Klépierre SA (LI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone. I'm very pleased to welcome you today with Jean-Michel for the 2019 full year earnings of Klépierre. We will make a short presentation and we will leave the floor to the questions. So starting with the presentation. I would like to make a statement that 2019 has been an additional year where we have keep on executing our strategy, which we believe is a winning strategy in retail environment, which is transforming. And this is a year where we have posted robust results. And the cash flow net -- sorry, the net current cash flow per share is growing by 6.7% to EUR 2.82. And this is the outcome of a strategy that we have started 5 or 6 years ago. And 3 pillars of this strategy are very clear to us. The first one is to focus on preeminent assets in large cities and large catchment area, and we'll come back on that. The second one is to have a platform where the teams are customer-centric, and I would say also, customer-focused or even obsessed by your customer satisfaction. And the third pillar is the financial discipline. And these are the 3 elements for us to weather the retail transformation that we are all facing. The first pillar is clearly to be focused on large cities, large catchment area where the population is more than 1 million inhabitants and the average revenue per capita is 20% above the national revenue per capita. And we have today made a fantastic -- over the years, a fantastic refocus of the portfolio, and Klépierre today is more than just 100 properties, representing 96% of the total value. And this was 94% in 2017. So we think we have achieved today a fantastic refocus, and we'll continue disposing noncore assets, as we have done this year, but most of the refocus is achieved. The second pillar is to be customer-centric. And I think we have -- because of the size of the platform and because of the quality of the team and our pan-European footprint, we have deployed a very systematic approach. And we have -- you will know for 4 pillars. The first one is Retail First, and Retail First is all about changing in the mix and improving the quality of retail and also hosting new occupiers in our malls. The second pillar is Let's Play. Let's Play is to make our malls more entertaining and to increase engagement and loyalty. The third one is Club Store. It's all about making our shopping center more pleasant, to improve the customer journey and to have a sense of hospitality and to offer a seamless experience to our customers. And last but not least, which is not something we do on the side, but which is Act for Good. Act for Good is to make sure that our operations and growing our cash flow is also made with a sustainability approach and that we want our operations to be sustainable. And we can measure it, and you will see during the presentation that it's not only a vision, it's something we can clearly measure. We have growing sales. Sales are doing better than national indexes. We have also a very strong occupier demand. It's not only a retail demand but many type of occupiers. We are also changing fast and adapting the mix in our malls. And we have an increasing satisfaction that we measure with NPS and NPS in our portfolio has increased by 8 points in 2019. The third pillar is to be financially disciplined, and we have continued in 2019 to dispose non-core assets. We have sold for a little bit more than EUR 500 million, with a 6.8% net initial yield. We were 6.1% above book value. And with the proceeds, we have done some share buyback as planned, with a 8.9% cash flow yield. And we have also reinjected the proceeds in very accretive pipeline projects, I will come back on that, with a 6.6 yield average. And when we look back at what this has been doing over the last 5 years, you will see that the cash flow of Klépierre has increased by more than 30% since 2015 and the net debt-to-EBITDA has decreased also very significantly from 9.2x to 8x. And in that -- in view of this strategy and our earnings in 2019, we are going to present to the shareholders a dividend of EUR 2.20 which is an increase 4.8% compared to 2018 and we are pretty confident for the future because we think the strategy is very clear, the strategy is paying off, and we have a financial discipline that will also pay off. So we have basically 3 items you need to keep in mind. We a low OCR, the -- probably one of the lowest in the industry. We also have low net-debt-to-EBITDA, a reasonable payout and we can easily invest in our properties and deploy our strategy. If we focus now to 2019. 2019 has been a very strong year in terms of net rental income like-for-like. We can see that we are positive everywhere but in Germany and we are posting very strong results in Iberia, 7.8%; Netherlands, 5.5%; Italy, 3.2%. And this is also one of the benefit of being pan-European, in that we can take advantage of the different macro economies that are in Europe. They are never all synchronized but over the time, this is a great support of the resilience and the growing cash flow for Klépierre. And we have also significantly increased our specialty leasing income by more than 7% in 2019. We have been also very, very dynamic in terms of leasing. The number of leases is almost 1,600 and the average reversion is 8.2%. And this -- as you can see, more than dynamic in Iberia and Italy where we are a double-digit reversion, and we are also posting excellent figures in the other countries, but in Germany. And when we look at the other main KPIs of 2019. We can see that the EPRA vacancy rate is 3%. We are back to the level we were before we acquired Corio, if you remember, 3%. So this shows that the platform, through the various disposal, is improving constantly. The bad debt, which is also a sign of the solidity of our tenant base, is at a record low at 1.6%. And the occupancy cost ratio, as I mentioned, is pretty stable, around 12.4%. And this has been done in a retail environment where sales are growing. Sales are growing almost everywhere but in Scandinavia. And we have seen over H2 a slight improvement compared to H1. And the growth of sales over 2019 is double than the growth we have registered in 2018. And we actually focus a little bit on 2 pillars and what we have done this year on 2 of our operational pillars. The first one is Retail First. And Retail First for us is to proactively adapting the mix to consumer expectations. And we have been doing that for more than 5 years now and we did it proactively. The second one is to ease the transition to omni-channel. What does it mean? It's to provide to the retailers, the best real estate for them to invest into their stores and to adapt their new format. And we are doing this also to take advantage of the retail concentration to make sure that the investment from our retailers are made in our malls and not in the competing schemes. And when we look a little bit more in the details, we have categories where the retailers, we are -- we have a very strong deal flow with our key accounts, and we keep signing a lot of deals with all of