ISS A/S (ISS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the ISS Q1 2026 Trading Update Conference Call. I am Mathilde, the Chorus Call operator. The conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Michael Vitfell-Rasmussen, Group Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

Thank you, and good morning, everyone. We appreciate you joining us this morning to discuss our 2026 Q1 released earlier today. I'm Michael Vitfell-Rasmussen, heading up Investor Relations here at ISS. Joining me today in our room is our CEO, Kasper Fangel; our CFO, Mads Holm; and Anne Sophie Riis from the IR team. Before we begin, please take a quick view at the disclaimer, and then I will hand it over to Kasper, to start the presentation. Please move on to Slide #4.

Thank you, Michael, and good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us today as we review our first quarter trading update. We have started the year with a strong performance. In the first quarter, we delivered organic growth of 7.4% with a solid like-for-like contribution of 2% for the second quarter in a row. Growth was supported by a strong above-base contribution, particularly from our European regions. This performance reflects the progress we have made in strengthening our commercial mindset across the organization, all the way down to site level, fully in line with our strategy. More broadly, we continue to strengthen the business across the board during the quarter and made solid progress on all strategic priorities. I will share more details on that in the next slide. We began the year with 7 contract announcements, and I'm pleased to report that 6 of those were positive. This provides a strong foundation for a successful 2026, and supports a continued improvement in the quality of our revenue growth. Also our maturity profile is historically strong at this time of the year, with only 1% of contracts up for renewal for the year. While there's still work ahead of us, we are encouraged by the continuous improvements we are making and the growing momentum across the business. This is also reflected in our pipeline, which remains solid and encouraging as we move further into the year. On our other KPIs, margin and free cash flow, performance is developing in line with expectations, and we, therefore, comfortably reconfirm our full year guidance. Finally, on Deutsche Telekom, we are still awaiting a ruling by the tribunal. In parallel, we are engaging in discussions on a potential settlement aimed at resolving disputed claims, creating clarity on contractual positions going forward and further strengthening the collaboration and partnership between ISS and Deutsche Telekom. We continue to expect a final outcome in the first half of this year. As you all know, last week, we made an agreement to buy Actera's remaining stake in Turkey, where we already have a strong business platform and an attractive long-term market opportunity. The transaction strengthens our ability to fully capture value creation, and we'll deep dive into the business case later in this presentation. Next slide, please. Let me now briefly update you on our strategy and how it continues to translate into execution. Looking back, 2025 was a good year for ISS, and the progress we made is clearly carrying into the first quarter. We have made progress in the areas that matter the most to our business, executing our strategy to deliver profitable growth, delivering consistent financial performance and ensuring strong engagement across the organization. Starting with strategy execution. The first key result is stronger commercial momentum and improved underlying growth. Our strategy is focused. We are targeting new customers in selected segments, expanding with existing customers through additional services and geographical reach and importantly, strengthening commercial ownership at site level. A central ambition has been to ensure that our strategy moves out of the PowerPoint and down to site level so that both our placemakers and our customers can feel a tangible difference in day-to-day execution. The progress we are seeing in the first quarter confirms that this is happening. In parallel, we are seeing good momentum in the rollout of scalable initiatives. These initiatives are deliberately few and practical, focused on areas where scale matters the most, enabling growth, engaging our people and delivering services in a simpler and more efficient way. Embedment is progressing well, and we see clear traction across markets. Turning to financial performance. Our #1 priority is continued consistency quarter after quarter. In the first quarter, we delivered organic growth of 7.4%, reflecting solid underlying momentum. And as I said, margin and free cash flow are developing as expected, supported by disciplined execution. Finally, on engagement, we continue to see strong momentum across the organization. ISS is a people business, and engagement is critical to delivering high-quality services and sustainable financial performance. We recorded the highest ever participation in our recent employee survey, giving us deeper insights and a stronger basis for action. At the same time, cross-organizational initiatives are being implemented, reinforcing collaboration, clarity and accountability across the business. Overall, Q1 confirms that our strategy is delivering as planned. Strategy execution is on track, financial performance is consistent and engagement across the organization remains strong. With these elements aligned, we are well positioned for the next phase of growth. Next slide, please. As you already know, last week, we reached an agreement with Actera, the private equity fund that invested alongside us in Turkey back in 2021. That partnership was designed from the outset as a structured and derisked way to enter a high potential market and accelerate growth, particularly within government health care. It allowed us to scale faster in a complex market environment while sharing risk and benefiting from Actera's strong local expertise. Today, ISS Turkey is a significant part of the group as one of our largest countries. The business generates around DKK 6.5 billion in revenue, equivalent to roughly 8% of group revenue, with margins and cash conversion above group average. With 45,000 employees, Turkey is also our largest country by number of colleagues, highlighting both the scale and strategic importance of the platform we have built. Since entering the partnership, the business has scaled significantly, delivering a revenue CAGR of around 25% from 2021 to 2025 in Danish kroner. The collaboration with Actera has been instrumental in that journey and has helped position ISS Turkey as a strong and resilient