LAMDA Development S.A. (LAMDA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. I'm Konstantinos, your Chorus Call operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the LAMDA Development conference call and live webcast to present and discuss the full year 2024 financial results. [Operator Instructions] The conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Odisseas Athanasiou, CEO. Mr. Athanasiou, you may now proceed.

Thank you. Good afternoon to all of you, and thank you for the time you are putting in this attendance. I will start with the main financial results for the group, and then I will pass to the individual businesses and specific areas of interest. It was a good year for LAMDA Development with net profits increasing by 71% for a total of EUR 46 million. EBITDA for another year showed an increase this time of 30%, reaching EUR 171 million and this number does not include any valuations. It's a pure financial number before valuations. Apart from this, our cash collections for Ellinikon were impressive, reaching EUR 1.1 billion, out of which close to EUR 600 million were collected in 2024, the year that just closed. Another good aspect, included in this result is the performance of our operational businesses, malls and marinas. For the first time, EBITDA exceeded EUR 100 million, reaching EUR 106 million, the majority of which was from the malls, EUR 87 million, and this was an increase of 9% versus the previous year. Marinas contributing EUR 20 million, again, an increase of 8% versus the previous year. And it's worth noting that after 2017, every year, these 2 businesses saw record results with the exception of the 2 COVID years. But other than this, every year, we have a new record in our EBITDA numbers. Now looking at some cash numbers and ratios. Our cash increased actually from EUR 488 million to EUR 680 million at the end of this year. And while our debt was constant, close to EUR 1.2 billion, this results to a net debt of EUR 0.5 billion for 2024, resulting to just 15% ratio of net LTV. And this is, again, the comparison of the EUR 0.5 billion net debt compared to our value of our portfolio, which was EUR 3.5 billion. NAV, and this is the last number I mentioned in this section. NAV is EUR 1.445 billion and showing a slight increase from the EUR 1.392 billion of last year. The net -- the debt that I talked about before, the EUR 1.1 billion comes from 2 areas. One is the 2 bonds that we issued in 2020 and 2022 totaling EUR 550 million, with the rest being a debt almost exclusively in our malls business. Now I will go, and I will narrate some things about the specific areas of business starting, of course, with our malls. Apart from the EBITDA increase that I talked about before, the good thing is that all our leading indicators show very positive signs. Leading indicators are those numbers that if they go well, it means that we can implement the annual increases and without burdening our tenants. The first one of this is the footfall. It was 26 million visitors for all our 4 shopping centers. Advertising income increased also, reaching EUR 4.5 million. This is an increase of 26% versus the previous year. Occupancy is at 100%, cash collections at 100%. And last but not least, are the tenant sales that reached almost EUR 900 million and this is an increase of 5% versus the previous year and is another historical record. All these indicators have resulted to a valuation of EUR 1.5 billion for our 4 shopping centers. Now apart from the centers in operation. As you know, we have 2 centers under development in Ellinikon. The first one is the Riviera Galleria in the Marina of Agios Kosmas. We have already signed head of terms for 77% of the GLA of this shopping center. And another good thing is the rent, the average rent is EUR 85 per square meter of GLA. Again, ahead of our budget. And the construction works have started. The first phase has to do with the concrete structure, and it has already advanced. We believe that constructure for this shopping center will have been completed by the end of 2026. In the Vouliagmenis mall now, we expect to get offers for the first phase, the early works and the second phase in April, which means we can most likely have a contractor for early works in May and start mobilization within the year and construction within the year for Vouliagmenis mall. Regarding signing of head of terms, we have exceeded the 60%, and this is on the 100,000 square meter GLA for this mall. We also expect for both shopping centers to have signed final documentation for loans within half 1 of 2025. The terms have already been agreed. I'm passing now to -- before I go to Ellinikon, the marina numbers are also well. We had an increase of 9%. And I remind you that last year, we signed also the concession for the new marina we're going to develop in Corfu. EBITDA for this -- for the 2 marinas in operation, as I said at the beginning, it's close to EUR 20 million, which is also a historic record for our marinas. Going to Ellinikon now. The labor shortage continues to exist, creating problems in the construction area. We have seen some alleviation in the last 3 months after the state decision regarding the NOC regulations, but we believe that this alleviation, this relief of pressure in the labor shortage, probably it's not going to last forever, and we're going to see signs again probably after 2, 3 months. We have explored, as you know, and as we have said in the past, possible amelioration of this problem by contacting people in foreign labor markets. And if we see the pressure coming back, we will be needed to bring some of them to our construction areas, and we'll do so. The main -- the 2 main areas in which construction has suffered in our works at the Riviera Tower and the infrastructure works. Starting with the latter, we are seeing some progress with [indiscernible]. At the same time though, we have seen some new obstacles. The obstacles have to do with challenges arising from new regulations and as an example, I will give you, regulations coming from [indiscernible] irrigation network, asking for pipes, for