Jenoptik AG (JEN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the conference call regarding the financial results 2020. [Operator Instructions] Let me now turn the floor over to your host, Leslie Iltgen.

Good morning, everybody, and welcome to our conference call on the full year 2020 results. My name is Leslie Iltgen, Head of Investor Relations and Corporate Communications for Jenoptik. With us today are CEO, Dr. Stefan Traeger; and our CFO, Hans-Dieter Schumacher. Dr. Traeger will give a brief update on the business and point you to the key highlights of our full year results and the key developments in the divisions and, of course, an outlook on full year 2021. Mr. Schumacher will cover the key group financials in depth. As always, both will be happy to answer any questions you may have in our Q&A session at the end of this call. Also, let me remind you that this call will be recorded. A replay will be available on our Investor Relations website after this call. Before I hand over, please also kindly pay attention to our usual disclaimer that you will find in the presentation. It is now my pleasure to hand over to our CEO, Stefan Traeger. Please go ahead.

Thank you, Leslie, and very good morning from my end here, from our end at lovely [ Saint Helena ]. And since this is our first call, our first earnings call together, actually. Let me just give the opportunity and say, great to have you on board. Great to have you within an update.

Thanks a lot.

Pleasure. You're welcome. How to describe a year like no other, really, of course, COVID has dominated 2020 for us in many ways. Challenges, taught us a lot. We had to learn a lot. You know what, we decided that today, we're not going to talk about COVID. Well, at least we're going to talk about COVID and the pandemic as little as possible at least. Maybe we all are growing a bit tired of talking about it. We've decided that today, we will talk about our strength as a company. We'll talk about our innovation power and how we can make the world a better place with more light actually. So despite all the challenges that we have, that society to face today and in this world. I want to say that at Jenoptik, we strongly believe that it's a very strong company, and, we believe, a great investment into the future. Let's kick off with some highlights of 2020. And if you follow me to Page 4 of our presentation. We would like to remind all of us on what I believe is may be the biggest milestone in the company's recent history. Within 2020, we've managed to pull off the biggest acquisition of Jenoptik, say, in recent history, essentially in the last decades. With TRIOPTICS, we now have a new star within the Jenoptik family. We have entered the field of test and measurement of optics for mobile devices. And I mean we all look ever more into all sorts of cameras. We carry with us mobile phones and tablets and the demand for laptops grows ever bigger. We all use video conference to nth degree. And the quality of the optics in those mobile devices is essentially one of the key selling feature. I was saying earlier, last year, the quality of an image that we take with our mobile phones, a smart phone, is as good as a quality of an image that we used to take a few years back with professional cameras. Image quality, becomes one of the most important selling features of mobile devices and TRIOPTICS provides the gold standard when it comes to test and measure the quality of those optics during the production process. So optics has more to offer. There is a big future, we believe, in AR, VR, augmented and virtual reality. And all of that requires ever smaller optical sensors, ever smaller optical devices with ever higher quality. And again, quality to improved, needs to be tested, needs to be measured during production process and TRIOPTICS is the gold standard when it comes to machines for test and measurement of those optics for mobile devices. We believe that TRIOPTICS will positively contribute to the group earnings in years to come. It already did in 2020. And we do believe that we will see significant long-term top line synergies from the acquisition. And as I already alluded to and as, I guess, you all know by now TRIOPTICS is way above group average and fleet average when it comes to profitability in its business. So as I say, TRIOPTICS, to me, probably the biggest event and most important highlight of the last year. However, there have been plenty more. And then in the next few pages, we'll show you a bunch of other things that we've been particularly proud of in terms of achievements in 2020. So if you follow me to Page 5, I'd like to remind you that we communicated the successful winning of a very large order for production equipment for electric vehicles. As a result of our new strategy of combining our laser processing devices with automated and integrated production tools for, in this case, particularly the automotive industry. Essentially, that does mean that there is a new strategy in light and reduction. We're now able to report the successful entry of an optics into electro mobility and alternative engine vehicle production. And as I say, I think that's a very important milestone development of our company. On Page 6, we are proudly showing you another interesting image. There I'd say, Jenoptik explores new worlds. We are very, very proud of the fact that the first images that Perseverance has transmitted for Mars has been through our optics. The eyes of Perseverance are from Jenoptik. Jenoptik is in providing the camera lenses, and the eyes, essentially, of the Mars Rover. And yes, it might not be the most important financial contribution to the company's development. But I think it does show our innovation power. It does show what we're able to do. The conditions that Perseverance face up there on Mars are severe, obviously. The optics on perseverance are produced in really clean room standards and have to sustain harsh conditions, and our experience in the semiconductor manufacturing world help us a ton when it comes to developing and producing optics in such challenging environment as even the surface of Mars dare I'd say. I'm happy to say that -- to say it's not just a marketing gimmick for us. Yes, it's not necessarily the most important financial contribution to success of Jenoptik. The fact that every image and that all those images from Mars are seen through our optics, but it does, not only actually show and demonstrate our innovation power, it also helps us to really always continuing to be on the forefront and the cutting-edge of development. I mean, at the end of the day, I want to phrase that Perseverance is probably the most autonomous vehicle in the solar system or is definitely the most autonomous vehicle and a solar system. And to be challenged while participating in developments like that helps us as a company to stand on toes, to stay on our stay on our toes and to stay highly, highly innovative. So we are proud of the fact, as I say, that the first images from Perseverance have been brought to us through an Jenoptik's HazCams, in other words, through Jenoptik optics assemblies. Let's go to Page #7. We're not only looking backwards today, but we wanted to give you a -- just a glimpse, really of other things we're working on when it comes to innovation. We brought in a picture, an image of what depicts, basically, a photonic integrated circuit. Well, you know that we are very, very active and, I believe, quite successful when it comes to devices, machines for the production of electronic circuits. Chips as we use to call it, chips based on silicon. There's a lot of discussion these days on the shortage of chips and on the investment that go into chips. I mean, if you have followed the news from Intel yesterday, you know that a lot of investment is going into the chips. Maybe you have seen the latest communications also from Apple, about their new chip generations and what silicon chips are able to do these days. However, there's a bunch of people thinking about what's next. What's after silicon chips? What comes next? What comes -- what happens should Moore's law ever break down. There's a lot of investment going into research these days when it comes to the quantum world, quantum Communication, quantum computing and the like. In Germany, in Europe and in the entire world. As a matter of fact, there's a lot of funding going on currently in terms of Quantum research, in particular, on European platforms. And we participate. We want to shape that. We want to participate in that development. I can't tell you today how much revenue this is going to contribute to the earnings of Jenoptik in 5 or 10 years from now, nobody knows. But to me, it's very, very important that we are anticipating, driving those new technologies beyond of what we do today. So we're really proud of what we've achieved in 2020. When it comes to M&A activities, when it comes to how we shape the portfolio of Jenoptik, when it comes to continuation in our innovation. And yes, even when it comes to not just conquering Mars but also pushing into the quantum world. Nevertheless, let's talk about financials as well, because at the end of the day, what really matters is how much profit do we make with all of that. And if you follow me on Page #9, we put together a couple of key takeaways in terms of financials and economic success in optic in what has been admittedly difficult macroeconomic environments. There are some parts that drive the whole year that we have seen a quite mixed impact actually of the pandemic 2.0 portfolio, I will go more in-depth into the details of the presentation today. But I did say throughout the whole year, we see almost like a bifurcation, actually, in our marketplaces. Some of our businesses have had even tailwind. The pandemic acted almost like as a catalyst to the digitization of our world. Our businesses have been in choppy waters and have had challenging market conditions. If we take it all together, though integrated over the entire portfolio, and including the effect of the consolidation of TRIOPTICS in the fourth quarter. Revenue of the group has declined by minus 8.3% versus prior year. That's not nice. We put, throughout, a bunch to sit here, explaining growth in double-digit figures. But I would say that overall, and again, given the difficult macroeconomic environment, we're okay with that. We can manage. The adjusted EBITDA clearly exceeded our own forecast and what we could call prior year. We have adjusted our margins for quite a number of onetime effects. You do see further down in the next Bluepoint, actually, that we invested more than EUR 19 million in 2020 to make our business better, to improve our portfolio, improve our efficiency, our productivity and we wanted to make that transparent. We always said throughout the year that we will report, in 2020, both an adjusted and a reported EBITDA figure to be very transparent. Those particular effects which will have positive effect on to our profitability in 2021 already and definitely in 2022. Nevertheless, we're proud of the fact that despite the difficult economic environment, we managed to produce an adjusted EBITDA before PPA effects out of the -- resulting from the tropics acquisition of 17.6% of sales. We talked about our structural portfolio measures already. Nevertheless, and despite the fact that we've invested significantly into those efforts to make our business better, we still have a very, very solid financial and balance sheet structure. We have, just yesterday, placed an important milestone in the financing of our company. We will talk about that more throughout the presentation. But in summary, in Jenoptik is strong. We have a strong balance sheet. We have a strong liquidity position, we are well poised for further growth and investment into the future. We do propose to the AGM a dividend payment of EUR 0.25 per share, which is more than last year. But not quite at the pre-COVID levels. We believe that this is -- we hope, at least, that we supposedly find the right balance. In light of the ongoing economic uncertainties, the right balance between, on the one hand, our desire to invest into further growth. And on the other hand, to let our shareholders participate on the financial success of our company. For 2021, we do expect significant growth and further profit expansion, and we're very, very confident when it comes to this running fiscal year. Of course, we will talk about that at the end of the presentation. Of course, there are uncertainties out there. We have to mention that, but overall, and by and large, we are a strong company. And yes, Hans-Dieter mentioned earlier today, already, to me that -- and he was right actually, sometime throughout the last year, I said that I don't even have enough fantasy to think about negative profit numbers for Jenoptik. Maybe that was a play statement at the time. But in hindsight, I'll stand behind that. We are a profitable company all the way through the bottom of the P&L, all the way through earnings per share. And I think with that said, I'll hand over, Hans-Dieter, to you and -- to take us through the numbers in detail. Hans-Dieter?