platform in a dynamic market environment. Importantly, this was always a partnership with a clear industrial logic and with a shared understanding that a future ownership change could be considered, provided it happened at the right time and at the right price. As we have communicated earlier, an increase in ownership was always contingent on the transaction, meeting the criteria of our capital allocation policy. As you know, we consistently weigh M&A opportunities against organic growth investments and share buybacks, and we apply the same criteria here. Turkey is a high potential growth market, supported by a structural outsourcing trend. Customers are increasingly transitioning from smaller local providers to professional integrated facility services providers, and ISS Turkey benefits directly from that shift. We see a strong commercial pipeline, particularly driven by multiservice contracts within Life Science and Financial Services, 2 core group segments, which strongly supports the strategic and capital allocation logic behind this transaction. Next slide, please. Turning to the financial implications. This transaction is fundamentally about gaining full control of a highly attractive cash flow stream at a price that clearly makes sense for ISS and for our shareholders. By increasing ownership, we get access to Actera's cash flow generation of the Turkish business. And importantly, the transaction is EPS accretive with a clear positive spread versus buying back our own shares. The combination of lower interest costs -- as we are now able to change the capital structure of the local entity -- along with the reduction in minority interest, translate into an EPS uplift of around 3%, which is meaningful. Finally, on leverage, the impact is very limited, increasing net debt to EBITDA by only around 0.1x, keeping us fully within our capital allocation framework and financial policy. To sum up, we already have a strong position in an attractive and growing market. This transaction carves out complexity and uncertainty, and I'm convinced that the Turkish business will accelerate further going forward. Next slide, please. Let me now turn to our contract announcements. Since our last update, we have continued doing what we do best, helping our customers create exceptional service moments at their workplaces. Our focus remains clear, delivering outstanding customer experiences every day, driven by our self-delivery model and a strong service mindset. You will be very familiar with this slide by now, but it remains an important one as it clearly illustrates that our strategic efforts are paying off. A significant part of our growth continues to come from existing customers. This is a lower risk and high-impact way to expand as we already understand their needs. They trust our capabilities, and we are well positioned to extend and deepen our partnerships. When it comes to new business, we continue to target our 4 core segments, which represents the most attractive long-term opportunities globally for ISS. At the same time, we remain open to local segments when the business case is compelling. What is important is discipline, prioritizing opportunities where our value proposition truly resonates and where we can deliver high-quality profitable growth. Demand for workplace experience continues to increase across markets, and ISS is well positioned to capture that demand. Our strong execution in the first quarter, combined with the contract announcements we have made and the pipeline we see today, reinforces our confidence going forward. Taken together, our 2025 announcements and the momentum we have carried into the start of the year indicate that 2026 will be a year where we continue to grow revenues with higher quality, supported by solid customer relationships, disciplined execution and a strong pipeline. With that, let's turn to the next slide. Let me now turn to the development in our growth composition and what underpins the quality of our performance. As you know, over the last couple of years, organic growth has primarily been driven by price increases, including a significant contribution from our exposure in Turkey. At the same time, net new wins were negatively impacted by contract trimming and exits, largely driven by deliberate strategic choices to improve the quality of our portfolio. Over the past year, we have made important progress on that front. Through a continued focus on portfolio optimization, we exited 2025 in a position that is positive from an underlying growth perspective, something that we have not seen for several years. This improvement is the result of disciplined execution, stronger commercial focus and a clear prioritization of where we want to grow. As you can see on the slide, both net new wins and volume growth have improved meaningfully. And this represents the second quarter in a row where we are seeing stronger underlying growth quality. This development is closely linked to the strategic themes I highlighted earlier: a leaner organization, clear accountability, stronger commercial ownership at site level and momentum in the rollout of scalable initiatives. Going forward, we expect our increased focus to continue securing growth with existing customers while adding new customers to the portfolio, supported by targeted commercial investments and discipline. Looking ahead to our growth algorithm for 2026 and beyond, we expect both volume and net new wins to become a larger contributor to organic growth. At the same time, pricing is expected to be lower than in recent years. This shift is an important component of our ambition to continue improving revenue quality over time. With that, let's turn to the next slide. Before I conclude the business update, I would like to briefly address our contract maturity profile. During the first quarter, we have made very good progress in extending contracts up for renewal. We reduced our maturity profile from 4% to 1%, which represents a historical low level for ISS. In the first quarter alone, we successfully extended a large contract of more than DKK 700 million in addition to several extensions above DKK 200 million. This outcome reflects stronger commercial discipline, earlier engagement with customers and a more proactive approach to managing expiries. Importantly, this ties directly back to the strategy and execution of stronger commercial ownership, clear accountability and a more focused organization. We are seeing tangible results from our increased attention to contract maturities. Staying ahead of expirations regardless of size is critical to protecting revenue and supporting sustainable growth. With that, I will now hand over to Mads for an update on our financials.

