KEFI Gold and Copper Plc (KEFI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, and welcome to the KEFI Minerals' live investor Q&A. I'm joined today with Executive Chairman, Harry Anagnostaras-Adams. Harry, it's great to have you with us today.

Good to be here. Thank you.

Now Harry, as always, we've had a huge number of questions being submitted. We've tried to group them to answer everyone's questions. And if we jump straight into it. I think there's been a huge amount of questions on financing. So we'll start there. With our first question, Harry, have you drawn down standby working capital facility, all of it, some of it? Tell us more.

A bit of it. But before I go on, let me just introduce my colleague, Dr. Kebede Belete. He's very much the father of the Tulu Kapi project. He's been with it from its inception 15 years ago. He's Deputy Chairman of Tulu Kapi Gold Mines, the project company; Chairman of KEFI Minerals Ethiopia. And he and I, between us, Chair and Deputy Chair of the industry groupings in the country for private sector. And I just thought that given there may be questions about what's happening on the ground or with COVID, it's an opportunity to introduce another member of the team. Thank you.

If I just repeat the first question for you, Harry. Harry, have you drawn down standby working capital facility?

A little bit of it. Yes, but not all of it, yes? Yes, that's a little bit of it, but not all of it. Sorry, that answers the question.

So Harry, the second question is, will you be making a placing anytime soon?

I mean it's value accretive to the company. So that's the answer that one should give to all such questions about placings. Obviously, we prioritize raising money at the project level. Most of the money in Tulu Kapi has been spent at the project level by other people, and that would be the case in the future. And that's the way we operate to try to minimize ownership dilution. But obviously, if we want to grow in the business, we will use our equity market access where appropriate.

So Harry, what are the key steps left for the whole financing for Tulu Kapi?

Well, there's really 4 phases of funding Tulu Kapi since we've been involved. One is, if you like, a period, just only we were putting money in. About a year ago, it became the second phase, which is the government started putting in money alongside us as well on their signed jobs, if you like, the off-site infrastructure. The third phase is what we're going to now -- triggering now, and that is that when the other project-level investors subscribe their funding. And that is where we -- what we just announced is the formation of the consortium. And right now, we're waiting for the senior banks to determine the quantum that they require to then provide their component, which is the largest component of project financing. So we had independent sign-up on $221 million. The banks have to check that, and will say, no, it should be $225 million or whatever. But because it's already been independently signed up, we're fairly comfortable we're in the right ballpark. And I'd say, set, that's the right sum for the project, and they set what they're prepared to provide. Then the rest of the consortium will set out in that RNS the other day, can then sit down and a portion within the consortium, the balance. So that's phase 3, looking to finish that this quarter so that the funds from all of the project-level investors can flow as of now. The fourth phase is when bank monies are available, and bank monies get drawn down probably the middle of next year after equity has been drawn into the project to kick it off. So the schedule is -- was, is, remains. So we kicked off the project in January in terms of the full development commitment. And we're in this quarter going from having formed the consortium to finalizing the requirement from the banks and their contribution to finalizing the contribution of all the consortium members. That's what the story is about. So 4 phases. One, we'll fund it. The government will fund it. We'll have project-level investors introduce their capital this quarter. And then the banks start -- we'll start growing on the bank capital in the middle of next year.

So Harry, how much money will KEFI need during 2021 and 2022 to fund the business before the company's first revenue comes in, in Q4 2022? And where will this funding be sourced from?

We're a public-listed company. And if we are going to grow the business, any business will grow in its merit. So if we want to pursue the, what do you call it, the exploration project in Hawiah, we sell it out, we dilute, or we contribute. If we want to explore, either we bring in partners to explore, which is a distinct possibility, or we'll sell it out, dilute or contribute. I mean this is not rocket science. And if shareholders want to be part of it, they should be part of it. If they don't think we can add value through these exploration projects, they shouldn't be part of it, and really as simple as that. I can't say we're a public company and that we won't spend any money, but we'll keep growing our business in the meantime. I can't say that without a project finance, sell project, contribute to a project or dilute. These are the choices we have. We have -- now that the market has changed, and it's quite a completely different market to what it's been for, I don't know, how many years, the choices open to the company are much, much greater than many more choices available to us, much more support to push the business forward or to sell an asset or to joint venture an asset. Many more choices than we've ever had. So I think the next few years will be relatively easy and lucrative compared to the last.

