KEFI Gold and Copper Plc (KEFI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to KEFI Gold and Copper Plc Quarterly Update Investor Presentation. [Operator Instructions] The company may not be in a position to answer every question it received during the meeting itself. However the company will review all questions submitted today and publish responses where it's appropriate to do so. But before we begin, I'd like to make the following part. And now I'd like to hand you over to Harry Anagnostaras-Adams, Executive Chairman. Good morning, to you.

Good morning, everybody. I apologize, my video is off because of my current location, the bandwidth apparently is not quite good enough. I'm on the road and traveling around between locations. Nevertheless, hopefully, you can see the screen with the slides on it. So I had in mind to walk through the first handful of slides. And hopefully, they will answer perhaps some of the more obvious questions given recent transactions. And then we can answer questions. So on the screen, you've got the cover slide is a picture of the Tulu Kapi deposit. It's the hill in the middle. That's 1 million ounces is seen underneath that hill. What you see on the screen is a relatively quiet rural setting, which I suppose belies the publicized situation of Ethiopia generally in the Western Media in particular, over the course of last year and perhaps, in particular, over the course of the last quarter, but I'll come to that shortly. Now the corporate overview is [ preparing ] ahead of a lot of information, I'll try to do it as simply as possible for -- particularly for the people who may be new to the company because I understand there are some people on this call who are new to the company. The company started as a junior explorer and it was listed in 2006. At the end of 2006 is, I think, around GBP 2 million listing of IPO on home. But over time, as it moved into development planning and permitting, pure exploration was replaced by effects of some development and the other things one has to do to get development going on projects. It is now really quite manager of fairly large joint ventures. The scale of the AIM-listed parent doesn't really reflect that as -- but underneath the AIM-listed parent, there are some quite large joint ventures, and we're the manager of them and the shareholder in them. In one, we own a bit over 2/3; in one, we own a bit under 1/3, and we manage both -- both of them. One in Ethiopia, one in Saudi Arabia, and we have a very large collection of local partners. One's the government, in Ethiopia and one's is a very large Fortune 50 family office in Saudi Arabia and the other one. Now the -- of course, when focusing on trying to create value for shares -- for shareholders and on a per share basis, it's a function of the numerator. What does one do with the assets or to the assets and what does one do with the number of shares on issue. And in our case, if you just look at the table at the bottom, I won't go through every particular point here, it will take too long, but I'll just make a couple of highlight points. 18 months ago, the NPV of then only project that raised a dimension from the point of view of putting any sort of intrinsic value numbers on us as compared to subjective assessments of exploration potential. The only one we could do that with at the time was Tulu Kapi. We've had permitted -- had been permitted, have reserves and have completed feasibility study and so on. And it was -- at today's metal prices, we've converted our other projects into today's metal prices, so that one can sort of look at them as a like-for-like and ignoring price effect on what's changed from, say, 2020 to today. The share -- the company at the time had a project which was worth about GBP 114 million to us, to KEFI. Today, we have 3 projects at warrant with these sort of measurements of value because they're all now in advanced development planning stages, all 3 of them. And 3 of them combined, GBP 348 million to KEFI shareholders. So from the point of view of, let's call it the numerator in any value assessment of the company, from a shareholder's viewpoint, it's like the numerator, the value on the top of the equation has about tripled over the last 18 months. And obviously, the number of shares on issue has increased, we'll get to that as we go through. On a per share basis, today, we're at the very, let's call it, highly discounted end of the value spectrum and that one would expect that those values on the stock market appreciate as we move through milestones. And obviously, there are a number of milestones that are quite important for the company, which we'll get to a bit later. What I'll do, I'll point out on this slide. A reasonable turnover, share turnover for a company on AIM. And what else the number of options and warrants on issue is under 10% of the total capital. So it's not really a large sort of swing factor in assessment of values. And the value, what you call it, the volume-weighted price of those options and warrants is several times the share price today. So for them to be exercised, everybody should have done quite well. I won't belabor any of those points any further. I just really wanted to highlight that we've gone from [ one-to-one ] asset company 18 months ago to a three development asset company today. Now Ethiopia, which has been our preoccupation really because it's the first [ cab off ] the rank for us and indeed, the first [ cab off ] the rank for Ethiopia, and we've had quite a number of frustrations and disappointments on the way through that process. But to cut a long story shortly, we have a project which is development [indiscernible], what I would describe as the local scene. And that Ethiopia started changing within 2 years of our entry into the country. Also the better in the long term, a wonderful transformational move towards democracy and the feeling in the country over the majority of the population is overwhelmingly positive and optimistic. But nevertheless, it's been quite a ride, let me put it that way. Nevertheless, the project finance syndicate for this project is $356 million package, of which KEFI