example, of different diameters and different depth. This is something new, which creates need for redesign and for construction of works that have already been done. We're not talking about major delays, but we're talking about changes. Another change may come, for example, from [indiscernible], asking for new requirements for low voltage network. All these adding up creates some problems, and that's why we have some delays coupled, of course, with the fact of the labor shortage that we have seen in the past. However, we think that the main deadlines we have in infrastructure, which have to do with the coastal works close to the Riviera Tower, close to the marina, close to the villas and the condos are -- the target we have are attainable, and they are for finishing these works by the end of '26. Regarding now the other area, the other problematic area which is the Riviera Tower. We are working with Bouygues. And Bouygues have ensured us that they can achieve a rate of [ 3 ] slabs per month before the summer of this year, which means that the Riviera Tower could be completed by the summer of 2027, delayed compared to the original schedule. But at least at this moment, Bouygues is saying that they can commit most likely to this deadline. Other than this, we have good progress in all other areas, which include the condos. The -- we have 2 main architect works in the condos area. As you know, the Bobotis and the ISV. The Bobotis say the complex is going to be ready within '26, before the fall of '26 and the other -- 1 block before the end of '26 and the other by Easter of '27. The sports works are on schedule, which means some of the sports area venues will be ready by the end of '25 and the rest by the end of '26 again, on schedule. Same thing with the park works that are starting now. And other than this, just as a summary, we have 14 work fronts open, which include 5 resi developments, which -- we have called them Little Athens and they are the neighborhood starting above the condos and all the way towards Alimos. So we're in full progress. We're doing them with internal -- with an internal business unit we have developed over the last 10 months, and they are all ahead of schedule. Now passing to another area, which is the pricing and the commercial area in general for our resis. As we said before, we have collected in total EUR 1.1 billion, from resi sales and land plot flat sales, out of which close to EUR 600 million came last year. Apart of this though, we are doing well in the average price we're selling these units. Demand remains very, very strong. 82% of all the units we have brought to the market in Little Athens have been already agreed and the pricing is better than what we had in our original business plan. Average pricing for the 5 developments in Little Athens are from EUR 7,200 to EUR 11,000 for the [indiscernible] per square meter, of course. The 2 agreements we had regarding education are also on schedule. Geitonas School and the University of Nicosia and -- have said that they would start their first operational year in '28, the latest fall of '28. And it will start to work soon achieving this goal. These for us were agreements, 1 leasing agreement and 1 sale of that plot. And the last thing that I want to mention regarding Ellinikon is a tender that is now in progress for sale of 3 land lots for a total of 39,000 square meters of GFA. We will have news regarding this tender by the end of May. Other than Ellinikon, the last thing I will say regarding our results is the sales of noncore assets, which, according to our strategy, were for sale, we have this target for the last 2 years. We completed them in 2024, getting EUR 45 million in cash. And the sales have to do with the Cecil office building; the Serbia land plot, SINGIDUNUM, if you remember the name of it; some office building in Romania. And last, the sale of Kronos parking for EUR 3.5 million this last one. I talked about the Corfu marina. We signed the concession. We're going to start work with a target of '29 being the first full year of operations. And at this point, I complete my narrative for the financial results and what I think are the main areas that I want to cover. I will pass the floor to Harris Gkoritsas, our Group CFO, who will walk you through the important highlights of the financial results, and then we can go to the Q&A session. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Odisseas. And on my end, let me also thank everyone for attending today's results presentation. We are particularly pleased to report another record-breaking set of results from the group's business segments. My presentation will begin with a discussion of the key financial highlights for the group's 3 main business segments, followed by the most important features at consolidated group level. I will make reference to specific slides on the results presentation, and I will start with LAMDA malls. The 4 operating malls broke new records for yet another year. In fact, the 4 operating malls delivered their strongest fourth quarter in history across almost every performance metric. The key highlights of the full year 2024 performance were a new record of retail EBITDA before valuations at EUR 88 million or a 9% increase year-on-year, driven by 8% increase in net base rents as well as a 14% increase in parking revenue and reflecting the continued solid growth across all key performance indicators, namely tenant sales, average spend per visitor and footfall. Moreover, in the -- during 2024 in our 4 operating malls, we signed new contracts or renewed existing contracts with tenants, which are expected to generate an annualized base rent income uplift of 8% going forward. To highlight these outstanding leasing efforts during 2024, the relevant annualized base rent income uplift from renewals and re-lettings in 2023 was 4%. We continue to believe that in the context of an unsupplied market, LAMDA's unique market positioning as well as the performance of our 4 malls in operation leads us to think that LAMDA malls' asset portfolio is very conservatively valued relative to our peers in Spain