KEFI Gold and Copper Plc (KEFI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the KEFI Gold and Copper plc Investor Presentation. [Operator Instructions] Before we begin, I would like to submit the following poll. And if you could give that your kind attention, I'm sure the company would be most grateful. I'd now like to hand over to CEO and Executive Chair Harry Anagnostaras-Adams.

Thank you, Marc. First of all, let me open by firstly thanking attendance, but also just highlighting a little bit I'm mindful that there are some people on this webinar who aren't familiar with the company, I've been asked to participating in a mining investment forum in a week's time. And I know there's quite a few people from that who will be watching this. But on the other hand, I'm also well aware that there are some people who are speaking in all the detail and background of the company. And therefore, I apologize to those for whom I go into too much detail. And in a sense, the opposite for those for whom I don't go into enough detail. Without further ado, let me say that I'll give a brief presentation. I'd like to walk through the whole slide show. But before -- just before this webinar, we released our quarterly report, and we released an attaching slide show, both on our website, I won't go through the whole slide show. I'll just go through the introductory part to it and just highlight the things that I think existing shareholders perhaps would like me to highlight. And then we'll have the question and answer. There were a few submitted already. I'll answer some and Eddy Solbrandt, the Chief Operating Officer, will answer some. Okay, so back to the presentation. On the screen is Tulu Kapi, the gold deposit is that hill. On that Hill is our camp, it's been there over 15 years, serene, beautiful countryside, never have any of the people out there been hurt by any of these highly publicized or at least recently highly publicized security concerns and incidents in the country. It is just a quiet place. Having said that, it changed a lot since we arrived, and we took over the site 8 years ago ourselves. And the move to democracy has unleashed various destabilizing forces that are coming right down again now. But probably, you're all aware that there's a highly publicized conflict and instability over the last couple of years, which, as I say, is coming down rapidly now. Disclaimer, most people don't even read it, but I'll just highlight the fact that when we make predictions, we're not making promises. We can't give guarantees. We don't have a crystal ball. And I suppose we've shown that by our experience and by the surprises we've suffered in these frontier markets -- the disclaimer actually does have a meaning and therefore, I do remind people that are there for a purpose. I won't dwell on everything other than to make a couple of points on each slide as we go through. We were formed as a junior exploration company in 2006. It was, I think, a GBP 2 million float. We have excellent prospectus out there from day 1, getting us focused in on various parts of a region we really wanted to attack, so to speak, on a geological exploration viewpoint. And about 8 years ago, we moved into a whole development planning phase, and we started to replace the team -- complement the team with people who are developer operators, not only explorers. And the short of it is that we have made a couple of significant discoveries despite the geopolitical turbulence that we've contended with in our frontier markets. We've worked our way through that, and we've made a couple of significant discoveries, and we've made an acquisition, which we then fixed up. So we've achieved a lot in a mining fundamental development planning sense. But the big change over the last year is that the political and regulatory environment in our 2 frontier markets, Saudi Arabia and Ethiopia have changed for the better markedly, which means that we're now able to move very quickly compared to what we're able to do previously. It's not a secret, but the area is prospective. There are many companies that have come in, not many of them able to move quite quickly enough in Ethiopia in particular. But they're all there and interested, including the world's 2 largest gold producers, Barrick and Newmont. We happen to have the first major development to go in Ethiopia, and the next 2 developments to go in Saudi Arabia. So whilst it may have been frustrating and tough at many times over the 16 years, as it turns out, we're in, if you like, a pole position in both countries today. Now this colorful slide, it doesn't need to be dwelled on. It is just trying to make a couple of simple points that I will explain. On the top is a set of lines that reflect what happened at Tulu Kapi. Why did it take so long? The next step down is what happened at Jibal Qutman. Why did it take so long? And the third step down is with hindsight, really what should they have taken if we weren't held up artificially, if you