Kardex Holding AG ($KARN)

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Kardex Full Year 2025 Results Conference Call and Live Webcast. I'm Vicky, the Chorus Call operator. [Operator Instructions] And the conference is being recorded. The presentation will be followed by a Q&A session. [Operator Instructions] The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Alex Muller, Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

Thank you, Vicky, and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I welcome you to our presentation of the Kardex Annual Results 2025. My name is Alex Muller, I'm responsible for Investor Relations, and I'm joined by Jens Hardenacke, our Group CEO; and Thomas Reist, our Group CFO, who will present final results. I would like to remind you that all the slides from the presentation as well as the press release and the annual report are all on our website. And with that, I would like to hand over to you, Jens.

Thanks a lot, Alex. Yes. Dear ladies and gentlemen, also from my side, a warm welcome to the Kardex Media and Analyst Conference for the year-end results of 2025. Let me start with our key message. We are happy with the full year 2025 results. In a difficult market environment with geopolitical tensions and trade uncertainties, Kardex reached all-time high bookings, net revenues and EBIT numbers. Beginning of 2025, we kicked off the implementation of our accelerated growth strategy. We formulated the target to become profitable EUR 1.5 billion net revenue company between 2029 and 2031. And after 1 year, we can say we are well on track. We made substantial investments in strategic growth initiatives with a clear focus on sales and marketing, innovation and digitalization. We invested into our sales force at Remstar, Mlog and AS Solutions. In 2025, we exhibited our One Kardex solution portfolio on 73 trade shows all over the world. We have increased our investment into hardware, but even more into software solutions to further differentiate from our competition. And we have further invested into our digital infrastructure to make our processes more efficient. And these investments in difficult times already paid off. In both market segments, automated products and standardized systems, we heavily gained market shares in a flat market environment. We increased bookings by more than 24% and almost reached the EUR 1 billion bookings mark for the first time. We were not able to transform the bookings quick enough into net revenues. Therefore, we increased our net revenues in 2025 by only 7.5%, which leaves us with a strong backlog for 2026. In 2025, we were very cautious with spending money outside of our previously mentioned focused investment areas. This led to an EBIT result of EUR 101.2 million, which is the first time in Kardex history that we reached an EBIT result above EUR 100 million. If you compare the performance of the second half of the year with the already very strong performance of the first half of the year. You can see that in all three categories, bookings, net revenues and EBIT. The second half of the year was even stronger than the first half of the year, which is exactly what Thomas and myself have indicated during the presentation of the half year numbers 6 months ago. The booking performance of standardized systems in the second half of the year was just extraordinary. In total, standardized system increased bookings in 2025 by more than 50% and that was driven by the performance of both AS Solutions and Mlog. For our automated products, we saw a more moderate booking performance in the second half of the year compared to the very strong first half of the year. But we already see in the last couple of weeks that also here, the demand for the products and solutions gradually picks up again. Normally, when you hear that bookings increase heavily in a tough market environment, you assume that margins go down. But we do not see this with Kardex in 2025. Our gross profit margin is still at a very high level and only diminished slightly due to our sales mix as the percentage of standardized systems is now relatively higher than before and due to higher personnel expenses. Our return of invested capital reached 35% in 2025 and remained on a very strong level. End of 2025, we added a fourth business unit to our portfolio when we acquired the majority shares of Rocket Solutions. From December last year onwards, we will report Rocket Solutions under our Standardized Systems segment. Rocket complements the solution portfolio of Kardex. I will talk about the reasons for the acquisitions later on. Due to the good financial results of the year 2025, we proposed a dividend payment of CHF 6 per share, which would be a dividend payment at the same level as in 2024. So all-in-all, we are very happy about the results of the year 2025. Despite a challenging market environment, we are growing and gaining market shares. And we see already that our investment in sales and marketing, research and development and IT infrastructure starts to pay off. With this, I would like to hand over to my colleague, Thomas for more details on our financial results.