only puts up [ less than ] 10% of it. So there's a point to emphasize that KEFI shareholders are actually relying on the support of people who are putting up 96% of the capital. And therefore, as fiduciaries, the company is not at just a, if you like, a fiduciary for KEFI shareholders and an operator of joint ventures, but also fiduciary for the people who are putting out most of the capital. So we have to [ extract ] the correct balance of transparency and honoring our commitments to all these stakeholders. Otherwise, they won't put out an asset capital. The whole syndicate has hung in there with us. They're all African experienced and some of them, particularly Ethiopian experienced. Much more so than, if I may say, the typical KEFI shareholder, who perhaps is new to Ethiopia or perhaps some even new to African mining, I don't know. But nevertheless, they sort of riddle with it and just expected us to manage things carefully and properly and to keep them informed and to press the button when we all are [ at least ] here to go. This is -- last year was quite a climactic year. I think that's obvious to anybody. You've probably seen a fair bit of publicity, I suspect. It actually did come to a bit of a crescendo during the last quarter that we're reporting on here. And the decline, what you call it, the conflict has abated dramatically and the scene is quite set for a ceasefire and deals to get done, but that hasn't been done yet. Okay. I'll keep moving. Sorry, Saudi Arabia. I hope we are now, is, in terms of metal content. It's about double the size of Tulu Kapi. And if we keep drilling because it's still open so this thing will turn out to be a lot bigger. And Jibal Qutman has come back on our radar. It was our first discovery and we were getting very excited about it a few years ago. But what we -- I suppose, diplomatic, we call, [indiscernible] regulatory process at the time sort of stopped us and we felt we better sort of deemphasize the project and not put NPVs on it until we clarify with all those things. But that enrollment in Saudi Arabia is clearly much for the better now. Very pro development and the granting of the Al Godeyer licenses to us next to Hawiah [ endorses ] that we should get our mining license clarified during this year now, 2022 at Jibal Qutman. Over in Saudi, the funding would be a lot simpler in many ways than it is for Ethiopia because Saudi Arabia is very stable, put it that way, but also very, very large, well-capitalized partner. So we're not really being relied on to bring capital to the table. We've just been relied on to bring technical expertise to the table. But to clear about [indiscernible] is probably only 1/3 of the quarter of the total development requirements. So it's a very much more easily digestible, if you like, capital requirements. The development project, Slide 6, we've tabulated them there just for ease of reference, and they're all done at the metal price of 31 December. So that all you're really looking at is what has KEFI done to these assets. It's not what the price of the markets have done to the assets, but what has KEFI done to these assets or what has happened with these assets in KEFI's hands, between the middle of 2020 and the end of '21. Well, on Tulu Kapi, it's gone up in value because we've had to [ recheck ] the financing structure, but we've done so in a way which optimizes the position of KEFI shareholders. And that's increased the value to KEFI. With Hawiah, it's a discovery. So it went from zero to where it is today based on what we've just announced as its resource. And Jibal Qutman, we didn't present NPV because we felt it was misleading to present or promote NPVs when there was a question mark against the license, but now that we've been given a positive encouragement to get into our planning again because that will come through. It should actually be presented again because it's live again. So you can see there from [ 114 ] in 2020 where we've gone to on the [indiscernible] what do you call it, the numerator of asset values. The second last column on that table is what's happened to the shares on issue. And the last column is what happens to the NPV per share. And you can see there that it's just about doubled over an 18-month period and notwithstanding this placing that we just announced that it stays around double what it was 18 months ago just because of the changes in enumerator as well as the denominator. And down below, we still have various assumptions for anyone who wants to be into it. This chart, organization chart, Slide 7 is just summarizing the funding package and how it gets, suppose to, which puts up what. And essentially, if you go right to the very bottom line, it says that as everyone -- as everyone else puts in their designated sums, it leaves about $29 million down in the bottom, if you like for the last brick in the wall. And if one takes into account internal cash generation [indiscernible], then I would leave that $9 million to come in from KEFI. And then if you cast your mind for those of you who are familiar with the placing we just announced, if you, there is a warrant attached, it's quite deliberate. I think it's the first time we've ever issued a warrant with the placing. It's perhaps probably one of the very few times. I've personally been involved with issuing a warrant and option with any capital issue. But we've done it -- we've done it partly really to fit into that box here because everything we do -- everything we do has to keep the syndicate together and has to demonstrate that KEFI will keep up its end, both in terms of providing the human resources and in providing and assuming the capital resources. And that the warrant, on exercise of those warrants, it tips in the amount of money that's not designated to be generated internally. So the way in which that placing was structured was also [indiscernible] look to doing that. Actually, I'll pull up there. I don't -- I'm happy to elaborate on any directors or other things, but I don't want to chew up the whole time on presenting rather than answering questions. So I'll stop there. And hand over to the media to ask any questions.

