KFin Technologies Limited (KFINTECH) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, welcome to the Q3 FY '23 Earnings Conference Call of KFin Technologies hosted by Kotak Securities Limited. [Operator Instructions]. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Abhijeet Sakhare from Kotak Securities Limited. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Sakhare.

Thank you, Michelle. Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the Earnings Conference call of KFin Technologies Limited to discuss the 3Q FY '23 performance of the company and share industry and business updates. We have the senior management with us represented by Mr. Sreekanth Nadella, MD and CEO; Mr. Vivek Mathur, CFO; and Mr. Amit Murarka, Head, Investor Relations. I would now like to hand over to Sreekanth for his opening comments, after which we will take your questions. Over to you, Sreekanth.

Thank you, Abhijeet. Very good afternoon to one and all. This is Sreekanth. I lead up the organization as the Chief Executive, and thank you so much for giving your precious time this evening. Over the next half an hour, we would walk you through in terms of our performance for the quarter as well as for the 9 months ending 31st December, and would leave the floor open for questions for the latter half of the call. So I'm going to start with -- given this is our very first earnings call, I would like to take this opportunity to walk everyone -- you all through a little bit about our journey so far. Some of you might have heard about it. But we believe it's important to set some context. As an organization, KFin Tech has been in existence since 1985, so long years in making. Started our business with rendering issuer solutions, which is effectively what you call as share transfer registry in today's world. Slightly latish entrance into the mutual fund started in 1995, and ever since managed to claw back some amount of lost time by winning quite a significant number of mandates. Sometime around 2010, as the asset classes started expanding beyond the traditional asset classes of equity, debt, and into mutual funds, the alternatives have started to expand and KFin Tech as an organization, which is largely a technology and a platform driven solutions provider, has expanded its solutions into all other asset classes as well, starting 2010. We also took extreme pride in starting probably the first international foray for an organization of this style, based in India by starting our business in Southeast Asia, domiciled in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia, and thus started our international expansion, especially from Southeast Asia standpoint. Around 2017, we have secured the license to become the second central recordkeeping agent for National Pension System. Over a period of time, we have expanded our footprint to a respectable 7% of the total market share over the last 4 years. And I will explain more in terms of what has been the specific and the growth associated with that in time to come. 2018 marked a very important year for us in terms of General Atlantic, a controlling stake buyout, which spawned three definitive transformational items. One of that was our technology transformation. Second was a creation of an independent board and fir-for-purpose management. And the third being largely acquisitive by nature by outlook, which has resulted in KFin Tech buying out the Sundaram BNP Paribas RTA business back in 2020. Last year, we have acquired Hexagram, which is a Fund Accounting Administration platform, which gives us a very unique ability to be one of the only RTAs in the country who can handle both the asset side as well as the liability side of the book of a fund manager. 2021 also was an important year for us with Kotak Mahindra Bank acquiring a sub 10% stake in us. And of course, the December of 29 of the previous year, momentous day for KFin Tech when the company got successfully listed on the National Stock Exchange and the BSE. That's largely our journey so far. To sum it all up, Investor Solutions, broad business, which covers the domestic mutual funds, international solutions in Southeast Asia and beyond, alternatives and the wealth management associated platform and the National Pension System, Issuer Solutions to the share transfer registry piece of work and the global business services, which is more an outsourcing, sort of, work that we do for specific clients in the mortgage space and some amount of F&A outsourcing as well as the general ledger accounting outsourcing for the Middle Eastern banks. Quickly moving on, just in terms of, what is this organization at a very high level glance, we are the largest Investor Solution provider to the Indian mutual funds in the form of the number of asset management companies we serve. 26 out of 46 asset management companies are KFin Tech's clients. Of these 41 are operational at this point in time. Of the 41, 24 are KFin Tech's clients. We manage a total AAUM of INR 12.7 trillion, and one that is expanding fast year-after-year. Our win rate had been 15 out of 22 in the past x number of years exemplifying the growth that is contributed not just by the clients' growth, but as well as new clients getting added and ergo driving the expansion of our overall AUM as well as equity AUM. Our overall market share for the equity is 35%. In terms of SIP monthly inflow, which is the bellwether and the sticky retail book, which tends to compound over a period of time stands at 41.6% for the period ending December 2022. Overall number of folios that you add up between Investor Solutions and Issuer Solutions, KFin Tech has close to 225 million folios, which makes KFin Tech amongst the largest registrars in this world. Issuer Solutions, we have a 49% market share when you count the market cap of the Nifty 500 companies that KFin Tech services. Even by count, KFin Tech has a little around 43% market share on the total number of corporates listed on the Nifty 500. Overall base is about 5,100 clients. And we add little around 150-odd corporates every single quarter, be it listed or unlisted together. Whilst Investor Solutions on domestic funds and Issuer Solutions have been our traditional businesses, KFin Tech, have had expansions into International and other Investor Solutions, which have been the fastest growing