Thank you very much, Jens. Welcome also from my side to this conference call. As always, I would like to start with the key figures with the development of the last 5 years. Starting with the bookings, as mentioned by Jens before, bookings increased quite substantially by 24%. This is not above the CAGR of 30%, and the reason was also mentioned by Jens before. This is the systems business. So mainly Kardex AutoStore and Kardex Mlog increased the volume, mainly in second half of the year. So more than 50% of additional volume. But also Kardex Remstar contributed to that good result by plus 9%. When we look at the net revenues here, Jens mentioned that net revenues increased by only 10.5%. This is true, but this is below CAGR with roughly 17%. But here, we also have to remind ourselves that the years '22 and '23 were heavily affected by price increases we had to apply into the market. And also an additional effect mentioned by Jens as well. The systems business was very strong in regards to bookings in the second half of the year. And therefore, we lacked a bit time for the execution of the order intake. Looking at the EBIT and EBIT margin, here a loss of roughly 3% on the EBIT level, far below the CAGR but we remain more or less on the same level. When we look at the EBIT margin, so a similar level with the 11.9% EBIT margin achieved. This despite the fact that the share of systems business has increased and our investments continue. But I also allow myself to mention it, first time in the history of Kardex, we achieved an EBIT of above EUR 100 million. Free cash flow dropped significantly compared to last year to EUR 20.5 million. Here, the reason is that we had an extremely strong 2024, so positive impact on that level. CapEx were not invoiced to the very last extent. And also, we had cash inflow because of POC projects we won by the very end of the year. And this year, the contrary happened. So CapEx was invoiced, and we had a very strong order intake in Q3 and mainly also Q4, where the cash inflow did not happen. And in addition, net working capital also increased, but we will go into further details in the cash flow slide. So now having a look at the income statement to more detail -- in more details. Again, bookings increased by 24% or in other words, by EUR 190 million. Of this EUR 190 million, EUR 150 million were contributed by the systems business and EUR 40 million by Kardex Remstar, respectively, automated products. So this increased the share of the systems business. So the share increased from 35% to 43%. Order backlog increased also quite substantially by 26%. Here, only systems business contributed. When we look at the visibility on a group level, this increased from roughly 7 months to 8 months because of the higher backlog in the end. Book-to-bill ratio was at 1.15 overall. Net revenues mentioned before, 7.5% or in other words, EUR 60 million in addition. Here, both reporting segments contributed positively to the net revenues growth, whereas a stronger contribution from the systems business, also here, the share increased from 30% to 33%. Gross profit margin remained more or less on the same level, slight decrease from 35% to 34.1%. Main reason for the slight decrease is the mix between the automated products and systems business and due to minor effects in Kardex Remstar. We have a further look in the later slide. OpEx increased by 6% or in other words, EUR 10 million. Here, our main activities continued. So growth initiatives continued in our sales organization, marketing activities, IT and R&D. The resulting EBIT is roughly 3% higher than previous year. EBIT margin 11.9%. And as mentioned before, the EUR 101.2 million EBIT reached in the year 2025. And with that, very much in the middle of our target range of financial target of 10% to 14% on group level. Allow me one word on the FX impact. Here, we saw higher impact than in the previous years. When I go through on bookings level, we had a negative impact of roughly EUR 12 million, net revenue as well, minus EUR 12 million, gross profit, minus EUR 4 million and EBIT minus EUR 1.2 million. Now let's have a look at the income statement below EBIT. As you here, most of you have seen that already that we had a negative impact on the financial results. But first, allow me one word regarding the positive impact. So we have positive impact on our financial asset investments and interest gains, the smaller positive impact. We had a negative impact because of FX and the bigger impact is the impairment of the loan of -- we provided to Rocket Solutions. Here, the situation is as such that Swiss GAAP FER does not give guidance when it comes to a combination of pre-existing relationship and a debt acquisition. So that's the reason why you have to apply for this transaction IFRS. And for IFRS, it is a technical requirement to settle pre-existing relationship, and this led to a technical full write-off of this loan of EUR 39 million. To remind you, this is a non-cash item, so it has no impact on our cash and cash flow, and it is also a non-operational transaction. So there is no effect on our dividend payment. Because of the settlement and write-off, also our tax rate went up because it is also non-tax effective this write-off and the tax rate accordingly went up by 37%. The result for the period also dropped to EUR 41.8 million and the margin also achieved roughly 5%. When we deduct the non-operational effect, then we achieved more or less the same results than in the previous year. Now having a look at the balance sheet. Also here, we see an effect of this non-operating transaction of the settlement of the Rocket loan. When you go to the equity, the equity went down by EUR 15 million, affected by this write-off of EUR 39 million and also the equity ratio went down by roughly 4 percentage points compared to last year and also to the neutralized equity ratio. Additional effects we see on the cash and cash equivalents. This went down mainly because of high net working capital. You see that on the accounts receivable and inventory side as well as on the accounts payable. But let us have a look on the cash flow statement. What really happened here, the result of the period is negatively affected by this non-operating transaction. You see that with minus EUR 39 million. But we have here in the cash flow statement a counter effect, a positive counter effect on the change in non-cash items because, as I mentioned before, the settlement is a non-cash effect, and therefore, it's neutralized here in the cash flow statement. The real effect on the cash flow comes from the increased net working capital. Here, we have a cash effect of the net working capital increase of EUR 15 million, mainly coming from the accounts receivable. They increased because we had a strong net revenues in Q4, where we did not receive all the cash already in the reporting year 2025. Inventories also went up here mainly because