Thank you so much, Stefan. Thank you, and a very warm welcome from my side here as well, from our beautiful town in Vienna. Hope you are all doing well. Well, let's go on, on the next page, it's Page #10 with the order intake and the order backlog figures. And you see here, all in all, we reached EUR 739.4 million order intake last year. It's slightly less figure in the year 2019, minus 6.7%. Obviously, if you have followed us the last year from quarter-to-quarter, obviously, we must have had a strong Q4, and that's true. With EUR 228.5 million, it clearly exceeds all the prior quarters in the year 2020. And it leads us to a more comfortable feeling that we can go with this development on a strong base in 2021. So a strong order intake, of course, including roughly around about EUR 27 million from TRIOPTICS acquisition, because we booked the main impacts in quarter 2 -- quarter 4 from last year. Stefan already mentioned that we had declining in some project postponement, order intake because of some project postponements and order cancellations due to the COVID-19 pandemic. But the good news behind, and you will see later on in our profitable figures and margins, all kind of margins from gross profit throughout -- even to the earnings per share, you see that we had a huge improvement there because of the product mix impact, because our semiconductor business and our safety business, Light & Safety and Light & Optics, and they are the heavy business, have been very strong, and that helped to reach the high profitable level Jenoptik reached last year. On the order backlog side, you see that we have just reached nearly the prior year with EUR 460.1 million. It's only EUR 4 million, a little bit -- EUR 4 million below last year with EUR 464.7 million. It's 1 percentage point. So it's nearly the same level. And it's including the order backlog of INTEROB and TRIOPTICS with EUR 47.5 million. We assume that we will convert at 78.5% of the EUR 460 million into revenue in '21. This gives us also a good feeling for the 2021 development. If you then follow me, please, on the next page, on Page #11, you see the revenue split quarterly. And here, you'll see also a plus 2.5% increase in revenue and sales in the Q4 stand-alone compared to the prior Q4 in '19. Obviously, it's including the positive contribution of TRIOPTICS in Q4. TRIOPTICS in Q4, it's mainly TRIOPTICS, because INTEROB was consolidated already since February, all in all, both have helped us with EUR 47.2 million within the EUR 767 million. But in Q4 figure, it's around about EUR 28 million coming from TRIOPTICS alone. And I mentioned already, we had a strong and good business with the semiconductor equipment industry and the public sector, which helped us in the profit line. The revenue decrease in light and production division, and it's not only driven by COVID-19, maybe, call it, '19 pandemic has accelerated a little bit. But the industry has gone through a structuring anyhow with the electrification. So COVID-19 also accelerated a little bit. But -- and then we have other businesses as well in the aviation business, as well as in the biophotonic areas. Nobody went to the doctors to have the eye treatment in the last year. These 3 areas has been influenced by the COVID-19 pandemic clearly. But we have overcompensated it with a strong, really, and in profitability, you will see it's nearly the same level in absolute figures like in the prior year, and it's driven by semiconductor and public sector business, which helps a lot. If you then go with me on the next slide, page, you'll see the revenue by market and revenue by region. Let me just highlight 2 markets. It's the automotive mechanical engineering business. You see that our share of total revenue decreased from 35% to 30%, which is already mentioned from us. And very important, with semiconductor equipment, which increased its share from 20% to 22%. This is very important for Jenoptik. And on the right side, I'd like to highlight our Asia Pacific figures, where we have seen a growth. You all remember that China, especially China has been the first economic place in the world to -- who recovered first from COVID-19 pandemic. And you see here a growth in our books. And in Europe, it's nearly flat. It's constant. No decrease, which is very helpful. Obviously, it's influenced by the semiconductor business, because all our Dutch customer is in this figure here. In Americas, let me say somewhat to the America development, which is clearly below prior year with EUR 195.5 million compared to EUR 238.3 million. It's driven by 2 impacts. One is the automotive business, which we have in Canada and Northern part of U.S. in Detroit area, which has obviously declined and our optics business in the southern part of U.S. has been influenced by COVID-19, where we have been -- we have a business there in the entertainment business, entertainment parks and cinemas. And obviously, COVID-19 pandemic did not allow people to go to entertainment parks or to cinemas anymore. This is why our business has been poor also there. So this will recover in the -- if we have or again, open spaces for the people worldwide after having gotten vaccines, yes. The revenue -- the foreign revenue is stable at 72% of total revenues. If we then go please to the earnings figures, to Page #13. Here you see then the comparable, the adjusted EBITDA figure, you see it here and it's EUR 130.7 million. It's adjusted by our structural and portfolio measures of EUR 19.1 million. If you take this out, and in the prior year, we have already booked EUR 4 million, so the net impact is EUR 15 million compared with, because we want to compare apples versus apples, so to speak. And you see a 17% EBITDA margin and nearly, we're saying, absolute EBITDA figure, like, in 2019 with much more sales. This is what I mentioned already. And if you take out of the EUR 130.7 million orders purchased spot allocation effect from the inventory step-up at Jenoptik and the EBITDA, it's EUR 4.6 million in the last year. And to answer your question in '21, you will see EUR 1.8 million for the whole year, and we have booked it in Q1 already. So it's done through, for the rest of the year, that's all from the inventory side and from EBITDA side impact. So if it's like this out, we would have also even reached 17.6%, which Stefan already mentioned. And this is a very strong development. And we see, the Q4 figure alone, with $56.8 million compared to $45.6 million. And it's clear that TRIOPTICS is this