like, by systems that weren't ready for us. Up in Tulu Kapi, up in Ethiopia, the longest bar -- the light blue line doesn't even exist in the Saudi line. That is changing regulations that allow financing to take place in the modern sense. Ethiopia is a closed economy, the capital controls, no foreign banks, regulated interest rates. And so we've had to change all sorts of things through consultation and convincing the authorities to allow money finance to proceed. Saudi Arabia has an internationally open market with a large capital providers within the country. Another thing I'd point out is that dark green and lighter green shading bars up in Ethiopia doesn't exist in Saudi Arabia either. That's the need to move a community, and issues to do with security at the site. Those problems don't prevail there in Saudi. On the other hand, there's a very long middle blue bar in Saudi that doesn't exist than for a one little short bar in Ethiopia. And that is the approval of a mining license has taken 8 years in Saudi Arabia. That is just rewritten their regulations, partly around the problem they created for us and for themselves around us. But coincidentally, they're [indiscernible] for different reasons, but I suppose, roughly the same amount of time. And looking back now, it's all spilt milk, but it should be said and be open about it. If both regimes and regulations were then what they are now, we have been in production in both 4 or 5 years ago. Now looking forward, the top is Tulu Kapi. The middle is Jibal Qutman, similar-sized project in Saudi Arabia, and the bottom is Hawiah, a bigger project in Saudi Arabia. And we're looking to start Tulu Kapi shortly and within 6 months or so Jibal Qutman. And then when those two up into steady state production, to trigger construction of the third one, which is a bigger beast. They're all opening resources that will grow, but we're starting with the 2 simpler projects, whilst we put our arms around and settle down the drilling and definition of the scale of the third one. Between them all, you're looking at in gold equivalent terms, about 400,000 ounces a year of production. So this is a company that started as a GBP 2 million exploration IPO that's now on track towards becoming a mid-tier producer and obviously, a completely different ball game of cash flows and balance sheet and so on. Now what does that mean in values and what are we striving to achieve here? The bar on the very left is the market capitalization of KEFI today. And all the other bars are to do with NPVs or net present values. The blue ones are of the individual projects or interest therein and the red one is of the aggregate of the 3 individual projects, our interest there in. And I mean, net present value is just a theoretical calculation, it will be based on fact and real data, but it's only an estimate and a projection. Now what does the real world actually value companies at. And it's fair to say that before they're in production, NPV is the most typical measuring stick of value. And as one derisks from being unfinanced through construction on schedule through getting into production, the discount between market capitalization and full valuation erodes and works its way away and you become more fully valued. The first set of NPV is of the project today. And the second set is as they would be at the beginning of '25 when you start in production in two and you are about to start construction in one . So that's what happens to the underlying value just based on the NPV stock calculation. Now that's not the only way to calculate values. And a professional analyst who does this full time as databases of stocks like these coming out of these years, ask these people to without the African developers and rate them vis-a-vis KEFI on three scores. The top left-hand bars on one score. The top right-hand bar on another score. The top left-hand bar on another score. The bottom line is that if you then compare the 3, what does it mean for KEFI shareholders actually quite remarkably similar. I suppose is why they use those 3 measures, they tend to cross-check each other and they seem to mirror each other a fair bit. So I won't dwell on that, but it's just, I suppose, a measuring stick of where we're heading or where we're aspiring to it. The bottom right has nothing to do with value. It's just what's the grade of this thing of the first project into a KEFI. It's a high-grade open pit at over 2 grams. It's a high-grade underground over 5 grams, and it ranks in the better half, if you like, of the grades of mines in Africa and probably internationally, which is a good thing. Now financing. Most of the questions we received before the webinar were about the financing of Tulu Kapi and how and when and details and that sort of thing being embedded in the questioning. And this chart might look very busy, but it's worth explaining in a couple of minutes. And I'll elaborate much more on the financing in a moment, but just to paint a picture