So Harry, a number of shareholders have asked you just to confirm, when do you now envisage that the first Tulu Kapi funding money will actually be received? And also, do you think that KEFI has enough working capital to reach that point?

Well, I've already answered that. We've drawn a bit of our working capital, but certainly, not all of it, and that we're looking to close the next stage of the financing this quarter.

Harry, what due diligence do you see is needed before the experienced African investors and specialist mining financiers can make a binding commitment to the project from today's nonbinding commitment?

The main thing is what we were just discussing. We've handled the package of independently reviewed project information to the banks. They have to decide what they believe is bankable in their eyes. They have to decide and commit to a full credit approval that they're prepared to put in. And then the rest of us can say, okay, I'll take this piece, you do that, and these are the final percentages. So the project investors need to see the banks as so much adjudicated. They just finished their work. They're here today. They're here with us, working with us. So they're not mucking around. COVID or no COVID, everybody is here working. And that's what we've been.

And how soon do you envisage the experienced African investors to contribute their investment to Tulu Kapi Gold Mine?

I think we'll move on. I answered the question already. We're looking to wrap that up this quarter, the whole next phase of the financing for the project-level investors to get in this story.

Now Harry, you said that in the RNS that all these outstanding matters will be completed in the current quarter. How confident are you that it is achievable with COVID-related complications, to the movement of people and so forth going forward?

Well, COVID is -- if anybody on the call is able to predict where clusters will break out, they'll bring some sort of wonderful global price. So nobody can predict exactly the consequences of COVID. But what I can say is that we've changed our policies and procedures accordingly. We've sort of stress tested the scheduling for the construction to cater for the slow-offs and disruptions. And we're quite comfortable with what we're seeing ahead of the COVID in the way we've scheduled. When -- we put out a PowerPoint today, which was a sort of a complement to the quarterly report we put out late last week. And on one of the slides, there's sort of like a mini schedule for the project, and it's set out in very broad terms. But within anything, construction schedule is slow, that you can move things around a little bit or parallel certain things. So we think we're okay. Love to say that many mining projects, development projects haven't been suspended because of COVID. That has happened. But I think the fortunate thing is that we're tenacious. The government wants us to be tenacious. And we've got African banks and African-experienced investors who are here because they understand the country. I think we did -- as it turns out, who could have predicted the bulk of pandemic. But if we remain with non-African-based investors on the project financing, it might have been a different story. But by switching that out a year or 2 ago, we've got ourselves banks who do well, who do care, and at this stage, who've given no sign of backing away. They were with us just today. We've been meeting the new minister of the mines. And so everybody is on the same page at this time.

Harry, do you think the government will be willing to inject investment earlier to help ensure that the project can start as planned and so you're not reliant on the experienced and gut African investor and specialist mining finance to complete their due diligence?

It's tough for me to say that the government will be willing to probably arrange and so it's commercial and confidence and not really for the public domain.

All right. Another question from a shareholder, because the deadline has been missed, would KEFI be applying any cost-cutting exercises to ensure KEFI does not run out of any working capital before project finance is binding and completed?

Sorry, what was the question? Would we defer salaries and so on and that's sort of things, is that the question?

There's a question from a shareholder saying that, will KEFI be applying any cost-cutting exercises to ensure KEFI does not run out of any working capital?

We do that all the time. We do that all the time. And I think it may be hard for some African investors to quite comprehend this, but most of the senior people employed by the company actually don't rely on this company to live. We're doing it because we see the potential here. And our salaries have been postponed more months than not, I would say. So -- I mean I can say that from personal experience over the last 6 years. So -- and it's the same thing for the senior team. You haven't seen or met most of them, but there's a lot of people here who really care and work. And the very senior people actually have their wages and salaries postponed regularly. We do that. We do that. Unfortunately, it's been necessary in the last few years of stock market doldrums as opposed to the sector, and hopefully, won't last too much longer, but we do that without hesitation. So you don't really need to ask the question. We've done it for years.

Now Harry, a number of investors have said before that deadlines have been missed in many cases, although many would say through no fault of your own. But investors are now asking how can they believe you this time that financing will be completed this quarter?