Thanks, Kasper. Let me walk you through the organic growth for the first quarter. In first quarter, we delivered organic growth of 7.4% with contribution from all 4 growth levers; pricing, volume, net new, and above-base. While we expected both volume and net new to be solid, we saw stronger-than-anticipated contribution from above-base revenue, primarily driven by Europe. This is an important proof point and ties directly back to the strategy update from Kasper. The performance reflects a stronger commercial mindset at site level, clear accountability and better execution closer to the customer, all of which are key elements of our strategy. Starting with net new, performance in the quarter was positively impacted by DWP, COWI, Velux and Australian Defense as well as contract start-up across Central and Southern Europe. These wins reflect both our focused approach to targeting group segments and our ability to convert opportunities into high-quality contracts. Turning to volume. This was negatively impacted by the 2 contract reduction in Northern Europe announced at the beginning of 2025 and in the third quarter of 2025. However, this was more than offset by the full quarter effect of the expansion in Brisbane in Australia, Virgin in Northern Europe as well as other contract expansions from 2025. As a result, when combining net new volume, we are pleased to report another solid quarter with like-for-like growth of 2%. This marks the second quarter in a row with strong underlying growth quality, and we continue to see this trend going forward in 2026. Finally, above-base revenue for the quarter ended at 1.5%, driven by broad-based strong performance across the European regions, including a contribution from DWP. Overall, first quarter confirms that our organic growth is becoming more balanced, more diversified and increasingly driven by the right underlying factors, consistent with the strategy and commercial priorities we have outlined. Next slide, please. Overall, all regions, except the Americas delivered positive organic growth in the first quarter, in line with our expectation. Starting with Northern Europe, the region delivered organic growth of 7%, supported by the start-up of contracts from 2025, as well as 2026, such as COWI and DWP and the expansions of Virgin. Growth was partly offset by the announced contract loss in the third quarter of 2025, as well as scope reduction announced in third quarter 2025 and one in first quarter 2025. I would also like to highlight a strong above-base performance across the region, reflecting improved commercial execution. In Central and Southern Europe, we continue to see strong growth with organic growth of 10% in the first quarter. This was primarily driven by price increases, particularly related to Turkey. In addition, we saw solid above-base performance and a positive contribution from net new wins, confirming the continued momentum in the region. Turning to Asia Pacific. Organic growth was 6% for the quarter. Performance was particularly strong in Pacific, India, Singapore, Indonesia, driven by the start-up of Australia Defense and volume growth with existing customers. As a reminder, roughly half of the contract announced in 2025 originated from Asia and Pacific, underlying the strength of our position in the region. Finally, in the Americas, performance developed as expected. Organic growth was negatively impacted by net new, driven by smaller losses, while volume growth was solid in the quarter. In the U.S., organic growth was broadly flat. Chile was negatively impacted by smaller losses, while Mexico delivered solid growth. At our upcoming Capital Markets Day, we will provide a deep dive into our U.S. business and share further insight on our strategy going forward. That said, I'm encouraged to see early signs of underlying stabilization, including a small positive net new position in the quarter driven by smaller wins. Overall, the regional performance in the first quarter reinforces the broader message you have heard today. Growth is increasingly broad-based, execution improving and underlying quality continues to strengthen, consistent with the strategy and commercial focus we have outlined. Next slide, please. Finally, let me provide an update on our capital returns for the year. In April, we paid out the proposed dividend of around DKK 500 million, corresponding to DKK 3.2 per share. Our share buyback program initiated in connection with the full year result is also progressing as planned. As of yesterday, we have purchased shares worth around DKK 500 million under the total DKK 2.5 billion program. In addition, we got the authorization to cancel 14.2 million shares at the AGM in April. This reduces the total share count to 160 million, corresponding to more than 8% reduction in the total share count. Combining the dividend and the ongoing buyback, ISS is delivering a healthy payout yield of 8%. This strong yield reflects our disciplined approach to capital allocation. Rather than sitting on excess cash, we consistently deploy it where we can create the most value for our shareholders, as you heard Kasper stating earlier. You're all familiar with our capital allocation priorities by now. And as you know, we only proceed with M&A if these meet our strict capital allocation criteria. This year, we have announced a minor acquisition of Cater Plus in New Zealand, a bolt-on acquisition with the purpose of bringing our catering footprint in New Zealand and where we've already seen clear operational and strategic benefits. In addition, we are assessing a bolt-on opportunity that will significantly strengthen our market position in a specific region with a clear and tangible synergy case from the outset. As always, we will only proceed if it meets our strict capital allocation criteria. We will share more details when finalized. With that, I'll hand it back to Kasper. Please turn to Slide 17.

