Liberty Global Ltd. (LBTYA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Right. Hi. I'm delighted to welcome Mike Fries, Group CEO and Vice Chairman of Liberty Global with us today at 29th Annual Deutsche Bank Media Internet and Telco Conference in virtual Palm Beach. Mike, for a number of reasons, not least the weather here in London, I'm sorry, we're not together in person. But it's great to see you. Thanks very much for your time today.

Great to see you, too, Robert. Thanks for having me.

So in the fireside format over the next 40 minutes or so, I will ask Mike about some of the key aspects of the business. Attendees at the conference are able to ask questions via chat. We can see your name as the questions come through, but other attendees can't. And I won't name you if I asked one. So don't be shy if you have any burning inquiries later in the session.

I might name you though.

[indiscernible] So Mike, Q4 saw another improving quarter of fixed customer and broadband net adds and a continuation of improvements in video losses. So this was very good to see. And you expect all of the bigger businesses to grow revenues in 2021. Without, you say, a heroic assumption on COVID effects. So why do now things have got better, so much better than they were?

Well, listen. Everybody, I hope, on the phone call is following our results and the progress we had in 2020, where we saw sequential improvement, really every quarter in customer growth. Some of that might be attributable to COVID. I mean, as I've said many times, we're not immune, but we certainly have a lot of strong antibodies in our industry. So we added 80,000 customers, reversing a negative trend last year. We added almost 0.25 million broadband subs, that's threefold more than last year. I'm going back 2020 to 2019, and 0.5 million postpaid mobile subs. So -- and of course, we hit or exceeded our core guidance. So from our point of view, it was a very, very strong year. And a lot of things, I think, were happening. Number one, we were ready for COVID, if anybody could be ready for COVID, right? We had been investing, maybe even overinvesting, in our network capacity for quite some time. And so our speeds were right up there. Our ability to provide reliable and robust services are right up there. We have been prioritizing digital, and of course, being able to, in an agile way, service customers, answer phone calls, in-source call centers, whatever it might be, made a big difference to us. And then we had been really emphasizing the product road map. So we had 1 gig rolled out. We had smart WiFi ready to roll. We had our new UIs and all the things that were there. And that allowed us to really support our customers, give them more data, more broadband speeds, more content. And I think we saw, as I've said before, a bit of flight to quality, where the people sat back and said, "Wow, I'm reliant on this for my business, to talk to my doctor, for my kid's schooling. And so I need the best provider I can have access to." And that usually was us in almost all of our markets. So that was great to see. And of course, we had, behind the scenes, our fixed mobile convergence strategy blossoming, whether it was in Holland or Belgium or even in the U.K., where we launched our 5G services and our old bundles. And as we look out to '21, it feels to us like the businesses are really hitting their stride. So if the first 2 months of the year are any indication, the momentum is still very, very strong for us on the customer side, both in the business as usual markets even in Lightning and new build markets. We've got even more product rollout, so smart WiFi in the U.K. for example. We had the price rise in the U.K. that's helping us there. Some headwinds on EBITDA. And Switzerland, of course, is really humming. Sunrise was already a growth machine. And UPC has continued to turn around. That was so important over the last 10 quarters. So a lot of good things happening. Broadband momentum into '21, some price rises where appropriate. B2B has been a great growth business for us. So a lot of positive things happening, and we are cautiously optimistic. I don't want to be overly optimistic about COVID and how things will evolve here. But from our perspective, we think we look pretty good in '21.

Okay. So it's a bunch of stuff based together all at one time. One area that was tougher was B2B. For a lot of incumbents, businesses deferred projects, stopped upgrading their networks, et cetera. But attacker bundles may have a bit more of an opportunity there. B2B has always been an opportunity for you guys, given your relatively low market share. Do you think it still is? Is it time to push harder? Or is the economic backdrop just a bit too uncertain at the moment?