literally for a moment. The 3 boxes on the left at the bottom on the left, Saudi Arabia, a partner providing equity, a development fund, providing debt, both of them in the country, both of them well obviously familiar with their own country, and both of them see us as the technical experts who bring mining skills to the scene. Turning straightforward. We don't have to go looking for banks to bring to the country, we don't have to go looking for investors to bring to the country. We just have to deliver the operational expertise for planning, development, production. Now the other boxes are all to do with to do to with -- nearly all to do with Tulu Kapi and the Ethiopia. And that is that we bring banks, we bring contractors, we bring equity partners to the country. All the darker blue boxes are our companies and inside those companies, there are partnership boards and committees of different stakeholders in Saudi Arabia, the Al Rashid family on the Board as a controlling shareholder. We propose and we operate with Al Rashid as controlling shareholder. Over in Ethiopia, we are the major shareholder. And the government, our partner, looks to us to bring the capital and human resources that are required by the project. Now those gray boxes are basically the parties that are sitting around waiting today for the final plan to be signed off, and I'll come back to that. So we've got a whole syndicate in place. And the last bit of adjusting between the parties or the contributions and the pricing is in the gray boxes, so that we can flow once the banks set down the ground rules, they're the boss, if you like, the same as the lenders. There's only one unusual thing on this chart, and that is -- that is that on the top right-hand corner, there are entities that invest in the Ethiopian holding company, KEFI Ethiopia, down below in the subsidiary and the project. And then 1 day, 3 years, hence, at the then market prices, they convert through KEFI into stock. We've got special dispensation to do that from the government. And that allows them to eventually get their capital out of the country in the meantime to support industrial development. And it's good for us because it's not dilutive in today's terms. It comes out in the values down there when we're in production. I'll come back to financing later. There's a couple of slides on security. I will hand over to Eddy, please? You there Eddy?

Yes, thanks Harry, just had to unmute myself. Security in the country, as you can see from this map is settling down. We've built some very robust systems and processes, wrapped in some policies in order to move people and goods around the country. If you know Ethiopia, you can see this map. There's a port called Djibouti on your right and the road is up to and a little bit beyond a place called Nekemte, which is 100 kilometers from our site, is all green, so it's a low-risk environment. As we get past the Nekemte and go further west towards [indiscernible] and then into [indiscernible], it becomes a little more precarious, and we have different protocols that we put into place to ensure the safety of our people and security of the assets that we may be transporting. We've road tested these systems now for the last 12 months. And in fact, we're so confident that our CEO in Tulu Kapi -- sorry, in Ethiopia has gone to the camp site and we'll be going on to some of the surrounding towns to engage with the community, local authorities around the relocation that we're doing. Now if I go to the next slide, if we put Ethiopia into context in terms of risk -- okay, sorry. If we look at this map on the left, we've got Ethiopia. We've got Burkina Faso, which is all a red zone. There are mines operating, not only gem mines but gold mines operating there. We look at Mali, it's largely red and orange. We look at Egypt a little bit better, also in green strips, but also a lot of orange in there to proceed with caution. And perhaps the most salient, I guess, in terms of size and population base is Nigeria. Now the difference between Nigeria and Ethiopia is a lot of the problems in Nigeria have been manifesting and festering for decades now. They're old, old problems that won't go away. Ethiopia's problems, if you will, young democracies problems, new government, new regimes, old regime has broken down and areas where there's disgruntlement, power vacuums and so on and so forth. Several years ago that country of Ethiopia was all green. During the Tigray crisis, it was largely red. And as you can see now, and this is reasonably recent data from the FCDO, it's certainly down quite a bit. As I said, so much so that our CEO is now traveling out to the mine site, the villages around there with precautions, ensuring that we're doing this safely, but we are quietly optimistic that this will get better. And if it stays the same, we're still confident that we can get people and equipment as required safely to site. That's pretty much it on security for me, Harry, I'll just pass to you.