Harry, thank you very much for the presentation. [Operator Instructions] I just want the company to take a few moments to review those questions. I would like to remind you that recording of this presentation, along with the slide and the published Q&A could be accessed via the investor dashboard. Harry, we received a number of presubmitted questions from investors, and I want to start off the Q&A session with these. The first [ number ] just follows. You pointed to [ Vera ] as a broker, why the change, there are plans to spin off the Saudi assets on to an exchange in the Middle East?

The question about the broker is simply that the person who was heading -- the team that did our work at Brandon Hill switched to [ Vera ]. So we switched with him. That's all it is. There's nothing profound about it, but they're the people who have looked after the company for some years, and we just stuck with them. There is no plan to spin off Saudi assets. I mean we're not close-minded about nothing, but there's no plan to do so.

The following question was broken down into 3 things. The first thing is share issues and the first question asked, what made you change your mind and raised funds before the Tulu Kapi financing completion at the very low price?

Well, essentially, we got snookered, I suppose, you could say, since reported why and how. But the reported kidnapping that with four of our personnel having been taken hostage. That was very uncomfortable. 2 months, they were in captivity. We weren't able to tell publicly what was going on. We had to focus on protecting the people. And it told us we couldn't -- because we couldn't tell publicly what was going on, we couldn't do anything with capital raisings or anything like that. So we sort of stuck -- we were sort of stuck and the financing of Tulu Kapi was stuck, everything was stuck. And we just have to focus exclusively on making sure those people return harmless with conditions meant that we weren't left with the legacy of concern for the future. Now we did handle it as it turns out with hindsight all very well, but we were stuck for some months. And I mean that's essentially it that we had other timing in mind and that kidnapping couldn't have happened at a worst time from the point of view of [indiscernible]. And also going into balance sheet of 31 December, we can all look back what is now and look what's happened in the last month or 2. But back in September, in the middle of the kidnapping and then coming out of it in November, and this, what do you call it, the conflicts in Ethiopia going into sort of a climax. And it was considered prudent to derisk the balance sheet completely and get rid of its liabilities just to protect the company in case something went wrong unexpectedly in Ethiopia. And as it turns out, the conflict -- the war has effectively ended unless something weird happens again, but the war has effectively ended. The conflicts have abated. And that looks like it's turning its corner for us. But of course, that's with hindsight, and we felt we had to take it on the chin and derisk the balance sheet. Now it's all uncomfort to all of us as shareholders to know that it's barely affected the value per share after you take into account that all the value increase we've achieved on the assets but of course, it's -- it took away from most the possibility that we increased the value per share during that period. But I suppose to put a positive spin on it. We protected the project and protected our people and then we protected our balance sheet, and we've protected our value per share through what was a very challenging period.

The next question asked, what is your personal share price expectation at the moment? And when is the first gold being sold?

I think the fairest way to answer about personnel expectations is just to say that when you look at any benchmarking of companies like this is against the development. It's a very strong body of statistical evidence to say that as you come into production, they traded around or a bit better than NPV. If the NPV today is 12p, it will be higher than that when the first one comes into production just because of the passage of time and all the money will have been spent by them. So it will be up in the high teens. And of course, that ignores if the fact that we expect our resources to keep growing and the value to keep increasing. So the best way to answer it is that NPV is what we target and NPV should be bigger than what it is today. The first gold would be around the end of '23 -- 2023 at Tulu Kapi.

Now turning on to the next question. What do you have to say to the long-term shareholders who invest in KEFI after any of your previous presentations and have since seen their holdings value dive without the benefit of lower and lower option and warrant guaranties -- on warrant issue, sorry.

The questions about why can't everybody get warrants and options. Well, the incentive options per se, are obviously for people involved with the management and they're done for specific reasons and under a scheme that's been approved and well publicized in the past and presented to shareholders. And the warrants, as I said earlier, specifically, constructed to bring in capital for the Tulu Kapi financing. They're not just sort of issued as a sort of benefit or something. That's not the way we look at them. They're issued as an instrument to bring in capital at the funding requirement. So we haven't sort of looked at it that way. The question is sort of looking at them as sort of benefits. The incentive options are only worth something if the value of the company is well above where it is today and the warrants only worth something or likewise and also bring in the capital for the development of Tulu Kapi.

Why did you keep diluting the company's share of the Saudi Arabian joint venture when it looks to be a huge opportunity? We are giving away share of billions for the cost [ of trillions ]?

Well, they're in line, it's the dilemma. You can't have a share of something unless you put up some money. And so our job is to find the balance between putting up, asking shareholders of KEFI for capital to keep a share in Saudi Arabia, you sort of can't have it both ways. So what we started is -- the biggest power to put a philosophical policy decision that was made on Saudi Arabia was when we went into it in 2008. And we decided upfront that better to have a minority stake in a giant pie because we were convinced that there would be huge discoveries in Saudi Arabia, and we felt we could ever crack it being one of the ones making those discoveries. And so we took that on the chin upfront. And even though there's been terribly frustrating delays in Saudi Arabia, much worse than in Ethiopia or even [ the landmarks seem ] hard to believe at the moment. But the fact of the matter is that we've allowed ourselves to be dilutive from 40% down to near 30% because we judged at the time that it was appropriate not to ask shareholders for that extra piece of money. But we have to stand our corner going forward because we really don't want to keep diluting for the reason that the question I said. And now that 18 month ago, we didn't have a discovery that was live for development. And today, we have 2. So it's changed the complexion, isn't it? 18 months ago, probably the question wouldn't been asked and today, the question is asked with a benefit of answer. So I agree with the question now that we didn't know that 18 months ago.