businesses. Today, we manage 33 international clientele between Southeast Asia and beyond. In the case of Central Record Keeping Agencies, we have one of the three CRAs and we manage close to 0.9 million subscribers, which accounts for 7% of the total market share. On the alternate investment funds, we have about 348 AIFs secured marks about 1/3 of the total AIFs, which has a composition of a full-scale model of TA plus FA plus value-added solutions. Some of these are purely for regulatory and compliance requirements on stamp-duty, well, and all these. Overall, beyond the statistics, we have been an extremely innovative company at the core. Launched over 20 products. Many of these are monetized directly or indirectly contributing to the growth of our clients. In terms of volumes of transaction, KFin Tech manages as many transactions as the industry nearly -- as much as the industry does at this point in time. And in terms of ESG rating, we are rated as the second best corporate in the country, rated A, and we pride in tracking to our internal security scores of our infrastructure, which stands at a very impressive 770 plus as of December. Our growth largely has been on the back of very simple -- keep it simple, but then executed well, effectively by maintaining our market leadership through excellent delivery, through relationship with our clients. And that we believe we can do only and only through very effective technology investments and process innovation. We continue to expand internationally, organically as well as inorganically in the form of acquisitions. And none of this is truly possible without retaining strong talent. As you would see that KFin Tech continues to invest in talent, both in terms of additional new account as well as in terms of retention of key personnel. We have also significantly enhanced our sales capability, our products and transformation, innovation capability over the past 12 months. Broadly, in terms of our highlights for Q3 and the 9 months ending December, we continue to maintain our growth trajectory with a combination of growth on the traditional businesses as well as faster expansion of the younger businesses. Overall, Q3 revenues grew by 12% year-on-year. EBITDA grew by 9%. Margins for the Q3 stands at 42.9%. Our PAT has grown 79% year-on-year, and margins stand at 28.4%, the PAT margin at 28.4% for the Q3. For the period ending 9 months, our revenue grew 17%. EBITDA growth was at 5% year-on-year and margins stand at 39.9% for the cumulative period of 9 months, even as the PAT has grown by 42% and margin standing at 25.8%. As I said, our business is broadly composed of domestic mutual funds, which has our total share of close to about 68% and the rest of the business on the issuer, international alternatives, et cetera, constitute the remaining 30% plus. Our mutual funds business, overall AUM continues to expand faster than the industry. For example, our AAUM has expanded by 8.5% year-on-year as against an industry growth of 5.4%. Our AUM market share, on the other hand, has expanded by a full 100 basis points from the previous year, which now stands at 31.7%. That's a substantial market share gain in 12-month period even as the market has expanded. Our equity AAUM market share is at 35%. Through this period, we have also won a new mandate of Old Bridge Capital even as one of our erstwhile clients Navi has chosen to partner with CAMS in terms of the new management intending to align on the broader corporate relationships. Issuer Solutions, which is one of our faster-growing businesses has grown over 40% year-on-year as last quarter-on-quarter broadly. We have added 128 clients, and making our total client base to 5,000-plus, close to 0.8 million investor folios have been added, making it one of the largest -- the largest registrar in the country, even as a market share in terms of NSE 500 Company stands at 49% for Q3 versus what was a 43% Q3 for FY '22. Our International Investor Solutions, we have added 33 clients. We have totally 33 clients at this point in time, which stood at 22 for the previous 9 months ending December 2022. We have won our first client outside of India and Asia into Canada for providing full-scale fund administration services, for two funds of this client. We believe this would be a good segue for us to expand into the western part of the world, where Fund Accounting Administration is a fairly large addressable market with a $6 billion plus ticket size. We started our operations in Gift City in February, and we have already onboarded six funds in there, four being Gift City Domicile and two international funds. On the alternatives, one of the asset classes, we are very, very excited about in terms of the growth prospects as well as the value that we can offer to the asset managers and to the distribution network and to the investors. 47 funds have been added in Q3 alone, taking the total number of funds to 348 for the period ending December 2022. Our market share stands at 33% versus what was 30% in the previous year, and our AAUM correspondingly has grown 28% year-on-year and 3% quarter-on-quarter. Our spectrum of services for alternatives also has grown beyond the traditional transfer agency work with the acquisition of Hexagram, where now we render end-to-end solutions of tranfer agency, fund accounting administration, entire stack of digital onboarding and all the other value-added solutions. National Pension System, we continue to add sizable numbers with each passing day. Our market share stands at 7%, as I already called out. We look at expanding the -- not just the market share, but also creating the market itself quite substantially. We have launched a corporate specific product called Futur. We have been adding a little around 100-odd corporates every single quarter even as we intend to transition from eNPS model into the corporate model through very, very specific and targeted solutions we believe will help the corporate employees to subscribe to National Pension System through that particular platform. Overall mutual funds itself, from an India performance standpoint, as one can easily read from the public domain has been seeing sizable growth this year for the period ending 2023, 5% year-on-year, 3% quarter-on-quarter, a little subdued compared to the past 3 years broadly. But as I've