deliver. So in the case of compliance, you have comfort and the capability of the company going to work with to deliver on your compliance solutions. So the fact that we work with regulators in so many countries, the fact that we work with RBI, the fact that we work with Singapore, I think all of us need to be proud that we have a great regulatory in RBI. We don't realize the amount of respect that RBI commands globally. So when you say you work with RBI and the banking system actually works with you, I think it's a tremendous source of comfort for many welding of people across the world. Price also makes a difference, but we are not the lowest cost that are people significantly lower in terms of cost. And to answer the question that you asked about working with regulators, yes, working with the regulator like we do in South Africa and India and a few other countries makes a difference. But you can't [ tom-tom ] it. You can't basically say I'm the teacher's son, therefore, I have the question paper. It doesn't work like that. So I think we need to be very, very careful, especially in countries where we work with regulators, not to use that to gain customers, it's a completely different process. I will not say that we have not gained customers because people have seen that also. But to what extent that happens, I don't think it's very, very significant. Anu, you want to share with us how you pitch when you go and call on customers in Europe, for example, or U.S. Sorry. One last thing. I think the partner network, we are extremely grateful to I mean, our partner network has stood bias to tick and in. Many people keep telling us why don't you use the partners to acquire a customer for a year and then get out. We don't do that. We want to work with partners. We want to work with pass in the short term and the long term. And I think the partners have delivered absolutely good customers to us. So it's also a question of choosing the right kind of partners that we need. So Anu why don't you share with us the approach that you have taken when you gone to Europe and U.S.

Okay. This whole European mandate was supposed to start 2020. So I think Europe was one of the -- started off much earlier, like 2019 and stuff like that. So I think it all comes through like a lot of things. Of course, we need to have good product sales, marking all of that matters a lot. But I think in Europe, what really helped us get the initial customers was our overall experience and the thought leadership that we show in this space. So for example, we write a lot of materials on latest topics, for example, the [ ASF ] mandate. So we got a force and query to our website, by the way, a company called Colruyt, which is the #1 retail company in Belgium. So they have kind of reached out to us and because they had an IT division in India. So the CFOs office from Belgium [indiscernible] that's how we went and met with them, presented our solution. And this was like, I think, almost in 2018 as early as 2018. There was a series of presentations and they kind of really liked the offering, they signed up with us. And then even before it was 2 years for a mandate to kick start up, they wanted to do a voluntary iXBRL, like a dry [ iron ]. So they were one of the very early companies in the whole of Europe to adopt iXBRL. And we requested things like testimonials and stuff like that, because they are kind of very, very happy, and they did kind of give us a very good testimonial overall around the entire offering. And with that 1 testimonial of course, that is where -- to kind of connect with Deloitte. So one of the -- Deloitte Belgium people were at Colruyt, and they were like one of the consultants for Colruyt. So through that Colruyt engagement, we got Deloitte Belgium. And through Deloitte Belgium, they wouldn't kind of sign up with anybody being like a bit for -- so they kind of started recommending -- there were kind of events that they kind of started hosting. So that's how we got invited. This was again like 2019, 2020, we get invited to participate in a lot of events. And because of Colruyt, we got a lot of Belgium area. And similarly, if you see other examples, we also got our early partners also, by the way, from Belgium itself. So that gave us a very good momentum to kick start off even started. And similarly, if you see, Italy is also another geography where we work with Deloitte. Deloitte uses our products since 2014 for the Italian XBRL mandate. And similarly with our sales -- forming a sales team business, I think, in 2019 for the Europe region because we did see an opportunity coming up. So another interesting customer that we kind of signed up was a company called ENI, E-N-I, which is actually Italy's one of the largest energy companies. They are into the petroleum industry. So for them also, they were already working with a company -- another vendor for the U.S. SEC reporting and the European reporting was new for them. So of course, [indiscernible] which there was move from -- I'm not a salesperson to be very honest. So I come with the XBRL background, I know CARBON.So I think our conversations were more like consultative, I would say, selling, let's put it that way. So I think we like the whole approach of [indiscernible] that we know our stuff and they decided, okay, fine, we'll sign up with you for the ease of reporting. [indiscernible] 2 years ago. And this is going to be our third year with them. And this year, they have also decided to sign up with us for the U.S. SEC reporting. So they were working with one of the very large players, other vendors for the SEC reporting and seeing the overall way how we kind of -- how the product is and the overall experience that they have, they will sign up for the SEC reporting as well this year. So similarly, we signed up some very good partners. For example, Slovenia is a small country, but we signed up with a partner called ADD. And through that partner, we managed to get close to 90% of the market share in that particular country. So being in India and for example, our competitors, for example, there are competition -- some of them share the names, we've got -- there's a company called [indiscernible]. They had a very large team, sales team. So in each country, they had a sales force that if you see minimum, they would have 25 people and if you see from our side, we had only 3 or 4 salespeople here, and that to from India. It was much later than we had 1 colleague in state. So with a 3 to 4 member sales team here, I think we've managed to kind of get 250 to 280 customers as of today, which I think is a good job that we've kind of done. And similarly in the U.S., if you see U.S. also has been a very different market for a...