and Italy. So we expect also upsides from this front going forward. For a detailed analysis of the LAMDA mall's group financial results, please refer to Slides 15 to 19 as well as on to Slide 34 to 38 in the appendix of the results presentation. Moving on to our marinas. The performance confirms for yet another period, as Odisseas mentioned, very steady growth trajectory, breaking new records in the full year 2024 results, both in total revenues, delivering a 12% increase and in EBITDA, generating 8% growth. Both Flisvos and Agios Kosmas registered 100% of occupancy in permanent beds while the strategic position in the [ Athenian riviera ] enable them to benefit from yacht transit a fast-growing segment of the market. For the details on marina financial performance, please refer to Slide 20 of the results presentation. And now we turn to the landmark Ellinikon project to the financial performance of 2024, which has been exceptional, breaking new records across all metrics. I will start with EBITDA before asset valuation that increased 50% versus 2023 to EUR 97 million, driven by a combination of revenue recognition on residential developments as well as the highly profitable recent land plot sales. The operating profitability growth resulting in the realization of almost EUR 18 million net profit for the year compared to a net loss in 2023. We also note that we anticipate recognizing some EUR 30 million of accounting gross profit in the first half of 2025 relating to the recent land plot sales to third parties. Detail on the Ellinikon P&L can be found on Slide 25 of the results presentation. If I comment a little bit the cash collected for the Ellinikon project in 2024, those reached EUR 589 million, of which EUR 312 million or approximately 50% relates to the costal front and the Little Athens residential projects. The cumulative total cash proceeds from project start and until end of February have exceeded EUR 1.1 billion. I will reference to Slide 22 of the results presentation for more relevant details on cash proceeds. Moreover, and in the context of the all-important issue of the timing impact between actual cash collections and P&L revenue recognition based on accounting rules, the deferred revenue, practically this is the cash collections, not yet recognized as P&L revenue based on construction milestones reached EUR 286 million and is booked in our balance sheet other payables. To highlight the strength and growth of the Ellinikon operations, let me point out that the total cash balance of the Ellinikon increased by EUR 161 million in 2024, reaching EUR 292 million at the end of the year. Moreover, for yet another year, nonbank loans have been utilized despite the committed credit life from a syndicate of Greek banks, which implies a cash reserve for the Ellinikon to continue funding its progress of works. All of the above more than highlight our strategy for a self-financed residential project on the back of a successfully tested design, sell and build model that got introduced in the market. Now a few points on the financial elements for the construction progress for the Ellinikon. The total CapEx for building an infrastructure jumped 45% year-on-year to EUR 248 million in 2024, bringing the cumulative total CapEx from project start and until end of 2024 to EUR 564 million. Details related to the Ellinikon infrastructure work and building CapEx can be found on Slides 24 of the results presentation, while Slides 40 to 42 contains the visuals of the project works. Moving now to discussion to the group level let me pinpoint the following. On the back of the aforesaid record-breaking performance across all our main business segments, consolidated revenues amounted to EUR 665 million or 48% growth year-on-year with consolidated EBITDA before valuations reaching EUR 171 million or a 30% year-on-year increase. On the back of this significant operating profitability growth, group consolidated net profit reached EUR 46 million or a 71% growth year-on-year, and the details can be found on Slides 8 to 10 on the results presentation. Group net operating cash flow reached EUR 358 million, which is a 3x increase compared to 2023 and is the largest driver for the increase of the group's total cash to EUR 679 million at the end of 2024. Net asset value reached a new record, as Odisseas mentioned, of EUR 1.445 billion or equivalent to EUR 8.28 per share. Zooming into the breakdown of this net asset value, which can be seen on Slide 13 of the results presentation, LAMDA malls NAV surpassed the EUR 1 billion mark, accounting for more than 70% of group NAV. The Ellinikon project NAV is almost EUR 360 million, accounting for about 1/4 of group NAV. I will once again point out the strong belief that the Ellinikon project NAV according to IFRS rules currently reflects only the land acquisition cost and the relevant infrastructure investment for the residential project. Thus, it's clearly understating the substantial hidden value from the commercialization of both the costal front and Little Athens residential projects, which are in the market currently as well as the true market value of the land plots, which based on recent transactions were sold at over 3x the book value. This makes us believe the current -- that the current group's market share price clearly underestimates the significant growth and value potential of both the Ellinikon and LAMDA malls. As a closing remark from my side. I will note that the full year 2024 results were another testimony of the group's execution of its strategic plan as well as the continued delivery of solid operating profitability growth for all its business units. We strongly believe that LAMDA Development has a unique investment case on the back of its best-in-class operating business segments, namely our malls and marinas as well as the landmark Ellinikon project, which has already delivered tangible operating results for yet another year as well as early signs of the massive hidden value from future land appreciation. With that, I conclude my section. Thank you for joining us today, and we can open the floor to Q&A.