we increased the security stock levels because of the geopolitical tension, and a slightly positive impact on the accounts payable. And also a negative side effect on the CapEx. Here, we increased our investment activities. You remember, we are in the transformation program. So it changed to one ERP system, SAP S/4 HANA. And we also invest in buildings and equipment. And here, we have a negative cash effect compared to last year of roughly EUR 21 million. Resulting free cash flow, as mentioned before, EUR 20.5 million. Now having a deeper look into the segments, starting with the Automated Products segment, consisting solely of the business unit, Kardex Remstar. Here we have increased our bookings by roughly 9%. Allow me here one word in regards to the geographical split of this effect. Here, main contributor was EMEA, so the European region with plus 12% compared to previous year, followed by Americas, plus 6% and APAC contributed negatively with minus 8%. Order backlog here went slightly down by 6% or EUR 17 million. That's the reason why we have a book-to-bill ratio below 1, so 0.98. The reason for this reduced backlog is mainly because we improved our execution. So we have the possibility to deliver our machines faster and the visibility went very slightly down from 5.8 months to 5.3 months. Net revenues went up by roughly 3%. Also here, I would like to provide you with the geographical split of that impact here, Americas contributed most with plus 8%, followed by EMEA, plus 4%, and also here, APAC contributed negatively with minus 5%. The mix between the functions remained more or less stable, but there we have, on the next slide, a better view. Gross profit increased slightly. Gross profit margin remained more or less on the same level, slightly down by 0.7 percent points. Here, we have a tariff impact, U.S. tariffs with minus EUR 1.1 million, FX impact of minus EUR 3 million, and we also have slightly lower the business in the U.S. market. EBIT margin, on the other hand, remained exactly on the same level. So within our financial guidance of 14% to 17% and here remains at the upper end of our financial corridor. Now as promised before, development of the KPIs for automated products, specifically with Kardex Remstar, here, we see that net revenues grew slower than the CAGR with roughly 3%. But here again, we have an effect on the price increases of the years '22 and '23, which increased the CAGR. And as mentioned by Jens before as well, we have a slight slowdown in H2 due to the geopolitical uncertainties, but also customer-related project delays. On EBIT level, mentioned before as well, EBIT margin remained quite stable on the same level. EBIT increased slightly, but below CAGR. Net revenues by function. Here, we see a very slight increase of the upsales business, so 1% point higher than in the previous year and also a very slight change in regional split. So Americas increased their share to 25% at cost of APAC with 8% to minus 1% for the APAC region. Now let's have a look at the Systems business to the 26.5% we have already. So we currently own 87% of Rocket Solutions. This happened in the very beginning of December. So first consolidation happened 1st December 2025. That's also the reason why the impact of Rocket Solution is very insignificant, no substantial contribution, whether positive or negative to the results. And therefore, we also included it in the Kardex annual results. The remaining 13% of the shares are with the former founders of Rocket Solution, and we have the option right to acquire this 13% in the future. So now let's have a look at the income statement, the financial highlights 2025. Here, the very substantial increase of the bookings level, so more than 50% more volume on bookings. Very impressive, in my opinion, a book-to-bill ratio of 1.52. And here, I would like to give you some insights regarding the geographical split as well. So from the bookings, EMEA share is the highest. We realized 75% of the bookings in EMEA, roughly 20% in Americas and the remaining 5% in the APAC region. When we look at the growth pattern compared to last year, the highest relative contribution comes from the Americas market, plus 160%, followed by EMEA, plus 40% and the APAC region with plus 60%. You see the split between Mlog together with Rocket and AS Solutions, so it is not at that time, not only AS Solutions contributing a very high portion of additional bookings, is also Mlog, which contributed a lot of additional volume. The order backlog increased by roughly 70%. Here, I don't go into the split, but just to remind you what is the visibility of the two areas. So Mlog and Rocket, they both have a realization period between 9 to 18 months. Mix is around 12 months of realization time, whereas for the AS Solutions or for the AutoStore project is an average 9 months. Net revenues increased by roughly 19%. Here also the split highest volume by EMEA, 76%; Americas, 17%; and APAC roughly 10%. Gross profit increased by roughly 20%. Gross profit margin slightly increased from 22.6% to 22.8%. And this despite the period we are in where we are investing a lot into both organizations, Mlog as well as AS Solutions. This investment, we also see in the OpEx. So OpEx went up quite substantially. The main areas of investment is the sales and marketing area. So we invest in growth in marketing and also R&D mainly for software activity. That's also the reason why the EBIT went down minus 4.2% compared to last year and also the EBIT margin went down to 5.0%, so exactly at the lower level of our financial target range of 5% to 8%. Here also a look at the development of the most important KPIs. Net revenues increased by 19%, substantially below the 33% CAGR, but it is always easier to grow when you're on a low level. So in absolute terms, we grew a lot and also net revenues were affected because bookings were very, very strong in Q3 and Q4. So we have not enough time to execute the project. This will happen in the year 2026. Then EBIT and EBIT margin, I explained already. One of the main reasons for this dropped EBIT margin is that the share of AS Solutions went up and AS Solutions is heavily investing in sales and marketing and also the organizational maturity. Net revenues by function here, hardly any change, only 1% point where the LCS business went up. Here, AS Solutions contributed also the first time. So the AutoStore business is more and more increasing, whereas on a very low level, it's still below 4% points of the total volume. On the other hand, net revenues by region. Here, we see a clear impact of the AS Solutions business. So we see a better distribution on the global scale. Americas share went up from 9% to 17%, plus 8% points. The APAC share went up from 2% to 7%, plus 5% points. So far higher international split of our Standardized Systems share. Thank you for the interest. I would like to hand back to you, Jens, for the outlook.

