Jamf Holding Corp. (JAMF) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Good afternoon, and welcome to the Needham Growth Conference. My name is Joshua Reilly, and I'm an analyst on the enterprise software team here. So we now have Jamf afternoon. We have CEO, Dean Hager; CFO, Jill Putman, and COO and now as of this morning, newly promoted President John Strosahl. So we are actually going to start with some go-to-market questions for John, as you as some other obligations here shortly and needs to drop off. So starting out here on the go-to-market front. What are some priority areas for investment year in 2022 for sales? Are there any particular international markets for Apple is going to be making a push that you can piggyback in terms of growth as you you've done in the past?

Well, sure. Thanks, Josh. Initially, we've typically come from a device management company. Now we've expanded into Apple Enterprise Management, and we offer a lot more solutions than just device management. And that's -- the good part about that is we've deepened our addressable market just with even in -- within our current customer base, and then obviously, for new logos. And with the addition of the Wandera product line and the security space and what that opens up and also the technology that Apple has provided with private relay and in conjunction with our private access really in to the BYOD, and I'm sure Dean will talk about that market opportunity. But having our sales motion be -- continue to be. It has been last year. We've had some success in that, and we'll continue to press the solution selling perspective around that, going in asking your customers where their pain points are, and we have a much broader tool belt now to to provide those services and solutions to our customers as we expand out beyond device management into Apple Enterprise Management. And the other thing from the international market is the second part of your question. I can think of 3 markets, in particular, that come to mind. Last year, we had great success, and we've announced this both in the Giga project in Japan in education and also in the DiGA pack and education in Germany, where those governments provided funding to their educational system, much like we did with the CARES Act to get a one-to-one device, and we worked very closely with Apple and really put us deeper into the education market in both of those areas where we had some green shots, but it really established us there. Now with the addition of our security profile and footprint. We really have a much broader installed base. It's just on the education side that we've just created to go there and market additional services and products to those customers. In addition to new products and new logos, but certainly, we've got a very attractive established market base there in those two markets. And the third one really would be India. We worked closely with Apple in all markets, and they've had some great forward progress in India along with us, and we've worked with them on that. So we really are investing there as well, and we'll continue to see good things from that.

Got it. Super helpful. So the international [indiscernible] market has always run through partners. A bit more than the domestic market. Does this grow even more with the Wandera acquisition? And then how are these carrier relationships that you inherited [indiscernible] Wandera in Europe progressing in terms of cross-selling the full platform? Or is that too early to be know at that point?

It's certainly not too early late was one of the premises that we use, the thesis that we used to invest in the company. because of those carrier relationships. I think from the first part of your question with respect to the channel. We have used to leverage the third-party channel outside the U.S. more so than inside the U.S., that's pretty natural because you have local language, local currency, local relationships in different regions all across the world. And we've continued to leverage those as we've had for Jamf, we're also building our direct sales channel as as well. So we've invested more heavily outside the U.S. than per capita than we have inside the U.S., and that has paid dividends because we've grown faster outside the U.S. than we have in the U.S. And that's particularly, to diversify our revenue source, really to stabilize the business and derisk our market that kind of gets hit for whatever reason. And so that's certainly been of a benefit. As far as the carrier market, one of the attractive pieces about Wandera was they did have those established carrier relationships. And for us to be able to move the Wandera products through our existing channel that they didn't have and for us to leverage their carrier relationships that we didn't have as deeply. I really think is a 1 plus 1 equals 3.

You guys have done a really remarkable job of kind of scaling your sales force productivity as you kind of ramped over time, your ARR is like remarkably consistent, right? Now as you kind of take this next step to the next level of over $500 million plus in revenue, how do you maintain that sales force productivity as you continue to have to branch out in terms of hiring?

Yes, we'll maintain it, but then make it better, right? We're letting self improvement. It's one of our values here at Jamf. We will continue to grow our QBR base and the supporting staff around that, and that's coincided with our increase in top line bookings as well, but really is to focus and get more leverage out of that, more productivity out the same or lesser effort. And we can do that through leveraging our third-party channels. We've increased the amount of business through our third-party channels on a global basis at a good clip last year and we'll continue to do that next year. We've did some reorganization of our executive team around that to help focus on that also to leverage our service providers, MSPs. Those are areas where we've had prior success, but just green shoots. I mean, we've got a lot of opportunity there to leverage the capacity of service providers, strategic alliances as well as our third-party channel. So we're excited about that, and we have some people in the company that have experience doing that and are really being focused on that in this out year.