That's from their view. I'm not here to really pretend on who we need or pretend that COVID might not affect something or pretend anything. I'm just saying that the banks are here. We have a new minister today. We're all working on the same schedule. In terms of the CPs, or conditions precedent for placings, that's being circulated and is being focused on and turned away actually during the course of the week. Usually, putting aside the fact that pandemic struck the whole world out of that field, usually, I suppose in the last few years, the main retardant has been -- I think, really has been Ethiopian political changes and administrative holdups to establish new policies for this industry and this project that have been logistical to allow us to bring in project finance, to allow us to do all sorts of things that we've recorded in RNSs over the years. Maybe Dr. Kebede is best to comment on from -- if you look back over the last 3 years of delays of different things, clearly, the political situation and we're paying for administrative delays because of the problems that we had typically. How would you consider today versus on what to depend?

Yes. I mean in the last 3, 4 years, there are 3 state of emergencies. We had a change of the government. And the last one is we came up with the COVID. And during that period, we finished most of the policy issues [indiscernible] financing others. Now we don't need any policy issues to go forward. It's only administrative approval. It is as we expected. So I think we are in the right place now. The government is pushing it -- pushing. We are very confident to finish it by the end of the year, most of it, if not all.

Okay. So we're just getting candid responses. We tell it like we see it. And when we can't predict some hit from left field politically, we suffer the consequences. But I think what we're saying is today, the energy in each meeting is palpable, and it's all about closing and going forward. That's what it's all about. So I think we're in a good place where we sit today.

Harry, when can KEFI officially name the new partners? Why didn't they want to be named instead of the intriguingly stated Ethiopian division of global industrial company local investor, which is listed on the London Stock Exchange with a market cap exceeding $1 billion and also one of the world's leading commodity trading companies?

Frankly, because we're not that important to them. They're much bigger than the Tulu Kapi project. They like the deal. Otherwise, they wouldn't have signed up. But they're really -- that really want the distraction of 3,000 questions today on what's happening in Tulu Kapi. We're running a global business in many countries, both of them. And when the whole deal was approved to their satisfaction, that allows us to be nice than before, and I think that was, in their position, the same thing.

And we've got a final question around funding here, Harry. In the event that a further fundraise is necessary to keep the lights on, if you will, will directors consider an offer on primary bid so that retail investors can participate?

Primary bid, I need to be refreshed, to be honest. Memory makes a sort of a weekend job where you get people over the weekend to put in GBP 1 million or whatever. I think there are fairly easy things to do if you're dealing with very small sums of money, I do, and if you're dealing with, how would I put it, just dealing with the retail market. And so yes, we'd look at that as a candidate. No reason why not to. But I have to take advice, frankly, because I honestly don't remember exactly what it comprises.

Thanks, Harry. Now we've had a number of questions come in around Jibal Qutman. What's the time frame on further news on Jibal Qutman?

It depends on the regulators, and Saudi time is not the same as our time in terms of the way things move there. You may think things are slow in Ethiopia, but they're slower in Saudi Arabia. So Jibal Qutman is stuck in the mud, pending release out of the regulatory system. And anyone who might have followed the system in Saudi Arabia would know that there's been a whole new way and licenses to be issued are being promised for end of this year or early next year. And I'd like to think that Jibal Qutman would be clarified in the same sort of way with the clarifications over the regulatory authorities. But I lost track of how many times I've been given a petition about when it will come out of the Saudi authorities and -- as well. But certainly, they're turning on the engines, if you like, for the sector over there. So -- and I know that the -- at the ministerial level, it's been taken very seriously because it's part of the whole process of the country that the ministry over there wants to see opened up to the industry. So I think that it will come to a head around the end of the year. That's an indicator that gets stronger than being able to have any sort of control over it.

Harry, if given the go-ahead for mining at Jibal Qutman, how long would the process take to get the mine up and running? And also what would Jibal Qutman cost KEFI to get that up and running?

Well, we're talking here about a relatively small heap leach operation. I would say it takes 18 months to do a full DFS, having planned its tenure, and then probably get up and running fairly quickly in terms of open pitting and setting up heap leaches. So I would say in the following year or so, so all together, realistically, I don't know, 2, 3 years from now, something like that.

