Jamf Holding Corp. (JAMF) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Thanks, everybody. My name is Josh Reilly, and I'm an analyst on the enterprise software team here at Needham. This morning, at the Needham Tech and Media Conference, we have Jamf CEO, Dean Hager; and CFO, Jill Putman, to discuss the company. We will leave some time for audience questions at the end, which can be entered in the Q&A box, and I will facilitate those at that point. But starting off here, Dean, maybe you can give us a brief overview of Jamf and your position in the MDM markets.

Yes. I'd be happy to. Thanks for the question. And first of all, thank you for having us here today, where we really appreciate the time. So Jamf is the standard in Apple Enterprise Management, which is a market that we created and now lead. We define it really simply, as that space between what Apple builds and what the enterprise requires, and we don't limit our expansion within that space at all. Now some will use the term MDM, or mobile device management, that talk about that space we're in. And just for clarity, MDM is an important technical framework, but it alone is not a solution. It actually, that framework only helps us accomplish a fraction of what we do for our customers. And of course, speaking of customers, we have over 50,000 customers globally, running over 21.8 million devices with Jamf. And of course, those are all Apple devices. And in Q1 alone, we added a net of 3,000 customers, which should tell you our churn rate is pretty low, and our new logo rate for coming in is pretty high. And those 3,000 customers, we also added 1.4 million devices, Apple devices in Q1 alone. Now our vertical focus, we refer to that, we have a vertical focus on Apple, and we compete with some that have more of a horizontal focus by solution in the industry. And it really delivers us 3 things: One is we're able to innovate at the pace of Apple. So Apple never has to worry whether their Jamf customers will be -- will support the latest Apple tech when it comes out. And so they love us for that and so do our customers. Second is we're able to solve more complex problems for the enterprise with more complex workflows, which allows us to hold price and it really gives us a strong Net Promoter Score of greater than 54. And then finally, it also gives us a very effective and efficient go-to-market rhythm because we're very focused in what we deliver. In every region we go into, we typically go in with very powerful friends like Apple and Microsoft. We actually improve their solutions in whatever market we go into. So good differentiated solution, large loyal base and an effective go-to-market channel is all [indiscernible]

Awesome. So the big news in the quarter is the acquisition of Wandera. Can you explain the rationale for the deal, including the opportunity to secure iOS devices, given the potential growth for iPhones and iPads that you can be taking up on here with the Jamf business plan?

Yes, absolutely. Thanks for the question, again. Let me give you just a quick backdrop first, so they understand why this was an important market for us to enter into. So one of Jamf's strengths is in the large $12 billion TAM that we go-to-market in, we don't just pepper spray in that market. We're very surgical in how we go to market. We target a segment of the market, we provide a differentiated solution, we win it. And usually, that segment will then help us win the next market segment that we go after. So for instance, we've won the education segment. That segment helped us win the health care segment. We also are the leader in the Mac Apple -- or Apple Mac deployment, really across all industries, which is why 22 of the top 25 brands in the world run Jamf. But recently, this Mac strength, winning that segment, has led to tremendous growth in the largest segment of the TAM, the iOS commercial market. Because more and more organizations are going, well, "Hey, I've already got my Macs in Jamf, let's move over my iOS devices as well." Enter Wandera. Wandera now brings us a whole new set of solutions for that mobile side of Apple, specifically threat defense so that they can help fight off phishing attacks that might come into a mobile device, enforcing data policies like cellular data usage and Zero Trust Network Access that can run across all Apple devices and will eventually replace VPNs. So all of Wandera solutions have a few things in common. They're in high demand around the world as security threats become more dangerous and are targeted as Apple, as you read all the time in the press. Two is they bring specific value to Jamf customers and are additive to Jamf solutions with no overlap. And three, they're improved with tighter integration with Jamf. In fact, Wandera is Jamf's very first acquisition where every single one of the 21.8 million devices that Jamf runs on, every single one of those will have more value delivered to it if it were running one of the Wandera's solutions. So our entire base is open for these solutions, and we are so excited for our very strong go-to-market, our salespeople to get their hands on these new solutions.

Awesome. I think that's a pretty good overview there. So you -- as we know, you guys have a pretty significant presence in the education market that experienced a pretty nice tailwind in '20 as the device-to-student ratio continued to increase with distance learning. While commercial remains kind of on-trend with some impact to the SMB side of the business in 2020, how would you summarize the impact of COVID on demand and sales cycles over the last year across your segments?