Thanks a lot, Thomas. Before I want to give you an outlook for the year 2026, I would like to explain our reasons for the acquisition of the majority shares of Rocket Solution, as already indicated during the beginning of the Kardex Media and Analyst Conference. Kardex was already very well positioned in the market for warehouse automation before the acquisition of Rocket Solution. With our portfolio, we are able to accompany each customer from the first steps of automation with our automated products from Remstar to more advanced Standardized System Solutions of AS Solutions and Mlog. But here on this slide, you see that with the multi-shuttle solutions of Rocket Solution, we will get a better coverage in the handling of light goods, especially if customers ask for the combination of high performance and midsized capacity requirements or if the height of the building is more than 8 meters, a multi-shuttle solution is often the most preferred storing solution. So therefore, we decided to invest into a multi-shuttle solution as this would complement our solution portfolio and would help us to cover the entire automation journey for our actual and potential customers in an even better way than before. There are already a couple of multi-shuttle solutions in the market. We invested into Rocket Solutions because we see a couple of advantages compared to these other multi-shuttle solutions. With the up to 6 deep bin storage and the space optimized rack design, we can clearly say that the Rocket multi-shuttle is the most dense multi-shuttle in the market. Also, the load handling process is different from other multi-shuttle technologies and minimize mechanical stress, which leads to lower maintenance costs. We are convinced that the Rocket multi-shuttle is the ideal technology that complements our existing solution portfolio. In 2025, we've seen a lot of occasions that customers appreciate to work with suppliers that can offer different technologies out of one hand. Suppliers that offer a combination of simple solutions and advanced solutions, suppliers that can offer light good solutions together with pallet handling solutions. And this is one of Kardex's core strengths. More and more often, we win the trust of customers as One Kardex. In 2025, we generated around EUR 150 million of bookings with projects in which more than one Kardex business unit offered combined solutions to our customers. In most of the cases, in the combination of Mlog and AS Solutions, but we also saw joint projects from Rocket and Mlog from Remstar and Mlog as well as from Remstar and AS Solutions. This means that we see more and more synergies between the different business units. And therefore, we are sure that the acquisition of Rocket Solutions will further strengthen the already very strong market position of Kardex. And this is also the way we want to continue. We have individual business units with strong positions in the respective markets. We are the market leader for entry-level automated products of Remstar. For Advanced Standardized System solutions, we offer AutoStore Solution, Rocket Solution and combined technology solutions by Mlog. By combining the strength of the different business units, we are able to offer everything out of one hand from entry-level solutions to more advanced solutions. The customer does not have to work with several different suppliers to get different kind of automation solutions, but can find everything from Kardex. The strategy towards a more customer-centric organization was one of the main reasons for the accelerated growth in 2025 and will also be one of the main reasons for our future growth. With the acquisition of Rocket Solutions, we have enhanced our solution portfolio with the most dense multi-shuttle solution in the market, which helps us to further expand our addressable market. We will continue to invest into sales and marketing, R&D and IT infrastructure to get more feet on the ground to further strengthen our position in the market and to continue to drive profitable growth. Therefore, our outlook for 2026 stays positive. We expect the demand for Kardex intralogistics solutions to remain strong. The geopolitical and macroeconomic challenges will remain, but we will continue our path of profitable growth also in 2026. On the one hand, global trends like reshoring, labor shortage and automation will drive the general growth of warehouse automation. And on the other hand, Kardex is so well positioned across all business units to capitalize from these trends and to outperform the market in both segments, Automated Products and even more in Standardized Systems. We will further invest into sales and marketing, R&D and IT to further outperform the market and to create the basis for continuous profitable growth. As I mentioned in the first part of this Kardex Media and Analyst Conference, in 2025, our bookings grew a lot, while we were not able to transform most of the bookings into net revenues. Due to the strong backlog at the beginning of 2026 and the good project pipeline for all four business units, we expect that the net revenue growth for Kardex for 2026 will be above the projected average, while we confirm the general financial midterm targets as shown here again. With these comments, I would like to hand over to the operator to start the last part of the Kardex Media and Analyst conference, the questions and answers.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Sebastian Vogel, UBS.