Okay. Great. And then maybe just one last kind of quick question on the go-to-market. When you're looking at like acquiring a customer through direct sales versus through the channel, how do you think about the lifetime economics of those respective customers?

You mean with respect to selling back into them or renewing them or...

What's like the ongoing obligation to the partner in terms of commissions versus what you have to pay your direct sales force? Or how do you think about that over time?

We work really hard. We just brought in an executive that has run channel organizations for almost 30 years in a variety of different companies to help us what we call internal channel conflict where your direct sales team and your channel, we've really worked hard on establishing processes that don't have that happen. And we will and have done in the past and we'll continue to have our direct sales team work in conjunction with our channels so that they're not competing at each other. And you might pay more margin. That's nothing that we haven't done before. We've done this all the time. But to the extent you stop that completely. Then you -- then there's -- it's natural, and every company I've worked at, my carers had the channel [indiscernible] and we've really worked around navigating around that. So we need to continue to leverage the third-party channels, grow our direct sales team and keep them out of each other's way.

Awesome. That makes sense. All right. Well, thank you so much for that, John. And once again, congrats on the board from the President this morning.

Thank you very much. I'm going to kick off the revenue team now for the year.

All right. We'll see you later.

Thank you again. Bye-bye.

All right. So switching gears a bit here. You guys released a press release this morning that Jamf has 60,000-plus customers now and 26.5 million devices under management, which if you crunch the numbers, that shows that the recent growth trends have been really strong again here in Q4 and kind of remain consistent with what you guys have done all year, love to hear your comments on that? And then in conjunction with that, I think investors are curious now that some time has passed since the Apple announcement, what are you seeing from customer trends in the under 500 employee markets since the announcement? Has there been any change to the sales cycles? Or what are you hearing from them in terms of what they want?

Sure. Well, I'll grab that. And clearly, the purpose of John's promotion is to be able to not have to answer questions for the first 10 minutes of the fireside chats. I appreciate him carrying that wait. You saw India's commentary, the ability to be able to expand its sales force and train them on the expanding product line that we have in order to maintain productivity has simply been remarkable. To the tutors. Yes, we announced just this morning that we finished the year with over 60,000 active customers. And just to put that into perspective for everybody, that is a growth of 13,000 active customers this year. And I say it that way as opposed to say one 13,000 customers because we're netting it out. We're saying, after attrition and after winning customers, we had a net add of active customers of 13,000 running Jamf on 26.5 million devices, which is a net add of over 6 million devices, again after attrition. So the productivity and the expansion at which we're going out there put the customer coming into perspective even more. The year before, we added 11,000. So the thought of after 20 years of operations of our 60,000 customers, 24,000 have come in the last 2 years, it's actually kind of jaw dropping. And the reason for that is we have won a strategy to super serve Apple customers who have traditionally been underserved in the market. And with a purpose that maintains why they wanted to buy Apple equipment in the first place. We say that our purpose is to simplify work. So yes, we secure an organization. Yes, we manage devices, yes, we automate workflows, but we do so in a manner that allows people to work wherever they are in a consumer simple fashion. And the popularity of that notion just continues to grow. And that's why you see the level of consistency that product truth in the solution that we are offering, coupled with John leading a team that is unbelievably efficient and effective as we grow. And as far as the population of under 500 employees, well, clearly, we win a lot of customers in that space, but the device count isn't that large. So it isn't like that's a huge economical driver for us. But in terms of what we've seen since the Apple announcements, basically nothing. First of all, the Apple product isn't available yet. It doesn't become available in [indiscernible]. We're estimating it's probably going to be in the April time frame. And so for the most part, to your typical customer, it's just been -- it's information that is dealt there, but it's not anything that anybody is particularly acting on. In addition, Apple was very transparent that their attempt is to not try to move anybody who's already on our management system over to Apple Business Essentials. They attempted to offer a solution only for organizations who have decided that they're not going to use any kind of a management system. In other words, Apple wants every device that is out there to be under some form of management that's for an organization. And there was a small sliver on the very low end of the market that isn't using management today that they're attempting to reach. They're not trying to become a leader in managed deployment of devices for organizations. They're just trying to address a very small segment of the market that is not using anything today. And that really is completely nondisruptive for us.