Anu one second. So what you want to add before anything else is we also get with Indian Embassy overseas. In many countries, we work with the Indian missions to try to do some local outreach. And the government gets a very bad name very often. But I think if we can actually talk to the missions overseas and try and come with the value proposition, they actually help us. So many companies in Europe, which went through the COVID -- adverse COVID situation, we offered them a free filing for 1 year and most of them converted to paying clients in subsequent years. So I think I will also not underestimate the value that accrued to us on account of Indian missions ndices. I think I'll go to the next question, because 2 hands going up. Rahul, your hand went up first.

Yes. Thank you, sir. So I wanted to ask about the Phase 2 of the FERC. So I believe that in Phase 1, we had partnered with someone. And then I think that partnership had stopped post Phase 1. So do we plan to go by ourselves for Phase 2? Or have you partnered with somebody else?

As of now, we're going on our own. But if we find a suitable partner, we're open to it. Our partner in Phase 1 has launched their own product as well. So I think there's something that I want to share with you. It's something I keep saying to my colleagues internally. One big lesson for us -- now this doesn't necessarily change our behavior to other partners. One big lesson for us is that choosing your partners is very, very important, choosing your partners carefully is very important. And partner [indiscernible] in terms of their own growth, we have to be mindful of that. And very often [indiscernible] talk about, who your competitors are, I think who your partners are is also an extremely important question that we keep asking ourselves, and we are mindful of the aspirations of our partners in every market. So in Phase 2, will we go on our own as of now, yes. If we find a suitable partner, we'll go with them, the answer is yes. Are we looking for one? Well, we keep our eyes open because our entire growth strategy in every market so far has been on the back of our strong partners.

Got it. And sir, so how big would this opportunity be for us in terms of how much would be the average realization for these kind of deals and -- and what kind of share are we looking to get for the FERC Phase 2?

For per unit realization in Phase 2 will be much less than Phase 1, because they are smaller companies. And therefore, the per unit realization will be much less. I think our realization will depend on whether we work with a partner or not work with the partner. We also have to see the complexity of the taxonomy that comes out in terms of the complexity of the filing that needs to be done. So I think it's still too early to figure out our price point for that activity. The moment we have clarity we share that with you.

Yes. Okay, sure. Sure. Yes. Okay. So one question I had was on the recurring sales. So we are right now at around INR 50 crores of recurring revenues. So what kind of cost do we actually incur for the recurring part of the sales? So I just wanted to understand what kind of profit can we get just from that part of our sales?

It's a fantastic question. The cost of retaining a customer has 2 parts to it. One is the cash cost in terms of engagement, that's more a time cost in terms of people engaging with them and so on and so forth. There's no additional cost, except product upgradations needs to be done anyway. So very often in any company, often people get transferred, new people need to be trained, that's a cost that is to be incurred. So I think, generally speaking, the more and more the customers will do things on his own. See in year 1 in most mandates a lot of handholding happens, a lot of white [indiscernible] given to customers. But the more and more the customer can handle things on their own, as is beginning to happen in the minimum market, the greater the margins recruit to you. I think it varies from customer to customer. It's not -- and I think we are completely mindful of that. So we have internal system that keeps track of P&L for each customer. So each customer, the numbers are very different.

