Konecranes Plc (KCR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon. I hope that you can all hear me well. Admitting a few more participants. Maybe Rosa, you can now then admit from now on. Yes. So hey, welcome, everyone, to our pre-silent call. This is the first ever open pre-silent call for everyone. And we tend to then continue this practice now going forward. It is the recommendation also from the FIN-FSA. So nothing unusual has happened at Konecranes. So there is no such reason for this call. So our aim is to make this now then a quarterly practice going forward. We plan to also record this call just so you know, and I will send when I got the recording. And maybe now in the beginning, it would be good that we have a couple of slides that we will talk you through. [Operator Instructions] So we don't need to be too formal in here. So whatever works the best. But I will now share the slides, just a moment. Now in the presentation mode. Okay. So let's put the recording on as well just a moment. Okay. So welcome, everyone, to Konecranes Q3 pre-silent call. And before we go into more details, and now the presentation is not changing. Here, we have our usual disclaimer. So the presentation includes forward-looking statements. Some general information about Q3 activities and investor discussions and so on. We have met with, let's say, nearly 100 institutional investors this quarter, and then we've also participated in retail investor activities. And we have gathered here maybe the most, let's say, frequently discussed topics. So it's overall market environment, the financial guidance, we upgraded that last -- for a few weeks ago. So that has been a very, let's say, frequent discussion topic ever since. Then, of course, the profitability development, profitability drivers, financial targets and use of cash and overall maybe capital allocation. And then there has been also a lot of discussion around the port cranes market in the U.S. I can now hear some background noise. Maybe -- I don't know if it's only my chat, but something is going on. We have also issued 2 stock exchange releases this quarter. So there was the guidance upgrade, as already mentioned. And then also, we announced the composition of the Konecranes shareholders' nomination Board. And no changes there. So basically, all the previous Nomination Board members will continue. We have also announced a couple of orders during this quarter. And once again, I would like to remind that you should not read too much into these order announcements. So we usually announce orders if they are somehow kind of relevant. There is a business case or they are large ones. And then, of course, we need to have a consent from the customers to publish their orders. So not all good orders get published because the customers are not willing to let us do that, so that just as a reminder. With that, I would now hand over to Teo. So Teo will discuss the demand outlook and financial guidance before we then start the Q&A. Teo, please go ahead.

Thank you, Kiira, and good afternoon, everybody, also on my behalf. A couple of slides here like Kiira pointed out. And actually also said, so we are not trying to convey here any different message than what we have been having regarding Q2 and the updated sales guidance. So nothing dramatic from that point of view has happened. This is just an update, more or less the same story as we have been having also earlier. But let's go through these couple of points anyways. So demand environment, we continue to see a healthy environment level in the industrial customers, exactly as we are saying in this demand outlook or have been saying in this demand outlook. With the port customers, long-term prospects related to the container handling remain good overall. And here, we are also still of the opinion that the decision-making at the customers would be happening, maybe a little bit more actively than before now during the second half and maybe at least one, a little bit bigger deal most likely would be decided during the second half of this year. And I guess that may be addition to the industrial customer segments, while we are saying that the overall environment continues on a healthy level. So also the comment that we have been making regarding the process crane decision-making. So that is also true still, so that the decision-making in the process crane area is on a slower level than what it earlier was, and of course, than what we would like it to be. But the pipeline there also continues to be healthy. So it's, maybe a decision-making timing topic there as well. So then if we move to the next page where we have the financial guidance. And there, we obviously have a change since the Q2 results that we upgraded the sales guidance September, was it now [ 12% ] or something like that, to a more positive one. So sales expected to increase in '24 in comparison to '23. This is not actually a demand environment related change. This is more delivery capability-related change. So we have been having good delivery capability year-to-date by the end of August, say, and of course, now the smaller part of the year is to grow. Our confidence level when it comes to the overall sales development for the whole of '24 is, of course, on a better level than what it was earlier. The only, maybe demand related topic from that point of view is that the short cycle product order intake during the first half of the year has been quite okay, for example, in components. So it was maybe a little bit better than what we expected. And of course, the short-cycle product in a way, impacts then already '24 sales. So this is maybe demand related, but it has actually happened already in first half, not during the third quarter. And then we have also been discussing a little bit about the sales growth in the second half in comparison to the first half. So year-on-year sales growth in the second half in comparison to first half, and we still think that it is likely that the sales growth in the second half is lower than the sales growth was in the first half in a year-on-year comparison, even though the gap now is smaller than what we thought earlier because of the better delivery capability, which is also underpinning the sales guidance change. And then we also are still of the opinion that the third quarter margin -- EBITA margin -- comparable EBITA margin will not be higher than the second quarter, even though, of course, there also we have a little bit more positive situation than what we thought because of the delivery capability. But the overall comment that we came, in connection to the second quarter, still is valid in our opinion. These were basically the comments that I thought would be, maybe suitable at this point of time and maybe then Kiira, would we then go into the Q&A. I think so because that's what the slide says.

