Kellanova (K) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

And we are so excited that you all have joined us today. I'm Crystal Wiese, I'm the Director of Marketing here at QuestionPro. You might know Dan Fleetwood, our President of Research and Insights, and we have lots of fun prizes. Also, if you check the chat window, you can see lots of conversations happening, but also, you can get a link to a free $5 Starbucks gift card on us using our QuestionPro Rewards, our own platform, once the survey closes at 11:30. You still have 40 minutes to get your free Starbucks. You will be delivered a $5 gift card to your inbox. We also have lots of other activities going on this afternoon where you can win an annual pass for MasterClass. And if you haven't done MasterClass, you're missing out. They're so fun and learning so much and it's like some of them I used, they put me to sleep sometimes because their voices are very comedy. We also are giving away 2 National Park passes for the United States and a Goldbelly gift card at the end of the day. So let's check and see if our panelists are here. We were flying through our schedules. Yes. Let's promote them up. Are you guys ready? Kyle, where is Bill? I think I turned Bill's camera off early.

It's all right. Here's Bill.

Yes, I see him. And Terah, you came in early. She's been here too. You guys -- we're so excited you are here, and you're joining us for QuestionPro XDay Spring. I will let Dan take it away. You don't need me for all of this.

No, you didn't. Thank you, Crystal. I appreciate that. Before we get started, I'll give a quick introduction and give some guidelines here, some -- with the Q&A. So feel free to ask questions and put them in the Q&A. There'll be about 15, 20 minutes at the end of this for questions for the panelists. We'll talk for about 45 minutes, and we'll get the background and what all these thoughts that the panelists have. So before we get started, I'll introduce the panel here. So first, we have Terah Putman, and she is -- she began her career at Kellogg's in January of 2000 as an interim. And after receiving her Masters in Market Research from University of Georgia, she worked across a range of cold cereal brands, from Frosted Flakes to Apple Jacks, Corn Pops, Special K and so on. Terah left Kellogg's at the end of 2005 to pursue a passion in qualitative research, where she worked at Harper and then started her own company, still working with a diverse set of clients across industries such as CPG, consumer appliance, et cetera. And during that time, she also held positions as a Chapter Chairperson for QRCA and was a Marketing Research Instructor at Western Michigan University. Then she returned to Kellogg's in 2007, where she supports role of the Director of Next-Generation Insights and beginning in 2020 when you started that role. And this includes responsibility for behavioral, science, implementation across research tools, maintenance of Kellogg's knowledge management platform and internal consumer research panel, Kitchen Insiders, that is supported by QuestionPro. So welcome, Terah. And next up, we have Kyle Hudson. So Kyle is a tenured sports business executive with a successful record of accomplishment in sales, number of retention, guest experience, partnership development and relationship management. She is currently a partner at the BCJ Group, helping organizations connect to their corporate cultures, to the employee and customer experience prior to joining the BCJ Group, Kyle worked for the NBA, where she partnered with teams across NBA, WNBA and NBA G leagues on strategies for retaining, engaging and developing ticket buyers. Kyle worked with the Phoenix Suns and Mercury over 8 years, with positions spanning new business, sales, client retention, guest experience, business development. She also led sponsorship activation for Super Bowls, Host Committee in Texas. In this role, she was responsible for onboarding, delivering best-in-class execution of contractual rights and guiding each of the 30-plus partners on their activation within Super Bowl LIV. And then next up, we have Bill Trovinger. So he has been in the market research industry for a decade. He's passionate about business-driving decisions through a deep understanding of consumer behavior. And his experience has spanned providing legacy brands through legendary campaigns with Old Spice to launching a new world grocery store concept, filled with new technology and brands at Amazon. This year, he was named one of the 50 most influential market researchers by actively driving market research conversations on LinkedIn. And I will say that Bill has some really funny stuff on LinkedIn. So make sure you follow him there. And then outside of work, he is a world Wiffle ball champion and adjunct professor at Seattle University and a great dad as well. So Bill, Kyle and Terah, welcome to the panel today.

Thanks for having us.

Yes. Thanks for having us be here.

Awesome. Well, let's start here. [Operator Instructions] So I guess starting out, Terah, we'll start with you. How do experiences play a role in your research?