already explained in comparison to 5.4% of industry growth, KFin Tech had grown over 8.4%, which effectively marks much higher net flows into KFin Tech service funds. Equity AAUM stands at 35% for KFin Tech, even as the overall growth had been 12% year-on-year. KFin Tech's growth also had been similar, slightly higher than 12.4%, standing at 12.8%. SIP inflows, I have already called that out, KFin Tech's number overall share of the wallet is about 42%, even though overall equity AUM stands at 35%, and the overall AAUM stands at 31%. The retail book, which is usually sticky and compounding is something that we believe will over time help KFin Tech's overall AUM share to increase beyond where it currently stands today. In terms of the number of folios and number of transactions, however, we have near parity in the industry in terms of the total number of transactions we process as well as the total number of folios we manage, both in terms of overall AUM as well as on the equity side of things, which effectively speaks about, again, a lot of retail book. Right? And in terms of the other asset classes, even as the overall AIFs register continue to expand, our win rate doesn't necessarily justify the revenue. It should be higher as we believe many of the AIFs will go on to launch their funds into the coming months and quarter, which effectively should drive the revenue higher up from where we are today. Now, given we operated every asset class in a decentralized manner, a number of demat account expansion is very important for us, as that impacts our revenue for Issuer Solutions, which has grown over 40%, as I have already called out. So increase in the number of clients as well as the much broader retail participation helps our Issuer Solutions grow, even as technology-enabled products and platforms we created for the corporates at large has been helping us to drive our value-added solutions as well. International Mutual Funds, specifically on the Southeast Asian side, we see the opportunity size, if you add up the geographies of Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia and Thailand to be around $1.3 trillion, which is a little over 2x the size of India. And KFin Tech renders both Transfer Agency and Fund Accounting Administration Services in this part of the world. A very young, nascent business, one that has been growing quite rapidly. Notwithstanding the fact that last year, the Southeast Asian markets mark-to-market has come down by over 5%. But our win rates and a pretty significant pipeline hopefully will auger well in terms of the growth that is potentially possible into the coming quarters in this line of the business. Our own business highlights, overall AUM, as I said, has increased by a full 100 basis points, compared to 9 months of the previous year from 30.7% to 31.7%. Overall, equity AUM market share on the other hand, is stable at 35%. For the year -- for the quarter ending December, we stand at 31.7%, 35% on equity and overall mix of equity to our AUM stands at 56%, which has seen expansion by a little around 240 basis points for the previous year. In terms of the SIP, overall inflows, both in terms of the folios and in terms of the value, we stand close to 42%. Folios itself has been growing much faster than the value, which I would like to believe over a period of time will catch up with the total value itself. In terms of our transaction volume, we have seen a significant rise in the overall volumes by a little over 15% in mutual funds. And if I aggregate all the businesses together, it is a 28% increase in volumes across our lines of businesses. This, if you read in the context of our overall operations and the productivity we drove with a net headcount reduction during this period and it's largely on account of the technological transformation we are able to bring to life. Partnering with CAMS on the MFCentral, we have launched the CAS API together as partners in this journey. And in times to come, all commercial and non-commercial transaction APIs will also be expanded and extended to all the digital and fin tech ecosystem in the country, which we believe will add a certain amount of revenue base for both the organizations. Issuer Solutions has moved. As I said, we've added about 12% year-on-year and about 2.5% quarter-on-quarter. Our folio expansion has been at over 13% in terms of the number of clients itself. On Nifty 500 from December 2021, where the market share was 35%, today it stands close to 40%. In terms of number of folios too has expanded from 37% to 43%. Market cap of the Nifty 500 has moved from 42.9% to 49%, speaking volumes about the quality of the clientele and the wins we've had through this period, even as the revenues have seen close to 40% growth during this period. We have seen an expansion of our international clintele from 22 to 33. This is largely on the back of our acquisition of Hexagram, which has added international clients as well as organic growth of KFin Tech's own all clients. Overall AUM itself has seen a slight dip, that's largely in the context of the mark-to-market reduction in most of the operating geographies in that part of the world. But we believe that is sporadic and probably a onetime dip in the radar that should correct itself in time to come. Even as a transaction volume during this period has increased 4-fold from 0.9 million to 4 million between FY '20 and in FY 2023. In terms of other solutions, broadly alternatives, our revenues have grown AIF little around 42%. And our AUM also has expanded in terms of the operating AUM has expanded to around 28% year-on-year. Fund administration has moved from 23 to 32 during this period from March to December '22, that is, which also has 8 international clients between Southeast Asia and Canada, so to speak. In terms of pensions, we have gone live with the state of Madhya Pradesh, the previous year. We have nearly doubled our subscriber count from 0.35 to close to 0.9 million during -- sorry, 0.45 to 0.9 million nearly double both the folio, both the subscriber count as well as our revenues during the period of the National Pension System, even as we have added a sizable number of corporates and POPs during this period of time. That's broadly the business highlights. I would request Mr. Vivek Mathur to walk you through on the financials.