Yes. Let's start with the Q&A. And I think, Daniela, you have already raised your hand.

I have 2 questions. One is just more shorter term. If you could give us maybe a little bit more color in terms of in those industrial equipment segments, what are the more lively ones in terms of customer end markets and the less lively ones? And then the second one is more just thinking about the medium term. Can you update us where the U.S. stands now regarding that STS crane substitution from the Chinese? And also how -- what's your capacity to produce there? And what are you seeing in the industry? I think there's been some new entrants announcing sort of intents of expanding capacity there? So any color on that would be super helpful.

Maybe we can start with the U.S. discussion first. The situation continues to be very similar to what it was in connection to the second quarter announcement. So apart from the, let's say, a little bit additional color in terms of sort of capacity or subcontractor network topics. So in the big picture, there is a lot of customer interest, particularly into those Build America, Buy America cases, because the customers have the opportunity to apply for subsidies in case the domestic content is high enough. So we have those kind of opportunities in the sales funnel. So there are discussions about those deals, which would be including BABAA subsidies, but we do not have closed deals, so that we would have those already in the order book. So there is interest, but it hasn't really materialized in any material way yet. What we are doing regarding the supply, so that we will be able to provide the domestic content to an accurate level or appropriate level, is that we are building subcontracting networks within the U.S. So we are working together with several subcontractors so that they would be able to be part of the supply chain in providing the domestic content for those cranes that require it. And we are of the opinion that we can actually receive orders where domestic content requirement is on those BABAA required levels. But of course, the reality is still the same, that no STS cranes have been built in the U.S. for decades. So of course, everybody has included and the supply network obviously also will need to be prepared that there is a learning curve in that one and that the delivery times are not necessarily super fast, but the network is being built. This is, of course, a business opportunity to us, at least on a long-term basis. Time will show that how big a business opportunity it is regarding the STS in particular. And as it is a business opportunity to us, so of course, it may be a business opportunity to many other companies as well. And as a result of that, probably it's only natural that some other players have been expressing interest in this kind of Buy America, Build America concepts also. If I then move to the first part of the question, which was that how are we seeing the customer segments in general. So there is no major change there either in comparison to what we have been discussing earlier. So the overall situation continues to be that maybe if we take a look at the industries, so Pulp and Paper was showing a little bit, let's say, more -- a little bit higher activity than we had some time ago. On the other hand, then maybe in some other areas, the situation is more or less stable or in some cases, a little bit down as well. But overall, the general manufacturing, that is the decisive thing from the order intake point of view, particularly for standard cranes, has been quite stable from the overall activity level. And the only exception to this sort of picture is then that the decision-making in process crane deals continues to be a little bit on the slow level, probably because of the interest rates, even though there is now, of course, movement there as well. And then the -- maybe also the late [ cycliness ] that we have in the business.

Thank you. Then I think that Johan, you have raised your hand. So please go ahead with your question.

Yes. Just a short question. If you can say anything about how pricing is developing, if there's a difference between the different product categories for you or different segments, considering some of your input costs like steel, I guess, is coming down, et cetera?

Steel has been coming down. And then, let's say, some of the more relevant raw materials have been, maybe more stable, at least not going up, if we put it this way. And of course, as we have been discussing earlier, so this kind of environment is somewhat easier for us than a situation where raw material costs would be going significantly up. . So we probably have been benefiting a little bit of this that even though we pass on the raw material costs to the customers. So in a situation that steel cost, for example, goes down, it creates a potential for a small positive pricing delta for us. I would not exaggerate the impact of that one, but it probably has been there. And we are expecting that, that may continue to be there in the near future because of the trend, as you described. We are still in the mode that we are increasing prices actually. So if you take a look at the least priced products, so we have increased prices in '24 as well. Of course, not at all in line with what it was in the earlier years as a result of the inflation, but list price products have been increased also this year. And also, of course, in service, there are price increases because of the labor cost continues to go up more or less similarly to what it has been doing in the previous years. We are quite comfortable with the overall, let's say, pricing situation when it comes to the order book. So we do not see major negative deviations in comparison to the situation than it was earlier. So we have been able to price inflation into the customer prices and the sort of healthiness of the order book, in our opinion, is good.