Okay. Because for some of the companies in the SaaS space, so their recurring revenues may they earn as much as 60%, 70%, 75% gross margin also. So are we looking at that kind of a percentage? I mean if you can just give some -- like some figure, it would be quite helpful.

Sure. But please note that one of the problems in IRIS today is that we have a complicated business with 3 different divisions. And therefore, the player of 1 division, it in margin of the division quite literally. So when you aggregate over the company, you actually get to [indiscernible] numbers. But if you go product by product in terms of pure SaaS offerings, the numbers will not be very different from the kind of numbers that you just talked about. So it's really also a function of at what stage of usage the customer is in year 1 of the customers usage the product will be a lot more, what should we call it, health component service component. Year 2, it will come down. Year 3, we want to eliminate it completely. So it's really, over time, the margins keep improving as the customer takes the product in-house. Saket, the floor is yours.

Sir, firstly, in terms of we're doing business with the Reserve Bank, what kind of revenue have we posted for the last year? And what are the terms of the contract with the XBRL filings, sir.

Vineet, will, you want to take the question?

You're asking about the revenue -- this is Vineet, so are you asking on the revenue from the RBI.

This is we do RBI, I think so I have knowledge about the XBRL. Any other...

So over the last 2 years from that XBRL project which we are implementing, we would have recognized around INR 10 crore over the last 2 years.

And what are the terms of the contract many, how many years have we signed it every year, what kind of revenue...

RBI has been with us from 2008 onwards, and they're not going anywhere. So these are all long-term contracts. See, [indiscernible] recognize one thing. When you work with the regulator, if you make a mistake, the regulator will throw you out. So even if you have a 20-year contract with the regulator, the regulator always has the finger on the button to the exit gate, to throw you out at any point in time. So it's up to you to ensure that we don't make any mistakes and so on and so forth. Every regulator that we work with, whether Singapore or RBI or any other market, they've been with us from day 1. There are markets like Thailand where we did not stay on any -- beyond a certain time because our local partner took over and is running with it. So there are situations like that. But regulators like Singapore [ Zack ], RBI India and several others have stayed with us since the beginning, and we'll continue to stay with us unless we screw up, which we hope we never do. They keep it in renewed every time, every so often.

Okay, sir. So just to take into account the pie of business that we can garner specifically from the regulator like RBI, what is the scope of work on the size of the pie going ahead in terms of only, but I need to expand a lot of the further initiatives also, which I think the Reserve Bank currently is working. I think so with India also with NBFC migration, which they have been sending mails all across getting details from the NBFCs in terms of whether the same are filing, they're submitting their accounts in Index format or not. So are we working with RBI with that project also. I just wanted to understand what is the total business opportunity from RBI in particular on an annual basis.

So one of the challenges companies like us have is the challenge to say no to any business that actually comes to us. We define our business quite narrowly. We basically say that we are in the business of providing regulatory filing solutions. That's what we do. We are not a software services company. We don't do bespoke software projects. Now unfortunately, in any regulatory implementation, some amount of system integration is inevitable and that to that extent, therefore, we end up doing a software project. So while RBI is a huge opportunity from an IT industry point of view, we have focused completely and narrowly on the regulatory compliance solution for RBI, which is where our eyes are. Do we see any significant growth in that going forward? The answer is no. We will continue to maintain it. Therefore, the routine revenues will keep coming. And in this current phase where there's a huge -- they've overhauled their hardware and all that stuff, we're actually working with TCS, who actually have the lion's share of the contract to make this happen. So are we interested in doing other things at RBI as a match of policy, we don't want to stray outside our area of core competence. When it comes to software, bespoke software development, there are many great companies in the country who are able to do these things. We are not in that space at all. We don't run a bench. We don't have people who will be able to work across technologies. We are a Regtech. We are a regulatory software provider, and that's where we will continue to stay focused on. We will not do anything else.

And in terms of debt, are we looking for any work from CPC or the income tax department in terms of they're coming out with simpler forms for ITR synchronizing of data, all those stocks, which are in the annual. So are we working with any of them going ahead in terms of, again, that is going to be a simpler form of filings only going ahead.