The only thing I'd add to that is that as things go forward, we have 1,000 employees and 5,000 to 10,000 indirect employees. And it's an engine of economic development for the region, this project once it's going. We have an airstrip on site, infrastructure in place. Essentially, the situation today will be a figment of history because the whole district out there will be intertwined with our operation via most effective ambassadors and protectors. Now milestones looking forward, essentially, having spent GBP 90 million in 16 years to assemble these projects to worth GBP 200 to GBP 400 million, depending upon how far ahead you look, and not assuming any growth in resources are taking them as their resources stood last year. Obviously, the market cap is only a fraction of all those numbers. So, it's got a long way to go to reflect anything like that. But therein I suppose lies the opportunity for anybody who does want to consider getting involved at the company at this juncture as it's about to trigger to what I think are very important inflection points being the triggering of Tulu Kapi development, followed by the triggering of Jibal Qutman development, as outlined earlier on that bar chart of showing the 2 progressing, and then the third project coming on. This is a very unusual situation to have a company that after 16 years of hard slog, actually, it looks set out to trigger two developments and then a third one. And in the space of only a few years to go from the situation that it was in as a junior explorer to being what is, I suppose, colloquially referred to in the industry as a mid-tier producer. We are very unusual -- nowhere of any company. I mean, I've been in this industry decades. So I just can't think of one did quite this before. I'm sure they were, but I'm not aware of them. As I said, I'll pick up on the financing and go through some details here, which has been asked of us when we start the Q&A. But in the meantime, rather than dwell on talking of hand back to the organizers, so we can go into the Q&A.

[Operator Instructions] Just situated on the right-hand corner of the screen, but just let Harry and Eddy take a few minutes to review your questions submitted already. I'd like to remind you recording this presentation along with a copy of the slides and the published Q&A will be accessible by your investment company dashboard. As I did mention at the outset, we did receive a number of pre-submitted questions, and they did fall into a number of categories. And Harry, I know you took the time to try and put those into as many as we could. And I'm sure there might be some duplications looking through the live questions as well. But Harry, if I may, can I just hand back to you and maybe if you could ask you to read out the questions and give a response and then I'll pick up from you as time permits.

Well, the most -- the biggest set of questions was all about, can you please fill out details of the financing? How does it work exactly? Timing and drawdowns and conditions and all that stuff. And I apologize if my answer seems [indiscernible] to those familiar with this sort of project financing. But I'd like to go into more detail than perhaps what we have before. And first of all, we had signed a term sheet with the banks in 2019. We were lining up to get going. The due diligence was in full year. And then things in Ethiopia started to play up a little bit as we've all seen. That exercise of due diligence for an African Development Bank in an emerging mining frontier took a couple of years. And to cut the long story short, various experts were brought into to check, clip and adjust and so on to make the banks comfortable wherever they felt appropriate. But by and large, it all stood tall and we had term sheets in 2019. Getting ready to launch in 2020. Now as you may recall last year, there was quite a lot of publicity about the in-country disputes and civil unrest and a war in the north of the country. And it was parked essentially, it was suspected. There was at the moment to trigger. In May this year, we reassembled as a syndicate and decided, let's get things ready -- to go again as the country was calming down sufficiently. We knew it would take some time to work through all the various aspects of putting all the financing into place. And then we thought we should get going, which we did. In June, an umbrella agreement was signed. We're setting out basically who's doing what within the syndicate and sitting at the sequence and sitting at the process that we'll have to abide by. In July, August we had to re-tender to get oil prices up to date. I think most people would know there's been cost inflation around the world for a number of reasons. And bearing in mind that we have a fixed price lump sum engineering and procurement contract on the plant. And clearly, engineers will not sign a fixed price lump sum without having the prices up to date. And we did all that, we adjusted all the numbers, we reported it publicly, and we recirculated an updated finance plan on what we would like. And that's doing the rounds, if you like, within the banks. At the same time, whilst it's not proper or permissible for us to talk out of school about the business between the other parties, particularly the banks and the government, there were some issues between the bank and the government. We did publicly allude repeatedly to the fact that both the 2 banks required engagements and permission to deal on the same terms. And that problem or obstacle only went away in the last week or 2 and I think we announced that as well. New government policies were set up with us for us on international clearing accounts and market-based interest rates and so on. Now -- as I said earlier, as we announced that having circulated to the banks, the update to all of them, but particularly the banks are the