No. We are pushing. Listen, even despite COVID, we did 2%, 3% revenue growth in B2B last year. And as you identified, we are an attacker still. We have untapped market opportunity with relatively low market share. And as we look out, low to mid single-digit growth, continued growth in B2B looks very reasonable. And of course, in that business, we have 70%, 75% gross margin. So for us, it's a core focus. In fact, we just had an all-hands run through all of our B2B strategies, and there's a lot of drivers. Number one, as we embed mobile into our platform, there are huge opportunities to sell mobile to our fixed B2B customers and fix to our mobile customers. So FMC, fixed mobile convergence, works, and it's a huge opportunity to cross-sell into each of those customer bases. We're prioritizing SoHo and SME. It's always our fastest-growing revenue stream, and we have relatively low market shares in most markets. And there's a ton of really important products like security, cloud-based services and digital, all those things are going to make a big difference to us. Just take the U.K., there's GBP 21 billion market for B2B. We think we have 13%, 15% market share. If you look at the fixed wholesale side of it, we've got backhaul that we're starting to advance really well with people like Vodafone and Three. We've got a huge opportunity to cross-sell to O2's mobile base and B2B customers in the other direction. I'm not going to give you the number, but we have quite a bit of B2B synergy anticipated. And in Switzerland, we have got a 7% market share or something like that. And really, we are the challenger there. So a lot of good things happen. That's before even factoring in 5G, IoT. And I guess, one other point I'd make is we have great partners, right? So we didn't just partner with Vodafone and Telefónica because we had to. They're great, great partners, and we're learning a lot from what they're doing in the B2B space. And of course, they're pros at enterprise. So there's a lot for us to learn from our partners and a lot of untapped market opportunity.

Was the recent 5G, was that partly B2B-led as well on the consumer side?

Yes, absolutely.

Yes. Last year was a very big year for deals for you guys. You kept us all on our toes big time. Those deals have huge NPV synergies. Regarding the deal that closed already, i.e., Switzerland. Please give an update on progress so far. It's only been a few months, but you must be getting under the [indiscernible] and how it's going with integration. On the Q4 call, you said you couldn't be happier. I know in Switzerland, things go like clockwork. But were there really no surprises, good or bad?

Well, let me start with your first comment. We did have a busy year last year in M&A, and it's worth reminding everyone that the 2 transactions we announced represent synergies with an NPV of about $12 billion, of which we will benefit from roughly 65% of. So that $7.6 billion or plus/minus $12, $13 a share, pretty sure -- some of that might be embedded in our stock. I doubt any of it is. It's half our share price. But anyhow. So it was a busy year, but purposeful year. And on the Swiss side, it really is on track. I mean, management team is doing great. Org structure's all settled. We were planning for commercial day 1 this month, which will be really impactful, strong offers. I can't give you any details about that. And we already come into the year with a lot of really a positive advantage. So 5G is rolled out to 90% of the market. We're already 1 gig to pretty much the whole market between our network and use of Swisscom where we have to. Our average speeds, by the way, are like 400 meg into our UPC customers. So a lot of momentum on broadband and customer satisfaction is good and a strong 2020. You saw the numbers, right? We added a ton of customers. We had record sales at both UPC and Sunrise. And a lot of that is carried into '21. So we're really encouraged. And the synergies matter here, right? I mean, we're talking about 3 billion roughly swiss franc of NPV synergies, almost all of which, 85% of which are cost-based synergies. And we'll get those pretty quick. I think we've said publicly, 75% of those will come in the first 3 years, and we're already right at it. And in '21, we've got a pretty big cost to capture. I think we've said publicly, about $150 million, but we'll be getting synergies at the very same time. So I'm really encouraged by it. And it's kind of a 2-horse race in this market. Let's be clear. It's us and Swisscom. They've got 60% share of premium position, no question. But they're losing market share in broadband and mobile, and we're gaining in broadband and mobile. And I think we have a better brand by all standards, perhaps a better network, and a really agile, aggressive and hungry management team. So this is going to be a great business with synergies and FMC tailwinds kicking in, in the next 2 to 3 years. I'm really excited about this transaction and the pace and the success at which we've been able to get it quickly integrated. So we'll talk a lot about it this year. You'll hear a lot about Switzerland.

Yes, absolutely. Sounds great. The other deal, of course, is the U.K. That's still winding its way through the regulatory process. Is there anything to say on that front at the moment? I think you've already had some operators raising their hands as part of the consultation process. Maybe that's normal stuff.