Thank you. Then I can see that Mikael, you have your hand raised. Please go ahead with your question.

Yes. Just firstly, on the -- we talked about the U.S. opportunity and we talked about STS cranes. Just wondering how broad is this opportunity, your view? Is it just about the ship-to-shore cranes? Or would you say it's kind of a broader opportunity with other equipment as well?

That is, of course, a good question. Currently, it is an STS opportunity, at least when it comes to the discussions on the tariffs. So the discussion is very focused on ship-to-shore cranes. Whether it then will spread to other product categories is probably then more up to the political decision-making first and foremost, and only then after that one, a commercial topic. Of course, our situation then when we compare these product groups to each other is very different. So of course, we have been maybe a little bit more like niche player or opportunistic in the STS cranes. Of course, in the ASCs and RTGs and other, let's say, yard cranes, this, of course, is our bread and butter business. So from the strategic point of view, the discussion will then obviously be different. But so far, it has been very much focused on the STSCs. And as this is at least partially a political topic and the subsidies, of course, are completely a political topic, so it is the decision-making done somewhere else than in our company that then is decisive from that point of view.

Okay. All right. So that kind of remains to be seen then if...

That remains to be seen, yes, correct. But we have a completely different position -- market position, of course, in, say, ASCs and RTGs, for example, in the U.S. than what we have in the STSCs. So that's why this STS example is an extreme example because we do not really have a very high market share globally or in the U.S. We do, of course, deliver STSCs to the U.S., but it is quite a lot, let's say, Chinese crane base overall in the U.S., if you take a look at the whole STS fleet.

And the STS that you currently deliver, all of those produced in China?

They are basically all subcontracted in China. So China is and has been -- has been and is an extremely efficient place to manufacture large steel structures. We have, of course, capability of building networks elsewhere as well. Now we just discussed about the U.S., but not only in U.S., in Eastern Europe and elsewhere in Asia Pacific as well, but the reality is that these have been coming from China.

Right. Right. Right. No, that makes sense. And then just on different topic. I mean I guess we've been receiving a lot of weak data points from Germany, in particular, recently. A lot of companies at various conferences say that they really don't see any improvements there. Just wondering if you could just shed some light, what do you see currently in that specific market? Do you also see that as relatively stable? Or have you seen any kind of change there compared to previous?

We are, maybe feeling the sentiment, sort of negativity, as you pointed out. So of course, when customers are discussing about these things, and we are discussing with our customers. So the overall macro data or the weakness of that comes through in the discussions. But so far, the situation has been, regarding Germany, that our business has been doing better than what the macro data has been showing. And of course, a very good question then is that would we be immune in Germany to the macro overall industrial development? My guess would be that we would not be immune so that the impact would be coming sooner or later, if this continues for a very long period of time. But when we take a look at the situation currently, how it is. So the demand has been resilient and the overall feeling in our business is better than what the macro data suggests. And this may be true or at least the situation is decent when it comes to the demand in Northern Europe in general and also, of course, U.K. -- or not, of course, but in our case, also U.K. Then when we go more to the south or southeast of Europe, so there, we have the more concerns. But of course, the big question going forward is that if the German macro data continues to go down, and the overall industrial activity will continue to decrease. So would we be unimpacted. I think that on a long-term basis, it would be logical that we are impacted. But when we take a look at the situation of the funnel currently, so it is decent.

Then I can see Tom, your hand raised. Please go ahead with your question.

Yes. Kiira and Teo, perhaps on Germany, you could disclose just how large is the German car industry of your sales, not for 1 year, but generally, over the years and is it very large in the service business?

It is important for service business, yes. We haven't given the percentage on a country level or actually even unfortunately, on a regional level. On a global level, maybe Kiira remembers, I think that the car industry has been somewhere between 4% and 6% of the overall sales.

We haven't really even communicated that figure. We usually keep only the order intake split by different segments, but...

Yes. But that is kind of the main worry for you in Germany, I guess the automotive industry?

There is a lot of talk about the auto industry and how they are doing. And of course, auto industry for the overall German industrial manufacturing and industrial economy probably is important. So of course, it is an important topic for us directly, but then also indirectly, because it is probably driving quite a lot of the subcontracting industry within Central Europe and Germany, in particular, but Central Europe in general.