I think the experiences are really critical to all of the work that we do because being a food company in addition to just nourishing people, I think what really differentiates our brands is the experience of the whole consumption moment. From the packaging to the brand, to the nostalgia or the history that goes with the advertising, all the way through to the way that food tends to bring people together and help people form bonds and connections. And so I think we talked about this a little bit already. But I think also the experiences that go into even just the research that we do and thinking about it not only as a one-way dialogue where we're getting information, but it's actually part of the larger experience that people have with our company. And we always want to make sure it's just a fun and engaging for our consumers to participate in studies or interviews or shop-alongs or whatever it is as it is informative for us.

Great. Great. Kyle, do you have any thoughts on that? How experiences play a role in the researcher work that you're doing at BCJ Group or the NBA?

Yes. I think -- I think -- I'm sure Bill and Terah would agree. I mean, it's all about creating loyal customers. People are going to be loyal to our brands, and it's interesting in the sports world. We work so hard, obviously, to create this amazing experience as it pertains to the sport that, that particular ticket buyer is bought into. But I think what's amazing about teams across a number of different leagues is that really trying to create that experience that's truly all-encompassing. So I think that's where the data piece really comes into piece where it's about understanding who our consumers are and what other interests and passions they have beyond just the sports organization that they're part of so that we can really kind of entice them to attend events that are kind of part of that passion or interest and really kind of create those different types of moments that again kind of really help create that loyalty for that particular brand.

Yes. And Bill, I know you mentioned something similar. So I'll let you take it away here.

Yes, absolutely. I mean, being at Amazon in the grocery world, I think the -- I mean, Amazon is trying to constantly improve customer experience. That's where you see a lot of the big innovation come from. But grocery, again, tons of innovation, but I think there's also been a very clear format and structure to grocery shopping for the last however many years. And then Amazon is trying to kind of re-create that experience and add some new pieces to that or some new dynamics to that. And what's been really interesting in working in that space has been trying to get such a technology-forward company, such a quick-moving company to take that step back and say, least, there's tried and true research methods that answer these questions. I don't fit the typical Amazon template for research and getting the buy-in to go do those. So I think there's creating -- understanding the customer experience from the customer and not just using the data that's coming in constantly from the Amazon platform.

Yes. Well, that's interesting. Terah, I think when we spoke, you mentioned something similar. How Kellogg's is pretty traditional in the research and you're trying to push them forward. So are there some techniques? Or how do you battle that? Or what are some success stories that you've got internally there?

Yes. I think there's always the benefits and the drawbacks of being a company that's been around for over 100 years. And we have a lot of legacy tools, and we're really comfortable using the things that we've done and are tried and tested. But I think COVID has taught us many things about behavioral change and how the world can change very quickly. And I'm just trying to leverage that momentum, I think, with the company to start to think about being willing to embrace change in some of these ways. There's so many new more behaviorally based methodologies out there. There's so many new ways to connect with our consumers and learn from them. And not to say you're ever just going to walk away from something just for the sake of the new, I think it really does call into question what's the right time to let go of some of these things that we've been holding on to for a really long time and find ways to evolve to a better way to learn.

Right. Right. That makes sense. What are -- I mean, some of the just -- Terah, just kind of sticking with you here for a minute to some of those things that you want to leave behind and better ways to learn. What are other successful strategies that you've seen? Is it education? Is it like the proof is in the pudding, so to speak? Or what are some of those ways?

Yes. I'm really much -- I'm more in the mindset of if you find what's in it for them, then people are more likely to let go of their changed version. So as much as we want consumers to change behavior and try new things, as researchers, we're just as averse to changing behavior and trying new things because of that loss of version. We don't want to do a research study and then get bad results or not get results we're comfortable in and then it reflects badly on us. So I think people are more game to put that risk out there and try something new when they recognize that what they're doing today isn't really working for them anymore. So it takes an investment of time to sit down and talk with somebody about, yes, this is what we've always done. It's what you're comfortable with. But what do you want it to be? What do you wish for? What would you like it to be? And if you can find a way to bring them a new tool or a new approach that delivers on some of those unmet needs, it's like applying what we know about what we do for consumers, but to ourselves, if we find an unmet need or a tension point in the research and how it's working, then it enables us to really bring something that they see the value in. And maybe it does require a parallel test where they cannot fully let go of the old before they embrace the new. But I think that's when I've been most successful is when you can find something that people look at and say, yes, this is solving what I was missing for.