Pretty normal stuff. We're working our way through the CMA. I mean, they're in an accelerated Phase 2, which, of course, has a statutory deadline of end of May, as you probably know. I don't see any reason why this case doesn't just fly through. As you say, a couple of people have raised their hands around wholesale access to the fixed network or backhaul services, or wholesale access to mobile services and the Sky and Vodafone. But I'll tell you, we came out publicly after Sky's submission, which was made public, and announced that we had reached a renewed MVNO agreement with them, and that, essentially, ameliorated or eliminated any of their concerns. And while Vodafone wasn't quite as public, we did the same thing with Vodafone. So I don't really see any issues here that are going to get in the way of this transaction. And of course, we only have 60 working days before the end of May. So we got a lot to get done. And you're talking about GBP 6 billion of synergies. So a lot of premerger planning is already underway. We should be announcing senior management here probably this month. And both businesses had a strong 2020, and that momentum is carried into '21. I think it would be good to get it done. I know a lot of analysts don't have the JV in their price targets at all, either because they might be restricted or they just haven't done the work yet. But as they do the work, I think you're going to find this is going to be a home run. We're going to be the -- huge scale, great growth, free cash flow focus in a market that has a lot of opportunity, so.

All right. Well, it popped something in there for O2 soon after the deal. So that was quite a while ago now, it feels like ages since it was announced, but it's going to be...

We're getting close, 60 working days.

That's not long. That's not long. And basically, once it's approved, you can move pretty quickly, just to close the deal. Is that the way it works?

Yes [indiscernible] absolutely.

So sticking with the U.K. O2 has a national brand and footprint. You guys, Virgin Media has a national brand, but only a 50% country footprint. What's the best way to leverage those 2 sort of characteristics? Is a bigger U.K. fixed footprint, a higher priority post deal? Or can the scale synergy be addressed by other means, such as wholesaling on another platform? How do you see your options?

Yes. Well, there's quite a few. I mean the first point I'd make is everything about this transaction: the strategic rationale, the financial upside, the synergies, the scale, the growth, the stability; all the good stuff, every bit of that is based on the status quo. Essentially, our current network reach. We didn't -- other than a little bit of Lightning every year, as you know. But we didn't anticipate, we didn't budget for and we didn't build into the business model any of the things you're describing. So we're -- we can get to everything we've talked about just with where we are. Having said that, there's a lot of things we could do, right? I mean, we're in a great position, day 1. We've got the largest, most admired mobile network. We have the fastest broadband network bar none, right? We're in 15.3 million homes. I think it's almost 2/3 of the urban markets in the U.K. We've got 8 million, 1 gig; another 7 million 1 gig launching this year. So BT, I think, is at 4 million and maybe the overbuild this 15%. Huge lead in terms of 1-gig services there. And anything we'll do from here to turbocharge that on the fixed side will have to be financially, operationally and strategically accretive. And there are options. As you say, we can stay the course and maybe just accelerate Lightning, which has been great for us and is returning great equity returns. We can, as we've discussed, scale the network further, right? There's another 7 million to 10 million homes we can easily build out. We'd take capital, of course. We would consider partners. We would consider financing sources. There's a lot of things that have to be figured out when we close the deal. I'm not going to prejudge the outcome of that in advance of closing transaction because Telefónica will have a lot to say about that. But we'll look at the amount of capital, we'll look at financing opportunities, partners, wholesale, as you say, value creation. But I see nothing but interesting and exciting things ahead for us on the fixed side. The altnets are doing -- trying to do a lot, but not getting as much done, as we all know. We just follow their own progress. And I think, as I said just a moment ago, this is a 2-horse race. It's us and BT and this market. And will there be 2 fixed networks that reach majority of the country with high speed? Sure. Can we share infrastructure where it might make sense? Heck, yes. And can we do it in a way that we think drives great value for us? If not, we won't. But I think we can. So I'm excited about it. But again, let's not get too ahead -- too far ahead of ourselves. Got to get the deal done. Got to sit down with our partners. We got to see what their heads are at. But I do see a lot of opportunity here and only accretive opportunity. That's the important thing.