very high and profitable contribution before PPA contributed in the Q4 figures already. The not adjusted EBITDA, let me highlight this also. As reported, with EUR 111.6 million and equaling to 14.6%, this is also a very strong result we all reached together in a COVID-19 year. Well, not so bad. If you then look at EBIT figure, EBIT figure is EUR 78 million -- adjusted at EUR 78.8 million, which is equaling to 10.3% compared to prior year. Why is it a little bit more down compared to the EBITDA figure? This is because of the purchase price allocation impact, which we have booked here. All in all, it's EUR 14.9 million, because there you see the huge impact, which has been shown by TRIOPTICS below the EBITDA, yes. It's including the EUR 4.6 million in return, the step-up I had mentioned already. It's a much bigger figure from TRIOPTICS in total. It's EUR 8.3 million in the EBIT alone. So this is the reason why the EBIT figure is a little bit lower than the EBITDA figure. The nonadjusted EBIT that we highlighted, so to -- as reported, it's EUR 59.3 million, equaling to 7.7% margin, which our CEO made the statement that she cannot imagine to see those figures. It's really healthy to have shown, even in a quarter, a very good development, if you take into account what happened last year. And if you then go with me to the P&L figures on the next page, Page #14. You see what I already mentioned, the product mix impact, our gross margin even was a little bit higher for 34.2% compared to a 34.1%. In last year, I actually have explained it already. If you look at the functional costs, which are EUR 2 million, roughly EUR 2 million below prior year. You could ask the question, why is it only EUR 2 million? Because we have taken out a lot of traveling costs, because we did not travel as much as in the prior year. So we saved a lot of traveling costs. We saved already also personnel costs, roughly around about worldwide EUR 10 million come -- thereof roughly around about EUR 3 million coming from, first of all, in Germany. The rest has been mainly contributed in U.S. and Canada. Because in the businesses which have heavily been influenced, like the automotive business, like in production, we had to take this, as mentioned, as I've taken into account. But we did not see it here as the whole amount because we had counter effects with the acquisitions, TRIOPTICS and INTEROB. Obviously, we've got hundreds of colleagues, new, into the group. And therefore, the functional costs have been increased by the first consolidation impact of these acquisitions. But all in all, we have been happy to manage the costs in the year. Without taking too aggressive into the organization, because we have been working on some very interesting projects in R&D and sales, where we think it will pay off in '21. So all in all, we are quite happy with the development. The EBITDA and the EBIT, I have already talked about. The earnings before taxes has reached EUR 53.2 million, including, obviously, the portfolio measurements and the earnings after taxes with a tax rate of 19.7%, driven by the acquisition of TRIOPTICS and very good development outside of Germany. We have 19.7% tax rate realized. So finally, we ended up with an earnings per share of EUR 0.73 per share, which is a very good outcome from our point of view, and we are very happy that we managed to show this strong like figures to the last earnings figure. And if you then look with me shortly into the free cash flow statement on the Page #15, which we have shown here -- which we are showing here, you see that, obviously, because we had lower operating income, our cash flow from operating activities has been roughly EUR 20 million below prior year. On the investment side, we have not very much taken out of our investment. So we have invested EUR 40 million compared to EUR 44 million. So all in all, our free cash flow before interest and taxes has reached EUR 62.3 million. We are very proud. This was one of our main targets in the beginning of the pandemic to keep cash, to collect cash and to keep the cash in the company, to save the cash, and we have shown this result here, although we are quite happy. The adjusted figure is a little bit higher, EUR 67.2 million. Our equity ratio has come down to 51.5%, but it's still a very, very strong figure. What is the reason behind? Obviously, we have the full balance impact of the first consolidation of the huge TRIOPTICS Group which pulled up our balance sheet by EUR 400 million to EUR 1.4 billion, EUR 1.5 billion, but on the P&L side, we have only realized a quarter. So this is a little bit of mismatch between P&L and balance in the last year. This will improve in this year, obviously, but this is the reason why the equity ratio has come a little bit down, but it's still in a region where we are very, very happy with. And the working capital, which increased is also coming from TRIOPTICS. We have written it here. You can read it. And let me say now some words to yesterday, successfully placed EUR 400 million debenture fund. We are very proud that we -- with -- let me say a very important point. I'm sure our CEO will say some words to it later on for both of us. It's very important that we have done it with green components to support our sustainability efforts within our company. Also in finance department we have been overbooked by far. We -- our intention was to collect EUR 200 million. So we like to take the 2 -- EUR 400 million with us. We are very, very happy that the investors have shown this confidential behavior into our group and our company. And we have done it very short and very precise. So we are happy that we have now the means to support our strategic development of our company from an investment side. And this gives us freedom to operate, so to speak. We take half of it, roughly half of it to refinance in the first step, the financing from the acquisition of TRIOPTICS. We will take it out of the term loan financing, take in the debenture bonds. So this means, in other words, our term loan is again free to take some money, which we may need out of it. And other parts we will use for investments in M&A or in our business development at the side of the Jenoptik worldwide. Having said this, and I'm sure our CEO will take over and make some statements concerning our ESG criteria we took into account in this debenture bond, and I'm happy to give you -- to turn it over to Stefan, who will go with us through the development of our division in the last year. Stefan?