If the regulator wants to move into an XBRL-based filing system. You will find us first in line waiting to do the work. If a regulator simply wants a data collection platform, you may not see us there with any great degree of enthusiasm unless we see that, basically, we have done it like this. If there's a demand for our iFile product, if there's a deployment possibility for iFile product, we will be there. If it's a bespoke software development project, we will not be there. We are very, very clear about that.

And a small suggestion there. In terms of this filing aspect for XBRL for the RBI part, there is an aspect of a lot of NBFCs, they are facing is about the filing of mill returns. So if we could implement some executable files wherein the mill returns can be filed at ease, that would surprise a lot of [indiscernible] of filing again and again for every quarter. There is one of these foreign , I think, so for 13, if I'm not wrong, wherein we -- many people having exposure to foreign exchange are to file and other NBFCs are to file a mill return, again in the XBRL format. So if an EXE executable file could be created so that we can give a declaration for the entire year or for the period gone by, that would surprise a lot of [indiscernible] that we have to do for every quarter. So if you could suggest some ways by which that filing part can be looked into that. That's a quarterly basis, wherein 90% of the small, medium-sized NBFCs are FX rate. So if you could look into the aspect that the request from my side.

Sure. [indiscernible] valuable suggestion. I'll pass it on to my colleagues who deal with RBI and the products that go into serving the RBI ecosystem. So thank you for your valuable suggestion.

[Operator Instructions]

So in the 10 minutes that remains, I will get my colleague Divakar to share his screen and show each of you how you can actually consume XBRL data. Divakar, go ahead.

Yes. Everyone. I have just shared my screen now. But please let me know once it's visible, okay? So first, I'll take you through the web-based browser tool. So this is...

So just the background is the following. Today, 5,000 companies are submitting data to BSE and XBRL. 32,000 companies are filing with ROC and XBRL, the data is not being consumed because nobody knows how to use the data. We have created a very simple tool by just dragging and dropping the annual report of a company to this tool that XBRL file will automatically get converted into an Excel file. That's what Divakar is going to show you with this tool at this point in time. Divakar go on.

Yes. So I've just logged in. So we'll pick a company from --NIC since there are many people I'll just one second...

Karl, do you -- let's give Karl the [ priviliges ] picking a company name -- just pick a company, please, Karl?

NTPC, National Thermal Power Corp.

Karl picked NTPC, let's pick NTPC. So what Divakar is going to do is to download the NTPC file and drop it into this application. That's all -- so with this url, xbrl.iriscarbon.com for any company filing XBRL, please feel free to go and use this to create an excel file from the XBRL file. It comes with XBRL tags. If you want to consume it into your proprietary model, you can do that automatically. What are you doing here Divakar?

No, it's just opening now. Yes.

There is the Excel file. So the Excel file generated from the XBRL filing of NTPC is now available for you. The tags use of XBRL -- tags with a onetime mapping, you can have the labels correspond to the label that you are used to. It's that simple. So this tool can be used by you for any XBRL file or any IXBRL file of any country anywhere in the world. So if you want to compare an Indian company with some other company, well, you can't compare using this because the taxonomies are different. For that, there is a different tool, we will show you. But if you just want to download XBRL file of any company anywhere in the world, you can use this tool. So Divakar just type of the URL in the chat box.

Yes.

Please open the chatbox and type out the URL. So you now have the URL, so please use this to download into Excel the XBRL file of any company anywhere in the world. It's that simple to do. Of course, it's taken a lot of investment moat make it happen. And it's a tool that we're offering across the country to everybody who wants to use it. The second thing that Divakar will show you an Excel-based tool in Office 365, which allows you to compare companies. So Divakar, over to you. Show them comparison.

Sure. So we have various as you can say, capital market mandates over here. So I'll just pick up BSE. We'll just have to go here. We can type any company. I'll just TATA motors.

Divakar, why don't you compare -- I know what all database, what all companies. But since he mentioned NTPC, can you compare NTPC with, say CESC.

Yes, yes.