Yes. Why don't we invite Jill to the party here and get that one over to her?

Good morning, everybody. Glad to take this one. So when we think of COVID over the past year, we think about our 2 primary business segments, commercial and education. We think of COVID as actually being net neutral to us across the segments. And in fact, we hit our plan for the year, but we got there in a different way. It was a different mix, our education versus commercial. And where we actually saw a little bit of softness on commercial where there were budget cuts, headcount reductions, IT projects got delayed. That would have caused a little softness there. We actually saw a benefit or a neutralizing factor on the education side with some of the government funding programs that were put in place. And what happened with education is rather than just the summer being kind of the hump in the busy season of the purchasing cycle in the U.S., we saw that purchasing cycle extend. And in fact, it extended throughout 2020, throughout the first quarter. It's extended even into the second quarter here this year. And it's not only just that government funding, though, that we think is benefiting and will benefit the future periods. It's really this what we think of as an awakening that has occurred, where the school districts and the educators have been awakened to the concept of the importance of the technology in the hands of each student. And that's really what we're envisioning in order to put our crystal ball in front of us, that's what we're seeing is and we're also starting to see more government funding programs open up, particularly outside of the U.S. throughout Europe, virtually every large country has announced funding that they're putting into the schools that will continue through '21. In fact, some of those programs won't even get ramped until 2022. So again, still some future land grab there. Oh, I would also point out that given that mix, our commercial business still outpaces our education growth rate, both very strong through the quarter or throughout the year on every quarter, but commercial still by far outpaces education, both at very, very healthy rates.

Awesome. Good color there. So your go-to-market domestically has a heavier direct mix, while internationally, deals typically are more partner-led. Why is that the right model for Jamf? And do you anticipate making any changes as COVID ends and you secondly integrate Wandera?

I'll grab that one, Dean.

Yes.

Well, when we look at our mix in our go-to-market, international versus domestic. Internationally, we do rely more heavily on our channel partners. About 80% of our business goes through the channel. And that's really what allows us to expand our stretch into more markets over there. We have more geographies where we don't have feet on the -- boots on the ground yet. We don't anticipate that changing. In fact, Wandera coming on board is going to help strengthen our position in Europe or in EMEA, especially with their carrier relationships, which is -- that's actually something we've been trying to crack into and expand our presence with the carriers. And so we're really looking forward to that opportunity and the strength that they have there. And then on the U.S. side, we're about 50-50 when it comes to direct versus through the channel. We don't expect to make any dramatic changes. We're always looking for more go-to-market routes. And so we'll take an advantage of those. And then specific to post-COVID or how COVID has impacted that whole go-to-market rhythm, we really didn't notice a change there and didn't take a change in our positioning and really don't expect to make any changes going forward other than to continue to focus on strengthening our partner channels.

Got it. That makes sense. Switching to Jamf business plan, which I think is a super intriguing topic. So the whole focus of charging per user versus device seems to me to be the future of the MDM market. Will the per user pricing structure lead to lower customer churn over time? And do you anticipate faster adoption by either new or existing customers of the plan?

Jill, do you want to at one, too?

Yes, I can take that one. And there's several questions buried in there. So it makes right that I take all of them. So first of all, the full notion of pricing per user versus device, it really removes some of that friction in acquiring more products beyond MDM. So that's one of the advantages we see, and we're getting really strong feedback from our existing customers who are purchasing it. And as a reminder, we offered it to new customers last year and then just this recent spring started offering that feature to our existing customers. And again, getting really good feedback there. The existing customers will tend to add that when they come up for renewal, that's kind of their buying cycle. So the renewal cycle will really dictate the timing of that. We do think it's going to create some stickiness. The more products that you have deployed with this particular vendor, the stickier it's going to get overall. But at this point, we're just really pleased with the traction we're getting with the new customers and more recently with our existing customers. And then when it comes to -- I think there was a question in there about -- was there a question there about the pricing? Did you have a question on the pricing?

I think it was more just about the churn, charging per user versus per device and how that's going to impact churn? And then I think you kind of covered, are you seeing faster uptake by either new or existing customers with the business plan?

Yes. At this point, it's been new -- the new customers just because it's just more recently offered to existing, but we do have existing customers giving us good feedback and getting attention.

Yes. Awesome.

