Liberty Global Ltd. (LBTYA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Good afternoon, everyone, and thanks for joining us for our next session, which is with Liberty Global. And we're obviously very pleased to have with us Mike Fries, Liberty's CEO. So firstly, Mike, thanks for taking the time to join us.

Happy to be here, Akhil. Thanks, everybody.

As with all the other sessions, it's exactly the same format here. So obviously, if you would like to ask a question, you can do that. Just submit your questions through the option just below the video screen and I'll make sure to capture those questions in the session that we're running for the next 40 minutes.

Mike, whilst we're waiting for that, let me maybe kick off with a few. I guess the first one is really a very big picture one. If we look at the last few years, Liberty has been on a pretty big transformation, as you've really strategically reshaped the portfolio to an FMC portfolio. And obviously, the U.K. is the next asset on that journey and that transaction is close to closing very, very soon. And you're guiding now to pretty much all your markets now growing. So how do you think about the way Liberty exits that journey and the opportunity set for the group as we look over the coming few years?

Yes. Good question. Look, you referenced the transformation. I think it might be worthy of repeating kind of that transformation. From our point of view, it's been a pretty big pivot in the last 3 or 4 years. If you went back before that, we were really a strong consolidated European cable company in double-digit markets with mixed scale. And in the last 3 or 4 years, we've obviously exited 6 markets at double-digit multiples to companies like Vodafone and Deutsche Telekom. We've used that cash to acquire mobile in markets like Belgium and Switzerland, and we've also put great joint ventures together with Telefónica and Vodafone in the U.K. JV, and we bought back a lot of stock. So we've really transformed the company such that once we finish this transaction with Telefónica, closed in 5 days now, it feels great to say that, we'll have 80 million fixed and mobile subs underneath our portfolio of businesses, with aggregate revenue of $25 billion. So we're actually a bigger company with greater scale, more concentrated scale and more balance, and we still have $4 billion of cash left after all of that. So I think the transformation for us has been the right move, especially in Europe as it's evolved. And you know the benefits of fixed mobile convergence. They're powerful. I sort of coined this new 4Ss on our earnings call. I don't know if it's sticking with anybody. But you've got national scale. That matters most. So we're the #1 or #2 operator in every country. Instead of being a cable company in regional cities or big cities, we're now the #1 or #2 telecom operator in the entire country. And so we're able to shape the ecosystem of these markets. We've already demonstrated substantial synergies in these deals, right? So just in Holland and Belgium, we delivered over $6 billion of synergies on an NPV basis. That's done, booked ahead of schedule. And we've now got $12 billion of synergies ahead of us in the U.K. and in Switzerland over the next several years, about $8 billion of which drops to our business. So it's a big chunk of value we'll create. And our execution track record there is flawless so far. And then you've got competitive strength. It matters a ton when you -- as you say, we're trying to get growth back into this market, into these businesses. So being able to grow the business as a function of having that strength. And then the strategic optionality, which is the fourth one, which when you put all these together, it creates new opportunities in these markets for either further consolidation or creative financings or monetizing infrastructure or maybe even listings. All of these things really come about because we're building these national champions. And if you look at the U.K., it's really the poster child for that, right? We're the clear #2 to BT. 42 million fixed immobile subs, $11 billion of revenue. We've got the largest mobile platform with a 40% market share and the largest 1 gig network with 40% market share on footprint for broadband and big synergies, $6.2 billion of synergies, 80% of which are cost-based. And some really unique competitive strengths there, right? We have a great team and a great partner. Telefónica for me is going to be a fantastic partner in this journey. And José María and I, I think, see eye to eye in pretty much everything. And so together, you've got a fully converged digital platform and a stronger, more nimble business and a lot of optionality, whether that's to extend the network. I'm sure we'll talk about networks on this call. And Switzerland is off to a great start, too. You sort of mentioned that or implied, we are seeing return to growth in those markets. We have national scale in Switzerland and a strong first quarter. So I mean I think the strategy everywhere seems to be coming together. And for us, that narrative is clearer, simpler for people to follow, and also clearer and stronger in terms of executing on the growth plans. Strong free cash flow last year. We projected strong free cash flow this year. Everything is looking really solid in terms of our performance through April. And we're buying back stock, right? We bought back $0.5 billion. It's a new number for those who're listening through April -- or through mid -- yes, I think, I guess through April. And so we're ahead of track on the $1 billion buyback. So we'll certainly have something to say about that on our second quarter earnings call. So a lot of good things happening, some accelerators there. We'll talk about them, whether it's ventures or listings or things like that. So I feel really good. And I'm really proud of the team, and I think we're really set up for success now. So...

Great. Well, a lot of interesting points that we can definitely flesh out. I mean if we go to one of the points you just raised -- just said, which was infrastructure monetization, we've obviously seen in the last couple of years a real game changer really in terms of the way the market is valuing infrastructure, basically given the private equity interest in the space. How do you think about the optionality for Liberty as a group? I mean, I guess the obvious one is potentially post the O2 merger. There's the towers there. So I guess that's a separate piece. But more broadly, what do you think that creates for Liberty as a group in terms of optionality?