And do you think that it's likely that the resource is bigger than currently anticipated?

For sure, yes. Well, we only have focused on the oxidized zone. They are much bigger in depth, but we focused on the oxidized zone to be able to focus on heap leach the material. But there's also slightly streaming of coal in these deposits, maybe little deposits, and there's a lot more of them. So it will get bigger given just the oxidized component. So this Jibal Qutman is, I think, waking up, but we want to see the license tenure confirmed before we put our statement coming in.

Now moving on to Ethiopia. Harry, can you discuss the drill prospects outside of Tulu Kapi that you outlined in your recent presentation?

Well, there's an area that's been reserved for us. We call it the proximal license or licenses. And it's -- what we see is really quite a number of deposits there that will contribute to a central plant in Tulu Kapi. The father of the project is sitting next to me, you should talk about it. Dr. Kebede, the team hasn't been really able to do anything with these -- with the proximal license area. First of all, do you think a proximal license will be granted shortly?

Yes. I mean the government promised us processing and promised us to give us a license. Once we finish this project financing concept here that we're working, we discussed it with the minister today, and he's positive that they will visit very soon. It has a quotation. So already some of them are drilled by KEFI and the previous owner in America and showed a good prospect for gold mineralization, but the number is a hope for us. Maybe some of them are 5 to 10 ounce deep clusters. There are also new prospects for BMS, previously tested by United Nation Development Program, by the ministry. So it is 1,100 kilometer squared. There could be good potential to be a source of coal and other metals for the future of Tulu Kapi Gold Mines plus KEFI.

There's a saying, I think, it's a truism that most gold discoveries are within eyesight of a head frame -- or we don't have a head frame in Tulu Kapi. It's the open pit. But the moral of the story is that these things don't come in isolation. And more often than not, they cluster. And so there will be more deposits that have gone down than that. And it's important to the government to give us this license so that we turn the Tulu Kapi project into a Tulu Kapi Mine district with a number of pits that turns a sort of an 8-year time horizon into 15, 20, 30, whatever the new time horizon. So the families and careers -- employees can look further ahead and build a more sustainable local environment. So both truism in the exploration game and social policy have a large priority on that side of things, and we're very optimistic that will bring some satellite deposits to the table fairly quickly.

Now Harry, Dr. Kebede, you've pretty well answered this, but can you just confirm whether you've had the opportunity to meet the new minister of mines and comment on your relationship?

Well, we met him today. We have a wonderful relationship. And that's a fact. Well, he's a serious guy, right? He's Mr. Action Man.

Yes. We met him the first time today, and we are the first company to meet him from the industry. He is a very action man, and we gave him an alert and -- duly from our side. And he called us back. And he started acting on it. So we will have a very good relationship to bring this project up.

Now one further question. If the ties with A&S Mining are completely severed, can KEFI confirm that relationships built with the government and their individuals are not unduly influenced as a consequence?

Yes. It's A&S' faults in delivering, not perhaps really fault of its own, but it doesn't really have any relevance to our relationships with the government.

And can KEFI give an update on the infrastructure construction being undertaken by the Ethiopian government on roads, et cetera?

The government already funded -- signed the contract with the Chinese company for the power construction and made an advanced payment of $200 million and going to pay the second payment. The Chinese contractors gave a subcontracting for the environmental, social studies and already started working on getting the substation in the power line. And as soon as we are going to resettle the people in January in Tulu Kapi area, they will start working on -- to look at the substation area. On the road project, the government is going in the process of selecting a contractor. They are finishing the design. They are in the process of selecting a contractor. So they have more interested -- infrastructure and government are working on it.

There's a couple of roads involved, too. They have built a road to the new host lands for the resettlement people. And Dr. Kebede is talking about a new road to Tulu Kapi. We want a new all-weather road from the bitumen to the project for operational safety and security and efficiency of fuel and explosive and chemical deliveries and so on. That's why that new road to that.

Now Harry, can you comment on the current political turmoils? Now that the Ethiopian government have announced they've postponed elections -- that the postponed elections will take place in 2021, do KEFI see any issues or complications there?