ones that have to go first, they are the boss really. The updated finance plan against all the costings, we await for them to come back with approval thereof. And it's not in KEFI's shareholders' interest really to how would I put it, to preempt them in any way. We won't -- having KEFI shareholders having sponsored for so many years, so much capital into exploration and development and our predecessors before us are now actually proposing that the syndicate provides all the development funding of this whole project. It's in our interest to allow them to work through that obviously. And first cab off the rank will be the banks. There are large regional investors, equity investors at the table, in part of all the syndicate meetings every week or 2. So everybody is waiting to go forward. The regional investors, some of them are very keen to invest because it takes the local currency sitting in Ethiopia and deploys it into a hard currency asset in effect. And as I said earlier, some of them have a special dispensation to convert into KEFI stock 3 years hence. So this commitment or this syndicate is essentially answering the question, how does one that starts a GBP 2 million company that's now a GBP 20 million company that has 3 projects to develop -- how does one have first 2 banks, first 2 contractors, first-tier investors effectively put up the money. The alternative is a large company, we just put it up itself, perhaps most of them will go through project financing I dare say. But that's the cost of the complexity is its complexity. The reward of the complexity is it's a highly risk structured venture with the capital being provided by experts that support the junior explorer that's transforming itself. The companies are our first here. They're all very solid names. They don't want their names bandied around until closing. As usual in any country when you're about to launch such an important project, you get all sorts of interference and characters turn up to try to have a piece of it. And so nobody wants noise or interference until it's all closed, nice and calmy and that's what we're doing. We have, in effect, circulated the finance plan that covers over 90% of the funds for the whole package. And then when the banks sharpen their pencils have come back to us, that is just sort of message that their next meeting is on Friday. We'll adjust the allocations and make up the last 10% once we know exactly what we're dealing with. The sequencing is that we all have to be clear what the full package is. It has to be announced and disseminated publicly so that our share market, shareholders can also understand it. Obviously, the share market can't price it, unless you can understand it and be fully informed. So at the moment, we're just working through that process. And the next step is December -- sorry, November 15 for the sign off of the finance plan and then we proceed by the end of the year to launch with a full sign up of all the conditions having been satisfied or very little left. In terms of sequencing of money, the equity will always go first. Any residual component that we choose to put in is KEFI will be only after the market has been fully informed and fully digested. We announced everything in the proper way. And then -- and our current investors will put money alongside us at the same time being released out of escrow accounts, and the debt will come later. The subordinated debt won't be needed for 12 months and the senior debt probably for 18 months. But that sort of sequence is the way we'll run out. I hope that was of some value, I'm sorry, I took a few minutes. The second question is -- it's the second most popular question let me put that way. When does -- when does KEFI itself need more cash to raise? And how can it be accessed? And does it get any money back from all the other investors and loans? There is -- in terms of the last bit of that question, there is a possibility that there'll be some refunds of shareholder loans, but that will be subordinated to all the other project requirements. But that's tweaking, if you like, that will do between now and the funds flow. But putting that aside and coming back to the first question, since -- and many of the questions that were extending to us referred to the auditor's report and what it is saying there's a going concern matter. But the company doesn't have a cash flow. It's been listed as an explorer that raises money regularly from shareholders to spend. And that audit report, it's not a qualification. It's called a material adverse or something other matter, material matter. We're stating the fact that the company relies on capital to continue its activities pending the start of its cash flow. That order wording has been there since 2006. And since 2006, the company has raised equity capital from time to time and forestall that process by using short-term advances typically unsecured, waiting for a particular milestone to occur before we do raise any capital. Obviously, the key milestone now is the closing of Tulu Kapi, which is so close now that we don't plan to make any public raising pending that proceeding. And we have the access to go and get some short-term advantage if we need to, sort of drag it out for a month or 2 months, 3 months, whatever, but we've been doing this since 2006. The auditors have been using the same word since 2006. And frankly, the risks that we've worked through over the past 16 years are a far, far more challenging risk than what we're dealing with today with such a close really to triggering development and with so many strong allies, partners and bankers rolling up their sleeves to do it with us. Next question is with the price of gold generally rising over recent times, in simple terms, how do you account for the decline in company shares.

Harry, do you mind if I answer that one?

Yes, yes.