them. And those are a few examples out of the 1,600 leases we have signed, but you can see that, with Inditex group, we have signed more than 20 deals and reach more than 40. So we keep on leveraging the platform, the leading platform in Europe. We are also attracting new players. It's something that is more and more important in our leasing strategy. We have a few names on the page, probably a few of you are aware of or used to see them. SHEIN is the first one. It's a fashion retailer. We have done fantastic pop-up stores with them in France and they have been attracting a lot of customers. It has been really great. Hawkers is sunglasses. They were only an online business and now they are opening in stores. So it's a mix of Automotive, as you can see on the slide. Automotive is also a way for those brands and those banners to showcase their innovation. As you know, automotive business is transforming fast. So they use our malls as the best way for them, the best media to reach their customers. It's DNVBs. And also what is quite in line with our actual good strategy is to give a chance to local niche brands that are also very attractive. We are also widening the offer in our malls. So from a value retail -- from value retailers to upscale brands. In Emporia, in Malmö, we have a mix of hub, and that probably you don't know, it's a little bit an equivalent to Primark or Action but we also have a Chanel store and we have a Hugo Boss. So we are also enlarging the offer to reach more customers. We are also supporting brands that are going retail. They are retail brands, but they were not used to have shops in malls. A few example, like Dyson, we have opened 6 stores with Dyson in our malls, and they are also doing fine. We have all the worldwide. MI, doing in great. Daniel Wellington, this is watches, also developing fast in our shopping centers. And last but not least, we are offering more than shopping. We already mentioned it many times. We -- in our strategy, which is, Shop. Meet. Connect., we need to offer more than shops. So places where people can meet and connect and have other reasons to come to a mall. So 2 examples which are very opposite, I would say. We have opened a 4,000 square meter hospital, it's a real one, in Guimarães in Portugal. And we have opened a ballet company, a ballet studio, Field's, in Copenhagen. And in terms of numbers, the -- we are moving fast. We are changing the mix fast to adapt to the retail transformation and the new customer expectations. And a few numbers here in 2019. This is the number of stores that have been renewed, released in percentage. You can see that in Milanofiori, in Milan, we have changed, in a year, 36% of the mix, upgrading it; in Oslo, it was 22%; Parque Nascente, 18%; in Aqua Portimão in Portugal, 16%; and in La Gavia in Madrid, 15%. So there are also tremendous numbers which give us comfort that the leasing is very vibrant. And we also measure it by the investment that the retailers are doing enough. We are very careful that when we do a releasing or a renewal, the retailers are making the new store format and that they are investing in their stores. And when we measure it, in 2019, it's almost EUR 500 million that has been invested by our retailers in our malls. And I think it's a good sign that they favor our mall long term. And the second pillar is Act For Good. Act For Good is not something we do on the side to tick the boxes, this is something we have put in the middle of our operations. We think there is a growing and growing aspiration from the customers to have operations that are more sustainable, more local and more social. And this strategy is clearly embedded in our leasing and Let's Play policy. And we are moving fast, we are moving fast and we are doing very well. So we have decreased our energy consumption by 29% since 2013, and we are clearly on track to reduce our energy consumption by 40% in 2022. We have also completely renewed our energy supply. We have more than 93% of our electricity which is purchased from renewable sources. And we have, as you know, a target in 2030 to be -- to have a portfolio which is carbon neutral. And when you look at the chart, we have decreased by 72% our carbon footprint since 2013. So we are also moving fast in that direction to answer to the customer aspirations. And our portfolio also, we have -- we are the first REIT in the world to have its portfolio certified as a portfolio by BREEAM. And when we look at the outcome, 95% of the portfolio is either excellent or very good. And this was a target we had for 2022, and we had achieved it 3 years ahead of time. And we are also engaging with our communities to make our shopping centers more local and more social, and this is just one example of what we are doing. We think that the community of people working in our malls, they need to have a sense and a purpose in coming -- in working in our malls. So we have deploy an app which is called Let's Join, which is an app where we share information and services and dedicated services to the retailer staff and to the suppliers staff, and is doing pretty well. And when we measure the satisfaction of our customers, we have our NPS, Net Promoter Score, that has increased by 8 points since 2018, which is a really great achievement. And now focusing on the capital allocation. In 2019, we have sold or signed agreements to dispose EUR 645 million of non-core assets. There were -- it was done at 6.1% above book value, which give us comfort about the valuations. And this was done at a 6.8% net initial yield. And this was a little bit inflated by the disposal in Central Europe where the yields are historically higher. So when we took out the Central Europe disposal, we were around 6.3%. And we have, as I indicated, reinvested in -- accretively in our portfolio. We have done a share buyback. We have done a new development project, and I will come back on that. And we have also done a small but very interesting acquisition by taking 10% of Belle Épine, which is one of the largest shopping center in the south of Paris. So '19 has been -- the milestone in '19 for the development activity has been the opening of Créteil Soleil. This is a 11,000-square meter extension. It was 100% let at opening. It was a yield on cost of 6 -- 6.1%, precisely. And since opening, the footfall has increased by 19%. And Gran Reno, this is -- the construction is underway. We are pre-let at 56%. This is a 25,000-square meter extension in Bologna. This is one of the wealthiest region in Italy, I think it's even the wealthiest region. And as you can see, we have a lineup of tenants, which is also very attractive. The next one on the agenda is the extension of Grand'Place. It's in Grenoble in France. This is an extension of 16,000 square meters. We are already 56% pre-let. You can see that we -- this is -- one of the tenant would be Primark. I think this will help us to increase the footfall of this already 11 million footfall shopping mall. And work should be started H1 2020. And now, I will leave the floor to Jean-Michel to go through the financial numbers.