Do NTPC. Somebody has given you a name, use that name. And we don't have it there a different thing and tell him it's not there. It's [indiscernible].

No, it is there. I just show this up. And you can compare this with any company of...

I want comparison with CESC [indiscernible] CESE.

TATA Power as well.

I think we'll take [ TATA ] Motors, if it's okay.

No, TATA power.

It's not in our repository. I'll just take Tata Motors. We just need this [ eye sign ] code from here. And if you just put their eye sign, you can get -- we can compare different companies as well. And you can compare across various verticals as well.

So again, Divakar. So the way this actually works is you have to download little app from the office store, which you get installed in your excel sheet as an add-in. And once you have the add-in, you can compare any company with any company that you want to. I would recommend that you first take the taxonomies are harmonized, normalized for it to make a meaningful comparison. Otherwise, the data will not slow what we are now doing is to normalize it and harmonize across the world, which is not an easy task, but that's what we're working on right now. But the first tool, please use it, please start using it to download data. Divakar, thank you very much. Just post on the chat box, a little instruction on how people can get this data so people really get start using it. If we have no other questions, we will close for the day we got 4 minutes left to go.

So I just had a couple of questions more on the business side. What's sort of the pipeline looking, especially in the U.S.? And if you can also talk about the competitive landscape over there given all the turmoil we have about in the U.S. economy. So that's really trying to just understand.

So there is no material change from when we met last time after half year results as far as our outlook is concerned, except for the fact that we want to on mandate -- and as far as [indiscernible] is concerned, compliance is something that nobody can achieve a scale. Therefore, there's only no significant or even insignificant changes in time lines of implementation or rollouts of mandates that are already in the pipeline. I don't know to what extent the FERC mandate is getting delayed because of COVID in America. I don't think it is. I think it's more preparedness of the companies as opposed to anything else, to verify. But there's been -- there's nothing significant to report as far as far as changes in the outlook is concerned between the time we managed in the half year and now, except as I mentioned to you, for the Bhutan mandate, which we actually won about a week ago.

I see. And in terms of the competitive intensity, how are the other companies which are -- which we have talked about in the past because of the -- either balance sheet issues or sort of funding drying up, especially for the private competitors? Any color on that side?

So globally, for example, when you take a look at it, Workiva is going from strength to strength and doing extremely well. And if you see the numbers, they are powering ahead and they are the company to be the [indiscernible] company benchmark is. I mean we compare to them, Workiva is really the market leader. And they don't have any funding issues of any kind. They have a watches, which is they can [ destinate ] everybody. They actually took over Parseport, which is a company in Europe, and the variant on cloud to it. But that's -- in a way, it's been good for us because by taking over Parseport, they're actually ratcheted up the price to be able to do -- to get -- to increase the revenues. The -- so the pricing pressure they brought on the reels have a different kind altogether. In India, for example, the GST thing, we expect some traction to happen after the reinvoiced mandate goes live. We see a churn happening. We see at least 1 or 2 of our competitors in the space who are currently paying the price for not being able to differentiate between the balance sheet and the P&L. But as I said, globally, I think right now, it's more a standstill situation. we see some things happening in the new year. As you know, the ESG mandate is kicking in from not next year, the year after. Some of the preparation is going into ESG mandate. We've already got some customers like GAP using our tool for pilot filings. So we see some traction in the front. [indiscernible] the big driver we see for us is actually going to be from new regulatory implementations of XBRL platforms where we hope that we will have something good happening for us at least in the 4 or 5 proposal that we have put out. One, as I told you has come out, Bhutan has come out in our favor. The others, I hope it comes out in our favor. Some will, some won't. You win some, you lose some. But that's where the growth driver will be going forward more than the enterprise side at this point in time.

Got it. And just lastly, I'm not asking for a guidance per se, but what kind of growth you anticipate for the next 3-year time frame?