Thanks, Sreekanth. On the financials, if you look at quarter ended FY '23 and 9 months ended December 31, 2022, the revenue has gone up by 17.1% year-on-year. And quarter-on-quarter, it has gone up by 12.1% in terms of last 9 months versus this period 9 months. And if you look at Q2 to Q3 within the same financial year, it has gone up by 5%. It's largely backed by the increase in Domestic Mutual Fund business by about 5% quarter-on-quarter. Issuer Solutions has gone up by 6% quarter-on-quarter. International and Other Industrial Solutions has gone up by about 11.5%. If you look at year-on-year, the Domestic Mutual Fund has gone up by 11%. Issuer Solutions, about 39%. International and Other Investor Solutions by about 46%. This includes the integration with Hexagram, and the size of the businesses of AIF and pension and Southeast Asia business. So overall growth is 46% year-on-year. On the Global Business Services, there is a growth of 7.7% for the year, while there is slight dip in the quarter-on-quarter of about 5%. That's more because of the FX gain that we have, that we see the year-on-year increase, while the number of seats that we have been operating with for the mortgage servicing business still remain the same. On the -- If you look at the EBITDA, the EBITDA has gone up by about 5%. But if you see quarter-on-quarter, it has gone up by 13.6%. And on the year-on-year basis, if you see same period of 9 months and same period of 9 months last year, that growth of 5% is there. But if you see year-on-year, it is 9% same quarter last year versus same quarter this year. However, our EBITDA margin continued to be in the range of 40% to 45% as we maintained. It's 39.9% for 9 months ended December '22. And for the quarter, it is 42.9%. So typically, Q1 and Q2 see the stress of increments and expenses coming in. And as the business grows and revenue grows in Q2 and Q3 it catches up. And that's how Q3 FY '23 sees an EBITDA margin of 42.9%. PAT has touched 42% growth year-on-year. In terms of quarter-on-quarter, it is 11.4%. But as compared to last year same period, same quarter, it's 78.6%. PAT margins have touched 25.8%, while for the quarter, it is 28.4%. And we maintained healthy cash flows of about INR 229 crores. And therefore, the EPS on a diluted basis has gone up by 29% from INR 3.15 for this quarter and 9 months is INR 8.20. That sets very high level summary of the financials, and we are happy to take questions now. Abhijeet, over to you.