Politically, I mean, what I see is the city is very much in COVID lockdown. I see the government is very much in rescue mode to rescue sectors that are being damaged by COVID, although more motivation to get this show on the road, palpable motivation, because of the critical need for foreign currency generation and regional employment. I think foreign currency reserves are down to about a month or 1.5 months in the country of imports and serious issues. And in terms of political turmoil, I haven't been for the last 6 months here, and arrived recently. But Dr. Kebede, any comments on the upcoming election?

I mean the government is working hard to calm down most parts of the country, with the upcoming election, which we hope is going to happen in May 2021, as we say. But politically, opposition and the government wanted it to happen, and everybody was not happy for last year's 2020 postponement. So we believe it would be fruitful in most parts. And because everybody wanted it to happen, so we don't see any major disturbance because of the upcoming election.

Yes. There aren't any disturbances that have arisen because of the disappointment that elections couldn't take place. But I think the fact that [indiscernible] et cetera.

Yes. Now previously, the reason why the postponement is because of the central pressures because of the COVID. But most of the opposition in the end was not happy around the postponement because they believed that it should have happened during COVID time. But they don't really have the basic reason, and now the government is deciding to target in 2021. So the opposition and the government are working hand in hand for it to happen. So we don't see any major disturbance because of that.

I think it's an independent election commission that's been established to do it all. So it doesn't seem to be a hotbed than it was before.

Now looking at Tulu Kapi, can you please outline the full ownership percentages for the project? The figures given so far show that KEFI have circa 65% and that local partners will have 6.7%. It'd be nice to have some clarity on the percentage figures for the government, the off-takers and other parties.

Yes. The PowerPoint that we have noted today, we put a little chart in there, which I think is succinct summary answer to that question as anyone could give. And what it shows is that -- it shows that commitments have been made at minimum levels, a minimum commitment of $10 million, a minimum commitment of $20 million, a minimum commitment of $30 million and so on. But until the banks finish their work, which they're clearly doing this month, we can't finish it. And so everybody is just waiting to it. So the total numbers will adjust around that. If you look at that chart, you can see how theoretically KEFI could have well over 70%, but we have to address more from the plc. Our estimate of the scenarios that allow in each sector end up with 65%. But until the banks finish their work, we can't finish off the mix of our cash and equity.

Now I've got a question around the underground mine at Tulu Kapi, whether it will be horizontal or decline access from the side of the open pit?

Well, it will be a decline access from wherever we access it from. There's a bit of a debate about where the access -- best access point would be. But theoretically, the best access point would be -- well, we are not for a couple of years in the constraints of operation. So it may well be that we take the second best ideal access point for the commencement of the decline in order to -- as we're prepared to spend a little bit of extra money, but start earlier and get down there earlier. But these -- all we have is a preliminary economic assessment. We need to do a feasibility study and that hasn't been a priority now. It will be mined. But because our priority has been really to speed the show on the road to the open pit, we haven't spent the money on our feasibility study for the underground that we engineered. And if someone does that and then we'll start hypothesizing as to where could be the access points, and it's just a thumb sucker discussion to do a proper feasibility study.

And another question, how fast will exploration start at the Tulu Kapi license?

I wouldn't -- it's actually at the underground still. What I'd like to do is, obviously, let's just finish off this financing, which is -- we're within the grasp of it. Let's finish it off. Let's take a deep breath, look at ourselves, look where our cost of capital moves at different levels of the structure. If the shares are 5p, I would, without blinking an eye, make a very small placing to keep the whole underground maximum ownership ourselves. Why shouldn't the company do that? That's what it should do. So it's a function of cost of capital versus the value to be created. And I know perhaps retail investors who like to play cat and mouse against the shares don't like to hear that, but it's the truth that we really should be using the cheapest form of capital that's available wherever it comes from to maximize value to shareholders. So I think let's finish this financing, get this show on the road, and then we can finesse how we finance the underground of the proximal areas and believe in itself.

We've had another question on the ongoing relationship with A&S. Can you confirm whether there will be any ongoing relationship now that it appears your partnership has been severed? Are there options for A&S Mining to be involved in the future? Have any discussions taking place as the Tulu Kapi surrounding region is explored?

I really think the commercial and confidence will talk about our relationships with the individuals here in the marketplace. All I can say is that we're here engaging with the whole community. The gentleman next to me and I, between us, represent all of the mining companies in the country. And we're engaging with everybody. So we're here to do business with everybody. But I think honing in on individual personalities or last week's conversations or whatever it is, isn't really for the public domain.