The easy answer is I don't know. The difficult answer is it really is a function of how much cash we have to mount and a solve on the markets that we are talking about. So we also have backup plans in terms of trying to attack those markets without a war chest. We know how to live [indiscernible]. I think the word used is cockroach, we survive. So cockroach does know how to survive and I think I never said -- I thought today would come, I would say, I'm proud to be a cockroach, but that's where we have. So if we had a lot of money, I think we would approach it differently. If you don't have a lot of money, we [indiscernible]. We are, to some extent, a prisoner of the schedules of the regulator. We hope some of them look at things very seriously. We also believe that the G20 presidency is an opportunity for us. So we are trying to figure out a way to showcase ourselves in front of the world, everything G20 to tell the world that we can offer these solutions because the fact is out of the 200-odd countries in the world, only 70 are now implemented XBRL, the rest will actually follow suit at suit over time. So we actually hope that because of G20, we will raise our visibility. And also the last 2 years has compared many regulators to accelerate their plans to move to a new age regulatory filing platform. And we are quite optimistic that, that will give us the growth resonate required going forward. I know I'm not giving you a number. I know I've not given you a specific answer to the question, but that's the best I can do at this point in time. Saket, do you have a question again.

Sir, as you mentioned about the availability of funds that will define what the growth trajectory would be -- so as earlier a decorated by you that we were looking out for a rights issue. So what is the update on the same? And anything that we are presenting in that you would like to share?

So when we started working on the rights issue, I made it very, very clear that as promoters, we have no one to subscribe to it. People said you can still go ahead with it. And what the market and the price went down. They said then the same people who said, "Oh, it's okay. " Now I'm saying that the promoters don't subscribe it is a very back signal, therefore, you should not do a rights issue. So our hands are tied. I think we will do what's appropriate to get back to a question that Rajesh asked, if we don't raise any funding, we will continue to grow our 10% to 15% to 20% growth rate. In today's funds will do much better. If we throw up more cash, we'll do much better. So those are all factors that will actually get into the whole equation. So as of now, the rights issue is on the standstill situation. nothing much is happening at this point in time. Tushar, do you have a question?

Yes. I'm actually surprised with your answer. Raising money in this market is not very difficult. So it's not right, you can -- you're open to preferential allotment, right.

We are, but not at the current price, the way the market has...

Prices given in the market -- if you want capital, you should just raise it. You should not worry about the price.

I hear you loud and clear Tushar.

How much are you planning to raise?

So we've been looking between INR 30 crores INR 50 crores.

But you do then 2, 3 tranches. Now you don't have to do in 1 tranche.

That's a great suggestion. We've also explored that. I think as I said, right now, in to stand still, we will come back with reasonable answers going forward. I can also add one more question, Tushar, which I think is very important here. We have first generation entrepreneurs. We don't trade in the markets. But perceptions get for frame the markets very, very easily. Today, the 37% holding by promoters, they get pillared by people at large in terms of lower promoter holding. If it goes below a certain level, it gets to be a very bad signal to the market is what we are advised from time to time. I don't have a trading account. My colleagues don't trade in the market. We don't go on buy on the price goes down. We don't sell when the price goes up. But as I said, these are -- they preserve the market sentiments in these ways in this product. I come from a point of view that when you need when you need raise money when money is available, you should raise money. But when all these factors are taken into account the more of a [indiscernible] in case, do you want to do it now? Do you want to do it later. The only profit science is hindsight. So we've not done it. It's the answer now. what will we do going forward? We will take your inputs as well. We will be guided by what the Board says as well, and we will hopefully do what is appropriate.

No. But what kind of valuation are you looking at what valuation are you comfortable to raise the money?

Promoting is not to be greedy.

No, no. Because that's important. You said you are not happy with the current price. So what price are you happy with?

No, no, it's obviously happy in the current price, even 37% is -- [indiscernible] is held by the promoters.

I think that is irrelevant because it's a professionally managed company. So whatever your stake -- I mean, somebody tells you that your stake is low they are idiots. I'm sorry for using that word but they don't know, what is to build a company as a first generation entrepreneur and to build it honestly without tightening of money from the company.

Tushar, the problem actually happens on account of the 25% ceiling that the threshold that SEBI has in terms of promoter holding and the implications that come from going below 25%. So I'm not an expert on compensated matters. So we turn to our layers encompassing increase to advisers on this matter. So they keep telling us that what have you do, you should not go below 25% because...

What happens if you go below 25%.