Okay. Good to know it sort of all comes on top from what you're already hoping to achieve.

Yes.

You mentioned Project Lightning there. On the call, Q4 call, you said that it wasn't available everywhere. It was a bit slow -- passive infrastructure access wasn't available everywhere. It's a bit slow to kick off. To keep on building, do you need more of that PIA? Or can you kind of do your own thing and you're not hampered by what BT is offering yet?

Yes. Well, we've only had access to PIA for a year. So let's be clear. This is physical infrastructure that allows us -- poles and ducting of BTs the government required them to open up, and it does reduce our cost, almost GBP 200 pounds a home passed. So it's a really important piece of the equation. Having said that, we've only had access to it in 2020, where we -- maybe about 20% of our build was utilizing PIA. We think going forward, that could be as high as 50%. Obviously, it depends on location and planning and all the other elements around network construction. But we're already humming even without access to it, so it only helps. And we'll pivot around where PIA exists. Why wouldn't we? We brought our cost per premise down below 600 for the first time in Q4. And remember, Lightning, we built 2.5 million homes. We're penetrating 25%, 30%. We're getting good ARPUs. In our minds, a great equity return. So it's a lot of good things happening in this construction progress -- project. And I'll tell you something, having been doing it now for 4 years. We know everything there is to know about building. So should we decide to accelerate the build or get -- be more ambitious about a project in this marketplace. We've been at it for a while. We know where, how, when and what it takes to build great network. By the way, at this point, we're building mostly fiber-to-premise anyway. Almost half the homes we've constructed are fiber-to-premise homes and something like 75% in Q4 were fiber-to-premise. So that's also helping the cost and the speed. So we know and are ready to accelerate any sort of construction projects should we decide to do it, based on where our partners are at and where we're at, so.

So you've got a sort of a plan that could be readily scaled, if you so wish...

I think so. I think so.

And you're probably less posited about the recent tax rise proposals in the U.K. than other operators at the moment, because I won't really get to....

Yes. That's right.

Yes, which is nice. Okay. So maybe moving slightly eastward from the U.K., only just eastward, to Holland. There's a kind of a stasis on the Dutch JV ownership at present, and it's working well, but both of you like the asset. Do you see anything changing on a 1-year view there?

Not -- in the next year? I don't know. I would say probably not. As you say, we're both pretty happy. Why wouldn't we be? Arun and his team have done just a fantastic job. I've said in the past, it's like a case study for fixed mobile convergence. I mean, they hit their synergy target a year early. They've got over 40% of the broadband subs now with the Vodafone mobile product. They've exceeded their guidance last year with mid-single-digit. I think 6% EBITDA growth was a final number. They're the first to launch 5G. 1 gig is rolling out. And they've paid us, by the way. You're probably been keeping track of this, Robert, but over EUR 2.6 billion of dividends since we closed the deal to us as shareholders. I think we only have $2 billion in equity in it when we started the deal. So we're already getting our capital back. And they're going to -- they've already guided to $550 million to $650 million this year in '21. So a lot of positive things happening. An IPO is an option, right? I mean, we have the right. They have the right. Either of us can trigger that. A lot of things are considered there, market valuation, demand, leverage, what you -- what kind of price would you put on it based on the leverage? And what would our use of proceeds be? So we're exploring that. I don't know that there's any huge momentum in mind. And then, of course, we do have what we call a soft put, which is the ability kicking in -- really just kicked in last month or in January, sorry, where either partner could say, "Hey, you know what? I'm going to exit. And if you want to buy me, make me an offer." And if they decide not to offer or to make a low offer, then you can turn around and sell the entire company to anybody. So nobody really wants to be on the receiving end of that because it's a drag that -- not a drag, but you can't drag the other partner. So that's -- but that's an option. I mean, that exists for a reason. It's in there to ensure that partners can get liquid if they want to get liquid or force a decision if they want to force a decision. Would we lean into something? Maybe. I think it depends on valuation. We certainly have the capital for it. It would depend on valuation and a number of other factors. But we couldn't be happier with the asset, as you pointed out. And it's proven the model over and over and I'm excited about where it's headed. And it's a very rational market, and KPN has been a, more or less, rational competitor. And they've got a lot of good things that planned -- that they're planning. So it's going to be fun to remain in the partnership, which has been a really good one. But who knows/in the next 24 months, could something happen? Possibly. 12 months, could be a little soon. We'll see.