Now the question says -- from a shareholder says that he assumes that the underground mine is valued on the basis of the PEA with further exploration of the deeps to be completed at a later time. Is that correct?

Yes. Yes, we have. All we do is count the resources that have already been drilled. And I must add that the resources that have already been drilled are done to the same density as the open pit. So it's not inferred resource. It's just that we haven't engineered the mine plan. So they can't be turned into resource yet.

A shareholder notes that there is no mention of the satellite deposits, which, based on figures previously disclosed by KEFI, could add significantly to attributable NPV because of the disproportionate addition to free cash flow. Can you comment on that, please?

It's not a regulatory thing. I mean -- sorry, I should rephrase that. It's not permissible in a regulatory set. It's considered beyond the permissible reporting rules, just throwing NPV numbers onto pre-resource mineralization. So in your code language, pre-resource mineralization is purely a prospect. It's not a deposit. When you have established resources through drilling, we can refer to it as a deposit. And then when you got a deposit, you can start hypothesizing the mining approaches and issuing PPAs and scoping studies and preliminary feasibility studies and feasibility studies and so on. So it's not because we don't think that the satellite deposits are not valuable, but -- and they're particularly valuable to someone who's got a plant and an operation nearby, but we certainly don't apply NPVs to them until we've actually established resources at individual deposits.

Now Harry, if we turn to Hawiah. When and what are you expecting the next news to be from Hawiah?

Drill bit will start up there this quarter, as we've said. And they'll be drill bit offshore. And we staggered it. We didn't hit the same structure, the same ore body at depth as we drilled it.

What sort of time line are you looking at for that, Harry?

This quarter.

And if Hawiah is proven to be a financially viable mine, by when do you think it could be producing copper and gold?

Well, I think that -- I think we've already said that some time in 2021, we would aspire to some time in the future run maybe a preliminary feasibility study. It looks like one would expect or wish. I think one can then go into a mining license application phase and full definitive feasibility study. I think the salary regime will go like rapid fire next year. The minister there as well, and I think it will go like rapid fire or something like that, something that can be quick. So I'd be quite surprised if next year's PFS, 2 years later, it'd be -- we'll be having the shot on the ground and start working.

And Harry, how will KEFI fund the acquired Hawiah drilling program?

I'm sorry, that's not on the record, but it's a public-listed company, and it will raise its capital in whatever is the most value accretive method. It depends. It really does depend if the share price is 10p, raising 10 million or 20 million or whatever to go with it, you're doing at the blink of an eye. If the share price is a blockage to raising the capital at that level, then we want to look at other techniques, and it's the same old, same old. But the really important thing, everybody, is that whilst what KEFI's accomplishment despite the historical timetable disappointments, which we all share the disappointment in, we're still here at the sort of hold position in a country, which is pulling out of stocks to make sure we get going. The banks are here to do likewise, and we've signed up everyone we need to do likewise. And we're doing it with a $2,000 or $1,900 gold price instead of having to survive the last few years and walking through death valley to get it to this point at gold prices of $1,200 to $1,300. Now the issue is of financing these sorts of projects going forward is a piece of cake compared to what we've lived through. So it's very difficult to shake off the heritage or the legacy of disappointment. But it will happen. It really will happen. And then there won't be such a sort of obsession about, I've raised $5 million to follow your rights on this project or that. I'll be criticized of me having done so when we go there.

Absolutely. And just in terms of the amount of funds that are required, and our shareholders asked what funds are required to essentially double the Hawiah resource? And in what -- and you've just answered in what time scales, and whether this can actually be accelerated?

I mean if money was no object, if the shareholders wishes to -- wish to deliver to us $20 million, we could muck around quite a lot of things much more quickly. But that's -- I don't think what we're paid to do. So we're just trying to strike the right balance. What I do know is that in anybody's language, the amount of money required to double the Hawiah resource if we had done it the way it has to date, that is peanuts compared to the reward. That's the key point. And when the stock market -- there'll be a day when the penny drops. When the stock market penny drops, perhaps it'll be a lot easier for the company.