Thank you, Hans-Dieter. Yes, no, I don't -- no need to particularly dwell on the debenture bond. I think we're really, really, really proud of the fact that it obviously strike, quite significantly, actually. And yes, we intentionally linked it to ESG criteria. Criteria is about diversity in our business, we want to make an uptick a more diverse place. Criteria around economic, environmentally friendly or other ways of conducting our business. We'll talk about certain criteria about green energy about vitality indexes of the business and the like. For us, sustainability is not just a word. It's not just a buzz word. But everybody talks about sustainability. But for us, it really does mean that we believe sustainability shouldn't be just a marketing tool. Sustainability, it's something that's here to make our business better in the long run. So therefore, we use that component. In the debit bond, but not just there, but really in our entire sort of how we conduct business. Anyways, let's go to the individual divisions, actually, also to Light & Optics first. If you follow me on Page #17. We, basically, are very proud of the fact that Light & Optics continues to develop very, very strongly, certainly pushed and supported by an ongoing strong development in the semiconductor industry. I mean there's a lot of talk about the chip shortage in the automotive industry these days. Yes. I mean, let's face it. There are a lot of -- there is a lot of demand for chips in automotive, in cars and automobiles. But in reality, there are even bigger end markets for chips. And maybe that's an issue that the -- some of the friends at automotive industries didn't really sort of take into their considerations. Anyways, there's a lot of investment going on in new factories, if you've just followed, and I alluded to it earlier, the communication of Intel, yesterday. I think they talked about USD 20 billion over the next few years to be put into new factories. You see what friends at TSMC and Qualcomm are doing, it's really amazing. And obviously, I mean, we're not a -- we're not selling to those chip manufacturers directly. We sell to those folks who produce machines, which will be placed in these factories, for sure. And that, I'm pretty sure, generates demand, high demand and strong demand for our products for, dare I say, years to come. So really very positive here. You do see that in our figures as well. Order intake rose by 11.4% in 2020. Yes, in the first quarter, supported by the TRIOPTICS consolidation effects. But throughout the whole year, we have seen strong demand in particular, in the semiconductor industry. Revenue declined somewhat for Light & Optics. Hans-Dieter alluded to that already. It's predominantly due to the fact that our life science and health care business, i.e., our biophotonics business has been in choppy Waters. We talked about that throughout the whole year 2020. It is a bit counterintuitive. There was a big pandemic out there, and we were seeing health care and life science is and difficulties. And it is due to the fact that a large part of that business of ours is actually geared towards one could call aesthetic procedures. Like removal of tattoos, removal of hairs, LASIK eye correction and the like. And I used to phrase, nobody is going to the local tattoo parlor these days, let alone and trying to get rid of it to apparently. But that's not the structural problem. It really is just a COVID effect and once COVID is lifted, I fully expect this business come back. And as a matter of fact, we do see signs of that already in recent months. So overall, very happy with the development at Light & Optics. Also when it comes to EBITDA margins, there is. And again, consider this is -- already, there is a mix effect here. We have a very profitable business in semiconductor. And yes, if anything good, then COVID acted as a catalyst to the digitization of our world. So therefore, this high-margin business should continue to grow for the foreseeable the future, at least, and should help us in the profitability of Light & Optics. So very happy with that business. Let's Light & Production, Page #18. And obviously, Light & Production is in really, really challenging market condition or has been in 2020. You might recall that in Light & Production, we basically have 2 parts of the business. We produce production equipment for automated production environments. That's a combination of our laser processing business or lasers to cut and weld the steel and stuff, and on the other hand, robotic based automation solutions. And then the other part of the equation -- on the other side of the equation, we have a metrology business. The metrology business is geared towards combustion engines predominantly for historic reasons. And that part, the metrology part is really under pressure, continues to be under pressure. And that is actually a structural problem, which we addressed. And a big part of the onetime effects that you see between the adjusted and reported EBITDA margins is contributable to the fact that we do invest into making that business better, into making it more effective, more efficient and preparing it for the future. Nevertheless, in the other part, in the production tools and production equipment part, we have seen quite a lot of uptake, actually, in the later part of the year. There was a lot of money claimed to be spent by car manufacturers to enter the age of electromobility in 2019. And then not a lot of that actually became liquid in 2020. As a matter of fact, in 2020, sort of in the summertime, it was as if, yes, hell froze over. It was basically very little, if any, movement in the pipeline. We have seen, in the first quarter 2020, order intake in that business, even quite some big orders, which we then had to -- even cancellations in the second quarter of 2020. To some extent, that has been -- that lock has been lifted. We -- as I said earlier, we're proud of the fact that we could report orders for fairly large tender, actually, with electromobility in the mind. There are other, yes, projects like that on the horizon and in the making, not everything we do win, obviously, but we do see more activities when it comes to capital expenditure in the automotive industry. And I think the entire industry is saying same thing. So since Q4 and beginning of this year, there is certainly more as say, more demand for capital expenditure in the automotive industry. Nevertheless, it has to be said that order intake for our Light & Production business declined by almost 21% in 2020 and sales by almost 22%. Obviously, that did have an impact on the profitability of the business. EBITDA margin declined to 8.8% of sales but it's still a profitable business for us. Let's put that in perspective. We're not losing money here. Yes, Light & Production is in challenging market conditions and is in a transformation phase. But still, it is a profitable business. We are making money in this business. With that, let's go to Light & Safety, Page #19. And Light & Safety is always a bit of a challenge, what to say? I mean, on the one hand, we're saying it's a good business. It's a strong business of ours. It's in very good market conditions. And that fact remains. We have stable capital spending patterns, in particular, in the public sectors and with our public sector customers. Communities continue to invest into safety on the roads and safety in public places, and obviously, that helps us. On the other hand, you do see order intake actually declining, which might be a bit of a surprise given that we, throughout the whole year, talked about this business being in good conditions. Well, fact of the matter remains that it is a very lumpy business. It's a project business in which you either wind tenders or lose tenders. It doesn't have big tenders every other -- every quarter. So there are ups and downs. There's a lot of lumpiness in that business. Overall, though, we really want to stress that the business is in very good shape. We have