Okay. I guess you're just about to enter another JV. So it shows you're happy with the format.

Yes.

VodafoneZiggo, it could have been a year ago now, maybe more, announced it was looking at options for its towers assets. Is that something that's still on the agenda for the company? And perhaps a more broad comment, if you don't mind, about how you feel of towers also within the U.K. and Belgium footprint?

Yes. I mean, I think everybody knows about towers. Switzerland has already monetized their towers. I think we have -- let's say, U.K. has probably got 17,000 towers plus or minus between CTIL. That's Telefónica and Vodafone. We'll own, I guess indirectly, 25% of those. There's roughly 3,000 towers in Holland and 3,000 towers in Belgium, which, of course, we own between 50% and 60% of. So there's real value there. Certainly not any value in our stock. If you put market multiples on it, it's probably EUR 1.5 billion to EUR 2 billion of value. How will we monetize it? When will we monetize it? When does it make sense for the opcos? That's all work-in-progress. But it's there. It's -- I don't -- I'm sure nobody is putting any value on it as an asset that could create real upside for us down the road. And we do have options and rights, so let's see what unfolds. But infrastructure has real value in Europe, in particular, so.

With regard to towers, you're not philosophically attached to them for some reason. After all, Sunrise [indiscernible] tower previously.

No. Sunrise did it in advance of our acquisition, but I would say no. We would take the lead, to some extent, from our mobile partners, what they think about it. But no, we don't have any philosophical issue.

Okay. So sticking with the infrastructure point and monetization. Your major asset is the cable network. And do you think that the cable infrastructure could be worth as much as full fiber if a wholesale business was structured in the right way? Or do you have to upgrade to something closer to full fiber to approach equivalent multiples? Basically, what's your view on the relative valuations?

Listen, they're pretty close. Pretty close. Yes, and I'll give you a bit more color around that. Look, HFC is a proven network, right? For 60 years, we have been upgrading, adapting, it's cost efficient. And as we sit here today, there's a reason why in every market we're in, we're the speed leader, right? Because we were ahead of it. DOCSIS is an incredibly innovative platform. We'll have 30 million homes. Really 100% of our homes will have access to 1 gig by the end of this year, 20 million today. Nobody else is doing that. So there's a reason for that. And by the way, we have great -- it's a great ecosystem. Companies like Comcast and Charter, I think they know a thing or 2 about broadband. We're in good company when it comes to HFC. And European investors may not appreciate that or -- I know analysts will. But it's not as if we're out on an island. We run a massive continent of HFC operators, which is a good thing. And by the way, it works brilliantly as a wholesale network, right, because we're doing it right now in Belgium. Just ask Orange, what they think about our access deal. We're not allowed to publish numbers, but there's hundreds of thousands of customers that they've magically connected to our broadband network, NTV, no problem at all. And ask Vodafone or Three what they think about our backhaul services in the U.K., hundreds of millions of dollars of business there. So it's a great network. Could an infrastructure player see the value in that? Of course. We're fiber-rich already today. We have market-leading services, great customer base and a very clean path to 10 gig, if we ever wanted to get to 10-gig through DOCSIS 4. By the way, because we have massive infrastructure, ducts, poles, whatever it might be. We could upgrade the fiber if we wanted to. We already do that in cases. So the path of 10 gig, which is the right thing to think about. It's not a short-term path. It's a long-term path. We could use DOCSIS 4 or XGS Pon, depending on the market and depending on the cost per premise. And they're starting to get closer and closer. So it's an upgradable network. And then you've got footprint expansion built in. So I would not be surprised if you see that happening. We're -- I mean, of course, others have seen the value in our network. Vodafone, BT -- I mean, Deutsche Telekom paid us double-digit multiples for the network not because they felt they were inferior, because they thought they were superior. So there's plenty of juice in the HFC network. It's fiber-based. It's upgradable. It's expandable. It has infrastructure in docking. It works on a midstream basis if you want to, and we are already migrating the fiber as we're doing today with Lightning pretty easily. So it's got a lot of good things going forward, and I think I wouldn't be surprised to see multiples converge on a pure network basis going forward or at least transactions that are based upon HFC only even without mobile synergies.