[Operator Instructions] We have the first question from the line of Aejas Lakhani from Unifi Capital.

Congratulations on the numbers, and thanks for the meeting call summary that you gave regarding the business. Sreekanth, a couple of questions. First is -- if you could talk about Navi, I mean, I thought that was a recent mandate. So what made them go to the competition? That's one. And on telescopic pricing, we -- what we understand is that prices because of the telescoping nature are already at in -- there's no scope for further reduction, but the regulator comes out and has made some statements. So your thoughts on pricing that -- is there any scope for pricing to still come down? And Vivek, one question to you is, Hexagram, what was the revenue number this quarter, because it was not there last year this time. So could you call the Hexagram number separately?

Thank you, Aejas. No, Navi is not a new client. Navi took over Essel. Essel was KFin's client back in the day. And with the change in the management of the organization, KFin Tech manages the Fund Accounting Administration side of the business for Navi. It is possibly due to segregation duty. Typically, if you've seen Indian mutual fund industry, we don't do TA and FA together, it could be possibly for that reason. So it's not a new client. Second, in terms of the yield compression, see, it's -- telescopic pricing is what it is. To that extent, as the value overall corpus increases, clearly, there is an expected certain amount of compression that is to be seen. In terms of the regulators' commentary, if you see the -- I think, the request or the counsel sought on the consultation paper, it was largely with a view to stop or at least to manage miss selling, if I may, in terms of investors' money being moved from one fund to the another with a view to secure higher TER, if I may, right? And the very specific purpose, as stated was that and it has no bearing on the registrars' operations. Our operations and the cost and et cetera, continue to be disengaged with on the selling side of the fund, so to speak. So we believe that beyond the telescopic pricing, we may not see any additional yield compression.

Yes. On the question -- this is Vivek. On the question related to Hexagram revenue, it was INR 8.8 crores for the 9 months ended December '22.

Got it. Sreekanth, just a follow-up on that. In renegotiations that you would have had with recent clients, has there been any pressure on yields when you've been having these conversations. And just on the international piece, you had mentioned earlier that you won some geographies. So when do those -- sorry, some new clients in different geographies. So when do those go live? I mean, should we expect something in the next quarter? Or will it be in the year '24?

So I'll answer the second question first. So we have already gone live with our client in Canada. In the last meeting we've had earlier in the previous year, it was still under negotiation and early parts of transition. So we have successfully gone live as of January for two funds for the client based in Canada. In addition to that, I think in the Southeast Asian side, of course, we continue to look to expand our operations into Thailand, subject to necessary regulatory approval. So that is yet to happen. In terms of the contract renegotiations, our contracts are largely -- now this question is very specific to domestic mutual funds. It doesn't happen with any other business. In fact, most of the businesses, the price actually goes up. The contract negotiation itself is a factor of the contracting terms, which is anywhere between 3 to 5 years, depending upon which client you speak with. Depending upon any amount of significantly higher growth or maybe even lower growth for that matter, we take certain steps to partner with our client so as to their growth faster. So short answer, can yield compression be possible at the time of contract renegotiation, the answer is yes. But by and large, it would be minimal in comparison to the telescopic pricing related impact.

[Operator Instructions] We have the next question from the line of Devansh N from SIMPL.

Sir, in case of employee cost, can you share the headcount as on March '22 and March '21 and December '22?

Yes. Just give us a moment, please. So the dates you're looking, for March 2022 last year beginning, we were at 5,440. And December, for the period ending the previous month, we were at 5,300. And sorry, what was the other period that you asked for?

March '21?

March '21 was 4,900.

Okay. So over here, what is the annual appraisal cycle for us?

Typically, it is April, like any other Indian corporate. Yes.

Okay. Because if I exclude the employee cost, if I look at ex-ESOP, so there has been a significant increase. So can you help us understand where it's coming from?

Yes. This is Vivek. In terms of the employee cost, the increase is largely related to a reset for the IT employees that we have. Then there is integration of Hexagram that has an additional cost of all the employees' pay costs coming in and the regular increments that we give. We have also seen increase in replacement cost during the year based on the demand supply situation that we experienced. So we have seen an average cost going upwards of 20% in terms of replacement cost. So -- and besides -- this is all besides the ESOP cost, which is exceptionally different for this year being the IPO year and the vesting happening this year. So these are the main reasons for increase in employee cost.

Okay. But I mean, let's say, if I look at -- if I look at stand-alone and if I exclude the ESOP cost, it was INR 52 crores in December '22, and December '21 was INR 36 crores. No change in employee cost. The cost increase at ESOP is actually 50%. So -- 44%, sorry. So 42% is [indiscernible]?