With the new customers we're seeing, it's just a natural rhythm of when they -- because remember, they very frequently recall us for Mac because we're the standard within Mac. And so it just gives an immediate response back to that customer, well, maybe you should take our whole suite in. So we've just found it's been very effective but new with all of those.

Yes. Awesome. Yes. All right. When you look at your business versus some of the other vendors in the space, I think it's important for investors to understand that your mix is much higher towards Macs versus smartphones. And there's a lot of implications overall in the business positively for that. What has been kind of the key driver for you to win such large share of Mac management?

Yes. And thanks for pointing that out. Now for clarification, some people won't expect this as well. Of the 21.8 million devices, about 2/3 are iOS and iPad OS devices and about 1/3 are Mac. But as we all know, the iPad OS and iOS market is so much bigger that our percentage of that market is small versus our percentage on the Mac side is actually the leading market share provider, we believe. And the simple reason is really twofold. One, we've been doing it a long time. We started on the Mac in 2002, and we've accumulated a lot of loyal customers over those years. But two is, we do it the best that when you take a look, I get asked frequently, who is the #2 Mac player out there? And there really is no simple answer to that question because when you run thousands of customers, including 22 of the top 25 brands in the world, #2 is a tie between a whole bunch of providers that are out there. And if you were to really look at who #2 is, it's more than likely at least at scale, IT organizations grabbing some open source and doing some custom development in-house. There really isn't another provider that you could consider the #2 in the market. So it's created this wonderful beachhead for Jamf within enterprises that are already running us for Mac. And so that creates 3 growth trajectories for us, the fact that we're already there. One is we grow as Mac grows. And as anybody can see in the market, the Mac is continuing to grow, what IDC in Q1 had Mac'ed on for 111.5% year-over-year growth. So as this new demographic is coming into the workforce, the Mac is growing. But then number two is we have a growth trajectory of the business and say, well, hey, let's move our iOS devices over to the same system we have or Mac in because after all, they actually are managed more like Mac than they are like Android, so it makes more sense to combine them. And then the third is going to be our customers choosing to buy more product from Jamf like Jamf Connect, like Jamf Protect. And now with Wandera, we got several more solutions that we can sell back into that base.

Yes. I think that's a really helpful color there. Moving on to the workflows. I think this is another really key point of differentiation for you guys. So right now, you have some health care retail, and I think some transportation use cases. Should we expect to see more of these branching out to additional verticals? Or are you going to get deeper in the ones that you're in right now?

The short answer is absolutely. You should expect to see more of it in posted customers. It's actually one of the most differentiating elements of Jamf. As I said, we go after segments that we just do things that nobody else is willing to do. That's why we don't refer to ourselves as a device management company. We think of ourselves as problem solvers and workflow enablers. We don't envision the device, we envision what journey that device is going to go on. So just some practical examples, as you've already cited. If you ever want to see a classroom get completely out of control, give everyone of the students a computer or a tablet and watch what happens, unless they're running Jamf because we give the teacher control of that classroom. If you're going to try and implement a clinical communications mobile solution within a hospital because of HIPAA compliance and shift workers turning over, that is a -- sorry, about the dog, that is actually kind of a nightmare example where IT ask others come into help, unless you're running Jamf because we've automated that workflow. For airlines, the iPad is a great tool for the electronic flight bag. But you don't want anybody in content streaming Netflix while they're in there, and that's a very unique workflow. Really, any industry where workers safety is an issue. You want to be able to get them the capabilities, but you want to prevent any distraction. So a Jamf is great at deploying iPhones and iPads for almost any reason. But these industry-specific workflow reasons, we're -- we have patented technology that sets us aside from anybody else in the industry.

Yes, I think that's really helpful. So a common question that I get from investors here on the name is how does Apple's acquisition of Fleetsmith impact your business? And then maybe you can just kind of go over what you're seeing in the market from Apple and Fleetsmith? And maybe what you think their rationale for buying the company was originally?

Yes. So when Apple acquired Fleetsmith, we were so bothered by that, but I think the following week we filed our public S-1. So we said at the time that it was going to have little to no impact on our business. And here a year later, honestly speaking, it had less than that. I mean there's been not even no material impact on the business. There's been no impact on the business. We still believe that the primary purpose of that acquisition was to improve the Apple Business Manager with an Apple cloud service on which we build our solutions because Apple's about frameworks, not enterprise solutions. They provide the frameworks, they allow other to provide the solution. So Apple Business Manager is the framework on which we build. So that acquisition, we believe, was largely an acqui-hire to be able to strengthen that service, which we're excited about. We do believe Apple will provide some single-source, very low-end device management capabilities, predominantly targeting organizations that don't want anything today. So we actually see that as an opportunity as well because we will seek out the opportunity to target that new base coming to the management market and growing them up then through Jamf. So every which way we've looked at this, including speaking with our good friend at Apple, we see this as a net advantage for Jamf over the years.