seen growth of revenue by about 5% in 2020. and we have seen margins to further expand, EBITDA margins of almost 20% in 2020, which is a very strong development, very strong cash flow in that business. So we are very happy and continue to be very happy with our light and safety developed in particular in 2020. Now last on the list, VINCORION on Page 20 of the presentation. Yes, VINCORION has been in challenging conditions, in particular in the second half. I think we alluded to that towards the entire year last year. It was foreseeable. In the first quarter, VINCORION had good market conditions and the crisis hit I was clear that there will be an impact, in particular, on the aviation part of VINCORION. But given the long-term nature of that business, we have said up until summer also that VINCORION is having good demand out there. But it was clear that it's going to change, particularly in the second half, and we do see that impact and that effect. I have personally just been on the steering committee call, for a project that we do together with Airbus, not an important project, but it's just -- I just wanted to point out that doing business with Airbus and Boeing and this customers, those partners is not necessarily fun these days. So in other words, the aviation part of VINCORION is in challenging market conditions. So that part of the business represents about 25% of VINCORION. And obviously, that does have an impact. You do see that order intake in 2020 for VINCORION declined by 18.4% versus prior year. And revenue as well declined by 7.9% versus prior year. It's still as well, a very profitable business for us. We are not losing money there. As a matter of fact, it's also a business that continues to provide stable cash flows with almost EUR 10 million free cash flow. Nevertheless, it is -- remains to be below fleet average when it comes to profitability and growth targets. That said, overall. And if you take it all together, I think that, as I said in the beginning, I mean, yes, we did see challenging conditions in 2020 in some markets. We did see good conditions in others. And if we integrate over the business together and over the portfolio, yes, we have seen revenues decline in high single-digit figures. We would love to sit here saying, hey, we grew 10%. But overall, we can manage. I think we're -- we have a strong business. We have shown that operationally, this is a healthy company. We have shown that we can produce profits all the way down to the bottom of the P&L. We have a strong balance sheet. We have a good liquidity position. So we're actually looking forward to what's going to come in 2021, also based on our innovation power. And -- but we do guide and expect for 2021. It's a further growth year. We do expect to grow the business, obviously, including the effect of the consolidation of TRIOPTICS in a low double-digit percentage range. We guide for EBITDA margin to be between 16% and 17%. I do realize this is a very broad corridor and I ask for your understanding here. At the end of the day, well, here in Germany, we don't even know what we're going to do next Thursday. I'd say. And just to illustrate that it's not easy at the moment to predict how markets develop. We have, as I say, some of the markets where we are pretty certain we will see continued and strong growth. We have other markets where we, quite frankly, have to see what the next months are going to bring. So we come with a fairly broad corridor. We want to specify that and narrow the corridor in the course of the year. Let me further mention that we compare to 16 -- 17% EBITDA with a 14.6% prior year figure, not versus 17.6%, just to sort of put that in perspective. And we believe that with that, we actually guide to have and to achieve an EBITDA margin for in uptake, which we originally intended to achieve in 2022 in our strategic cycle. So we are fairly certain that we will achieve our strategic targets for 2022 a year earlier, despite of the fact that we are just going through the biggest economic crisis in recent history. And I think that's something -- yes, let's say, to be proud of. Basis for the development, in particular, is good order intake that we have seen in the fourth quarter 2020, a well filled project pipeline and continued promising development in semiconductor business. That should give us tailwind throughout the whole year. When it comes to efficiency and profitability, we believe that we will see effects of the restructuring measures that we have taken already. It should impacted our business already in 2021, although not to the full impact. We do believe that the full impact of our profitability improvement should be visible in 2022. I mean finally, just close with a few words, sort of in the mid- to long-term outlook, if I may. We do believe that we are very well positioned to participate in the growth and actually drive and shape the growth of photonic markets. We believe that photonic solutions, solutions based on life will drive growth of marketplaces and equates to about 2x the global GDP growth. And we, say, are determined to not just participate in that market growth, but actually to drive it, to shape it. And just to mention a few factors behind that. We talked about digitization. We talked about the fact that, yes, the crisis acted -- the COVID crisis acted as a catalyst to the digitization of our world. There is an ongoing demand for our chips for really various applications. We do see, in particular, increasing usage of augmented and virtual reality. I said earlier today, I said that a little boy actually showed me a video of a music group in virtual reality, which is really mind blowing. There is lots to come when it comes to virtual and augmented reality. And we, with our traffic acquisition, will participate in that. I even talked about quantum world. Now as I said earlier, I'm not quite sure we see a lot of economic success on that in the next 1 to 2 or 3 years. But in the midterm, I am personally convinced that quantum computing, quantum communication, the whole quantum world will be an ever more important factor in our everyday life. When it comes to health and to ever more human beings getting access to increasing, yes, therapies, diagnostics, by imaging and the like. Obviously, we are well positioned there when it comes to genome sequencing, when it comes to digital pathology, when it comes to laser-based therapy. All of those end markets and applications are there to wrap for us, and we were determined to utilize that factor that we have there and the important demand that we see out there. We talked about our understanding of sustainability. And to me, smart manufacturing is a big factor here. We do have to find ways to yes, make the world a better place at the end of the day. We have to find ways to preserve the resources of this planet. And on the other hand, we have to find ways to continue to manufacture our products and the products of our customers. And with smarter ways of manufacturing, we contribute to that. And that's not just, as I say, something for like green activists is actually an economic factor. And with green photonics, we can participate on that. We can drive that. We can generate growth and margin expansion based on sustainable development. When it comes to mobility, there's no question that augmented reality, that automated driving, that, yes, intelligent use of our infrastructure has to be the future. With our products, our solutions, we participate in that. We drive that. And so if you take it all together, we're pretty sure that Jenoptik will not just participate in the market development, which is already very interesting. But based on our innovation power can drive and shape that future. And therefore, we believe that Jenoptik is actually a good investment into future development. With that said, let me stop here. Paul is here. I'm looking forward to receiving your questions. But I think, Leslie, you wanted to round it up or we're going straight into Q&A here?