Got it. Yes, that makes sense. So just a couple of questions on Apple, and then we'll get to some of the other fun stuff. But I know people still have some appetite here for them. So if you look at the Apple Business Essentials product, obviously, everybody knows the team at the SMB market under 500 employees and lacks a lot of the product depth that an enterprise customer would expect. But I think from my perspective, the biggest clearing hole is support for apps outside the App Store. And we know why that they're not providing that. I mean, that's fairly obvious. But it seems like it's essential for a business of being size to me. I'm curious to customers of all sizes within Jamf utilize this kind of functionality? And then what ultimately does Apple do to kind of work around this in the future?

Well, the short answer on the last part of your question is I don't think they do anything to work around it in the future be. It isn't something that they want to do. Again, Apple is not attempting to be a competitive. And by the way, these aren't my words, Apple themselves came out after the announcement and specifically said publicly, they're not attempting to be competitive with the other management providers that are out there. They are addressing a small space of organizations who are not using anything. You're right, most organizations, almost all organizations that run Mac for instance, use third-party non-appstore software. But our data says well over 80% of all the apps that are used out there on the Mac are outside of the App Store and Apple is not going to provide a complete holistic solution for that. And they don't have to be as they can entrust that Jamf does it very well. And again, Apple's own words is they're thrilled when somebody is choosing the Jamf solution. The thing that it's exciting about Apple Business Essentials. And I mean that exciting about Apple Business Essentials are the elements of the solution that Apple has never offered nor has anybody else. So for instance, small businesses have not been able to get a business solution that includes AppleCare that actually allows them to be supported where IT can call AppleCare on behalf of their employees. Apple has never had organizational iCloud storage. This has been a glaring hole in the Apple for business offer. And Apple needed to have a simple method of onboarding users. All of these things come to all of us through the announcement of Apple Business Essentials. And believe it or not, if we can leverage some of the technology in Apple Business Essentials, it will actually eliminate some of the competitive disadvantages that we've had against our real competitors. And by real competitors, I mean everybody, but Apple because Apple is not a competitor. We have real competitors out there and some of the technology that Apple is making available to us is going to make us more competitive. So we believe, just like with every other Apple for business announcement that has ever been done we will be able to use that technology to our advantage and become more competitive versus our real competitors.

Got it. Yes. That makes a ton of sense. So this is just a hypothetical, but if Apple were to really become serious about the MDM market, obviously, they could acquire Jamf and you built the platform on technology that's friendly to Apple given that [indiscernible]. But obviously, from my perspective, I feel like that would create an impartial third-party ecosystem around the MDM market and possibly affect their relationship with others like Microsoft who have been ramping their investments in their apps from the Apple ecosystem. Do you think that it's essential that they maintain this impartiality, especially at the enterprise level?

Yes. It's a very good question. And I should make it clear that even though like every other Apple technology, we believe that this ultimately will benefit us. We are never blind to the potential that Apple could do something to hurt us. We don't think that will happen. But we operate and have always operated with a sense of paranoia, and Josh, you will appreciate this, a sense of paranoia of a Vikings fan. After all, we are located here in Minnesota, and we just -- it's been tough for us. So we have -- this is our 20th year of operation. We have always partnered well with Apple, but we never rely on Apple. The go-to-market team that John has built, partners with Apple, but we would do terrific if Apple decided to stop partnering with us. From a tap perspective, we leverage open APIs that if Apple were to make any attempt to shut off that they would be shutting off, for instance, they're gaming developers, not something that they would ever do. We have always maintained a level of construction from absolutely requiring anything from Apple. And therefore, we partner from a healthy perspective, not a we need you perspective. Now one of the reasons why I don't believe that Apple will ever really aggressively try to compete with Jamf is because we are a money maker for Apple. There are sources of revenue, whether it be the fact that they use Jamf in their retail stores, the fact that every single customer that installs Jamf on average grows their Apple devices significantly or whether it be because we are the largest distributor of App Store apps within the Apple ecosystem. And all of that creates services revenue for Apple. We are very financially as is advantageous for Apple to be partnered with us. And they would lose some of that if they chose to compete with us. But to your point, Apple could not compete with us without also competing with Microsoft and VMware and all of the other major infrastructure providers within the market. And I don't think that, that's something that's within Apple's best interest, I think that they would see that type of competition as limiting their growth in the enterprise as opposed to expanding their growth in the enterprise. After all, you see the investment by Microsoft significantly improving the office apps for Apple devices. Microsoft is a very friendly co-exister with Apple today, and I don't think Apple would want to ruin that. So Apple's got a pretty good thing going right now partnering with all of us.