Thank you, Mads. Let me finish with a few comments on our outlook. With the first quarter behind us, I can confidently reconfirm our guidance for 2026. Q1 delivered a strong start to the year and supports our expectation of continued sustainable growth going forward. Across all of ISS' markets, we see significant opportunities to grow our business, supported by our targeted investments and the strengthening of our commercial function. We continue to expect organic growth above 5% in 2026. Pricing is still expected to be the main contributor to organic growth, driven partly by Turkey. However, as you have seen today, we also expect a more balanced contribution from the other growth levers. Project and above-base had a strong start to the year, but as usual, visibility remains more limited. As outlined earlier, our commercial initiative on growing with existing customers is paying off, and we expect this to contribute meaningfully to the growth in 2026. In parallel, we are delivering on our focused execution to secure new customers within our targeted segments, and we continue to strengthen the commercial mindset at site level to spot and capture above-base opportunities. All of this is consistent with the progress we have shared with you today with improved growth quality, stronger commercial momentum and disciplined execution. On margins, we are also on track and therefore, reconfirm our guidance of a margin above 5%. Overall, Q1 has given us a strong and encouraging start to the year. Execution is on track. Our strategy is delivering, and we remain confident in our ability to continue building a high-quality, sustainable growth platform for ISS. Next slide, please. We keep a relentless focus on cash flow in ISS, and we are on track to deliver a cash conversion of above 60%. This equals above DKK 2.7 billion in underlying cash flow, adjusting for the DKK 200 million negative impact from the 2025 prepayment. We expect free cash flow of above DKK 2.5 billion before any positive impacts from Deutsche Telekom. We still expect payment from Deutsche Telekom for the amount withheld in the past, which will bring our expectations to the free cash flow, including Deutsche Telekom payments at above DKK 3.1 billion for the full year. Please turn to the next and final slide. As we wrap up today, let me briefly step back and highlight how ISS' strategy and performance come together to deliver sustainable shareholder value. Our equity story is clear. ISS holds a strong market leadership position in a global facility service market that continues to grow above GDP. We combine this with a relentless focus on profitability, disciplined execution and a clear commercial agenda. Strong cash flow gives us the flexibility to reinvest in the business while continuing to return capital to shareholders, underpinned by the disciplined capital allocation and a strong sustainability agenda that provides a real competitive advantage. Turning briefly to performance. Q1 marks a strong start to the year. We delivered another quarter of solid execution, with improved growth quality, strengthening commercial momentum and consistent financial performance, demonstrating the resilience of ISS in an uncertain environment. Looking ahead, our focus is unchanged to deliver as we promise quarter after quarter. We are investing in the business, strengthening our commercial organization, simplifying how we operate and building a stronger ISS. The strategy is clear. The investments are in place and accountability across the organization has never been stronger. Let me finish by thanking our placemakers. Your dedication and professionalism define ISS and earn the trust of our customers every day. And to our customers, thank you for your continued partnership. 2026 is shaping up to be an exciting year for ISS as we build on strong momentum and celebrate our 125 years anniversary, a milestone that reflects the strength of our people, our customer relationships and the ISS platform. With that, we conclude today's presentation, and we'll now take your questions. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from the line of Mads Brinkmann from Berenberg.