Turning to the next question. Do shareholders have to expect another new share placing during 2022, 2023? Was the financing secured yet?

Well, again, I just want to never like to mislead. The fact of the matter is we are an exploration development company. And until there's production cash flows, the only capital that comes into the company itself is from shareholders. And we're fortunate that we have people who advance capital to us to sort of try to optimize that moment so asking capital from shareholders. But at the end of the day, the shareholders have to put up the capital for us to get into production. And the way that I presented with our slides, with our chart, it showed you very clearly what we're aiming to do with Tulu Kapi and the bottom line number of $29 million, of which $9 million to come in from shareholders. if we can achieve that, I mean I think that would be a fantastic achievement. I don't know what the question [ at least], but I think that if someone can achieve that, it would be a fantastic achievement. And that's our objective. And the warrants that was attached to the placing we've announced is designed to bring in that amount of money. So I think that answers the question.

The next question asked about the recent fund raising, why existing investors were not giving the opportunity to avoid dilution with an offer?

Yes. Well, it was a matter of -- that was a great disappointment to me because we really didn't want to do that. And the idea of this thing on primary bid was sort of appealing philosophically to us, but we bumped into the fact that having designed it to have a warrant or a half warrant attached for the reasons I've explained. We then bumped into the fact that the stock exchange doesn't allow a primary bid offering to be made if there's a warrant attached. So [indiscernible] on that. But I certainly not trying to prevent any shareholder participating, but it's very, very difficult to provide retail shareholders as compared to an institutional professional investors as defined by stock exchange to participate in capital raising. But we'll keep trying.

The next question asked, why did the directors consider the granting of warrants over shares that were granted in place of salary to be fair?

Well, I can tell you, the syndicate at least, I'm not sure what the majority of shareholders feel, but the syndicate, I'm pretty -- pretty encouraged and confident by the fact that senior management get paid in shares instead of being paid in cash. And that I will prepare to do that, I feel like put their money where their mouth was. So I won't be granted option warrants in lower salary. The placing terms were defined, as I said earlier, to be -- to close the financing with the market -- the market set terms and to have [indiscernible] Tulu Kapi financing. And the management -- any management that was prepared to take payment in shares and warrants of cash that was just really just accepting whatever the market has dictated the terms to be and it wasn't the management dictating the terms. So, yeah, I think that answers.

That's great. And now turning to the next thing, which deals with Tulu Kapi financing and mining license. We've the first question asked, is Tulu Kapi financing likely to be completed before the state of emergency in Ethiopia, if not that soon enough for the Minister of Mines?

The state of emergency is until May. And it might be worth just explaining what that means to for people who may not be familiar. But what it does is, I mean, I was pleased from the point, I knew [indiscernible] distant observers to hear that there was a state of emergency, but I was one of the people on the ground in Ethiopia for most of last year. I'm sort of staying very close to everything. I was pleased when the state of emergency was declared because what it did was to give certain powers to the government to maintain law and order in a more effective way. And that was a good thing, and it's been declared until May. And you might have noticed that in our announcements, we've said that we expect the closing to be within the window of February to May, targeting March. And because we don't drive these events -- we don't drive the security events that seen around us, we can only drive what we do about them for ourselves. But we've maintained the syndicate and we're focused on that window. So it's not necessarily the state of emergency has to end, but it has -- the whole scene has to turn, keep turning. It's already started to turn for the better so that there's a ceasefire and independent sign-off of securities in order on traffic routes and around the site and insurance -- normal insurance for construction and transport logistics is available. These are the standard procedures and requirements for any project finance transaction. And the minister acknowledges that. You might not see that in these public statements, but privately. This is not unfamiliar with the fact that [indiscernible] to a bank's head and they send in $140 million and all the equity send [indiscernible] $200 million would regard us or whatever is going on around the site, you just can't do that. So what the minister is looking for is not us to have trigger the project by the end of January. He's just looking to make sure our syndicate is in there, is committed, subject to those normal conditions, as I've just stated because that's all he can ask for and that's all he has asked for.

That's great. Moving on to the next question. Is the national security in Ethiopia good enough currently to [ flip ] financial close to happen so that the TK mine project can finally enter development?

Right now, it's not good enough because the conflict has only really just abated if you're following closing enough. You would know that a big pushback of these rebel forces only commenced in November, and it appears to have succeeded by the end of December. And there were some very important diplomatic initiatives done in the last few days around Ethiopia and Christmas, which was only [ few days ] ago. So it's all hot stuff. It's a hot topic. It's certainly looking extremely encouraging. And I know around our new site, around our site, around our people, around various other things, which reinforces and I think it's extremely encouraging. But it has to go from being encouraging to actually settling down into a ceasefire. And what I said earlier, independent sign-off because it's not just our opinion or a government opinion or a minister's opinion, but independent security specialists saying, your [indiscernible] fine, your site is fine, your procedures are fine, and your team is in place. Insurance company's underwriters saying that you can have your construction insurance and logistics insurance at this price now and so on. It's just straight up project finance management and I think that defining the window is February to May is still reasonable. It's what we had in the current circumstances of what we had in our minds and we set that sort of frame lookup for the timetable management, but it has to keep getting there, if you know what I'm trying to say, in order to be ready. It's getting there, but it has to get there.