Awesome. Yes, I think that's really helpful to understand the dynamic there. Maybe switching over to some financial questions here. So one of the key topics investors are currently focused on is ARR growth, given adoption of Jamf business plan over the next few years. What are your expectations on the pace of adoption impacting ARR for managed device? And then I just -- yes, I think that's pretty important to understand here.

Yes. I'll take that one, Josh. So yes, so we're still super early on in the business plan launch. We just launched it, again, as a reminder, in October of 2020. Getting good feedback, like we said earlier. Getting good at -- we're happy with the attach rate we're getting. When it comes to the pricing per device, it's a bundling of our Pro, Connect and Protect. And at list price, if you do the math, it's about a 15% benefit off of list price bundled. When it comes to realized pricing because of our tiered pricing structure for volume-based purchasing, if you blend that against what we're currently getting on business plan, what we expect to get. We're modeling on average, let's say, that each user has 2 devices. We don't know what the exact number is yet. It's still kind of early, but if we were just to model that the devices, where there -- where business plan is being acquired, we're going to expect to see about a 25% to 30% increase in the price per device -- in the ARR per device versus if they just bought the stand-alone, one of the stand-alone products. And when we think about what's the opportunity and upside even beyond that, well, if you think about Wandera and bring 3 new products into the portfolio, gives us even more opportunities to add more solutions to the bundle. And so we see this as, it's definitely going to add upside. It's too soon to tell exactly how fast it's going to ramp and when it's going to hit. But at this point, we should -- we're modeling it to probably have more of a material impact a year -- probably in 2022, it will start to fill a bit more material.

And we should expect that any of the Wandera apps are going to potentially increase that $12 a month list price, right? That's -- or is that to be determined.

TBD. We'll call that TBD.

All right. Awesome. Okay. So based on my math with device counts, ARR growth for education and commercial, you mentioned that commercial was still ahead of education, but they were much closer than they maybe normally would have been due to the COVID boost. My model has education slowing to a mid-teens ARR growth over the next few years with mid-20s commercial ARR growth sustainable. Is that how you're thinking about the model? Or kind of what's the long-term growth rate for each of those segments?

So I would say that those are a little bit light from where we've been and probably a little bit light from where we expect the growth rates to normalize back to, if that's how the modeling is. We've -- again, commercial does outpace education. But education has historically grown closer to 20% year-over-year and where we would have gotten a boost this past year. Will we go back to the growth rates we saw before? Again, we see some upside opportunity with some of the government funding programs and that awakening and embracing of technology. So we don't expect anything to dip below where we were, but we see probably a little bit of opportunity for growth rates a little bit faster. And on commercial, it's really going to depend on what -- when we're theorizing is bringing workers back and then freeing up the budget spend that was frozen for IT projects. And specifically in SMB market, we're going to start to see that come back faster, starting to see some good traction there. But commercial is going to grow quite a bit faster and has grown quite a bit faster than education.

Awesome. Yes. And I just wanted to point out my estimates, that's basically what's in line with consensus. So...

Yes.

All right. So moving on here. Historically, you guys have done a really good job of balancing growth and profitability. Now with the Wandera acquisition, you've added some leverage to the balance sheet. How should we think about the capital allocation priorities here going forward?

Yes. I'll take that. So yes, we've done a few tuck-ins over the past couple of years. Now we did the big Wandera acquisition. When we think about how we're going to invest and deploy our capital, it's really investing back in the business. And for those of you who may have heard our last couple of earnings calls, when we've given guidance and when we report, if we're exceeding on the top line and benefiting on the bottom line, we're going to try our hardest to reinvest the upside back into the business, primarily in our go-to-market and our technology developments, keeping pace with the pace of Apple's technology development. We -- it's not to say we won't continue to look at acquisitions in the future. We'll continue to look for things that fit with our strategic road map and also help with our geographic footprint and expansion. And then similar to Wandera, what was most important there is the opportunity for cross-sell. We have 100% opportunity for cross-sell. There's no overlap in our products. So we'll continue to look for features like that. But really, at this point, we just chewed off a big acquisition to absorb and integrate. And besides that, it's really investing in the business.