Thank you, Jean-March, and good morning, everyone. So let me start this finance section with a traditional one, the bridge of our net current cash flow from 2018 to 2019. As you can see, we continued to grow our cash flow at a sustained pace. For 2019, we posted a 6.7% growth. Once again, it is a very solid performance. As in previous years, the main driver of our net cash flow growth is a 3% like-for-like NRI growth that Jean-March mentioned earlier. The reduction in our financial costs also contributed to the cash flow growth quite substantially. I will discuss this in more detail in the next slide. Regarding the capital allocation. The dilutive impact of disposal completed in Italy and Hungary at the end of 2018 and the disposal in France, Portugal and Hungary in 2019 were slightly higher than positive contribution from recent development and the share buyback. You may recall that our share buyback program is implemented at a similar pace as a one-off disposal. Overall, excluding a EUR 0.03 one-off -- finance one-off element, our net current cash flow grew by 5.6% to EUR 2.79 per share, well above our initial guidance of EUR 2.72 to EUR 2.75. This one-off element, just to come back on this, is a financial income of EUR 9 million, corresponding to the compensation received by Klépierre on a cash deposit we made to the tax German authorities in connection with the tax litigation incurred by Corio prior its merger with Klépierre. A quick word on our cost of debt now. As you can see on this chart, it continue on its downward path to reach a low 1.45%. As you remember, we mentioned in our half year 2019 presentation that we still had EUR 1.8 billion of debt at an average cost of 2.7% to be financed by 2022. We will get some of the benefit of the refinancing in the next 18 months, as we expect to get lower coupons, bearing in mind that we have already swapped to float some of them when interest rates were higher, that is to say, a couple of months ago. This should allow us to keep lowering our cost of debt going forward, considering especially the outstanding access to liquidity we have. I think this access to liquidity is one of the main strengths of Klépierre. As shown in this chart, our credit spread is one of the lowest in the REIT industry. This is a consequence of the strength of our balance sheet and reflects of A- rating in which we are well-anchored with an outlook stable. We checked the solidity of our credit when we last issued a bond in June 2019. We got 45 bps, as you probably remember, for an 11-year maturity, pointing to a 0.625% coupon. Looking at today's market condition, despite a slight increase in spread, we would get the same pricing as the spread increase has been offset by the decrease in interest rate. So no material change on this form, very good condition -- financing condition for Klépierre going forward. In 2019, our net debt decreased by EUR 45 million, let's say, broadly flat, and stood at EUR 8,830 million at year-end. Consequently, our net debt-to-EBITDA declined to 8x compared to 8.3x last year. This, combined with the 6.5 years average maturity of our debt, make our financial profile even more robust. Let's look now at valuation, the valuation of our portfolio. I would like to underline that the investment market has comforted us to a certain extent. First, we have seen landmark retail transaction in the continent that give good signs of liquidity for quality asset at decent prices. And second, as Jean-March said, we have been able to sell for EUR 530 million of worth of asset above book value. So we are confident that the values in our book reflect what the market currently prices. Overall, the change in the second half, minus 1.1%, was quite similar to what we have seen in the first half. I remember you, it was minus 0.9%. Our EPRA net initial yield stood at 5%, a 10 bps increase compared to 6 months ago. In relative terms, compared to a blended risk-free rate of 0.7%, the net initial yield of our portfolio materialized a 430 bps risk premium. This risk is the widest seen in a decade. Some remember probably higher yields in the past, but never such low risk-free rate. The slight decline of the portfolio value was entirely due to a minus 2.3% market effect, while the cash flow effect was slightly positive, I would consider this is probably the main thing and the most important one, at plus 0.3%, as illustrated by the change in the appraiser main assumptions. Indeed, when looking at the changes, and again, to give you more details on what -- how the valuation have been done. In this assumption taken by the appraiser compared to 12 months ago, it's worth noting the broadly stable discount rate, which is a consequence of a higher risk premium and a lower risk-free rate. The exit rate increased very slightly. On top of the [indiscernible] I've just mentioned for the discount rate, this change was also driven by lower indexation going forward. The decrease by indexation by valuers has been up for about 13 bps into discount to cash flow calculation. It's also worth noting the change in scope, that tends to lower the discount rate and the exit rate, as the assets sold in Hungary and Portugal were yielding higher. Regarding the NRI forecast, thanks to healthy renewal and despite a slightly lower indexation assumption, NRI growth forecast is an average 2.4% and was lowered by 12 basis point. Moving now to NAV. The evolution, the portfolio valuation I just described below translate into EUR 1 decline in NAV per share, minus 2.3% over the 12 months, which stood at EUR 39.50 at the end of December 2019. The main items explaining the evolution are a strong cash flow generation, EUR 2.82 per share, more than offset by the portfolio downward repricing, EUR 1.44, and the dividend payment for EUR 2,010 (sic) [ EUR 2.10 ]. ForEx and other operating and financial costs were responsible for an additional EUR 0.20 reduction in NAV. This mainly includes nonrecurring costs that were not fully offset by the impact of the disposal above book value and the relative effect of the share buyback. Our triple net NAV stood at EUR 37.40 per share or a 4% decrease. Gap compared to NAV reflect the impact of the fair market value of the fixed rate debt, which was hampered by the drop in interest rates, especially during the first half. Before moving to the dividend payment, I would like to dwell on our uses and sources of cash. Once again, in 2019, our net current cash flow more than covered the dividend and distribution to minority partners as well as maintenance CapEx which amounted to EUR 98 million, of which EUR 25 million are recharged to tenants, and below last year level, which were EUR 127 million. As you can see on this slide, our cash flow was even sufficient to finance a large part of our EUR 205 million in development CapEx as well. Our second source of cash comes from the disposal proceeds, which reached EUR 537 million. EUR 300 million were -- of this was allocated to our share buyback and roughly EUR 90 million to the acquisition of a 10% stake of Belle Épine, a leading mall in Southern Paris, already managed by Klépierre for many years. The balance between these different items went to pay down our debt, as I told you previously, minus 44 -- EUR 45 million. Last but not least, to conclude this financial part, a word on the dividend. At the next shareholder meeting, we will propose a dividend of EUR 2.20 per share, an increase of 4.8% versus last year. This represents 79% of Klépierre net current cash flow group share, excluding the one-off. This sizable increase demonstrate our confidence in our ability to keep delivering sustainable dividend growth going forward. The distribution of the EUR 2.20 breaks down, EUR 0.76 for the SIIC, EUR 0.59 for the non-SIIC and EUR 0.85 as an equity repayment. At -- as last year, the dividend will be paid in 2 equal installment of EUR 1.10, the first one in March 11; and the second one in July 9. And as a very last few words because I can't resist. I wanted to comment on this graph. As you can see, growing the dividend regularly is a long-standing tradition in Klépierre. Indeed, it never decreased over the last 20 years. As Jean-March mentioned in his introduction, we believe it should continue going forward. This is all for me now. And I leave to Jean-March the floor for a quick conclusion and the outlook.