Next question, we've got for you here, Harry, is the Ministry of Mines given a deadline of the end of January 2022 for the funding of Tulu Kapi mines be signed off. Has this date given by the Ministry of Mines changed with the degree of conflict? Or does it still have to be completed, so the license is not revoked after 31st January, 2022.

Sorry, I left my phone on in case I could dial in by phone but someone kept trying me. I think I've more or less covered that already, but just to make sure that's a very important question. The minister is not expecting financing to be closed at the end of January. He just wants to make sure these banks are -- the banks, in particular, he knows that the rest of the syndicate flows around the banking in particular, the banks are the toughest sort of guys to not -- and so he just want to make sure the banks are still there and without in any way being disrespectful of anyone in the government. They've been under intense pressure. This is the largest export generator plants for the country at the moment. So he's under intense pressure to get this show on the road. But our license is in good standing. It's solid. We've done nothing wrong ever. And whatever the political pressure is, to proceed -- we'll just do the right thing. And the banks have been in the country, explaining exactly what they need to release funds. And I don't believe anybody being unreasonable about it. They have been going there of their own volition, nobody forced them to go there in the middle of all of their comfort, they still went there to explain and give comfort. So I think that the legal position is crystal clear and the political pressure is understandable and our demeanor as a company, I think, is perfectly reasonable. We -- it's not a negotiation. We just have to be disciplined and reasonable about it and explain ourselves to everybody. Unfortunately, some of the messaging has been by Media messaging, which hasn't exactly helped where we're in a position to conduct negotiations or communications by the Media. So that hasn't helped and has confused shareholders, but they are the facts that I'm just saying.

The next question reads as follows. What progress has been made in the last few months regarding project financing? Have you converted the remaining 37% of funding sources that were yet to give conditional approvals?

Yes, they are sitting there. The lead bank has gone through the credit approvals, the support bank has said we'll move when the situation is ready. The lead equity investor has given his additional approval, the support equity business that will move when they're starting off. So they're all basically -- of all hanging there, the question is what progress has been made. We've maintained the syndicate despite a civil war and a kidnapping and that's a critical point, number one. Frankly, if they hadn't been, how to put it, if they've been the [indiscernible] people that we had in place a couple of years ago, they would have probably run through the hills during the last 12 months. But we've got a syndicate. This just stayed -- stayed steady and firm. And so one of the costs of all the chopping and changing of the Ethiopian politics in the last few years has been delays, but one of the benefits has been that we've ended up with a syndicator sort of get it or understand it. And so they will hang in there, which is to me the most important thing. But at the same time, any technical issues, legal due diligence and more importantly, the detailed agreements with -- there's probably about 10 different agreements with different government agencies. And it sounds perhaps hard to believe, but it's incredibly detailed work, and it's the first major development of this nature that the government has done for 30 years. So everything seems to take the government agencies a lot longer because they aren't familiar with it. So we've been nailing those things down, taking the time to do that. Again, very collegiate, very collaborative. But again, we have to be clear that money, people and capital cannot flow unless whole standard conditions are complied with. And it's just unfortunately, the cost of not -- if KEFI shareholders wanted to put out the current [ $50 ] million and not rely on banks and all these risk mitigating measures, then KEFI could have done that. But that's not what we've done. We've set out to raise capital in the classic project financing structure. It's quite normal and we need -- all those seems to be tied down and [indiscernible] the last few months has been concerned. Frankly, we had a big scare. It was a big [indiscernible] to have gone through the last 4, 5 months. And we came out of it all intact and preserving the safety of all our people, no ongoing conditions as a result of the kidnapping, in fact, the kidnappers have since surrendered. And the government, I believe, is understanding that we are serious and just trying to do things properly. And the Saudi side has come through terrifically. As a result of that, we are here to preserve the value on a per share basis, 10 to 15x the current share price. So I have to [indiscernible], but that's what we've achieved in the last few months.

Now turning on to the next thing, which is Saudi Arabia. The first question reads as follows. In August, you mentioned the case for a potential 30,000 ounce heap leach gold operation and we haven't had anything since. How likely this is from interpretation?