I have three questions. I would ask them one by one. The first one relates to your outlook and coming back to your last statement there. So does it mean actually you expect that net revenue growth in 2026 should be above the 14%?

Yes.

That's clear. Second thing is on the margin guidance. In the past, I got the impression that you sort of aim for something around 12%, potentially a little bit less than 12% for -- also for 2026. Is that also still a decent ballpark? Or do you think a different number would be sort of applicable?

Yes, Sebastian. Actually, we believe that it is around slightly below 12%.

Got it. And then the last question is on the current trading side. I mean, you have alluded in some of the initial remarks already. But nonetheless, if you could share a little bit of thoughts across the sort of portfolio would have increased, including also AS Solutions, Mlog, what sort of order momentum you have seen on a year-to-date basis for each of the different subsegments? That would be appreciated.

Sorry, Sebastian, we didn't get question. Can you please repeat the question again?

Yes, if you can sort of share your insights on how order momentum was for AS Solution, Mlog and Remstar on a year-to-date basis.

Okay. On a year-to-date basis, we currently see a very strong order momentum or booking momentum for Mlog and for AS Solutions. As we have said before, the second half of the year of Remstar was not so strong. We also saw this in January and also in the beginning of February. Now in the last 2, 3 weeks, we see that this is picking up again.

The next question from Constantin Hesse, Jefferies.

I've got actually one question. Just on the free cash flow profile into '26. Can you just remind us again of the CapEx dynamics that you expect? And what kind of free cash flow generation we can expect over the next couple of years based on -- so I think you said the CapEx -- you still have elevated CapEx between '26 and '27. Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct. Well, CapEx will further increase, to be honest. And our guidance says that we will be between EUR 40 million to EUR 50 million, depending a bit what happens with our Asian factory because EUR 50 million includes a fully fledged factory in Asia. And here, we have different options. So we probably go not for a fully fledged factory there, and this will reduce the capital expenditures requirements in the year '27 accordingly. But for the year 2026, we expect higher CapEx in the year 2025. Was that your question?

Yes, sorry. So EUR 40 million to EUR 50 million for '26 and the same for '27. Is that it? Sorry, because the line is a bit bad.

Actually, it's -- yes, correct. That's correct.

[Operator Instructions] A follow-up question from Sebastian Vogel, UBS.