So thank you, Jean-Michel. Just a quick wrap up. This has been a very good year, 3% like-for-like net rental income. In the current environment, this is, I believe, quite outstanding, that confirmed the quality of the strategy. 5.6% net current cash flow when we exclude the one-off, that's also very strong. We keep disposing assets, EUR 645 million above book value. We do it at our pace. We keep the leverage in our peer group at a low level, 8x net debt-to-EBITDA. We have a strong balance sheet to finance our development and our organic growth. And we pay a dividend which is 4.8% increase to last year. I think it was a very good year. When we look at 2020, we are also very confident to continue growing the business and growing the cash flow. And we will propose a guidance for the net current cash flow to be between EUR 285 million and EUR 290 million. You have to keep in mind that we have sold more than EUR 500 million, so we are also losing cash flow. We are offsetting it with the share buyback. But the guidance also take into account the fact that we are a net seller in 2019. Now I will leave the floor to the questions in the room and online.

So Florent Joubert from ODDO BHF. So I would have 3 questions, if I may. So first question, about your reversion in Iberia and Central Europe. So you have huge reversions in this country in 2019. So how sustainable are this reversion in the future? So this would be my first question. Second question. Is it possible to have maybe more colors about your expectation in terms of disposals of nonstrategic assets for 2020? And maybe third question. So we have seen that we have a repricing of your assets, so in H1 2019 and at the end of 2019. So what is the comfort of this repricing? So do -- are we to expect another repricing at the next publication? So what is your opinion on that?