And then in the U.S., some companies highlighted in the second quarter, that decision-making times showed signs of getting prolonged and so on. I mean, having done this many years, I've seen that when the Americans brake, they brake aggressively. But you don't really see any signs that people want to wait for the election and see what happens to new policies, and it sounds like you are still quite positive on demand in the U.S.

We have been quite positive on demand in the U.S. and the sales funnels there also continue to be in good shape. We are seeing in the U.S., slowness in decision-making in process cranes. So U.S. is no exception in that sense. So the decision-making slowness is also in the U.S. when it comes to the process cranes. So these bigger ticket items, so there we can feel it. But I wouldn't say that it would have happened now during the summertime. So this is something that was there already in the springtime and started to be visible already in the springtime. And of course, as we are a cyclical probably after all, so still, even if there are some, let's say, changes in the interest rate policies, et cetera. So maybe we would not be impacted immediately. But I wouldn't say that there has been a deterioration. The slowness regarding process cranes has been there and continues to be there.

Yes. I think that we have talked about that already since Q1. So it's nothing new in that sense. And I think that we started to see some signs already maybe towards the end of last year. And we also then discuss that, I think, in connection with the Q4 report.

And then in this, you have talked about technology packages for ship-to-shore cranes, but I don't really know the situation in RTGs and RMG cranes. I mean ZPMC is very strong in the U.S. also in those type of products. Is there some kind of push also to change to Western technology in those steel frames or...

That would, maybe be -- I think that, that this was already -- this is more or less the same discussion that we had a little bit earlier. The logic could be the same. But as said so far, the discussion at least from the authorities point of view, has been quite a lot focused on STSCs. But of course, there are, maybe similar -- let's say, maybe the similar logic would apply to other cranes as well. But the discussion for one or another reason hasn't really gone there.

And then just generally, I mean, about the cycle, are you like in expansive mood? Do you recruit people? Do you invest in the future? Or are you kind of -- more kind of thinking about protecting the margin going into next year, just general?

We are, let's say, in the recruitment mode when it comes to the service technicians, for instance. So that is clearly an area where we are expanding. Of course, that is partially as a result of having had, let's say, shortage of technicians over a little bit, let's say, a longer period of time already. But in many countries, we would be hiring more there. When it comes to the overall factory situation. So from that point of view, our delivery times start to be on a fairly normal level. So we had, of course, a long period of time that -- in the industrial equipment business as well, we had very long delivery times. Now we are in more, let's say, normal situation there. So we do not have those kind of bottlenecks, and we do not have late backlog in the way that we used to have. Of course, in the ports business, of course, the delivery times are still in the order book quite long because of the subcontracting capacity. And then, of course, we haven't yet guided '25. So we cannot unfortunately go too much in detail into what kind of a year we would be expecting '25 to be.

Thank you. I think it's now time to hand over to Erkki Vesola. You were the next one in line. So Erkki, please go ahead with your question.

I'm not trying to be repetitive here, but how would you describe the aftermarket activity in industrial equipment as the industrial capacity utilization that has been on a downward trend in the EU and in the U.S.? I mean, if you've been kind of outperforming the market, how would you explain it? Is it just your favorable customer mix or customer industry mix? What's the situation?

It is probably our, let's say, yes, it may be that it is a customer mix to some extent because we have, of course, been trying to focus on the customers where our service offering would be most beneficial from the customer's point of view because, of course, customers use their cranes differently, and the ones that use it in the way that outsourced preventive maintenance would be benefiting most. So then, of course, we would be focusing on these ones. And as a result of that, maybe we have been able to expand the share of customers' wallet. So that even if the overall utilization rates have been going down, our order intake and sales have been growing. So in that respect, I think it's a good question. We have actually been doing better than the overall underlying market development, most likely has been, because of the utilization rates having been declining in Western Europe and Northern America. So basically, we have taken market share in that sense and probably, it has been share of customers' wallet and to some extent, of course, then new customers. But primarily by focusing on the customers that can benefit most. And when they understand they can benefit, they are willing to expand the scope of the service, and we have been able to sort of get deals or expanded deals as a result of that one. So expansion of the agreement base/spin-off business is, maybe the reason.

And then if you bring so much value add, that has obviously given you more freedom in pricing as well. Am I right?