Well, that's the Jibal Qutman. That's the Jibal Qutman announcement we've made, which is that -- which is why we brought that project back up onto the center stage along side the other 2, that Jibal Qutman was a string of discoveries and like a string of pearls, a lot of little potential pits. And we stopped at around 730-odd thousand ounces as an maiden resource. And we did some metallurgical testing to confirm we could expect to recover the oxides by our heap leach. And then we submitted the mining license to put our foot on tenure and make sure it's [indiscernible], and that's indeed a secret thing we had done so because we discovered these problems with a tenure and have taken all this time since then to have rectified. So yes, we've announced that, that project is back on the books again and looking pretty positive. And the answer is -- if the question really is, will you develop Jibal Qutman quickly, [indiscernible] quickly. And I think the answer is yes. We would add another team to get that going quickly because it's a relatively small capital investment to get that cash flow going and [indiscernible] proving up that Hawiah now is, a last part of it is now open pitable. It's the same thing. That has the Hawiah economic model, has probably dropped $100 million of its capital requirements to get going because it can get going as an open pit. So whatever prompted that question, I'm all the way with it to get these open pits going quickly.

That was great. The next question we have here relates to Al Godeyer. And if you could give some early indications of the potential for this license.

Well, it's only -- it's 10 or 12 kilometers from Hawiah so it's a satellite deposit in that sense. So the plant can -- it looks the same, the same type of geology mineralogy from little work we've done. We've done quite a lot of surface sampling under reconnaissance license and we've got some good numbers out of all of that, and we can see it's very similar to Hawiah. But we've done the drilling. So whatever I say is highly conjectural. But superficially, there's sort of zero chances not worth something. And there's a high probability that it's sort of a twin or a baby twin or whatever of Hawiah. It's going to add metal to Hawiah. It'll make Hawiah bigger than it otherwise would be. So how big, I don't know, but Hawiah has already sort of doubled. I think we said earlier that a gold ounce equivalent, Tulu Kapi in our model is about 1.2 million ounces and Hawiah is about 2.2 or some other million ounces gold equivalent. It'll be very easy to speculate that it might increase another 50% or double again, who knows. But clearly, Al Godeyer is a very important exploration license for us because it complements and scales up Hawiah. And so Hawiah will keep growing for the foreseeable future and next question.

The next question is in relation to the ARTAR relationship in Saudi. What are their mining ambitions in the region? And how is KEFI's relationship in developing?

Well, we -- well, we've been in the joint venture since 2008, and we know each other very well. Without speaking out at school, I think we're very comfortable with what we're doing as the operating partner. I think there are any concerns would be that, can little KEFI and it's -- and a small listed company on AIM really keep up with a big boys game. That's -- that would be their natural concern. So they want to see KEFI develop and grow and prosper so that KEFI can keep up its end, but not just a little company on AIM that sort of [indiscernible] money together from drill hole to drill hole, like they want to see -- they want to see us develop a multi-mine operation, and we're very comfortable with our management. And I just want to say that this -- the structure via AIM listings is actually feasible to make sure they're comfortable as the partner. But I think as far as the relationship is concerned, there is no problem here at all.

That's great. The final prism of questions asked, what's the minimum share the Saudi Arabian joint venture that you're willing to dilute to fund the drilling?

Well, sort of a company policy, but adjusting my personal view, as I said earlier, we accepted upfront 60-40 with us being 40%. I think I would feel uncomfortable below 30%, and I wish it was still 40%, but I do think that taking all the responsibilities of the operating part and seeing that we've now got assets there that are moving ahead in leaps and bounds at last with the regulatory regime having really turned on to the front foot, a pretty, pretty silly limit to dilute below 30%, but it's the old [indiscernible] again. We, as shareholders, can't expect to keep up unless we put up some money as well. And so we just have to find the right balance, but I wouldn't like to [indiscernible] it.

Thank you very much. As you can see, we have received a number of questions today, and thank you to all the investors who submitted their questions. Could I please ask you to open up Q&A tab, read out the question and give responses where appropriate to do so [indiscernible] at the end.