Yes, exactly. I think that that's how it eventually plays out. All right. Let's shift gears here a bit to the broader opportunity for Jamf. So your opportunity is still significantly underpenetrated. We've done some work and estimate that there's over 50 million commercial Mac's out there, and you're still managing something like low single-digit millions in terms of devices. However, and I've heard you bring this data point up a number of times, you also highlight that you're in 23 or 24 of the top Mac deployments in business. So how do you kind of like reconcile or square those kind of 2 data points on that data point with the large market opportunity that's still out there in the commercial market?

Yes. So obviously, for any organization that has a healthy number of Macs, they have had to do something to secure and deploy those. So that's why you'll find us in those types of environments. But there's still so many Macs out there that I'll say that there are a small number of Macs within an organization to the point that they haven't yet embraced anything really to manage and secure those devices. So believe it or not, there's still a fair amount of greenfield market available to us on the Mac front, but far more exciting than that. is that according to IDC numbers, Mac is the fastest-growing computer throughout 2020 and also through the first 3 quarters, we don't have the fourth quarter numbers yet of 2021. We see the changing demographics in the workforce, the younger demographics that grew up on Apple. The -- I mean, think about it. Apple really started to emerge again post 2002. We those individuals are now starting to enter the workforce. So there is a huge preference for Apple from the younger demographic that are entering the workforce. You will have the post-pandemic gears that has accelerated the consumerization of IT. And then you've got the fact that Apple is building the hottest or perhaps better said, the coolest computer on the market right now with the M1 chip for the Mac. All 3 of those things we believe are going to ignite Mac growth within businesses in the coming years, which is going to bode really well for the leader in that market who is Jamf. And a matter of fact, I'll -- I've been bold enough to say that I think at least in the U.S. within the workforce. Mac will actually overtake windows in market share, not in the immediate future, but I want to say a really good shot of it happening by the end of this decade. You get about 3 refresh cycles throughout the rest of the decade happening. And I think that the popularity of the Mac is going to start to rival, if not overtake the popularity of windows in the workplace.

Awesome. That I hope happens as well. So you've discussed it iPhone or iOS are the fastest-growing segments within commercial. But overall, your mix of managing iPhones has been -- is much lower than Macs in terms of market share. Curious, Wandera is going to help back here, given the security piece to cross-sell. But is there anything else that makes sense on the pricing or the product side to really go out and try to capture a lot more market share in the iOS market commercial?

Well, commercially speaking, the largest market just by measuring the number of devices is not edification, it's not a fact for commercial, just measuring the number of devices are the iOS devices in the commercial space. And we've been getting much more competitive in that space in coming years with solutions like Jamf reset and setup that allow really innovative workflows to solve tricky business problems. As a matter of fact, in our press release this morning, we said that in 2021, Jamf actually had the 3 largest contracts in our company history, which, as I mentioned, we're entering our 20th year. Most would be surprised to find doubt that our largest contract ever of those 3 was not for Mac commercial nor was it for education, it was an iOS deployment in a commercial market, specifically because of the very interesting and new launched and patented workflows that we allow to allow the state of the device to change based on its use, which allows us to solve problems that nobody else can solve. So yes, we have seen some tremendous success in the last couple of years. It is the fastest-growing segment of the business. The stronger we get on Mac, the stronger and the more sense it makes for organizations to also bring their iOS devices over to Jamf like SAP did a few years ago. So we believe that, that is a significant opportunity for us. And actually, you heard John mention earlier that the BYOD market is a significantly growing opportunity for us. And that represents a huge chunk of the Apple total addressable market. And to be perfectly honest, Josh, we haven't been all that interested in historically because serving the BYOD market has been a race to the bottom on price because, frankly, the solutions haven't been that good. But if you take the new capability that Apple is offered called user enrollment, a new capability called service discovery, both of which Jamf supports and none of our major competitors support, and you couple that with the new security products that we just received from Wandera and we can put together a BYOD offer that balances user productivity, user privacy and the security that the company requires and IT services that the company requires, we believe we're going to have something in the market that nobody else will be able to compare it to. And all of a sudden, Jamf is going to be interested in really serving and growing in that BYOD market for the first time.

Yes, the BYOD market has kind of always been a thesis in the space, but it hasn't really taken off for any of the vendors. I mean, if you really look at it. But yes, those -- that functionality should definitely help there.

People have wondered why it's pretty simple. It's been why Jamf is never focused on it. The capability of delivering the solution has never been there. That's not true anymore for the Apple BYOD market.