Of course, it is so that if we can provide significant value add, it improves our possibility of getting margin there as well. And I think that it is, maybe mostly manifested in the way that when we have customers who can actually get benefits from our newer service products, say, these kind of digital features that we are providing also within service or service product development in a way. So these are usually, let's say, good from the margin point of view because they usually make it easier to do things that earlier took a lot of time. So customer had to close production for 4 hours or a full day. Now we can help the customers to do those kind of things much quicker. And those are, of course, very value adding from the customer's point of view. And they, of course, allow a higher margin for us as well. The overall, of course, situation still continues to be that our own service technician utilization rate and then the density that we can have, obviously play a major role, but these consultative products are important as well.

Thank you. And now, Johan, I can see your hand raised again. So please go ahead.

Yes, just coming back. I mean, we discussed the port cranes in the U.S., and we are seeing political action on that front. But how is the impact elsewhere in the world? I mean, we are obviously not yet seeing at least political actions in Europe in the same way to sort of reduce exposure to Chinese ship-to-shore cranes, et cetera. But are you seeing any reactions among your customers that they are sort of tilting more towards your solution? Next time, Maersk will build a new port in Tangier, they might buy a ship to shore from you? Or how is the sentiment?

There clearly is a discussion, and that discussion is also -- it's happening also in the newspapers. So the news agencies are having this discussion as well. But I wouldn't say that we would be able to spot a large amount of concrete opportunities as a result of that one. So customers in Europe are very well aware of the discussion that is ongoing in the U.S. and governments in Europe are very well aware of the discussion that is in the U.S., but -- so that we would be able to flag a large number of opportunities as a result of that, at least not yet.

And in ports, we are seeing obviously Cargotec, now Kalmar having left the big crane area. If you look at your competitor situation in the industrial crane, I mean, it has been a much more fragmented market. Obviously, you sold STAHL to Columbus McKinnon, et cetera. Any sort of news on what's happening in that industry? Any big changes?

There are no big changes. And I guess that the reason why in this industry, it is hard to achieve any big changes in a short period of time is that it is so very local business. So basically, you need the front line in the country or in the area where you are selling the cranes because the customer -- usually, in small deals, the customer wants to have a local contact with whom to discuss, et cetera. The -- maybe the only thing that we have been now referring to lately is that when -- over the years, there's been a lot of discussion about the Chinese competition. So we are seeing maybe somewhat more Chinese hoists in other emerging markets. So on top of China, that is. So, say, Southeast Asia, maybe South America. They are not necessarily physically present, but they are selling hoists and then they have a local crane partner who builds the crane. This competition from our point of view, though, primarily happens in the so-called low segment. So -- which would not necessarily be, let's say, our cup of tea anyways in these emerging countries. But maybe now that we have been -- I don't even know how long, at least 15 years, 10 to 15 years, we have been discussing about the Chinese competition that how would it go outside China. So we are seeing, maybe more signs now than what we have been seeing before, that emerging markets may be seeing Chinese hoists, not North America or Western Europe, more like South America type of markets.

And coming back to STAHL, I mean, how has that business developed since Columbus McKinnon took over? Is that part of your market share gains, you think?

I would not necessarily make a reference to STAHL in particular. I would think that the overall market share changes have been probably relatively small. I think that we have been doing well in the Americas from the market share point of view in the industrial crane area. But regarding STAHL, obviously, it was quite a lot European brand. I don't know if there is any major change in the European context as a result of that one.

We still have a couple of more minutes to go. So okay, Tom, already fast.

Yes. I, of course, asked many years about capital allocation long-term plus acquisition plans, but it's a different situation with your balance sheet now and your dividend compared to your earnings per share. It's like at some point, you need to decide what to do, and you can always just repeat what you have said that you have all alternatives. But could you please open a bit more? I mean, are there many attractive companies that you could start buying and I don't know, turning to a more kind of a repetitive acquisitions? Or is it so that the service targets, for instance, they are always blended with all kinds of other service operations that you are not that interested in getting on board, for instance, then?

There is a list of potential acquisition targets that -- and basically, the list is quite similar to what it has been for quite some time. So of course, there is a very limited number of new entrants into the business. So we basically know, from the service point of view, which companies we would like to acquire. And the discussion is then probably more on whether the target happens to be available because these are, in many cases -- not always, but in many cases, these are family-owned businesses, and then, of course, if the price is right. And as we have been saying, we have activated ourselves in sort of going through the list and seeing that how we could be able to approach and maybe do acquisitions a little bit more than what we have been doing in the, let's say, recent history. But unfortunately, more than that, in a way, concrete, we do not have to add on this topic. All the options remain open, as you rightly pointed out. And we would like to allocate more cash to acquisitions than what we have been doing, for example, if you take a look at the period 2018 to 2023 into acquisitions.