So do you think that you would pay down the debt before you would make another material acquisition? I'm assuming, is that kind of the thought process there?

Yes. Yes, that's a good point. Absolutely. And actually, we feel so -- we feel very confident in our cash flow. We've been very cash flow positive. And we're -- right now, if you look at our results, the cash we posted at the end of Q1 is our low point in the year for seasonality reasons. So we've got plenty of cash flow that we're planning to start. We'll pay that down pretty rapidly and would not look to take on more debt before we take care of some of that.

Awesome. Yes, that makes sense. So you've done a really good job of highlighting the Connect product's revenue kind of shifting to SaaS and ratable revenue recognition here in the second half of the year and that's impacting the overall growth rate this year by 3 points. So maybe you could give some more color on the impact, including the fairly rapid growth of this product, which I'm not sure investors entirely understand how much it's grown year-over-year. And then maybe what's driving adoption of Connect?

Yes, why don't I just jump in here, quick, and I'll talk about the adoption side a bit, and then I'll kick it over to Jill to talk about the growth and just to make sure we have clarity around the revenue adoption side. So as you know, I mean, cloud identity solutions are just blistering in the market right now, like companies are going out and implementing cloud identities very rapidly. Well, integrating Jamf into those cloud identities using Jamf Connect. Jamf Connect is really that connection, if you will, between Jamf and the call it identities. It provides a more secure environment that is easier to manage and has a vastly improved user experience. So just as you asked what's driving the growth, I would ask any of you to speak to your IT leaders and say, first, if you could deploy machines that right out of the shrink wrap box, never been touched by human hands, power up straight to an Okta screen or power up straight to a Microsoft Azure screen, where you enter in your cloud credentials, and we just, on the spot, custom build that machine for that user, pretty efficient way of deploying devices. Then as you're using the device, the #1 reason why people call the help desk is they forgot their password. The best way to capture somebody's real identity is usually the biometrics on the device, the face or the finger. And to not only use the face or the finger to automatically log on to the device but also the cloud identity is the most secure and easiest thing to use. And then of course, we do something that nobody else does. Cloud identity providers govern access to cloud resources. We use those same cloud identities to govern access on the device itself to administrative capabilities. And of course, we're even going further with it. Jill will be talking about some new release we have coming out. But in the future -- we're in beta right now with a release, where if you want to have 2-factor, the way you get 2-factor is you look at your phone and it unlocks your Mac. So it's the easiest 2-factor you can imagine. And then Wandera, with their private access, is going to bring some awesome cloud integration capabilities to ensure not just that authentication time, but every single time a resource is accessed, then it is a safe access. And that's something we refer to as Zero Trust Network Access. So then, Jill, do you want to just mention on the revenue question?

Yes. Just to make sure everybody is clear, so it's a little bit of an unusual event that's happening. Dean mentioned some of the product enhancements that are going to be launched. And when those happen here in the third quarter, it's going to change our revenue recognition treatment. Today, Connect is deployed like it's an app that sits on the device. So rev rec requires us to recognize that revenue all upfront at the time that the solution is deployed. Post the product enhancements, we'll be deploying the product via the cloud, which now requires us -- or allows us to actually recognize that revenue ratable, just like the 92% of the rest of our revenue that's recurring, so it really winds up nice there. The impact in this year, though, is that we're estimating $9 million of revenue that would have been recognized upfront is now going to be ratable. And that basically is going to put on the balance sheet and defer it into the next year. That $9 million is going to have a 3 percentage point impact, however, on our year-over-year revenue growth rate. So I just want to make sure everybody has that, so as we model going forward.

Yes, yes. I think that's super helpful for everybody. All right. Another financial question here that's topically relevant. How should we think about the benefit to operating expenses with no travel or events in the last year? And then how is this going to shift over the next 6 months? And is that -- how do you think about that being reflected in the midpoint of your non-GAAP operating income guidance?