Yes. Sorry, me again, two quick follow-ups. With regard to net working capital, I just wondering, do you see there's more of a headwind or a tailwind in 2026? And then I would have another follow-up.

I think there are more tailwinds to be honest, because we are at the lower end. So we will have higher cash inflows because of the projects we have won. So we had quite a bad momentum by the end of the year. So invoices were raised, but the cash was not inflows. So for me, we have rather a positive momentum in the year 2026.

Got it. And the other question is with regard to the Remstar order intake in the second half. I would assume also from your mentioned numbers on U.S. growth, that the U.S. was definitely one of the weaker ones regarding the order momentum over there. Is there some sort of pent-up demand that you would expect that would come back somewhere in 2026? Or is that like gone forever, so to say? Or would you -- do you have any thoughts there with sharing?

No, we think, as you mentioned before. So the U.S. was on the weaker side, and we believe that we will see a much stronger year in 2026. As you may have read between the lines, so in the past, the U.S. government was the strongest single customer from us. And due to the delay of the so-called big beautiful bills, we haven't seen a lot of spendings there in the year 2025. So this we expect in the first half of 2026 and basically also for the entire year 2026 and also for other industry segments, because there was also this uncertainty and this for the tariffs. We at least have now most likely for the next 150 days, we have a clear scenario. So therefore -- and we see this already that customers try to make use of this short-term security about tariffs. And therefore, we expect a strong year of the U.S. for Remstar in 2026.

Got it. And sorry, one last question, if I may, as I'm already speaking. Not just a little bit far away, but 2027, the EBIT margins. I mean, by the time your investment program should be finished, potentially top line is also coming in further. Is it like that you have then a step up directly by whatever, like 100 basis points that we could expect there? Or what is your sort of thinking how margin should be then developing, assuming the top line would be doing what you're expecting?

Yes. Actually, our investments also continue into the year 2027. So we are not through with our investment in the transformation. So also in 2027, it might come back slightly, but it's a bit far worry, to be honest.

A follow-up question from Constantin Hesse, at Jefferies.

And just a quick follow-up. I'm curious because like when I look at what's going out there, right, if you look at KION's reporting, Interroll reported this morning, everyone is reporting numbers that are clearly not exceptional as you're reporting. Now you obviously have the benefit of seeing some regional growth for Mlog. But if you could maybe comment a little bit on the market dynamics that you are seeing, what are some of the key segments where you're seeing all this growth coming from?

It's not so much about the key segments. I think we have a very good position in the market because we see this more and more. So this was one of the slides that we have shown consulting that customers are looking for getting everything out of one source and not asking for three or four different suppliers. So therefore, I think this is something where we have a unique position in the market that we offer entry-level solutions as well as advanced solution. For sure, we also see some good momentum in e-commerce, for example, we see some good momentum for defense. But these are not really reflected in the 2025 figure so far. So we really see that one of the biggest advantages that we have also compared to the others that you just mentioned that we have this broad portfolio and we can basically offer everything from entry level to advanced solution out of one hand. So this is one of, I would say, 2/3 of the growth that we have seen in 2025 has the origin in this -- yes, in this relative good position of CapEx covering entry level as well as advanced automation.

Yes, that's great. And then if I may, I think you mentioned that the order intake into the year-to-date already is showing, it's already pretty promising, at least for Mlog and AutoStore. Now look, I'm not assuming that 52% that you reported last year are going to be sustainable. But when you say strong, do you think that there is still a possibility that we could be seeing something in the teens in '26 growth-wise order momentum?

I think the question was raised before already. So Jens confirmed that we see at least in the range. So the order intake momentum is good, and in the range of our financial guidance, it's slightly above.

But you -- Constantin, you mentioned that whether we will expect another 50% or so growth, now most likely the growth will be below this.

No, not 15%, sorry. As I said, if it's going to be something around the teens area. So basically assume something around your medium-term guidance growth-wise. Okay.

[Operator Instructions] Gentlemen, there are no more questions at this time.

Okay. So thank you very much, Vicky, and ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our conference. And thank you very much for your interest in the company and taking your time to listen to our webcast. And if you have any further questions, obviously, we are always available to whatever with e-mail or phone, you can always contact us. So thank you very much, and goodbye.

Ladies and gentlemen, the conference is now over. Thank you for choosing Chorus Call, and thank you for participating in the conference. You may now disconnect your lines. Goodbye.