Right. Right. That makes a lot of sense. And then, Kyle, I know at the BCJ Group, you guys do a lot with employees and getting them to work on their experiences and that trickles down to consumers. So do you guys have strategies or tactics that you coach employees on to help, I guess, embrace change that you can speak about?

Yes. I think it's really about getting in and having conversations with everyone from the frontline staff all the way up to the leadership group and really kind of creating that environment where there's communication happening across all levels. We're getting a feel for the frontline staff and what they're hearing from the customers, and that's translating all the way up to leadership. I think certainly an opportunity to, to Terah's point, like not only just understanding what the customers go through day-to-day as they're interacting with our brand, but having our employees kind of put themselves in the shoes of the customer and walking through what that customer journey and experience looks like. I think Netflix has an amazing approach where they just really focus on those employees like trying to identify what the hiccups and what the problems could occur with their customers before it actually happens. So it's really about getting them involved in that process from the very start, and I think that certainly helps with -- from an innovation standpoint as well.

Yes. No, that's interesting. And I know, Bill and Terah, you guys both brought up around getting in the shoes of the consumer, and that's so valuable even in today's big data age and so forth. So Bill, I'll pass it to you and ask you a question around that, like what are some of the ways that you're getting in the shoes of the consumer, especially as you're trying to balance, obviously, the digital grocery store experience?

Yes, absolutely. So it is bringing together, again, all the data that's coming in from Amazon. You've been to one of the new grocery stores here in Chicago or L.A. Most people are checking in using their palm print if you've seen this technology. That's been linked to your Amazon account. Again, you can imagine all of the data that's associated with all of those actions that you're then taking and purchase behaviors. But those are still just new steps to grocery shopping. That's -- there's additional pieces there. There's new products in the stores that we're trying to launch. And again, it's one of those -- my team is looking for that high-tech, very scalable, very process-oriented solution, and it's -- I don't have a good one yet other than here's the data here, here's part of the story. But what we're using now is some kind of Facetime type platforms that are helping us interview customers as they're in the store because we still have a lot of rules around being 6 feet away from people, travel restrictions, so a lot of virtual interviewing. And again, that -- even that, which seems like a very minor change in this kind of modern-day age of us being on Zoom calls all day every day, has taken a lot of sell-in. It's been a lot of linking that to our objectives and saying, here's the 10 things leadership needs us to accomplish this year. And again, knowing -- not knowing sort of when the travel ban will be lifted for us and when I can go in store, we don't have a local story yet. It's been longer sell-in than I ever imagined to get people even over that small of a hurdle to say, we need to go be in-store with folks, let's figure out how to go do that and technology is kind of our key there. But again, it's not a battle I would have imagined fighting a year ago.

No, that's definitely true, I think. That makes a lot of sense. And Terah, I know you mentioned something similar when we spoke around that you feel like that personal connection has been lost in, obviously, the COVID times and that you really wanted a way that your team, I think, I guess, will back up on a valuable to get out when they're going to focus groups in local markets, do some shop-alongs, go see what the product looks like. So how are you battling that now? And what are some ways of maybe think tools or techniques has helped you through this?

Yes. I think that goes into the camp of trends that were already started before COVID that COVID just amplified it. I think for many years, Big Data had started to pull us away from that more personal in-person connection, the more qualitative-oriented time that we spent out with consumers in their homes or in stores with them or even just in a meeting room in a hotel, but face-to-face with them. And so we talked about this a little bit. I think there's so much richness in data that it felt like they were equal or that social mining and other things would even be better. Then they're really inefficient traveling around the country side to meet with a handful of people in each city. But I think what we lost along the way is the human connection, in that, we get very insular as big companies, and we're sort of in our building and in our head and around people who are very much like us. And that ability to get out and see our consumers and how they are so diverse and different around the country and just how the markets are different, I think, has really been a missing piece. But even, just prior to COVID with people cutting back on travel budgets and using technology more had already started, and then COVID has just really brought it into sharp focus, how much we're missing that human connection with people. And so I think what we've been trying to do to compensate is largely what Bill said. Just use the technology we have, more video, more people are comfortable on video now. So there's more willingness for people to sit and do Zoom-based kind of qualitative or respond to survey questions with video rather than with a scaled response. And so any sort of human connection where we can bring consumers to life is really where we're trying to lean in and get more of that.