And I think you effectively said it, but it's not that difficult to adjust the network to our wholesale midstream access. It's not too costly.

No. It works. It was not a meaningful investment on behalf of Telenet. And yes, that wasn't.

Okay. Okay. Would you consider an infra service co-split on cable, like the MNOs are effectively doing with towers? Or is there a better option? Perhaps, it's what you're already doing, just keep clipping the dividends from your subsidiaries at the parent level and buying back more stock. So I guess maybe you keep on doing what you're doing plus perhaps something else. Is it interest...

I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive. I'm not sure they're neutrally exclusive. I think we are absolutely -- and you would expect us to be looking at opportunities to monetize our fiber-rich networks, take advantage of both the existing and future footprint expansion, and look at even NetCos. Why wouldn't we do that? There's a lot of benefits to it, right? There seems to be transparent valuation. There's -- they're imminently financeable partners are excited about it. You can aggressively and rapidly implement. There's operational focus. There's a lot of good reasons. You can rationalize markets by network utilization and grabbing network utilization from the incumbent. So lots of good reason. You got to source some things out, right? What's the impact on your speed leadership? What if any cannibalization occurs? The dissynergies of busting up the ServCo and NetCo. What's the valuation of ServCo? A lot of questions, but they're interesting questions. And you should expect us -- I mean, this is our DNA. You should expect us to look at value-enhancing, value-accretive opportunities to create free cash flow and dividends, as you point out. So I don't think they're mutually exclusive. If we don't do anything, as you rightly know and your own research indicates, we've got a great free cash flow story here. If there are ways to turbocharge it that nobody is baking in, we might look at those as well, and that's what you pay us to do, is to be on our front foot and ready to take advantage of opportunities if they exist. And I don't -- we don't have an necessary philosophical concern around NetCo ServCo. I just think there's a lot of operational, financial and strategic issues that need to be considered, and you should assume we're looking at those regularly.

Yes. It's a complete -- it's a complicated setup, for sure. We don't want any unintended consequences. But my [ word ] is that your ServCo trade at very, very cheap, if not negative, valuation. So I guess it's lots of optionality there.

Yes.

Okay. And something a little less established is your Ventures -- but getting more so is your Ventures portfolio. You put it at -- in your presentation at more than $4 per share at Q4, which was pretty impressive. Now the Skillz's share price has come off a bit since then. But, phew, where did that come from? It's moved up to like $1.35 billion or something in the latest [ standard fine ].

Yes. Yes.

I'm not sure if your valuation reflected that. Clearly, some of your bets have paid off very handsomely. Are you continuing to make more bets? Of the other vendor assets, which are the most unrecognized prospects.