It's a tricky question because it asks for a simple response, but it's actually a complex question. What affects the share price amongst the multitude of things is consumer investor sentiment. Whether somebody wants to be in or out of the sector, portfolio rebalancing, the AIM is down 40% now as the most markets are, are we in a bull market, is it risk on or is it risk off again. There are an enormous amount of factors that affect our share price including day speculators and traders, no simple answer to that. But gold mining companies don't necessarily have a share price that correlates with the price of gold. And you can look at larger companies like AngloGold Ashanti or Barrick or others that from time to time just work asynchronously. That's a matter of markets. And if we all understood markets, very, very thoroughly, I suppose there could be a correlation. But at the moment, it's an imperfect science or a black art depending on how you want to look at it. The next question that has risen is has the security situation along transportation routes improved and will current environment allow for timely development of Tulu Kapi? As I said earlier, the region from Djibouti going west through to the Nekemte is all green, and transport is flowing and has been for quite some time now uninterrupted. Those routes are typically unaffected by the problems in the North and down in the West, and it's a free corridor. There are the usual risks on any road, traffic risks that one has to anticipate but can't always mitigate, they are random acts. But generally, transportation is good until we get to Nekemte and just after Nekemte. In those orange zones and patches of red, we have safety and security protocols in place to ensure that we can move forward. Will the current environment allow for timely development of Tulu Kapi? We believe that what we have in place will allow for timely development of Tulu Kapi as we stand now. What we can't do is foresee the future. Our view is that it will quieten down and become better. But we've been surprised in the past and I've been wrong in the past and we could be wrong again. But as it stands now, we believe that, yes, we can develop Tulu Kapi the way that it meets the schedules. And just not forget Harry mentioned this earlier, as more activity happens on the ground, we're trying the process of moving some of the early project affected families from land. It's a particular piece that we're using as a trial to move forward for the other 1,500 landholders. As those things become real, communities tend to gather around you and look after you in these environments. They give you early warning. They let you know if you're overstepping and we listen to them quite carefully in that respect. And that's another key aspect of our community relations, which also leads me to believe that we can deliver this reasonably on time and is on budget. That's pretty much on that subject for me -- over to you again, Harry.

Next question is where do you see KEFI in 24 months? Well, I think those slides referring to the sequencing of projects and the emergence of value for one of a better term, I think our sort of visually the simplest I can summarize my vision, I think that those simple slides and simple visions obviously understate the complexity of all the dimensions to what is happening here. And there are a number of things that we do, and we learn from everything we do and we then bolster up for the next step. And -- and that's the same with any startup of any business, let alone fairly complex ones who are affecting the lives of so many people in so many ways. But I feel very comfortable that there's this mighty weight of support. And even the people who are interfering with us, and I don't want to dwell on this, there's always interferers when there's a big prize to be had. It's not because they're trying to stop it, they just want a piece of the pie. And that's okay. You see that in all countries. But there's this weight of pushing there. I have no doubt that this is going ahead. I think from the point of your organization, what happens inside the organization. I mean Eddy, do you want to make any comments on -- let me just explain I took off of my internal looking hats for one of a better expression and hand them to Eddy a year or so ago. Eddy is an organization developer systems builder, he has done it for large groups, small groups for decades. So Eddy is the boss of systems development and team development as we turn this company into what it would be in 24 months, Eddy?

The key thing, thanks Harry is, I guess for us building robust safety systems, environmental systems at these and not in particular order, and then building capacity in the organization. Some of the questions that we received related around how do you build a company that has got a history of mining. Firstly, we use expats, but they're tasked not only to do their work as their skill sets dictate, but also to ensure that they've got backups, local people that they're training, bringing up to speed and giving experience so that they can take the reins. And we've already started that process. We have our geologist who is an Ethiopian man. Our country manager is also Ethiopian. We currently have 3 expats on board locally, but all of those are now grooming their understudies. And that's massively important, as you can imagine, because -- it's about how do you operate in any culture. And it doesn't matter, I mean, I move from Australia to the U.K. and I have had to adapt to the cultural differences between the U.K. and Australia. And one might say, well, that's very, very slight, it is. But in some ways, it can be quite profound and misunderstandings can easily arise. So having a cadre of very talented and very keen Ethiopians working with us and having them take over the reins in due course is massively important that mitigates risk. They teach us a lot. They teach us how to work, how to negotiate, how to integrate in the environment, and we bring along a Western framework around governance, procedures, systems and compliance. Yes, that's about it on organization development.