[Operator Instructions]. The first question comes from the line of Svyriadi, Natalia with Eurobank Equities.

I hope you can hear me. I would like to say a bit on the Ellinikon project, and the cash proceeds we should be expecting in 2025. You definitely surpassed your target in 2024. So I was wondering if you could give us an update on what you're thinking for 2025. And if you have any more residential units to add for sale, there are 559 in Little Athens. I guess you have more of them to go for sale. So I would like some color there. And I also have a question on CapEx. I don't know if you want me to say it now or we can take it after that. So we can take it one by one.

Regarding the cash from resi sales, we expect about EUR 550 million. And mind you, we also have EUR 200 million of sales that happened in 2024 that were planned for 2025. But anyway, we expect at least another EUR 550 million. And we have a delay by the way, in some projects that we're bringing to the market and the delay is because of the change in our designs that we have to do after the decision of the sale that you are well aware of, but we expect this to come to the market towards the end of the year. So to be conservative, we're saying EUR 550 million is our base for cash collection from resi.

Okay. Great. And I would like also some color on the CapEx we should expect in the current year with this sports park also going and the residential units you're planning and Agios Kosmas Marina starting altogether. So...

Yes, all inclusive in Hellinikon S.A. We expect about the same amount that I gave you for the revenue, about EUR 0.5 billion as a base for CapEx in '25.

Okay great...

Natalia, just to color a bit, this includes CapEx for the residential projects, plus also the other developments plus the infrastructure work.

Yes, of course, the infrastructure and buildings. Okay, great...

And it does not include the malls, the 2 malls, which we consider separate, outside of the Ellinikon.

Yes. Now that you said about the malls, you have -- could you update us a bit on the terms? You have secured financing for the malls. Could you remind us a bit what's the theme there?

Yes, yes. We are proud to announce that we have closed all the paperwork and we have signed the loan for the Riviera Galleria. We believe drawdown will happen even this month. Just to mention that Riviera Galleria as Odisseas mentioned has already started and was funded so far with our equity part. Now we have around EUR 185 million of signed loan, which includes around roughly EUR 40 million of VAT. And this secures the total construction of Riviera Galleria within budget and within timing as Odisseas has mentioned. In terms of the bigger mall, the Ellinikon mall, ex Vouliagmenis mall, we are finalized -- as Odisseas said, we are expecting to finalize a little bit the offers to secure the final number for the construction. This obviously needs to happen first before we sign the loan with the banks. We do not expect any deviation from the head of terms that we have agreed, but you will allow me not to comment any numbers on that we have Vouliagmenis mall. We can comment them around half -- mid of this year when we will have also the final numbers on the construction. Final point on that is that with our own efforts, with our equity, we have progressed also that. All the earthworks have completed. And of course, we are expecting to start the main works there.

The next question comes from the line of Caithaml, Jakub with Wood & Co.