Okay. Thank you. Your first question was about the reversion in Central Europe and Spain?

Yes.

I think the fundamentals of the economies in Spain, Portugal and Central Europe are -- fundamentals are very strong. So we have a GDP growth in Central Europe which is exceeding 3%. We have sales going up also more than 5%. And in Iberia, the GDP growth is a little bit softer than the last year, but it's one of the highest in Europe. So we are benefiting from a recovery cycle and also a boost of GDP. There are exceptional numbers, so we don't expect to do that forever. But we are also very, very positive for the new years to come. We have a portfolio which is very well positioned in those countries. And they are also very well occupied. There is a great tenant and occupier demand for those malls, so we see growing sales, we see retailer demand. So we are very positive that the reversion will be strong for the years to come. For the disposals, I would like to -- we keep repeating that we are refocusing, refocusing, refocusing. We have done it. So we have 4% of our portfolio which are noncore assets. So we are doing it. We are selling. Over the last 4 years, we have sold EUR 500 million average. So are we going to do that in 2020? You will see. We are disciplined in refocusing our portfolio, taking advantage of the investment market, doing it above book value. And so we are pretty confident that the values in our books when we are disposing are pretty reasonable, and 6.1% above book value, that's a good number. For the repricing of the asset, this is what it is. So there is concern about liquidity. You all know that. So there is, I would say, a decent repricing. We are comfortable with it. We need to keep in mind that we are in an environment where we are still posting growth. We have retailer sales going up by almost 2%. We have like-for-like growth by 3%. We have a reversionary potential of 8% this year. So the indicators are positive. And so there is a market effect repricing, which is probably the reflection of the investment market. And for 2020 and going forward, we don't do prediction. It will be what it is. We think we have the good balance sheet. We have a strong balance sheet. We position ourself to be, I will say, protected against the cycles, and that make us very comfortable going forward.

Pierre-Emmanuel Clouard for Kepler Cheuvreux. I have a couple of question from my side as well. So just to come back on your portfolio valuation and the decrease that occurred last year. So can you maybe give us the breakdown between big centers and the other centers, especially in France? Also, can you give us the value creation recognized in 2019 with the extension of Créteil Soleil in million euros, please? And on Belle Épine, if I'm not wrong, you are already managing the center. Maybe can you give us the rationale to buy only 10%? And can we expect more on this center?