Right. And I think you brought an interesting point where I think COVID has amplified things that were already massive becoming more prominent, right? So I think that's interesting. And Kyle, I know when we talked you mentioned what you did when you're at the NBA, you had this annual season ticket for the members, certainly, you would do all really around the shape experiences, right, and to make sure that you're connecting with the consumers. So maybe you can speak a little bit to that and how that helped you in shaping these experiences for seasoned ticket holders.

Yes. I would just, first off, kind of going back to focus groups. Like I'm a huge -- big believer in focus groups. We would conduct them all the time across all of our sports teams, and obviously, it has a direct correlation between a member that attends a focus group to [indiscernible]. But it's interesting. The folks that we get to participate in surveying and focus groups, it's like 2 different spectrums. It's like they're really, really unhappy with the product or they love the product. And both of those are, like, honestly, even the unhappy folks, like they're still passionate, and they're likely to renew. It's like that middle ground, the people that just don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. And those are the folks that we would consider fence sitters and like what are the tactics out there to try and get them involved and provide their feedback and meet us in person and create that connection, like those are the groups of people that we really want to hone in on. But what Dan and I were talking about specifically on this annual member survey, it's just how the feedback has changed over the years and especially as we're moving into this digital world and the demographic of seasoned ticket members are starting to skew a little bit younger. You're finding that not every seasoned ticket member wants or needs like a personal account executive to proactively reach out and create that relationship. When I first started with the Suns, back in 2004, that was really the first year that we developed this proactive service approach where it's not just us customer service, like you're creating relationships with people, you're learning about them asking them questions. And now it's kind of at a point where we have to customize that experience for each member and understand that if they don't want a personal representative, that's fine, but we just need to make sure that we're addressing all the needs they do have, like quick problem-solving, unique and experiential events, things like that. So it's just interesting, obviously, how the data changes so quickly year-over-year.

Yes. I think that's right. Bill, you were kind of mentioning when Kyle was mentioning, it's either really positive or fully negative. I'm sure it sounds like you have some similar experiences there.

Yes. So at Amazon, one way that we are kind of calling a voice of the customer, kind of, piece is we look at customer reviews like really intensely. We analyze, and there's an internal system that if I'm not looking at amazon.com and scrolling through reviews, there's an internal system that kind of helps me organize. But it's always -- I always have to remind the team to take that with a grain of salt because if someone's willing to take that time to write a review on Amazon, it's either something they love or something they hate. In the food space, unfortunately, we get -- it's also heavily skewed by like I ordered food and it either was delivered bad or like my fruit got smushed in the car on the delivery, which, again, it's part of the Amazon supply chain, but like little control over that. But also reminded me of a project we did when I was at Microsoft actually. We went and traveled around the country and talk to some of our best customers in the mid-market kind of B2B space. And essentially, that ended up becoming almost another sales point for our sales team, supporting our sales team at the time because we were bringing these customers together. We said, you would fill out our customer satisfaction survey, you told us that you are happy with these things, dissatisfied with these things. Let's invite them to kind of -- call it like a swanky facility, but a nicer facility, have some drinks and some apps and like this have a really open conversation and had some sales team members travel with me, and I was like, so you're talking to senior sales leaders at Microsoft, what do you want them to know? And that -- we then followed those customers for the next year to see what their retention was, what their conversations were. They're already strong customers, but to see them create this personal connection, again, it's obviously a very one-to-one marketing. It's not a huge scalable program. But to use research in that way I thought was actually really smart.

Yes, that's super interesting. Terah, I think you mentioned something similar with the focus groups like there's that it creates the more of that one-on-one connection, obviously. And you know the people coming into the group or either they love it or hate, right? So kind of speak to that a little bit.

Yes. I think, again, there's the value of what you learn when you're in person with someone and you can read their non-verbals and you can follow up and probe and really get beneath that superficial first-got reaction that people give you. And especially in the food space, I think there's a lot of layers of cultural conditioning, I'll say, people know what they're supposed to say what they should think or what they should be doing. Like we all know, there's healthier foods and unhealthier foods and that we should be exercising. So I think what in-person research allowed you to do is build report with people to the point that they could move past that like the answer of what I know I should be thinking or what I should be doing and start to move into a little bit more trust or openness, when they -- I love that moment. I just love people, but I love that moment when you're talking with people and one person kindly admits, they're like, yes, but this is when I don't do the thing. And then all of a sudden, the floodgates open up of like somebody broke the ice, and now everyone is going to share the truth of what they really do or even just the more subtle moment when you're in someone's house and they're telling you, again, probably initially the things they should be doing or they should -- that they always read the labels or they never snack after dinner or whatever. And then you go on their pantry, and you get to enhance that maybe that's not all the story that they're telling you. And then, again, through report and just being human, you can get them to that point where they tell you the exceptions to the rule, which is usually where the really interesting stuff is. So I missed that part of being in person with people, but I do think that there are ways, again, with video and technology that if you invest the time to really scrap beneath the surface, you can still get to that kind of rich insight, which is really that's to us what we're always in the hunt for. What's a deeper, richer trigger and insight and motivation that's behind the sort of superficial standard answer.