This is Jakub from Wood. I wanted to follow on the discussion of the malls. And first, just to confirm I understood correctly, did you mention earlier that the average rent, which has so far agreed in the heads of terms for both of the retail assets within the Ellinikon is EUR 85 per square meter. Do you hear that right?

Yes, for the Riviera Galleria, correct -- I repeat, the EUR 85 number was for the Riviera Galleria, and the average for the Vouliagmenis mall, it's EUR 52 per square meter.

I see. And then on the 2 malls, again, just to check I understood correctly, you expect both of them could be operational in '26?

No. We said that the construction completion for the Riviera Galleria is expected by the end of '26, construction completion. And construction completion for the Vouliagmenis mall, end of '28.

I see. And for Riviera, what does it then mean for opening?

Sorry, Riviera, what do this mean for?

So when it would be open to customers?

This time we're discussing with our tenants, most likely beginning of '27. What we are controlling now is the construction that is going on schedule, no delays at all. And if this continues, by the end of '26 construction will be completed. And as I said, we are in discussions with our tenants to see what is the best time for opening for them.

Right, right. And then another follow-on question on the CapEx discussion. So you went over how much has been spent to date. And you also suggested how much we can expect in '25. Can you remind us for the projects which you group under the Ellinikon umbrella, so the infrastructure and also the residential projects and the various other projects outside of the malls. What is the total spend that is remaining, not only in '25, but sort of until the end of the first phase?

Yes. For -- until now, we have spent EUR 600 million in CapEx. We'll give you now the breakdown, but in total, it's EUR 600 million, and we expect about EUR 500 million for 2025.

Mr. Caithaml, have you finished with your questions?

I was meaning to ask sort of until the end of the first phase, how much do you expect to spend for all of these Ellinikon projects combined still, not only in 2025 but also in '26 and '27 and potentially '28?

To put the total phase, which ends in '27 and part of this in '28, especially the Vouliagmenis mall, we expect about EUR 2.3 billion.

Still outstanding or including what you have spent already?

Total EUR 2.3 billion. As we said, half of that -- EUR 0.5 billion has already been spent by end of '24, and we expect another EUR 500 million to EUR 600 million in 2025. So by the end of 2025, we do have spent around EUR 1.1 billion. And out of the total EUR 2.3 billion, so you can expect the rest EUR 1.2 million in '26, '27 and most probably something in '28.

Perfect. And then outside of that would be the 2 retail assets, Riviera Galleria and the Ellinikon Mall, correct?

Correct, correct.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from the line of [indiscernible] with [ Pantelakis ] Securities.

I wanted to ask about the Vouliagmenis Mall. You did say about agreements averaging at EUR 86 per square meter for the Riviera Galleria. Is there a similar figure available for the Vouliagmenis Mall?

Yes -- sorry, did you finish?

No, no. You can answer this one, and I will follow up with...

For the Vouliagmenis Mall, it's EUR 52 per square meter. It's of course, a totally different mall. The 1 on Marina Agios Kosmas and Riviera Galleria is about 20,000 square meter GLA with a lot of F&B, smaller stores. And the 1 on Vouliagmenis is the biggest mall in Athens, in Greece. It's going to be 100,000 square meters GLA. So we have more anchors, more big stores like Zara, H&M, and that's why the 2 rents are different, EUR 52 for one and EUR 87 for the other.

Okay. And I wanted to ask about the profitability of the buildings aside from residencies. This land plot has building allowance of 2.7 million square meters, of which 1.2 million resi, what is the remaining? Can you give us an idea? I understand the malls are included in there, plus the hotels that are going to be built. What is the rest? Can you give us an idea of the profitability of this square meters?

First of all, as you said, we have the 1.2 million square meters of resi. Then we have apparently the retail, which in terms of GBA is another almost 350,000 square meters. We have the hotels, as you said. Another big area is the office area in which we have close to 300,000 square meters, 270,000 to be exact. And then we have some administrative buildings that are included in the total EUR 2.7 million (sic) [ 2.7 million square meters ]. And we have sports venues and stuff like this. So the profitability is very different in terms of by area. But...

I understand, yes, for each one is different. Let's say, for example, the athletic buildings, the sports facilities. How do you think about them? I mean how do you -- how would you go about making money on this investment?