Yes. Awesome. All right. So moving on to the education business, growth slowed a bit in the 3Q and maybe saying that it slowed isn't the right way to determine its more normal seasonality, I think, would be a better way to put it, which is expected after the period of outperformance that you guys had here. Should investors kind of looking forward, though, should investors be concerned that the global education market pulled forward demand over the last 18 months, and there could be more of a pull off in 2022 than maybe people are currently expecting?

Yes, I wouldn't think of it that way. Without a doubt, there was a spike in 2020. But the way almost the mental picture I would draw is that the growth within education has been just really nice and steady and is going to continue to be steady. But in 2020, it had a weird spike because of a very unusual circumstance. But if we were to flatten out that spike, we're seeing -- what we're seeing this year would have been probably what we would have predicted 2 years ago. It's still along that really nice growth curve. It just had that spike in 2020. And one of the reasons why we're going to see the continuation of that is education is still on a global scale, relatively underpenetrated with technology. The U.S. is the market that everybody thinks about in the U.S. is out ahead of most geographies around the world. But what the pandemic showed us is that we have huge student in equity when it comes to access to technology. And so governments around the world are continuing to put money into funding technology rollouts to students, and that's something that's going to continue. In addition to that, there are add-on solutions that Jamf has never had before that we now have for the first time that even if devices aren't rolling out at the same level, we could go back in with add-on security solutions, and now thanks to the acquisition of Wandera an add-on filtering and student safety solution to create a whole new trajectory of growth for Jamf.

Got it. Okay. That makes sense. You highlighted the competitive set in what I thought was really helpful detail at the fall analyst event. The MDM market is always going to be competitive. But I'm curious, how do you guys think about this internally in terms of the balance of winning market share versus maintaining price while you have some of these kind of venture-backed startups who are making somewhat of an aggressive push on the price front? Does that maybe motivate you to land smaller with these customers to get in the door as the incumbent vendor and improve your work for the customer?

Yes. That's a very good question. So we definitely -- small incumbent vendors, and we all know how it works, can get propped up with investment money, which allows them to live in a cash burn kind of environment. And we all know that, that's a temporary existence in terms of how that's [indiscernible]. You can't burn it forever. We're very proud that we have not just since being public, but frankly, forever, right, Jill that we are cash flow positive. We live off of our operations and off of what we receive from our customers, not what we receive from investors. And you know what that does, it causes you to serve your customers really, really well. Now we have run into situations where customers or other competitors will attempt to win on price because frankly, that's how you do when against Jamf. And there are occasions that we are -- we'll look for potentials to put together products in such a way that the entire platform is more affordable. But we also will know that even if we lose in a situation because somebody determined that they could get a product for a lesser price because of the temporary nature that our competitors have in being able to offer at that price, we suspect that those customers will end up landing right back with Jamf within a year or 2. But for what it's worth, our win percentage across the board is actually better than it was before these competitors entered into the marketplace, we're just competing against a different competitor. We used to be competing with VMware for that business, and now we're competing with a company whose entire strategy is to mimic Jamf. Frankly, when we enter into that competitive atmosphere, to some extent we've already won. So we're either going to win the deal initially or we're going to win the deal a year from now when the prices go up and they decide that they should just go Jamf anyway.

Got it. Okay. All right. So moving on to products here. One of the areas -- there's been a lot of stuff overlooked in the last couple of months just in the sense of the chaos of the Apple new, right? So I think it's good to refocus on maybe some of the product and kind of nuts and bolts of the business. I was really excited when I launched coverage last year about the Jamf business plan because I really think that, that's the future in terms of the way you sell to the end customer. Now that it's been out for a year roughly in terms of new and existing customers, is the demand been what you expected? And how should we think about any potential tweaks that might be coming when you throw in the Wandera offering as well?

Jill, you want to grab that one?

Yes. I'll grab that one. Hey, everybody. So first of all, when we launched the business plan, it wasn't so much that our customers were looking for a per user pricing model. They were looking for a sales cycle that had less friction when they were going to start to bundle products together, something that could make it more of a one sales cycle internally for them versus multiple sales cycles on the different products. So we put together the bundle and end up being on a user-based pricing. What we're incredibly pleased with the uptake that we've seen in it. It's still today is not a material portion of our ARR, but we do expect that along with the demand for the Protect and Connect products, we do expect all of those to become larger portions of ARR over time. And then, of course, as we'll continue to look for other ways to bring products to market with less friction. We'll probably be bundling some of the Wandera products into some sort of a bundle in the future as well as we kind of work through some of that here over the next 12 months. So continuing to see strong momentum there. And to your -- I think your question was, is it delivering what we expected, 100% delivering what we expected, which is that it's got some good legs under it, and it's continuing to grow.