Just 2 quick ones for me. You did provide some color on the above-base. I was just wondering, I think you talked about DWP and actually doing some above-base work for them. But maybe just please, if you could add some color on the strength of above-base in Europe and whether that is predominantly driven by new clients, including DWP? And what -- I mean, outside of that, what kind of project work or above-base work it is? I mean that is one of them, whether it's essentially more variable or whether it's the work that is more sort of, I mean, contractual, but not necessarily in the contracts. I don't know if I'm explaining that well, but that would be the first one, please. On the second one, I mean the Americas, obviously as expected, I guess, at least the U.S. And I think based on some of the comments from, I think, the Chairman at the AGM, you expect to start to see some wins this year. And I think you also alluded to a small net positive, Mads. Maybe I caught that right, but please if you could confirm that. But just on Americas, like when will we start to see the sort of bigger wins here and maybe also not just the DKK 100 million, but essentially, I mean, stuff between DKK 300 million and DKK 500 million. Do have any sort of hope that this will happen this year? Or is it a 2027 thing? That's all for me.

Thank you, Mads. Two good questions. Let me start with your question around the U.S. So just to get the data right, in the first quarter, the U.S. growth was flat. So flat organic growth in Q1. And I'm actually pleased with the progress -- underlying progress in the U.S. in the first quarter. Obviously, I'm not pleased with flat growth. We got to see a return from the investments, but I'm convinced it will come through over time. In the first quarter, our pipeline has become more lucrative. We have moved further ahead in our discussions with the prospects, the opportunities we have in the U.S. I can see that in the conversations we are having with the decision-makers in the U.S. is getting much more detailed. And I can see that our value proposition starts to resonate with our potential customers in the U.S. So I am still of the belief that it's a matter of time before we will start to see an accelerated growth in the U.S., but I don't -- still don't want to commit to timing. I have been enough years in this business and in this company where I've been surprised about the positive conversations with customers where decision-making progress has dragged on longer than what I expected, and I expected a decision to be just around the corner. And therefore, I don't want to put forward a specific quarter and say this is the quarter where you will -- you should expect the growth to really come through in the U.S. But I want to be clear, of course, we want to have positive growth, significant growth in the U.S. The investments we are making are the right ones and the underlying movement in securing that has moved in the first quarter of this year. In terms of your question on project work and the contribution to organic growth in the first quarter, then DWP is definitely a part of that. We have a positive contribution of approximately 1.5% on project work in the first quarter. And it's just pleasing to see the strong mobilization that our U.K. team have done. Remember, we did some investments to establish a project team well in advance of us going live exactly for the reasons that we are seeing now coming through that we knew about the pipeline and the opportunities on DWP, and we could deliver accordingly, and that is coming through. And no reason to believe that this shouldn't stick. Is it going to be to the same magnitude specifically on DWP? I don't know, but it's definitely not going to fade away to 0. Overall, on above-base work and project work in general, we remain cautious because the visibility is always lower, what is going to happen in the second quarter, especially with what we're seeing in the world around the Middle East and energy prices being at record high levels. Is that going to impact the discretionary spend on the customer side? We don't see that as a signal as of today, but could it change over the next quarter or so? Of course, it could. But again, it's not that we are seeing a collapse today. Actually, it is in line with what we have generated in the first quarter.

Just to follow up on the last bit. So essentially, you're saying so far in Q2, you're running at the same pace that you saw in Q1 on above-base?

I mean, of course, we're not far into Q2. We obviously have provisionary actuals or numbers for April, and that also looks to be a solid month for ISS.