Okay. First of all, there are some venues that we create that add to the overall master plan. In other words, they are not adding so much in terms of profitability, but adding to the whole project and therefore, increasing the value of the resi apparently, right? Sports venues is one of them. And also, sports venues were an obligation we had versus the state, to build them and more or less, the sport venues that are in the area of Agios Kosmas towards [indiscernible] let's say, next to Alimos. So having said that, we intend to make some money by leasing them to operators. Some of them will be reputable names. Some of them will be operators who have experience in the area of interest. For example, we have the football venues. We have a track and field. We have a tennis and later -- and the basket venue. So don't expect much profitability from them, expect them to add to the total project, to the total market plan and expect them to make recurring revenues in terms of leasing revenue from the operators.

Okay. Great. And another 2, if I may. Any developments with regards to this business of managing buildings there. The maintenance cost and what sort of revenue do you think you can achieve on this sort of business?

I'll tell you, honestly, it's too early to say. Of course, we are making a business plan because we will start creating this business unit at the end of '25. So in '26, it will be in a stage that can be operational when the first residents are in Ellinikon. Most of them are going to be coming to Ellinikon in '27. We have some numbers, but I will mention a number, which is very, very draft, the number is EUR 30 million when we have the majority of residents in place, which is after 2030 and a much more modest number, of course, in '28 and '29. It is a profitable business. It also adds to the service we're going to provide to the residents of Ellinikon, but the number is very, very draft because, as you can understand, we're collecting costs. It's a new market in Greece, but we think it has a huge potential because if we achieve to create a successful service business there, serving the residents and the visitors of Ellinikon, then we could expand outside Ellinikon. And this is where we see the big potential of this business. But again, we're talking about something 3 to 5 years down the road.

Okay. Great. And one last one, which is a very long shot, basically. What do you think LAMDA would look like when this project completes in 8, 10 years' time? Will it be a business of shopping malls along with some recurring revenue from the IRC and the maintenance business as well as stakes in joint ventures, hotel joint ventures with TEMES and I don't remember which other one. What do you think LAMDA would look like? What is the end picture here?

Right. First of all, vision-wise, we want to be a company that's not a real estate company, but a company that creates venues that offer experiences to people much better than what they have seen before in Greece. And a good example is when we started the malls, there were not malls more in Greece. The marinas of the quality we have were something new in Greece. Same way, now we're creating a lot of venues and many experiences in Ellinikon from creating a park to creating sports venues to creating hotels and all kinds of entertainment. However, what we are doing now is not only creating a mega project like Ellinikon but building a company that is going to be one of the few companies in Europe that can take projects of this scale. So for us, it's not hotels or offices. It's big scale projects. Probably we have the opportunity to do some more in Greece, not at the scale of Ellinikon, but still big. We have already folks from outside the municipalities or even perspectives in Greece that are thinking of doing something that will elevate their area. We can do projects outside Greece after 2029 because the most important thing we're doing now is creating a team. I remind you that we were a company of 180 people that didn't have basically development experience when we started this, the development experience we had took place in 2025 -- sorry, in 2005 and 2006 when we completed Mediterranean Cosmos and the Mall of Athens. Then in 2008, we completed the Golden Hall. And after that, throughout the crisis here, we became a very successful management company of malls and marinas, but no development experience whatsoever. Now we're a company of 700 people, building expertise in many areas. We already have development experience in permitting, in funding, and we are creating experience in design. Now we're creating also, as I said, a unit that will undertake construction works by coming to contact directly with subcontractors. And all this makes us optimistic of how we're going to look in 2028 and even earlier undertaking more real estate projects. Apart from this, on the recurring revenues front, we will have the 6 malls, 4 we have now and 2 we are developing. Probably we're going to have a seventh mall when we find the opportunity. We have 3 marinas, the Marina Flisvos, Agios Kosmas and Corfu. And this is an area where we intend to expand. And along with the marinas, we intend to expand in areas that have a need of marina along with some high-quality residential developments. And of course, as you said, the property and facility management unit, which is going to generate recurring revenue, the discussion we just had before, I said EUR 30 million is the first target coming from Ellinikon, but with a lot of potential outside Ellinikon. So these are the 4 areas I see us expanding real estate development, malls, Marinas and PFM.

[Operator Instructions] Ladies and gentlemen, there are no further questions at this time. The conference has now concluded, and you may disconnect your telephone. Thank you for calling. Have a good evening.