Now on the other side of it, another shareholder asks, now with funding set for Tulu Kapi and proceeds finally coming in, say, '20, '23, '24, can you delay the Hawiah project start long enough to actually finance the project yourself?

Well, we don't need to just have cash flow from Tulu Kapi to finance Hawiah, as I just said, that either -- if a project in Hawiah is good enough, we, as the operator, have a fiduciary duty to split it up so that, that subsidiary company does justice to that project. If KEFI and KEFI's shareholders don't value it sufficiently to follow its rights, then KEFI can dilute. That's what our joint venture is. So there's many ways just given the cash. If KEFI and KEFI's shareholders wish to follow its routes, then it should pay out and follow its routes to the previous percentage. But the merits of the project are the merits of the project, and one has to both recommend and commit to what is the appropriate thing to do to add value and adjust the ownership structure of who owns what to accommodate that. I think our partners understand that. They're very patient with us. They carried that project for 2 years, waiting for us to come out of our stock market doldrums. I don't think many people could say that their partnership relationship was such that the partner would do that for them for 2 years. That's what they did because they do value our role and our relationship, and we honor that and respect that. I regret that with A&S, that never worked out, that we could develop a relationship properly, but it didn't work out, and that's the end of it and its history. But we can't have our cake and eat it, although we follow our rights and build a project or we'll let someone else do it. I personally have no doubt that we'll be in there following Hawiah and adding a lot of value through it. And the other things in Saudi Arabia are really quite exciting. The same geology is over here, but there's one difference about the sector. There's no soil produce or people. You can drive in any directions. We usually do not see a tree or a plant and as such. And so some things a lot easier.

So Harry, would you sell Hawiah for a short-term financial gain to shareholders and to finance your other opportunities?

Well, listen, I've said it in so many different ways, Rosie. We will do whatever is the best thing for shareholders. That's what we'll have to do, and that's all I can say. Saying anything more than that is just making things up.

And we've got -- one shareholder writes, this is a little bit of an odd one. Can Harry discuss our Saudi partner company, ARTAR, in relationship to their affiliation with the Saudi royal family, if any? I haven't previously heard it, but on message boards, comments -- commenters continue to state that Harry has said before that ARTAR are partly owned by the royal family, which this shareholder doesn't believe, but wanted to get a comment from you on that, Harry, please.

Yes. I never said that. It's not true.

Thank you for clarifying. If we just move on to COVID-19, a couple of shareholders have had questions around that. Can you comment on any ongoing logistical challenges regarding COVID-19? So a number of face-to-face meetings, which need to be held with people from high-risk countries, Zoom or Teams being utilized, and signatures required, how is this working for you, Harry, with COVID-19?

Well, it's not different to us than anybody else who has to travel and do things. Unless anyone really has to travel, they don't. But all of the directors, all of the senior management of Tulu Kapi are here. And we do what we got to do. And we -- frankly, Dr. Kebede has taken off the mask in homage to the shareholders on this call, but he would ordinarily be wearing a mask even here because I'm not wearing a mask. So we take extreme precautions, and the Ethiopian country takes much better precautions than I've seen in the U.K. I would -- I feel more safe here than I would in the U.K., as simple as that. And just look at the statistics of the cases for pathogen and records have kept right next to many other countries, and you'll see that it's taken very seriously. But essentially, the answer is that it really isn't a short answer. We spend an enormous amount of time planning on all sorts of logistics around everything. There's a the myriad of things happening every day. We had a survey team out at the new host lands just today, marking up for a new sign-up, everything else, logistics associated with it. Everything. We just do that every day.

So Harry, can you also confirm if any planned travel arrangements for the senior team over the next 6 months or so, that would be great.

Could I tell everybody our travel plans, do you say?

Yes. Can you confirm any senior team travel plans over the next 6 months?

No. It's, frankly, quite a ridiculous question. Someone explain to me why the travel plans of the team are relevant or personal. We have people who live in various countries and work in various countries, and we travel as required.

Now Harry, a question on the gold price. Shareholders asked, what do you think the outlook is for the gold price in the next 2 to 5 years?