Yes. So thanks for asking that. We really have 3 verticals. I know we put 4 bubbles on that chart on Q4, but really 3. There's tech, there's content in sports and there's infrastructure. And these are sort of distinct and unique and varying degrees of maturity. But the tech one is relatively advanced, right? We've got 40 investments, and 5 of them, just 5 of them, get you to about $1 a share, right? You're talking -- you mentioned Skillz, our mobile gaming e-sports platform, even at the current price, has got a $10 billion market cap, something like that. We got in a fraction of that. We put $14 million in, in 2017. I think our stake is worth $300 million or something. So Plume, as you know, is an intelligent WiFi platform anchored by the pods that drive mesh WiFi in the home, but more importantly, a software back-end that drives device management and all these cool things that have great untapped potential in the home. We put $25 million in a while ago. They did just raise $270 million from inside at $1.2 billion valuation. So that's real money from a real partner. There's 2 more. That's Lacework, which is a security platform for cloud-based apps, and we put about $22 million in that a while ago. They just did a $500 million around and $1.1 billion valuation. So we've tripled our stake in that. Company called Pax8, which is a software services company for B2B companies, SMB market. They just raised money at $400 million valuation. Another one, Aviatrix. So you just take those 5, you get to $1 a share. In the content space, we've got 12 or 13 investments, 5 of which gets you to $2 a share. If you just look at things like ITV at market, we unwound the caller, so we're now -- now we're at about 8.6% at ADP versus where people thought we were, which was 10% at 2 30, A little -- it's a longer conversation, but we're in a great position on that stock. All3Media, Formula E, Lionsgate, add those things up really at cost or slight or market, you get to another $2 a share. And then infrastructure is new stuff for us. I mean, we've got a stake in the EdgeConneX deal that EQT did at $2.7 million acquisition. We rolled our interest in that. We've got a few deals in the pipeline. So Q2, Q3, stay tuned for some infrastructure deals, both greenfield, maybe brownfield, using our property assets. So some interesting things happening there. It's not distracting us from the core markets. It's not distracting us. It's not taking a lot of capital. By the way, it's starting to return capital. So these are funding themselves to some extent. They're just -- you could land on some really interesting investments that are hidden value, that in a stock as [ cheap as our ], is worth pointing out. So.

Yes. So basically, you've been investing consistently small amounts of money over quite a few years, and now, you're starting to hit pay dirt. Are you still looking for opportunities? You mentioned infrastructure. But is it just...

No, Infrastructure, for sure. We have an active tech group team. They're making investments every year, but are starting to fund themselves, as you can tell, with some of their exits. So it's pretty -- it's something that we pay attention to, and we have dedicated people focused on, and all of us see the opportunities there. And we're going to continue to explore them.

Sorry. Is the whole SPAC thing an interesting way of monetizing some of these?

It's good to be in this position we're in with all the SPACs out there. We thought about a SPAC. But in fairness, there's just way too much value to worry about in our own stock to have my team out there chasing deals with the SPAC. So we mixed the idea. I mean, everybody came to us. You could do a SPAC tomorrow. I said, "You know what? I got -- we got -- I'm focused on the here and now. We've got so many things to work on to get -- create value, we didn't want to get distracted." Having said that, because there's so many SPACs out there, we have a lot of attractive assets, right? The Skillz deal was a SPAC. You should assume there are other things we own where people are approaching us could possibly be part of a SPAC. But we'll see.

Okay. It sounds like it's a good place to be. With regard to other deals, you've mentioned the possibility of addressing your remaining non-converged assets in Ireland and Poland. Anything you can say about that prospect and capital allocation about those assets. So your buyers are not decided in those markets?

Too soon to say. I would expect that -- I think I said on the earnings call I would be surprised if by the end of this year, we hadn't addressed the opportunities in those markets, Ireland and Poland. And I don't want to say more than that. But you should assume it's front and center. And they're both great assets, growth assets, strong positions in their market. And stay tuned.

Okay. Sounds like another busy year ahead. Guidance for full year '21 suggests that adjusted free cash flow, there's not much of a change should you either continue to consolidate Virgin Media or deconsolidate, which is good going because of the dividend-paying potential of the new JV. So do you agree with a certain analyst's view that all 4 of your major businesses have the ability to move their dividends progressively higher over time, listing your free cash flow at the Liberty level, even whilst funding greater fiber deployment? So can you have [indiscernible] needed in terms of cash flow at the parent and more investment in the opcos?

Well, listen, I mean, you know as well as anybody because you follow us well and your -- among our better analysts. You're super smart. You understand the story here.

Thanks very much.