Yes. Thanks, Stefan. I'm sure there are quite some questions, which is why I would like to ask the operator to open the line for the Q&A session. Go ahead, please.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from Craig Abbott.

Just 2 questions, please. The first one is just if maybe you could give us an update on your M&A strategy. Obviously, you raised the EUR 400 million bond yesterday, as you mentioned. And I'm talking both regarding your thoughts currently. I'm looking forward with VINCORION on the one hand, but also at least conceptually, what type of acquisition targets you might ideally be targeting? And the second question is just to get a feel for on the net cost savings you're expecting from the EUR 19 million restructuring measures you implemented, i.e., normally, you have to, of course, pay a bit more than the actual savings. So I mean, you're looking at a factor of 1.2, 1.5 and are any further restructuring measures expected in '21?

Yes, sure, absolutely. In terms of -- let me address it, the second part first, in terms of cost savings, just so that we -- yes. we're clearly -- not the entire EUR 19 million have been for restructuring. A bigger part of it, though, I think we talked about EUR 15 million for restructuring, I think, about EUR 10 million for like a reduction thereof and roughly. And the rest for other parts of the group, in particular, admin and other parts of the group. So that EUR 15 million of EUR 19 million for restructuring. And my sort of rule of thumb is that you see typically, yes, you mentioned the fact that there already. And you see typically, half of the impact in the first year and the full impact in the second year, that would be my sort of rule of thumb here, yes, 1.5 here, and half of it sort of coming in this year. In terms of M&A strategies, well, when it comes to acquisitions, we continue to look for possibility to strengthen our portfolio, in particular, the optics and photonics world, something like TRIOPTICS is always a good thing. I think there is a big future and image analysis, in other technologies around taking an image, analyzing an image and then further on gaining intelligence from that image. All things around optics, photonics, image analysis, as you envision that type of stuff, we're interested in. We're also interested in expanding our portfolio in light and safety, where it makes sense. Those are the main sort of technological and application wise, the major and main fields. From a regional perspective, we are interested in expanding our light and production business, in particular, in Asia, but I don't think that will be a big thing. I think for light and production, we're seeing more maybe technology and bolder acquisitions, I think Latin production has to date just the acquisitions that they've done lately. So yes, in summary, I'd say, continuation of the strategy that we have followed throughout the last 2, 3 years, really, focusing on optics, focusing on photonics. Essentially more focused. That's what we're talking about.

And VINCORION?

Oh, VINCORION. Sorry. Yes, good point. I apologize. VINCORION, no, I didn't try to dodge the question. It's actually on my paper notes here, but I would -- I wrote it down. On VINCORION, look, I mean, we basically said throughout the whole year, we have stopped the active structural selling process for at the time. We didn't think that the offer that -- we didn't have an offer at hand, which reflected the value that we believe the business believes the business has. Of course, that was pre-COVID and before the aviation crisis. Yes, hindsight is 2020 vision, as we say. So yes, you never know. We did say at the time that despite the fact that we stopped the active and structured process, should somebody call, we'll certainly pick up the telephone. And throughout the year, I did say a number of times, I had a number of telephone conversations. But nothing really sort of concrete and tangible. Nothing in -- to a point where we would say that we have to reclassify VINCORION in our IFRS balance sheet as an asset for sale. For that, we would have to have probability more likely than not for a deal to happen. And we are not at that point at the moment.

Okay. But you remain theoretically open to it? And in my head, if you were to address that at a later stage, would you maybe have to think about splitting out some of the civil aviation activities?

The first part of the question, yes. The second part of the question, that's one I actually do dodge. Yes, yes. full stop.

And the next question comes from Richard Schramm.

Two questions, if I may. Just one, following up on VINCORION topic. More or less, all companies in the aerospace sector have made quite significant capacity cuts. What about your efforts in this respect? How much have you scaled back the capacities in around aviation-related activities of VINCORION? Or if not, if this is still work you have to do to take care of -- you obviously clearly dampened longer-term outlook in this sector here. And should this relate also in to some extra costs maybe in the future here? But -- the one topic. Could please elaborate a bit on the second point, the [ metrology ] business. We have heard, especially over the recent months, that more and more OEMs declared their exit of the combustion engine. The time frame becomes shorter and shorter in this respect. And if I'm wrong, a lot of your business here is tied to the combustion engine. So will obviously lose its markets in foreseeable future. How are you going to cope with this? And if there are not time for a more massive restructuring here or maybe even an exit of this business as it obviously has no your future at the moment here?

Yes. Thank you for the 2 questions, Richard. When it comes to VINCORION in terms of capacity cuts, it's not that much production capacity actually. I mean, the production of aviation and the other parts of the business are almost like knitted together and intertwined. But we have a fairly large program going and changing the setup of the business away from business unit structures from a vertical set up to a more sort of functional structure. Horizontal stretch is set up, we are going to rightsize VINCORION . We're in the process of doing that. We actually spent money and efforts on that, which is not driven by or not started by the aviation prices. I mean, as a matter of fact, we thought about that before COVID already. But certainly accelerated by it. I think, that's the best way of putting it, accelerated and maybe cut a bit deeper than what we originally expected because of the aviation prices. You are right. We do not expect the aviation business to come back massively and quickly. I think that will take way longer. When it comes to metrology, here, we are actually taking significant steps. The reduction of workforce, reduction of capacity in metrology is fairly significant. In all parts of our metrology organization in and outside of Germany. That is fairly -- I mean we're not talking -- well, it is -- let me just say, it is a fairly significant restructuring effort. I think though, even more importantly is actually your question for the long-term future of that business. And I -- we believe that it's our duty to have a vision there, to have at least ideas of what we can do with that business. And we have to see. But the way we see it is, I mean, the original strength of what used to be the [indiscernible] in filling and spending it, right? The original strength of this business has been to test, to measure the quality of surfaces of machine parts. The problem that this business faces is that part -- or machine in Asia these days, and not necessarily in the southwest of Germany anymore. And we have to find a way to get more access for this business to the Asian customer base. And that, to me, is the big reason. I mean, you're absolutely right, combustion engines produced in the southwest of Germany is not necessarily the future for that business. That's for sure. So we need to find a way to get more exposure to Asia. We're talking about actually transferring part of the production from metrology to our production sites in China, significant parts. We have to do that because if we don't produce in China, there's very little transfer. We actually can get our hands on those customers there and successfully tap into the customer base that we unfortunately do not have in our camp these days in Asia. So that, for us, is the future. I think to say that -- yes, let me just stop here. I think that's important. We do have a vision for that business. It's a business that's part of our portfolio for now. We do take significant restructuring steps all the way to even moving production to Asia. And I think that's what we can communicate at this point.