Right, right. That makes a lot of sense, I think. And Kyle, you probably have something similar in some of the focus groups that you ran, right? Or maybe the question was asked in the floodgates opened. Anything come to mind there?

Yes. I think it was always eye-opening to identify how you think you're communicating like all of their benefits over and over and over again in different ways and what they get for being a seasoned ticket member and how they're differentiated from a single game buyer. But once you get them around the table, they're like, well, I didn't know I got this or I didn't know I got this. And so it just reinforces the fact that the education piece is so important and you can't just communicate with consumers in 1 or 2 different ways. It needs to be multiple ways to try and get their attention and make sure that they understand what they're getting and why there's value.

Right. That makes sense. Makes sense. Just a quick moment to remind everybody, use the Q&A function if you have questions. We'll be doing a Q&A coming up in about 15, 20 minutes here. So get your questions in now, if you want them answered. I think switching gears a little bit, Bill. I know you mentioned to me that something that just -- it's somewhat obvious, but it hit home to me is that the speed of research is always going to accelerate. When you put it like that, it's like, yes, you're still right. So maybe kind of elaborate on that a little bit and tell people what you mean by that.

Yes, absolutely. So just having been over a decade now in the industry, just seeing how the tools and the -- I guess let me start back again. The questions haven't changed all that much. The questions are pretty similar, especially if you stay within the same industry. But the expectation of how it's answered and like when it's answered has changed dramatically. Shifting from companies that have sort of large libraries where they're convincingly pull, again, it might not be the most up to date, but there's typically some piece of information somewhere floating around a large company with a large research organization that you can get to a partial answer. But as I've kind of continued to move and progress, that doesn't seem to be as acceptable anymore. It's -- each question becomes more unique and as customer needs have changed just faster and faster and faster, digging back into my previous food experience at General Mills, the way, and Terah, you probably are super close to this, is just how quickly food trends have started to change. I mean you think Diet Pepsi, and I worked on [indiscernible] like for a while. I mean, that like '80s fake sugar trend lasted for so long. And then all of a sudden, like you got into this more recent period were like Quito, Palio. Again, I think our key naming food trends out there, how quickly those came and went and advanced and some stuck around and became more and more niche. So now being able to sort of answer the spectrum of questions on those. Again, the teams I've worked with have -- because I think in their head, technology is out there, that can answer all of these questions very simply. They -- it's sort of the Google effect. They have a question, they type it into Google, they get an answer. They expect research to work similarly. And I think we're being conditioned to have that. And again, research still takes time. There's still leg work. There's still alignment that needs to be done. So as trends and tools just seem to change more and more rapidly, I think the goal of the researcher is just to try to anticipate as much as possible without then overstepping into doing work for the sake of work and just trying to have separate expectations, but have answer as quickly as possible.

Right. Right. And then I think that's a good point. And Terah, what are some ways that Kellogg's is sort of staying ahead of trends and identifying these trends using research? Or can you think of anything off the top of your mind?

Yes. So many things come to mind based on what Bill was saying. I think that there -- yes. I've been around, obviously, you mentioned, [turnaround] date, a long time. And there was a time where it was very standard to say a month. It was always a month to get anything. By the time you wrote the questionnaire, improved it and I mean haven't heard you had to do mall intercept and then wait for tabs to be printed. I mean it was like a multi-week process at the very best. And I think generationally, there's more millennials in the workforce that have just grown up with the Internet and they have expectations for the Google effect of everything being much more instantaneous. And then we know as researchers that our instant tool is out there in online panels. So I totally agree with everything you're saying in terms of the expectation of speed. But I think we're trying to balance that because there's always a Yin and Yang, pro and con. We can get answers really fast, but I think what it potentially leads to is people re-asking the same information and us being very inefficient with our resources because there may be already a secondary data source that has an answer or maybe we already did that study 6 months or a year ago. Has the answer really changed? Do we really need to check again? Or are we just using resources to cover the same ground we already have? So I think it's a partnership between knowing when is the right time to do something very agile and quick and when we need to be on the cutting-edge of a trend or identifying a trend early and when we can use some of our knowledge management resources to leverage the data we already have because it's already there. So it is also very fast as long as we can get our hands on it quickly.