Awesome. I think back to the third-party app piece, I really think that, that is like a critical piece for customers. And at this fall here, you kind of announced the Jamf app catalog where you're kind of dramatically expanding the number of apps that you're kind of providing coverage for. Has that -- I'm just curious, has that won you any incremental business already? And what is like the feedback from customers?

The feedback has been huge. This is a really, really interesting product. There has been a long issue on the Mac that Apple has done a wonderful job with App Store apps for iOS, and of course, also for Mac. But as I mentioned, over 80% of the apps that are used in business are not App Store apps for the Mac. And so therefore, maintaining them and keeping them up to date on a large fleet of maps within our business is very problematic. And of course, if you don't keep them up to date, it is a support edit and it's a security vulnerability. So this is a top priority for organizations and the #1 thing that IT administrators spend their time on. What they want is essentially an App Store simple way of simply saying, "Hey, install this app on all the Macs and keep it up to date all the time". What we launched or what we announced at JNUC is a Jamf method of doing that for those third-party non-App Store apps. We are in beta today. However, it's going to become available later on this quarter, and then we will continue to cover titles over time. We anticipate that we will, this year, significantly surpass anybody else's offer in the market when it comes to volume of titles that are covered, the velocity at which we keep them up to date, which is same day and the validation of the quality, the security and the legal rights, which is a key part of it, to be able to host those updates for those titles. We don't think anybody is going to be close to matching what we announced at JNUC. And for anybody that was following the channels as we announced that, you saw an awful lot of drooling emojis when we announce. That's the kind of feedback that we've been getting.

All right. Well, switching gears here. We only have a couple of minutes left. So I wanted to throw out a couple of financial questions. But -- so we'll start with -- consensus is modeling roughly 25% ARR growth for 2022. Should we expect relatively balanced growth across the business segments and geographies kind of underlying these expectations? I think investors are naturally assuming that commercial is going to accelerate and there's going to be some moderation in education. But is that how you guys are thinking about it as well?

Yes. I'll take that one, Josh. So you've heard us say that we believe that we're not market limited. We really don't see anything that prevents us as you look into the coming year, anything that prevents us from growing at rates similar to our growth rates that we saw in 2021. So to that end, we do believe that the current consensus that's being modeled is conservative compared to what we're modeling and are expecting. And then when it comes to different, the markets, commercial versus education, similar to what we said on our last earnings call, continued strengthening in the commercial markets as we move through the next year. Education continuing to be strong, but we'll have less of an outperformance than it did kind of those 4 to 5 quarters as we moved through kind of the first 24 months of COVID, still strong. Commercial will be our stronger growth sector. It always has been. Just those growth rates are going to start to normalize a little bit more but still outperform where they had been prior to COVID.

Awesome. All right. And let's just follow up with one quick last question. You've historically had a nice mix of growth plus profits. Curious, does it make sense to invest even more of the free cash flow and sales and marketing to make it more difficult on some of your startup competitors in terms of customer acquisition? Or how are you thinking about discipline around these investments here?

I'll take that one, Dean, because you're on mute. We get asked that question often, Josh. Could we be investing faster in our go-to-market? And we've thought about that. We've asked ourselves that several times. And what we've got is you heard John speak to this actually. We've got what we've got several years of proven track record on the success of how we ramp our sales force and how we add heads. And we add them very methodically. It's not just field sales, it's not just QBRs, but there's a whole become pods. It's a whole pod of supporting cast that we build on the whole go-to-market engine as well as marketing and other factors to support that. And you also heard John talk about, and you even mentioned it, the consistency and the productivity that we get out of that sales force or as fast as we're growing and for as often as we're slicing and reallocating territories, in spite of that, we've been able to maintain strong productivity rates. And so we feel really comfortable in the rate that we're investing in that we know that for every dollar we put in, we have a pretty predictable model that says here's what we're going to get out of it. And to invest faster, we feel like we could potentially be putting the system at risk and start to kind of break down some of that awesome onboarding and training that those employees go through, which then leads to that longer-term stickiness of that sales [ rev ] and their higher productivity, right?

Awesome. Makes perfect sense. All right. Well, with that, I think we're out of time, and thanks the Jamf team for presenting today.

Thanks, Josh.

Thank you, Josh. And thanks for everybody for joining.