Free cash flow is what is our focus, right? We did 30% growth in free cash flow last year. We're projecting or guiding to 25% growth this year. By the way, with the $1 billion buyback, that's really 35% on a free cash flow per share basis, right? That's just math. So free cash flow per share, free cash flow, those are the metrics that matter to us. I'm not going to get into the long-term guidance game today or provide you -- 1 year at a time for us. But those are the metrics that matter. And by the way, the trends, whether you look at consolidated free cash flow, proportionate free cash flow or just upstream free cash flow, the trends are the same. And that's -- why would they be the same? For the exact reason you just identified, which is the distributions we're getting from these opcos is substantial. That's what's largely driving the free cash flow for us over time. The synergies in Switzerland and the U.K. will be a great source of that. We've got great free cash flow yield in Belgium and Holland. You know those numbers, and we're getting those dividends out. And of course, we're committed to the buyback. On the medium term, I'm not going to get into -- we believe that the CapEx envelope that we've projected can deliver the growth that we've asked -- we've identified for 2021. No problem. Are people deploying fiber? Of course. Today, we're not largely overbuilt in most markets. I mean, maybe 15% in the U.K., maybe 30% in Holland. There exists activity around deployment of fiber, no question about it. But we're already on a path to 2.5 gig with 3.1, and we think with 10-gig with 4.0, and some really efficient and interesting and exciting ways of building that in should we want to. That's a long-term issue. I mean, we're talking 8 to 10 years. So medium term, we're in great shape, and long term, we have great optionality. We've already talked about it, whether it's NetCo ServCo, wholesale arrangements, financial partners, strategic partners, with the base technology that works wonderfully and options to utilize other technologies where we have infrastructure, inducting and things of that nature. So we'll be talking a lot about this over the next 24 months. But I like the position we're in, say, versus almost anybody in our markets. We're already leading the market in speed. We already have the majority of broadband customers. Let's just take the U.K.; already leading the speed, already the majority of broadband customers, already building out, already access to ducting and infrastructure. There, in particular, it's the easiest of all markets to see in the future because we have access to both BT and our own infrastructure, upgrading our networks there, not hard should we ever decide to do it or ever need to do it. So I think we've got a really good position today, and we'll tell you more and more about that as time goes on. But free cash flow 2021. And as we start to talk more and more about ensuing years, that is the focus, and free cash flow per share is really the metric.

The -- you've talked about quite a lot of liquidity at the parent company, and that liquidity is going to be boosted post the O2 deal. Could you see yourself going into new geographies?

Yes. Not right now. I mean, we don't really -- not in Europe. It's hard to see Europe as a place where there's easy and obvious places to put money. And we can take an hour to rattle through the markets. I think we've got a lot of opportunity right where we are. I think driving free cash flow. I mean, the transformation we've made in the last 3 or 4 years is pretty meaningful, right? About $85 billion of M&A, exiting markets where we didn't have scale at double-digit multiples, buying mobile at single-digit multiples where we needed -- where we had scale to build fixed mobile, and partnering at great attractive valuations where we -- that was the best option for us, and massive synergies and executing on those synergies really well and $12 billion of synergies in front of us. And look, is -- are there going to be headwinds? Are they going to -- of course. Are our competitors good? Of course, they're great. But that's the way it exists in every business. But I like our position. I like our advantage. I love our management team. I think it's -- I think we've got some really positive momentum here. And if the market doesn't see it, we just buy more stock. I'd prefer to have the market see it and understand it, and hopefully, analysts like you will help decipher it to people. But if not, we just buy more stock. We bought all of our -- we bought a ton of stock last year at $19 a share. Good -- that low -- if we're buying stock, that's a good thing. Now because we're long-term holders and long-term strategic growers of value and assets. And -- but ultimately, we need to see this unfold. And I think the free cash flow we demonstrate, the free cash flow per share will be undeniable, together with the strategic stuff we've talked about today, the kind of accelerators, the catalysts that exist in the portfolio, whether they're network catalysts, entry catalysts, whatever that is, a lot of catalysts here that we can manage and I think are only exciting to us for us and for shareholders.

Well, it sounds like a few things have come together at a very nice time. You've got money, you've got buyers. So let's hope it feeds through to a better outcome to the stock. I do have a few questions on the system, but for compliance reasons, I don't believe I'm able to ask them. So on that basis, I think if you got any more last comments, please go ahead. Otherwise, we'll wrap it up.

No, I appreciate the -- I think I just said it all right there. I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you. And I would agree, the breakers is a nicer that's our place to be. But perhaps next year -- hopefully, next year, we're all back there. And it's good to see you.

Absolutely. You're invited. See you there. Thanks very much indeed, Mike. All the best.

Take care. Bye-bye.

Bye.