Interesting. So it sounds like it's not only like what technologies, but how can the process change to erase you said, well, we don't need to do some of this research, it's order there, but that's a little change in process as opposed to a change in technology.

Yes, it's about the behavior of the researcher and where they think to go first. And is it always to go to something primary and start something fresh, or is it to go check what's already on the shelf first and then decide if we need to do something new.

Right. Right. That makes a lot of sense. And then, Kyle, I know what Terah was mentioning around and Bill, I think, was mentioning the same thing around like the Google trend, and you mentioned with millennials, it's the ticket-buying experience is different. You're probably seeing some of those same things and some of the same trends at the NBA, I'd say.

Yes. I mean the mobile ticketing piece is huge now and not only mobile ticketing, but mobile parking passes and the apps that teams have and being able to order concession food on your phone. So all that data, obviously, is being collected. And I think teams are as quickly as they possibly can or using it to customize that experience, trying to take the Disney approach and think about how seamless of an experience it can be when that customer is pulling up to that parking garage and letting them know here's the best entrance to come in based on the lines, your parking garage is here based on where your seat location is. This is the best entrance for you to use. So those types of things are being pulled in and utilized. But absolutely, I mean, we've got to continue to find ways to really customize that experience for those folks that were providing us their data.

Yes, that's -- if you think about that, much of a shaped experience like park here because it's easier to get here. I mean that's really interesting. Bill, I'm sure that the Amazon stores are probably thinking about some of that in terms of maybe you know some of the things that are going to buy us here directly. And then I don't know, making it up off the cuff, but perhaps maybe speak to that a little bit.

I would say there's definitely a 2.0 where this data is being better analyzed, better utilized and more personalized for the customer. I think Amazon is currently learning that grocery is hard, and there's a lot of moving pieces in it. But again, there will be a day when there's carts that -- there's currently carts where when you put the groceries in, it knows what it is. It shows you on a little screen how much it costs, if there's any coupons, things like that. Again, that seems like prime real estate for, hey, last time you were in, you bought x. Do you want to purchase that again? Or x -- like a co-merch x goes great with y. You bought the hot dogs. Hot dog buns are in Aisle 6. Absolutely, see a day where that technology starts to really personalize for the shopper, especially with the cart technology that's being rolled out. But I think, again, I think we're still in the process of harnessing all of that before we can confidently roll that out to customers, but it's coming.

Right. It makes sense. I bet. I bet. So I think let's shift gears a little bit here, and we've been talking a lot about sort of the future and what we see coming down the pipeline. But what are some things that you want to leave behind that you don't want to take with you towards the future? I know, Terah, you mentioned something very specific to me was the purchase interest scale. So maybe explain that a little bit and why you want to leave that behind?

I knew you weren't going to let me off the hook with my [indiscernible] pushback. Yes. So I feel like the -- this goes back to the point of the legacy tools, right? We're very attached to standardized scales and things that we have normative databases against, and we continue to use those. And I feel like they're a bit of a security blanket for us today because when you really look underneath the surface, so not to be overly controversial, but the tendency to use the 5-point behavioral purchase interest scale and then aggregate the top 2 boxes into a top 2 net and compare that as our sort of one number standard of truth for everything, I think, really leaves a lot on the table when we know that, that's not how people really think in the grocery store. It's so over rationalized. And we know decision-making at shelf isn't that thought through. It's not that carefully considered. And we know so much more about the importance of the speed of the decision or how rational or subconscious it is. And so I feel like there's a million different ways that technology and research design enables us to get better data that talks more about habit and automated responses and the context influences that we could be using to better predict real end-market behavior that will just make us better. Because at the end of the day, as Bill said, grocery is hard. Grocery is a very hard industry to win in. And we invest a lot of resources in innovation, in new product development and in marketing. And so I feel like it's my responsibility to the organization to say, for sure that I can defend, yes, this product is going to succeed and stick in market. And I find it really hard other than because we've always done it that way to defend a top 2 box score.