So we benefited really in 2 ways from COVID as far as the impact on our operating expenses on travel, right? We were -- historically have some services that we deliver, face-to-face services that we deliver that COVID really accelerated what we've been trying to do, which is to develop capabilities to deliver those services in a remote fashion. And look at a split, we were able to do that, something that we've been trying to work on for years. So we really appreciate that. And that's not going to go away. We're not going to revert back. So we're going to have ongoing benefit there. So that benefited our gross margin probably by 1 percentage point, where it's really kind of accelerated getting us to our long-term goal range of 82% to 83%. On the operating expense line. Same thing. We weren't traveling between our offices. We weren't traveling to customer sites. We don't envision going back to the old frequency of travel, especially when it comes to traveling between our offices. We've invested a lot of technology inside our offices, inside our home offices as well to allow us -- we've actually proven that we're a very efficient remote workforce. And so we don't see a reason to go back. We'll travel again. We've layered a little bit of that into the second half of the year, but really nothing near the level that it would have been prior to COVID. Now will that help our bottom line in the long term. What we've done is, we've said, we're going to take those dollars and find more value-added ways to invest in the company. We're going to take those same dollars and invest them in different ways. Possibly adding to our go-to-market engine quicker, our technology development. So really -- not really just banging on all of that as a benefit, but really finding more effective ways to deploy it.

Awesome. Yes, that makes sense reinvesting some of that upside. I think this is interesting too. Your net retention is remarkably stable. I think it's been 117% now for 4, 5, 6 quarters in a row.

Yes.

How should we think about underlying gross retention across the different segments, especially with the impact from COVID? And then what are the swing factors, maybe longer-term. Should we expect this to kind of trend down slightly as customers mature? Or given the upside from all of the products that you have now to sell them, maybe that's an upside lever on it?

Yes. So when we think about the blend of our net retention, you're right, we've been very consistent, above 115% for as far back as we've measured it and swinging between 117% over the last several quarters. There's a slight difference in the retention rate when I think of our 2 segments, commercial versus education. Commercial is much stickier. And so the retention rate is a little bit higher. It's also -- because of the price point of the of the Mac in the enterprise and the commercial pricing, it does tend to grow faster as well because of the pricing mix. Through COVID, because SMB is a large portion of our business segment, if we saw a little bit of softness there, like we talked about earlier, it was offset by a little bit of improvement on the education net retention rates. Going forward, we see nothing but upside here, and it really hinges on -- well, let me back up. To date, most of our -- call it, 98% of our growth -- net retention comes from device expansion. Going forward, while that will continue, what we're going to be able to sprinkle on top of that, of course, is adding on the additional products. And so we will expect to see the net retention tick up from there.

Awesome. Just a reminder, if anybody has any questions in the next couple of minutes, here happy to throw them out. Please enter into Q&A box. I got a couple more. Switching back maybe to some product strategy questions. If you look at the TAM for Mac management in both commercial and education markets, how would you define the relative level of penetration? I think we know it's low, but maybe some more details there might be helpful. And then is there -- I think this is an interesting question to you. Is there always a segment of the Mac installed base that has a business use but ultimately might not be managed? Or is it simply a matter of you getting more sales resources out into the field?

Dean, do you want to take that?

Is Dean -- yes, you might unmute.

Thank you, I'm back, I'm back. How many times have we said unmute. Okay. So let's talk about how we calculate that TAM. We commissioned Frost & Sullivan to do a study on all the active Apple devices out there. And then what of those devices are enterprise employed. They might be owned by the enterprise or the individual, but they're being used to access enterprise resources and value would be delivered to them if they were running something like Jamf. So then we took our products and our ASP, and we multiplied it times the device, and we said, that is the total TAM opportunity. That's where $12 billion is calculated, growing to $18 billion with Wandera. Now since Jamf's ARR at the end of Q1 is $308 million, pretty simple math tells you that, that's only about 3% of the market opportunity. But of course, it's higher, as you heard about my strategy earlier on subsegment. So within the Mac enterprise space, it's actually Mac management, it would be about 13%. We believe that's the #1 share position. We don't believe anybody is higher than that, which answers the next part of your question. We think most of that is actually greenfield. They're still not running anything. And more and more organizations are moving to adopt it. So we have to reach them. So really, what we're seeing is we don't think anyone has a higher market share on the Mac, which means that the market is greenfield, and it's still growing. The combination of them, even after all these years of serving the Mac, we are still hiring salespeople to try and reach that entire market because it's just -- it's that significant scale.

Awesome. All right. Well, with that, I think we're just about out of time here. I want to thank Dean and Jill for attending the Needham Tech and Media Conference this year, and look forward to seeing you guys soon. Thank you.

Thanks, Josh.

Thanks a lot, Josh.

Thank you.