Okay, question, various shareholders have sent KEFI information on various media outlets, some free and some paid. We see -- and we see KEFI stick to just one promoter, can the board and Harry explain why so many other outlets have not been explored, and will KEFI be stepping up here? I've said before, please send any suggestions in, the only suggestions I've seen where -- and maybe I overlooked something with some blog sheets on the continent that we have to translate into other languages, but in terms of media, and we're happy to do that, I'm not saying we wouldn't do it, but it wasn't exactly a major initiative. And perhaps I missed something that was sent, I don't know -- but it's not right that we use one outlet, I don't know what that is referring to. Just yesterday, I was interviewed by Proactive, by Edison, DirectorsTalk when we put [indiscernible] it goes out to all the news wires. So it gets picked up by -- considered by hundreds of media outlets everywhere in the world, I don't have to print it. So I don't really know what that's referring to, to be honest. If any journalist wants an interview, they will be granted an interview, very rarely not. So I don't think it's a fair criticism to be honest. But again, I might have overlooked something. And there's talk of institutional investors and maybe coming one board, there's been a TR-1? I have been asked this question a few times, and I'll give the same answer, which is a simple truth. I'm aware of a few institutions on the board. They don't have to declare themselves unless they're over 3%. And if the shareholding is held in 2 or 3 independently run funds with different boards of trustees, they don't declare over 3%, because they're not -- that's it. I'm aware of a handful of institutions on the register, but clearly, they don't make the requirements to have to declare themselves and clearly, they're staying under the radar until they see what happens as to where they get more involved on that, I suppose, but I can't speak for them. But certainly, a junior stock is not the natural home for institutional investment capital. And whilst the own market and junior mining stocks have plummeted really a bit recently, the only thing that's particularly happened to us is that volumes have gone up, I suppose, is because the people are suffering the need to liquify, to sell the stocks they can liquify. But these companies of this scale are too small for institution unless they particularly want to get involved as it emerges. I'd like to think at least that what these institutions on the register are saying is that there's serious business agendas unfolding before us and being tackled by us in that they can get more involved as it moves forward. That's sort of -- I can only assume that's why to there. But at the moment, it's a bit frustrating, I suppose, for the person who raised the question because you can't see them, [indiscernible] capital is there for one, but we can't see the others. Next one, can you update shareholders on any progress that's being made of seeking a dual listing on the Saudi Exchange, maybe shed light on best expectations on when this may happen, do you have a target date? I think speaking of someone who has been involved with listed companies in Australia, U.K. and Canada, I can say with obvious sincerity that we always are openminded to look at any possibilities. The thing that stood out this year is about Saudi Arabia, which is why it sort of popped up on the radar of the questionnaire and ourselves is that all of a sudden, Saudi Arabia, which has always been massively prospective, but also never before being open to business really for the sector. Not only has it opened to business, but every second person in the mining space is talking about it now. Literally, wherever you go, it's pub talk all over the world, so to speak. And so yes, we are looking at it. Yes, we are getting our head around it, understanding it. First things first, the first thing one has to do is hit 1 or 2 of these milestones, and then you unveil the next -- the next set of capital providers. But the really critical thing here is that whilst AIM is so down in the dumps, it's [indiscernible] . I mean, you must all know that. In Saudi Arabia, and even in Ethiopia, I believe it a lot, there are local investors who want to be involved. And there's abundance of capital in Saudi Arabia, but a dearth of mining expertise and experience. So we are -- we're fortunate that we have relationships in Saudi Arabia. I spent a fair bit of time in Saudi Arabia, so we are building on those relationships and trying to understand. And before we make public comments about objectives and targets, we have a bit more to learn to understand exactly how one goes about it with the right backing at the right moment for the benefit of everybody. A long answer, but it's not an overnight thing. You have to understand how to get set properly and explain it properly when we reach some clarity of thought on the matter, that's our topic. Next question is that we bid for -- sorry in Saudi, the press report in Saudi state that our [indiscernible] partnership company there, 1 of the 2 companies that were bidding for the Saudi under a mining license, our previous similar license went to bid in an auction for $60 million, how would we finance 30%?