The next question comes from the line of Kristian Godiksen from SEB.

A couple of questions from my side. So first of all, just interested in the sequential change in the expected development in like-for-like and price development from the slide you showed in Q4 with the Q4 results. And then compared to this time, especially for the like-for-like in Q4 2026, it seems like that's lower now. And maybe could you also comment on the uncertainty in the growth composition from prices in Q4 2026? The second question, it sounds like based on the prepared remarks from Mads that you're looking into a sizable M&A transaction, and that is fairly imminent. And I guess the deal certainty must be high, based on you mentioning on the Board. I guess, can you provide some more color on the size and bolt-on in terms of what, I guess, the U.S. continues to be premature in terms of the organization being ready to make a sizable acquisition.

Thank you, Kristian. Two good questions, as always, from you. Let me take the first one, and then Mads will take the next one. So actually, the contribution to underlying growth, so both growth with existing customers, scope and also net new contract wins is ballpark the same in the first quarter compared to the fourth quarter last year. And in terms of prices, the contribution is also ballpark the same in the first quarter compared to what we had in the fourth quarter. So it's actually pretty much the same contribution from a percentage point of view in the first quarter of this year compared to the last quarter of last year. Mads, over to you for comments on the second question.

Yes. Thank you very much, Kristian. So first of all, this is a great opportunity for ISS. But let me underpin, we are talking about a bolt-on acquisition and negotiations are still ongoing. Why this place? Well, first of all, it's a place that -- where we have a strong management team, is aligned with our strategy. It's also aligned with the capital allocation policy. And that means, Kristian, that it fulfills all the checks and balances that we have talked of before. The other part is that when we look from the case as such, this is also a clear synergy case similar to exactly what we have done in recent years and where we had illustrated to the market that we have been able to provide value. And also, more importantly, even with this acquisition, we are still within our leverage ratio at the end of the year, which means 2x to 2.5x. So all should be very clear and very similar to earlier transactions.

Kristian, I'm -- we are lucky that we have a good IR team here in the room that said they believe your question was more related to -- not to the fourth quarter of 2025. The first one I answered, but what is happening over the course of this year, so the fourth quarter of '26; and there, I would just say that the thing to point out that you need to be aware of is, of course, the comparison on net new because we had DWP volume DKK 300 million in the fourth quarter of last year. So we're up against a strong comparison. From growth with existing customers, the visibility we have as of today, we believe that that is going to be ballpark the same over the course of this year.

Yes. It was more to the sequential change that from what you presented in connection with the Q4 results. I'm specifically referring to the Slide 10 in terms of where they overlap previously and you also have a bigger tail downwards in terms of like-for-like at the new slide compared to the one you had in Q4. So I was a bit more curious on that one. It seems like also the price composition is a bit more uncertain now than it was previously or at least in a more upwards going direction.

Yes. I think you had my comments before. I mean, remember, this is an illustration. I think I provided the color, so I'll just duplicate what I just said before. But remember, of course, this is an illustration on the chart.

We now have a question from the line of Allen Wells from Jefferies.

Just a couple from me, please. Firstly, can I -- just looking at the pricing side of the business, obviously, the guidance for the full year, I think its 3.5-ish percent is strong, obviously, pricing in Q1, and that does suggest a downward trend in pricing through the year. As we sit here today, obviously, with inflation creeping up more energy-based and obviously wage base. But how do you think about that trend? And what would be the drivers of the deflationary environment from here? Specifically, when we think about Turkey, I'm assuming that the acquisition growth and the pricing impact will be captured in M&A growth this year. But as you think about the mid-term and you comment on lower pricing moving forward, how does the additional exposure to Turkey drive group pricing over that mid-term? I'm assuming it's going to be accretive to the pricing story. That's my first couple of questions. Secondly, just as we think about the above-base business, the comments you make suggest there's been some kind of momentum around the commercial mindset within the business. And we've talked before around a structural shift in certain areas where some customers are just looking at less contracted more above-base. Can you maybe just update us on that? Are we going to see a period of just slightly higher above-base moving through this business? And then maybe just linked to that, any comment around the margins on above-base work, which used to be quite accretive. In more recent years, you've talked about it being more neutral. But is that still the case moving forward?