And just for clarification, in this shift in your production setup towards Asia or will this part then in next year's additional investment, of course, quite obviously, setting up new production facility and all related work, such a step here. And will this then afford another reduction in the European headcount? Or is this already done with the measures you implemented last year?

We have accrued the costs that we foresee for the reduction in the workforce in Europe in full -- in 2020. We started the discussion with unions and workers' council already in December 2020. So we have accrued all the money that we need for the reduction of the workforce in Europe. There might be additional expenses that we need to set up. The facility in China, we do have a production facility in Pudong in Shanghai. We might need additional investment into machines and parts, but that should come out of the ongoing business. So no further adjustments to the EBITDA.

And the next question comes from Malte Schaumann.

First question is on order intake in the fourth quarter, actually split in 2. First on semiconductors, even despite the consolidation effect of TRIOPTICS, Q4 orders have been pretty strong. Is it all about semiconductors? And then both in TRIOPTICS -- at TRIOPTICS and in your optics business? Or is there anything else? And then order intake in the light and production business appear to be a bit on the weak side. And Q3 was pretty strong with EUR 56 million. And in early November, my impression was that you were not too negative about the order development so far in the quarter. 36% in the fourth quarter is quite a bit below the Q3 level. So that in the end, did you lose some contracts with a postponement of order placements that may look Q4 then -- a bit weaker than maybe initially expected?

Malte, there were -- let me start with the light and production. There were a bunch of tenders going we participated in, in the fourth quarter. And you're right. In November, we were more hopeful that we can land some of those in the fourth quarter on the December time frame. Unfortunately, that didn't happen really. Let me be -- in all transparency here, well, full transparency, one tender we didn't win, basically lots of competition. And some stuff had been postponed. We do see some of those postponements coming in Q1. But I will just -- just as a warning to manage expectations. Remember that in March -- let me just put it that way. L&P has a very strong order intake in the beginning of the first quarter of this year now with January and February, but -- and again, manage expectations. In March 2020, we did take a large order into the book, which we then had to take out again and cut out and take out of the orders booked in the second quarter. So the comparison in March will be very, very challenging, just sort of to manage expectations for the first quarter and later production. As I say, from a market perspective, at least the first 8 weeks of the first quarter has been good. Light and optics, it's been across the board, really, I'd say, in the fourth quarter. I don't remember a particular effect. I would say that we did see good -- even in the biophotonics world was sort of a bit back to normal. Actually, we have a funny effect actually here. We have one of our LASIK factories, laser [ diet ] factories in Berlin. Which is now having very long lead times again. There's a bit of an up and down in the rollercoaster. And they see even actually a very strong demand. So no, it's across the board, I would say. Yes. I expect there was tailwind from the TRIOPTICS sector. And other than that, across the board in the fourth quarter. And continued strong development in the first 8 weeks of the new quarter.

Okay. Sounds good. Then a second question on TRIOPTICS. If my math is right, then TRIOPTICS should have reached something like in the mid-70s of sales in 2020, which does not really imply growth in comparison to '18 and '19, although it was considered to be a high-growth business. I know you can elaborate on that. Was there kind of a postponement of projects? Probably some COVID impact? So I take the numbers of the consolidation -- consolidated revenue, EUR 815 million you would have reached, including -- assuming the TRIOPTICS would have been consolidated at the first of January, and that's the comparable number I take here.

Yes, your calculation is correct. And look, I mean, obviously, going through an acquisition is a challenge for every company. And I would say the fact that we -- TRIOPTICS on a full year basis, hasn't seen any decline in order intake in sales. I think it's helpful. It's promising. Obviously, as I say, to go through a fairly lengthy M&A process is the focusing the management and it's focusing the business somewhat. Not to see. I mean, we have some very -- from our perspective, as we described, we had struck a deal in which we do have a significant earn-out and bonus and [indiscernible] compensation rules in the first and the second year. So we made sure that there is, on the one hand, a strong incentive of the management to continue to push hard for further growth in 2021. And on the other hand, should that not transpire for whatever reason, to be on the safe side and to have lots of safety nets when it comes to the impact on the Jenoptik Group. So we have to see. I mean, at the moment, we do believe that traffic is a strong growth business. And they have a very strong order backlog is right. And -- just pointed to the order intake and the order backlog, which is very strong. They have good order intake in Q4. But I just wanted to remind all of us that we do have -- yes, let's call it, safety net. So precautions. We have struck the deal that has a significant earn-out component or multiple significant earn-out components in the contract.

Okay. But the expectation is that growth returns in the current year?

Yes. That's the expectation. Yes.

And the next question there is Peter Rothenaicher.

I also want to come back to TRIOPTICS. Can you give us some guidance or expectations to what could be the expected sales volume of TRIOPTICS in 2021 and 2022?

So Peter, you know that we do not guide on particular products and businesses, business lines of ours. That's the policy that we apply and we stand behind that policy. We have acquired TRIOPTICS to be a sort of growth engine in the business. Obviously, as I said earlier, there has been a challenge in 2020 in terms of managing growth of the business and in parallel, a lengthy acquisition process by the management of TRIOPTICS. We expect the management of TRIOPTICS to now focus completely on growing the business. They do have a strong pipeline. They do have a very strong order book. On the other hand, we have to see how it develops throughout 2021 and 2022. We do expect this business to grow, that's why we acquired it as a growth engine and a business that's, in terms of profitability, way above fleet average. But you will understand that we do not give specific guidelines on individual businesses.