When you look at Fabio's presentation that he showed to us, your market shares are still in many products like just 15%, 20%. And I mean it seems to be possible for other companies to take it up to 30% or 40% or so with acquisitions, I mean, meaning that competition authorities approve it. And earlier like -- I mean now we are getting through this period, we are closing loads of factors, you have -- you're introducing modular products. I mean does it make more or less sense now to go out and consolidate the market further in industrial cranes?

If you take a look at industrial cranes, so I think that there, the situation is that from the -- as we saw in the MHPS transaction as well. So it may be difficult to buy, let's say, component manufacturing companies in that would have a market share -- significant market share in Western Europe or in Northern America because the component manufacturing is much more consolidated than the crane manufacturing. So there are fewer component manufacturers than there are crane manufacturers. So we are delivering to many independent crane builders. But then when -- if you take a look at Asia Pacific, so of course, our market shares also from that underlying component platform point of view is lower. And in Asia Pacific, maybe from the competition law point of view, restrictions would be less than in Northern America or Eastern Europe. The challenge in the industrial equipment acquisitions basically, not always, but in many cases, it is that what are you actually acquiring. So if you are acquiring a facility, it's not necessarily something that we would be needing. If you are acquiring, let's say, product platform, we would probably replace it with our existing platforms anyways because they would be better. And then if you are acquiring installed base, so that is then obviously clearly more in the service side already. So from the service point of view, it makes sense. But from the manufacturing point of view, it is not necessarily very straightforward that it would be a value-increasing transaction. Because they would, in many cases, be, let's say, then restructuring costs involved anyways.

And I don't understand this because Fabio showed that you don't have a higher market share than 25% in any segment. Did he not refer to the component business than it was to fully built cranes or...

That would be a crane market share in...

What is your market share for components then?

If you take a look at the Northern American and European, so they are basically at the time of the MHPS acquisition, we were somewhere there, 30% to 40% in those areas. Now of course, we haven't updated this number. But the structure of the market is not significantly different than what was at that time.

And we had to divest STAHL back then due to this fact...

That was exactly the reason why we had to do it. So it would have been even higher. So that was the reason. But this, of course, like I said, this primarily concerns Western Europe and Northern America. And then when we go into the Chinese market or Japanese market or those, let's say, other big APAC markets, maybe apart from Australia, the situation may look different.

Okay. So the market share is really 30%. That's the right understanding basically?

From the technology content point of view, it is -- in developed markets, it is relatively high, and that is the problem from the antitrust point of view.

Now we still have like one more minute left, but I have seen that Mikael has been trying to get his question through already for quite some time. So if it's a short one, I'll let you ask it.

It depends on how long Teo answers. But I wanted to come back to the aftermarket business. I mean you -- as mentioned previously, you have been growing in a good way there, outgrowing the market. So just wondering if, I mean, conversion rates, for example, have they also improved there in the last couple of years? Do you still see further improvement potential there? That's one part. And the other part is on the predictive maintenance. So where are you there? Are you monetizing on that already? Could that be a significant driver going forward? Just trying to get a sense of what are the drivers for that growth overall?

Yes. I try to be short. The conversion rates have been improving, particularly -- well, they have been improving also during the past couple of years. It is not like the tremendous improvement from one year to another one. But generally, the trend is good. From the predictive maintenance point of view, there, I think -- we have been doing progress there, and it is benefiting our business. It's making us more efficient. The discussion there, of course, is exactly what we were having already earlier. How can we find those customers that would be benefiting the most of the new activities that we are providing. And when we can identify those and provide the predictive maintenance to them, we have a significant potential in providing value added to them and then at the same time to us.

Good. I think it's now time to conclude. So thank you all, and if you don't remember, the Q3 report will be out on October 25, Friday, and then we'll be hosting the normal as usual analyst and investor webcast then. And then I mean, when it comes to pre-silent calls, so we will schedule a new one for, let's say, mid-December and have that published on our IR calendar well in advance. Thank you all for the active participation. And if you have any feedback or any wishes regarding any, let's say, meetings or pre-silent setup, so feel free to send me and Rosa, an email.

Thank you very much.