I'll skip over anyone on any questions that seem to be repeat, so I don't take up everyone's time. One question. Why was the updated MRE for Hawiah issued after -- rather before the recent share pricing? Well, I wish it was issued before, but it wasn't ready before. I wish we had -- I wish we didn't have to have -- we didn't have to have dealt with kidnappings and situation in Ethiopia, but the Board [ felt unbalanced ], that we really didn't need to derisk the balance sheet, as we were saying earlier, but I mean, looking forward, there's some [ constellation ] that the value per share hasn't really gone down just because of what's happened to the assets and the value of Hawiah and our growth on these assets generally will continue so it should actually start going up further. But the main point today, frankly, isn't the dilution from [ GBP ] 0.13 per share to [ GBP ] 0.12 per share, that's really almost immaterial. The real question to an investor today is should one buy shares at [ GBP ] 0.8 when the NPV is [ GBP ] 12. That's the real question. No, whether it's gone from [ GBP ] 13 to [ GBP ] 12, it's on my side. Another question is, why is Tulu Kapi commissioning now [ '24 ]. Well, it's a 2-year thing. It's a 2-year build. It's as simple as that you start today, it's 2 years, 2 years of production. So we'll have started commissioning at the end of '23. And the construction people are incentivized to do it earlier, but it's not reasonable to assume that it will be achieved, that's a 2-year build. Another question is, do you plan to fund Jibal and Hawiah via another large share placement at the end of next year? It's another question saying, can you build these mines please, but don't raise any money basically is what you're asking, I think the -- there's a fundamental problem here. I know it's terribly disappointing. And I'm the first one to be disappointed and [ what possibly ] had disappointed my family is that basically, we've just seen anything that all my time for the last 6 years since I came as an executive. It's just been based on KEFI. And they're sitting in other countries and never see me. And so it's the frustration by the executive is whether you believe it or not is [indiscernible] a lot higher than the frustration of shareholders. But we just -- we're managers who will just keep putting runs on the board as best we can of building value, which we've talked about today, withstanding civil wars, which we've talked about today. We are in frontier markets, which have issues and talked about that today. And then so far as raising capital, to go into mining, if the equation ahead of us for Saudi Arabia is not palatable to KEFI, then we should get out of the industry because the Hawiah and Jibal Qutman joint venture relationship is such that joint venture partner is completely reliable to put up its 70-odd percent. And the [indiscernible] rate of debt capital in the country of Saudi Arabia to put up at 75% or whatever of the total project cost. So KEFI will have to put up 30% or 25%. Now KEFI -- If KEFI is not prepared to put up 25% or 30% of capital to develop a mine that [ it's been used ] to discover then we really shouldn't be in this industry. And you can criticize management for maybe not promoting more or promoting better or whatever. But the fundamental decision of a company to go into exploration and development is to find things and as we develop them or you can sell them to someone else who can develop them. And then while we set up this structure, we should be capable of developing them to reap the rewards for the shareholders. But what really needs to happen is to close the gap between the share price and these NPVs. It's not -- the financing itself is the problem. Otherwise, we shouldn't be in the industry. As I say, for -- I haven't checked the numbers of the question as quoted here, but work it out. If Jibal -- if Hawiah has come down to $160-odd-million, say, and work out 30% or 25% of that is -- if we can't put up about 20 -- 30% or 25% of $160 million to develop Hawiah, well then we should give it away, quit the game away. It's just [indiscernible] it would be ridiculous, I think. Probably not the answer you'd like to hear, but that's what I believe. The question is, with Hawiah now being proven to be an economic deposit, why have you now decided to continue to drill? It is now looking like Hawiah is delayed by more than a year, why keep drilling? That's not true. We only discovered it and we just declared a maiden resource in August 2020, I think. This is as fast as it gets in the mining sector. I absolutely guarantee you. We're looking to submit a mining license during 2022, and you have to keep drilling to upgrade it to a reserve category. We've got an indicated resource now in past for this, which is great. But we have to keep drilling to infill it out to get it up to indicated [ maiden reserves ] for the lot. So there's a sequence here and a fast track is what we're targeting, and the fast track is that we will be developing this around the time Tulu Kapi starts. And that's a pretty fast track [indiscernible] a discovery in 2020 to start up of development within 4 years and then being, what do you call it, production within 18 months of that, it's a pretty fast track. So I can see the time slipping by and it's another question from the same person. The same -- let's have some 3 more questions. I'll just -- I'll go back and if I can, but I'll just so that anyone else has asked. What's been put in place to avoid any more kidnapping of any more employees? It's not -- I mean I can only be generic about it. But all I can say is that they're released unharmed with the only condition being we didn't name the kidnappers and the kidnappers were since surrendered and there's been a -- the upgrading of security protocols and systems and teams for that was planned with project launch and the people that were kidnapped were part of the inspection teams [ and we are ] planning all of that. And unfortunately, they got kidnapped. And so we've had to bring forward a whole bunch of things that would have been launched at project launch to make sure that it doesn't happen, whether there's a project launch or not, but that we've done all of that. But I have to leave it fairly generically to security reasons. The next question is the PFS data for Hawiah has lived from H1 '22 to H2 '22 in November zone. It's the long question. Given your current business planner being the explorer and not a producer? We're not an explorer rather than a producer. The company was launched as an exploration company. The exploration team leader stepped down to allow it to go into the development and financing. He's still around to advise, but he stepped down 6 years ago, so we go into development and permitting and financing. So we're not aiming to be an explorer, but quite the contrary. If you look at the -- see this, if you like of the people on the board, it's in that slide show and the people in the senior executive, they're not the classic explorers, the classic builder operators. And so all I can say is that the average in the world, globally of -- from the first successful discovery hole to production, used to be about 15 years. But today, I'm told it's crept up to around 20 years, but I haven't seen the stats myself. So -- and it's usually because of things not to do with technical stuff, let's usually do with things like we've been dealing with. And even in Australia now, it can take longer than Ethiopia or Saudi Arabia, even though it's such a mature mining jurisdiction, but now getting exploration permits around the environmental side and -- development permits side and the environmental side in Australia can take 5 to 6 years. So our time lines are not driven by being an explorer and wanting to carry on exploring. Our time lines are driven by wanting to get into production as soon as possible. And as simple as it is, we're trying to get into production as soon as possible. We don't want to be an explorer. We want to be a profit maker. And in the slide show today, we summarize that we see ourselves as $200 million EBITDA within a few years, based on about [ half ] from Ethiopia and [ half ] from Saudi Arabia. We've laid it out in the quarterly and today's presentation. That's how we see ourselves as the operator of production units with a pipeline of exploration around them. There's some questions questioning that CapEx has gone down at Hawiah. We used to say, 220, now we're saying lower. It's because of the open pit, we used to say but don't hold us to this because we only just published an upgraded resource days ago. So we haven't actually done all these numbers carefully enough yet to be held to account on CapEx estimates until we do the work properly. But clearly, by starting with an open pit, we can pull the CapEx down in Hawiah to get going with and do the rest of it during production from the open pit. So that's what we're doing. At KEFI, ARTAR [indiscernible] and generating revenues [ imperative ] for the Hawiah mine being funded and built? I would never say that it's superior. Is it? ARTAR knows about us very well. As I say, we've been partners for -- since 2008. They selected KEFI from a beauty parade of a lot of other companies. Right now, exactly what we're up to, but we would never stand in the way of development in Saudi Arabia for the sake of development in Ethiopia. We will do whatever each of these projects wants. When are you selling off something like -- this one says answer the question, Harry. And the question is, when are you selling off something like Hawiah? Well, I don't plan to so I'm not sure why that's the [indiscernible] question. This gentleman is saying it will deliver more shareholder value? So I think these people are saying, discover things and sell them. We're not interested in developing I suppose is what these people are saying. Well, that's a matter of conjecture and opinion. Those 2 or 3 last questions on my list here were really from people who just want us to sell something to make some money quickly and never have to raise money again, I think, is where they're coming from. I think I've answered all the questions I see in front of me.