So I think that COVID has changed it dramatically this year because it's unleashed a printing press that the world has never seen in terms of pump priming all around the world. So I don't pretend to be an economist because I've never seen anything like of it, and I can't see how gold can go down in any sustainable way, even if the vaccine for COVID made -- the vaccine made everybody immune within 6 months, which personally I doubt. But if it did, I just don't see how the damage has been done to the banking system globally and the amount of the money that's been printed globally and all the sector -- industries globally, I just don't see how the gold price can go down sustainably. So I am a gold pool because I've never seen so much money being printed. That's my take on it for this year. I think that when we first did the planning for Tulu Kapi, we've decided to be conservative and assumed that the $1,100 gold or $1,098 gold, for some reason, I never quite understood, in designing the -- deriving current rates for designing the pitch. And I think that during construction, we're going to revisit that because I think that's -- that needs to be revisited. And I'd be more inclined to use the $1,500 gold price or something like that, but we haven't discussed it internally yet. But I'm a gold brewer and I think that, that quoting NPVs at $1,700 I don't believe is foolish. I believe it's an unreasonable number to be predicting that.

Now Harry, a shareholder has asked, have you got anything to give shareholders to get excited about for the future? Your last RNS mentioned 11p, 12p share price. Can you elaborate more on when that will take place?

Well, that is simply delivering production to Tulu Kapi. So I don't know what it takes to make one excited. If you want a promoter waving a wand, a market guy would be pretending to be a promoter. But if you want a tenacious stock, who has got a whole bunch of terribly loyal and hard-working people working as a tight team in a country that's bursting to get going on this sector, that's what you got. And we'll deliver Tulu Kapi, and there's your 11p. That has nothing to do with the extra ounces underground, nothing to do with the satellite deposits, satellite prospects to correct ourselves around Tulu Kapi. It's nothing to do with Saudi Arabia and Hawiah, with the equipment. You can -- I don't know if you've seen a recent research report. We sponsored to get one done, which is embedded. We have a full summary research report right on the company. It's on our website. You should look it up, please, because there's quite a lengthy exercise there done by professional gold analyst in Hong Kong, who is respected internationally by gold investors, long-term investors, that we have opened out trade where people are trying to understand where to make multiples of their value over some years of their investment. You should look that up because that lays it out in that person's language. And I think -- I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think they said large blue sky. In other words, don't get too excited, but just say what if things go reasonably well, what does it look like? It would look like 20p. Well, if 20p is not good enough to get a shareholder interested, then we're not here to promise more.

Now Harry, we're coming up to the hour mark. So we've only got time for a few more questions. A shareholder has asked, Harry, are you going to buy any more shares?

A little bit.

And another...

I'm saving my pennies.

Sorry, what was that, Harry?

I'm saving my pennies.

Another shareholder has asked Harry, firstly, thank you for doing these webinars. Why do you think no other companies do them?

Well, I think the answer is probably self-evident, right? Why put out all the hassle? Just put out your RNSs and make your RNSs speak for themselves. I'd like to think that over time, by treating people as partners and owners rather than distant invisible shareholders, eventually we want to build a relationship with more transparency rather than less. So that's the approach we got to.

Harry, that seems there are no more live questions come through. So I'm now going to hand back to you for any closing remarks.

I'm sorry for the pain that I was carrying today, but I've informed my ministers, if you know what that is. And so I'm sitting here in slight agony. But I mean I really do think that we are in a new chapter in the cycle for gold. We are in a new chapter in the political cycle of the 2 countries we focused on. We are in a new chapter of the stage of the projects that we have. So we're in a significantly more propitious position than we have been for many years. And I know it's frustrating not to trigger the development team, but we're doing whatever we can to make sure we're triggering in January as scheduled, and we're commissioning and growing gold 22, 23 months later. So I think that's a special moment for the company. And you've only met myself and Dr. Kebede today, but there are a lot of people here working out in Tulu Kapi and the new host lands and the government offices and all parts of the operation, working very hard, trying to avoid COVID, trying to avoid COVID delays. And I think they all deserve the pat on the back, and they will have my thanks, be presumptuous enough to thank them on your behalf as well because I think they do deserve that thanks. And whether they slip a week or a month because there's been a road accident or someone's had COVID, I think we shall give them a break because they work very hard, and we're just about there, and we'll do it that way.

Well, Harry, thank you very much. That concludes today's live investor Q&A. Thanks to all who submitted their questions. Have a great day.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.