Yes, yes, out of 44%, you can take about 9% to 10% increase in the average increment that was there for -- that was given in April. And then you look at the reset of employee costs for IT folks was across the industry, almost doubled in some cases. In cases where you really need skilled employee and as a company, which is heavily into technology, we need to retain talent. And therefore, we had to increase the salaries for those employees. Although we have taken some corrective actions in terms of resetting the engagement with external resources, the consultants that we used to hire. So we have cut down cost on that front while retaining the talented employees and therefore, the increase in cost. We believe this is not recurring in nature. This was onetime reset that was necessary given the market demand and supply situation in this area. And this is something, which we will see is already easing out. Now we see in the last quarter, the cost is actually stabilized. It is not going any further. And we do expect that in the coming financial year, we will not see something like this happening.

But even if I look at Q-o-Q, what we heard is that now there has been a lot of firing that has been happening globally and -- but if I look at our Q-o-Q employee cost ex-ESOP, even that has increased 20% Q-on-Q. So I'm just a bit confused.

Sorry, Q-o-Q, the employee cost has come down.

Ex-ESOP, excluding ESOP cost? ESOP cost is INR 16 crores for this quarter than INR 30 crores during the last quarter.

That's the impact of the increase that we have done vis-a-vis last year. If you see, last year, there was no reset of IT costs. This year, there is a reset of IT cost. So it will have that impact until the financial year ends. So you will continue to see this impact on quarter-on-quarter, because of the onetime reset that was done. So it is not that it will have only one quarter impact. It is a reset of the entire cost. Amit, do you want to add anything?

Yes. So I think you are referring, not really sure -- I'm not really sure in terms of the numbers, right? I mean, on the employee cost, I mean, for the quarter, I mean, we had INR 72.5 crores right versus INR 76 crores in the last quarter. So that's a 5% decline. And if I reset the number based on basically excluding the ESOP cost, then basically still my cost is down by 3%, because my ESOP cost was INR 1.6 crores for the quarter, and last quarter it was INR 3.1 crores. So excluding the ESOP cost also the overall employee cost has been down on a quarter-on-quarter basis as well. So like how -- what Sreekanth and Vivek was mentioning that there were a couple of reasons why, on a Y-o-Y basis, for the full 9 months, I mean, why the cost has gone up for a couple of reasons in terms of the reset in the IT salary, the addition of the Hexagram team as part of the core team. And then the investment that the company did in terms of setting up the whole, the sales organizations in terms of basically beefing up my AIF and the Fund Administration team in India and then also adding our people in terms of for the Southeast Asia business as well. So some of these elements have added up to the cost on a Y-o-Y basis, against which the matching revenue, we are yet to see. I mean, we are already seeing a lot of fraction in terms of building up the pipeline for the international market as well as the number of mandates that we have been able to add in the AIF business. So that is all because the last 1, 1.5 years, the way the team has been built and the organization that we have set up in these some of the new and the younger businesses, that is something that is adding up to the cost, but we'll see the corresponding revenue in the subsequent period as we go on.

The next question is from the line of Ajox Frederick from Sundaram Mutual Fund.

Sir, my question is on the International Service Solutions. I noticed that the AUM has come down, but still we were able to do very well on the year-on-year numbers. So what is the revenue model here? How are we pricing the client? Is it on AUM or transactions or how do we do it?

Yes. So please read that as International and Other Investor Solutions. So that also includes revenue pool coming from AIF business as well and National Pension System. Yes? And the International business itself, yes, the AUM has come down, because of mark-to-market reduction in most of the operating geographies there. Yet there has been an overall revenue increase close to 45% in the overall international piece. Alternate investment funds have contributed to 42% plus growth. Wealth management pensions, pensions have grown nearly about twice as fast in the previous quarter. The International Mutual Fund solutions itself has had a 5% growth despite a mark-to-market reduction in the AUM.

Which means that the yields have gone up for that international invest based solution?

That's correct. So broadly, our asset mix and the yield, our yield is roughly about 5 basis points in international operations and overall asset quality has improved more towards equity. And also some of the clients who have been transitioned into later part of the year, now we have full year's revenue coming in.

Got it, sir. Got it. That's very helpful, sir. Just one question on the ESOP. So what's the pending ESOP outlay we have probably for the next quarter or for the next year?