Thanks, Harry. You've been very generous. I think you've addressed all the questions you can. And of course, the company will review all of the questions submitted today. Just before redirecting investors to provide you with their feedback, which I know is particularly important for the company. Can I ask for a few closing comments?

Well, I think that it's -- I don't want to dramatize, I suppose, what the company has been through the last 4 or 5 months, but it was quite testing. And maybe it's some comfort to shareholders to realize that the -- not only with the syndicate of partners in Saudi Arabia and Ethiopia and bankers who deal with this around Ethiopia and contractors. Not only were they, let's say, at ease with our handling of the circumstances, but they were comforted on our disciplined approach. I think it's important to say that the shareholders. I know it's frustrating that there were delays again. But I think it's also important to realize that when you're putting people and hundreds of millions of dollars of capital to work, it has to be got right to allow those things to flow. And I think we -- from a point of view of measuring up as a group -- as a company to develop a number of mines, we stood the test of that crisis management with one of a better expression. Secondly, I would say that the Ethiopian situation has turned. I personally was really quite shocked at the Western coverage, Western Media coverage of Ethiopian conflict. I was staggered. I was in Ethiopia for most of last year, watching that coverage and looking around me, what was going on internally. And I'm very, very personally very supportive of Ethiopian people wanting democracy and not running single ethnic group to rule the country. It staggered really the way international politics was beating country up. And I'm really pleased personally, I probably shouldn't say politically motivated, I'm not motivated politically, but make political commentary. But I'm really pleased that the country has preserved with its sovereignty and it's -- and the people are winning. The democracy is winning, which I think is fantastic, and it's calm down. And I think it will go like a rocket -- and it will settle down very quickly, I believe, now. And Ethiopia has been in the top 10 [ growth ] countries of the world until last year for 20 years running. So I believe it will go like a rocket again and once to get all this -- this 2021 period quite quickly, I hope. So I feel very optimistic about Ethiopia now. And 2 years ago, we didn't have a discovery -- we had 1 discovery in Saudi Arabia, and there was a dormant thing because licensing was stuck. And today, it's the best [indiscernible] and everyone wants us to drop Ethiopia and get on to Saudi Arabia. So [indiscernible] might be the opposite. I don't know. But if you're dealing in frontier markets, unfortunately, it's testing at times. And one of them is shoot ahead and the other one will fall behind and so on and so forth. So I personally would think that if we can set this company up to prosper in the Arabian-Nubian Shield with strong foundations with a foot in at least 2 jurisdictions that cover each other and support each other, I think it will be a much more powerful company. But we may well sell something here or there, I don't know. But it depends on the opportunities and our partners are commercially minded. But at the moment, there's so much value to be built in these projects. We just put our noses to the wheel. So I feel -- I feel that we've had a tough time the last year in particular, shareholders and the company as a whole and I feel that we are a much stronger company now and probably cheaper than we've ever been from a point of view of someone who looks at the shares. But I hope that's useful. Thank you.

Harry, thank you again for updating investors today. Can I please ask investors not to close the session as you'll now be automatically redirected to provide your feedback in order that the management team can better understand your views and expectations. This might take a few moments to complete, and I'm sure will be greatly valued by the company. On behalf of the management team of KEFI Gold and Copper Plc, we'd like to thank you for attending today's presentation, and good morning to you all.