In my view, nothing, but that's what the legal advise.

No, no, there is nothing happens. Infosys was run with 5% equity by the founders. So nothing happens. -- you are not getting right advice.

Okay. But the point is Infosys a city state where they actually reached a city state where they didn't have to do subsequent fundraises. So I think your point...

Infosys also did a lot of fundraisers -- and so models always had a low stake in Infosys. I don't know who's advising you. And I mean, if you run a company, honestly, you're never going to add money. Unless we have some 3, 5 other businesses where you just cash. Or you cycle of money from here and then you put it back because -- you are not even taking our salaries.

I am now, I'm now taking a salary.

But now you are taking. So how are we going to get money to put in?

We don't have I think the point is well taken, let me take it to the Board as well. Right now, the answer is where we are. What are we going to do tomorrow? I just have an answer to...

I think you should not stop growth of company for lack of capital. I think that will do more harm to the business than good. We get a good adviser on board what I would say because from what you are saying, the opportunity seems to be huge you are still very small, and you can be [indiscernible] somebody with more muscle power. So for want of capital, you should not worry about not raising the capital. I think it will harm the business what you've built so painstakingly over the years, growth is the only way to maintain the business.

I agree totally. Vinit, I hope you heard and convinced to Mr. Bhalo as well.

We'll take the last question from Saket.

Yes, very brief point on -- you are looking for a INR 30 crore infusion into the company, what would that translate into? What kind of opportunity can that money bring on to IRIS. And we just wanted to have that understanding of what multiplier effect it will create.

It depends on how we use it and depends on where we actually use it. There are currently new mandates coming up in America where -- so the bulk of the mine that we actually raised when I say bulk, almost all the other we raise, will actually be used to grow our business in America and Europe, where we've not done too badly so far. The big mandate in America is in the state government's level -- in the government level, where there are 90,000 filers who are expected to file their returns on a monthly basis, we expect it to be a $10,000 per pop -- per unit kind of a revenue possibility. And so we have no basis to come up with a number to what market share we actually get. There's no number to go by. -- but the money will actually be used to chase that opportunity in America if we have the money, along with some similar opportunities in Europe, where there are ESG filings that are coming up, about 50,000 companies in Europe need to file -- make the ESG submissions, we expect the price per highly will be about EUR 1,000-odd. So these are the 2 broad mandates that we will actually chase and hopefully come up with a reasonable benchmark in terms of what market share we can get. That's where we will actually like to go -- that's the -- that's the...

One very small point again, sir, you spoke that when you spoke to your investors earlier about the rights issue -- they -- what was the feedback? I missed your point. You were explaining that first, you went to your investors, I think, so we have only 3,000 out 4,000 shareholders, a very small shareholder base. But when I look at the pedigree of the shareholders holding more than 1%, particularly Mr. Madhusudan Kela who is an AS investor and also I consider that he may be having deep pockets holding 6% equity in a high percent equity in the company. So I just wanted to understand what is the feedback from your investors when you have investors in pedigree like Mr. Kaushik Shekhar and Mr. Madhusudan Kela's family investing around 5%, 6% of the equity subscribing to it. Where is the question of opacity of fund coming? Have they -- have you explained your projections or planned to them I think so these are the guys who can definitely help you with the raising of funds and other activities. If your growth plans have that probability have that and understanding of what you are eyeing, you can get over a period of time. So what's the thought there?

Saket jee, I don't do selective disclosures, I don't pick up the phone make selective disclosure 1 second. I don't make it to for investors. Second about Madhu and Kaushik Shekhar and all, I want you to know that we have on this call to [indiscernible] he is a legendary investor of India. He's one of the most experienced mutual fund investors for a long, long time. I've known from the day he entered the markets. So we are fortunate to have people like this and I'm very great put him for his counsel. We will take it back to our Board and to our management and decide what to do what's appropriate. I know I've already gone over time. It's already 10 minutes over time. I don't want to -- I think that discussion can go on forever. Thank you. Thank you all for joining the call. And I hope that we can keep reposing the faith that you have in us and do good things for our shareholders, of which I'm also one. Thank you very much, again. Bye-bye.

Thank you for joining us today.