So I will -- on the portfolio valuation, maybe Jean-Michel, you...

Well, we will not disclose this level of detail of information. But just to say that the scope of yields in France, roughly speaking, goes from 4% to 6.5% or about. Jean-March, you're okay with this? So this is it then. And we have stressed that when we disposed even secondary asset in France, like we did over the past, we did it at book value. So I think, again, we are very convinced that this is very -- our portfolio is valued in connection to the market. We were used to say that it is important to mark-to-market our asset considering that we are also a seller into the market. So the best way to succeed in disposal, like we succeed by selling about EUR 500 million of asset every year, is to go close to the market. On the second question, it's about the...

It's about Belle Épine. Belle Épine, it's -- we are [Foreign Language] the predecessor of Klépierre. They build it. We manage these shopping centers since 1975, okay? So I think it was the right time to put some money in the game. As we said, this is an excellent shopping center. We are very pleased that the owners of this mall has opened the capital to us. We have taken 10%. I think it was a wise investment. And we are looking forward to continue developing this asset as a shareholders now of this asset. So I think it was a good idea. Pretty small investment for Klépierre, but a very good idea. And for those who knows the south of Paris and the number of malls, this is the dominant one in that catchment area. And the third question was?

On Créteil. The...

Créteil, we did -- the total investment cost is around EUR 150 million with a 6% yield on cost. And when you look at the net initial yield of the French portfolio, you can easily measure the value creation we have done on it.

Okay. Sorry. I think we have also some question online. So for one minute, we will go online. Can we get the first question online, please?

It's from the line of Sander Bunck from Barclays

It's Sander Bunck here from Barclays. Two questions from me, please. The first one is on your guidance, second one on the LTV. The first one, the guidance. If I take into account the disposals in 2019 assumes some further disposal in 2020, making adjustment for share count at the financial savings, I actually get to pretty low implied NOI growth. That looks consistent with your commentary around lower indexation expectations for 2020 and a slightly lower MGR uplifts in Q4. Can you just give a bit more comment on what you're seeing in terms of organic growth for 2020? Or is it more that your guidance is again quite conservative? And second one on the LTV, is that you obviously disposed -- made some good disposals in 2019. Nonetheless, your LTV ticked up by around 100 basis points for a variety of reasons. How are you thinking about that going forward? And how are you thinking about buybacks in that light? Are you able to renew your buyback program? Or given the fact that the LTV is picking up now, are you going to put that on hold once the EUR 400 million has been completed?

Okay. Thank you very much. The guidance, it is what it is, okay? We think this is -- in the current environment, we think it's showing growth. We don't itemize the cooking of the guidance. There is a mix of NRI growth, disposals, acquisitions, probably share buyback, and debt reduction and so on. So we don't itemize. But we think we will -- the guidance has been made assuming robust organic growth in 2020.

It's similar to 2019 or lower?

My English, as you know, is limited. So I would say, similar in French, sounds okay. So in English, probably too. No. We are doing well. I think we are 3% like-for-like growth this year. This is pretty good. So we will continue, I think, in 2020, delivering good, sustainable organic growth. When it comes to LTV, LTV, it's a function of value and debt. I think Jean-Michel has clearly explained the financial discipline. The financial discipline of Klépierre is to make sure that we use our capital wisely, and we also use it in a way which is accretive. So it's difficult to predict what we are going to do in 2021 and 2022, but we will continue to be very disciplined, keeping the debt stable. That's the main assumption we have taken over the years. This is the basis of the guidance for 2020. And we have a long-term guidance on LTV that you know, which is to be between 35% and 40% long term. And we are right in the middle, so we feel comfortable.

I am [indiscernible]. I'm back to Belle Épine. You take 10% and how much do you have now in Belle Épine and how much do you pay for this 10%? My second question is on the Slide 23, you talk about turnover. But is it in just in 1 year for this?

So Belle Épine, we can't be more specific. We bought 10% for EUR 87 million. That's it. So consumer?

But we only have 10%. We didn't own Belle Épine before.

You are the first?

Yes. This is the first one.

And how much, please?

I think 80 -- EUR 87 million.

EUR 87 million.

For the turnaround of the retailers, yes, the figures we are mentioning here for the malls are renewals and relating with the refurbs of the shops in 1 year time. That's real numbers.