At the time you acquired TRIOPTICS, you mentioned, I think, it was 27% EBITDA margin. Is this still a level which is still correct?

Well, we -- again, we do not guide on particular businesses neither or in growth more in profit numbers, but it's a business that's certainly way above fleet average when it comes to profitability. And it's a business that should continue to be better than average, even for the Light & Optics business. So it should help lighten optics division to improve its margins even in percentage of sales. I think that gives you at least a lower floor.

Okay. Then with regard to your guidance, you mentioned you're expecting low double-digit sales growth. So low double digit could also be 20% or something like that. So do you mean low teens in growth? Or should we see the possibility that this should -- could also be in the range of 15%, 17%, 18% or something like that?

But I mean -- you know that we're maybe sometimes even on the conservative side when it comes to guidance. But we do believe that there is -- yes, there is just so much uncertainty still out there. So I don't want to mention the next [ first ] anymore, I shouldn't do that. But there is a lot of uncertainty out there at the moment. And that's why we are really very careful. It is hard to predict at the moment. We don't know to what extent the third wave of COVID will impact us. Of course, we do all we can to keep the virus out of our own factories. We are fairly successful thus far. We have isolated cases. But by now, we could isolate everybody and trace people very, very quickly. And I do keep saying that our clean rooms are probably the safest place actually. But there are a lot of uncertainties, which is why we are so, so, so careful in how we phrase our guidance. And I would leave it there in terms of low double digits. And obviously, that does mean it's going to be a bit more than, say, 9.9%. But it's double digits. But other than that, we have to see. We will give you more guidance once we have clearer guidance...

Between 15% and 20% or between 10% and 15%?

Well, no, I think he did say do we expect it within the teens? And the question is what teens is -- do you mean 13% or 15% or is 11% part of the teens? Or let's not debate that. We stick to low double-digit rate costs for now and this year, when things develop.

And then with regard to the EBITDA guidance, you mentioned you take the basis, the 14.6% or 9% reported EBITDA. Then we had, as you mentioned, EUR 19 million one-off there of EUR 15 million restructuring expenses. So as far as I understood, you do not expect that in 2021, we will see significant restructuring expenses. On the other hand, we have some positive impact from these measures. We have seen the consolidation of TRIOPTICS, which could add perhaps on the group figures, 100 basis point margin improvement. So can you please explain where should we see considerably worse margins than last year?

Look, again, your calculation is interesting. And obviously, we also do similar models and we dial certain numbers into our models. We will see further one-off effects in 2021 as well. We talked about VINCORION to some extent, where we will have to spend a bit more on restructuring. We also hopefully will have to spend money on M&A activities. And that's also an impact that we have in our adjusted figures. So it will not go down to 0. There's onetime and one-off effects, that's for sure. But we nevertheless want to be measured on reported EBITDA going forward. We always said this is a 1-year event that we sort of say, adjusted and reported. Nonetheless, your calculation is pointing to the fact that we have a fairly large corridor. We do, yes, see a lift up from the 14.6%, an expansion of margin to somewhere between 16% and 17%. And we will guide a bit more once we have more clarity, in particular, how VINCORION develops, how light and production develops, our metrology business develops. And I think those are the areas to watch, let's say.

With regard to semiconductor, you mentioned -- and we all know this business is currently booming. What growth rate would you be able to do in the semiconductor equipment business? I think that a key issue are capacity restraints in here.

Yes. I guess that's true. It's capacity. At the very moment, we would be able to sell way more laser dies out of Berlin, we would be able to sell more from a demand perspective. I would say that our business in micro optics, together with our customers in the Netherlands, is fairly predictable at the moment, as always. So we can manage that. But by and large, it is capacity. And by capacity, we mean some extent production tools, but probably even more engineers and experts and people. They already are back to working, Saturdays in semiconductor factories or factories for the semiconductor manufacturing well to be more precise. We are back on weekend shifts. And as we discussed a number of times throughout the year. I mean, these are not sort of engineers that we can pick off the trees out there. But that is the biggest constraint that we have, people, experts.

So are you able to do double-digit sales growth with these capacities in the current year?

We will certainly be helped by the consolidation effect TRIOPTICS.

To only the semiconductor?

Only semiconductor. I can't really answer the question, to be honest. Not that I don't want to, but I really don't know. But what I -- because we are fairly at the -- I shouldn't say at the limit there, but it's getting to a point where we are limited by the capacity. But we have already started investing into further production expansion in our operation factory. We communicated that at the end of last year. We invest into production equipment, further lithography tool for microstructure of uptakes based on electron beam technology. And we have just yesterday actually decided that we will also invest into further real estate in, let's called silicon sections. We will expand our factory there. Further communication to come. But at this moment, we decided that we will definitely grab some land, expand real estate. And then we have to see how we -- what we build on that real estate and how we equip whatever we build on that real estate.

Okay. And my last question is on housekeeping. You mentioned PPA for 2020 was, I think, EUR 14.9 million. Can you give us here your calculations for 2021, then clearly, including the full year for TRIOPTICS?

Hans-Dieter?

Yes, you're absolutely right, it was EUR 14.9 million in 2020. Thereof EUR 8.3 million for TRIOPTICS because we did acquire AUTOMAX. You remember, we did acquire INTEROB. So all in all, it has been 14.9% in the EBIT and EUR 4.6 million in the EBITDA last year. So it's in your calculation for '21. You missed a reduction of roughly EUR 2 million in the EBIT because we will have EUR 1.8 million EBITDA PPA impact in this inventory step-up from TRIOPTICS in '21, yes. Then it's gone in the EBITDA. And in total, it will be 15.2%. This is the -- in our calculation, the maximum amount of purchase price allocation in the next years. Now from '21 onwards, it will dilute. In '22, we are calculating 12.1%. So you see in which direction it's going, yes? The highest level will be in this year '21 and it's 15.2%, which we calculated in the EBIT. And in the EBITDA, as mentioned, it's 1.8%. Inventory step-up part 2 from TRIOPTICS, yes.

There are no further questions now.

Okay. Then I would say thank you, everybody, for joining the call today. And should there be any follow-up questions after this call, then don't hesitate to contact us, also at Investor Relations, and we'll be happy to answer any questions you may still have. Other than that, a good remainder of the day and a successful remainder of the week as well. Cheers, and goodbye.