It's substantial, right? I mean you can go through them. This is a big topic. But let's just start with wholesale. I mean, historically, we sort of avoided wholesale revenue. We said, "Hey, why would we mess with it? We're the clear speed leader." And we are the clear speed leader, by the way, and we'll be the clear speed leader for a very long time, years to come. I mean just take a look at the U.K., we've got 15 million homes that are 1 gig. By the end of this year, BT on our footprint has built 2 million homes. So in 85% of our market in the U.K., we got 1 gig, and that's why we're getting -- that's why we have 42% market share on footprint. That's why we've added 170,000 broadband subs in the last 12 months and the entire industry has added about that much. So I think there's real speed advantages, and we're going to maintain those speed advantages. On the other hand, we have to migrate and think in a forward-looking way about how we evolve our business. And especially with fiber, which we've talked about on every earnings call, fiber is clearly happening across our footprint, and it's not new. It's been going on for a decade. It may be picking up a little speed, as you say, with private equity investment and a lot of interested parties. But on the other hand, it's not new. So you should assume, we have been planning for this evolution of networks for a decade and have a ton of options in terms of what we do with fiber, which I'll talk about. But firstly, on wholesale, look, from our point of view, there's a lot of advantages, right? Number one, it's a new revenue stream, right, for sure. And from that perspective, it gives you fuel for some of these network ideas. And it's all about network utilization. So today, at 35%, 40% market share, we feel really good on footprint. But that means 60% of our network is underutilized. So clearly, if you look at Belgium, where we've opened the network up, I don't think Porter would go back. He loves the fact -- Telenet loves the fact that they're getting this revenue from Orange. Every Proximus customer Orange deals, half of that revenue goes to Telenet. So the wholesale market, as speeds have sort of leveled off a little bit, is clearly looking more attractive to us. You get new revenues. You can support expansion and upgrade. And all of that, I think, makes sense. So I think that's one big issue for us is looking at wholesale for sure. And then the other thing I'd say about upgrading and sort of fiber as a whole -- let me just backtrack and say, for anyone who might be worried, HFC, which is our primary technology today, that is a proven network technology. I mean I think 60 years, we've been evolving and adapting the HFC network. It's innovative, it's cost efficient. We live in a great ecosystem with Comcast and Charter, all of whom are dependent on the same DOCSIS platform. And there's a reason why we have 30 million 1-gig homes today, and everybody is struggling to catch up. It's because it's a great platform. It's worked really well. But on the other hand, I think we have to look at every market differently. And the beautiful thing about our networks are, they're already fiber-rich. HFC is fiber-rich. We get tens of thousands of kilometers of fiber. Fiber already goes into the node point, which, as you know, is only that -- depending on how many homes are at the node, very close to the home already. So as we look out over the next 5 years, we will explore DOCSIS 4 and fiber-to-the-home as the next natural evolution of network technology for us. And again, every market will be different. It will depend on, first and foremost, the cost to build, cost per premise which, in some cases, like the U.K., is almost equal to DOCSIS 4 because we have so much underground duct -- almost all 100% underground duct in the U.K. So from that point of view, it's almost a toss-up between DOCSIS 4 and fiber. And fiber has some advantages. As you would know, it's not -- it's maybe, in some people's minds, a bit more future-proof, but it's financeable. Everybody is excited about it. It levels the playing field with BT. There are operational efficiencies. It certainly accelerates B2B and allows us to expand our reach, and maybe there's a better valuation in this fiber-crazy world, who knows. But the fact that we have massive infrastructure in the U.K., just taking that market as an example, honestly, that's a very important question for us, which we'll deal with at the JV day 1, which is, how do we take this market further? How do we upgrade our network? How do we keep the advantages that we have? And we have lots of options. That's a good news for shareholders. Lots of options within the envelope, lots of creative ways to finance these types of opportunities. So it's an exciting time for us. And again, we'll sit down with Telefónica as soon as we close here, which is a week away, and start thinking about these opportunities. But I'm excited about it. I think it's validating what we've been spending decades building. And because of what we -- because what we've built is so powerful, we have lots of options to evolve that network, as we've always done. I mean we worked 1 gig 2 years ago, right? So we invested the capital to get to 1 gig, and then we'll get to 10 gig. So I feel pretty confident and comfortable with our optionality in Europe on the infrastructure side.

Great. So there's a few follow-ups linked to what you said. And also there's a few client questions very much linked to everything you've just mentioned. So maybe I'll try and pull these things together. So you talked about wholesale, and I think it makes sense. It's a very natural transition for the group at some point or at least an option worth exploring. Do you think that has to go hand-in-hand with fiber? Because one of the debates we get a lot from investors is that because fiber is not -- so because cable is not point-to-point, it's more shared. There's several hundred homes depending on the market. The question is, do you need to migrate to fiber to be able to wholesale the network? So I guess the question is, do you think that's relevant or not? Or do you think it needs very separate decisions?

Just ask anybody at Telenet, I mean -- or ask Orange Belgium. Orange Belgium, we're not allowed to disclose it, but let's just say, hundreds of thousands of broadband customers and video customers off the Telenet network, very happy with that experience. So the answer is no, you don't need to do that. Whether you would choose to do that is a market-specific question, again, driven by what does the reseller market look like? What are current resellers utilizing in technology? How many resellers are there? If you take a market -- any market you look at, if someone like BT, for example, in the U.K., has all of the wholesale business, and they're utilizing a certain technology or growing into a certain technology, then maybe there's reasons to be -- to level that playing field and grab some of that business would seem to be a logical opportunity, I think, and the technology you use might be an issue there. But especially in the U.K., if we can do it with the same price, it's hard not to consider that optionality. But I don't think it's a necessity as such, and the greatest case in point is Telenet. We're doing it today very efficiently and effectively for a third-party competitor. So it will be market by market, and I think we'll look at that on a case-by-case basis.

Fine. Another question that we've got through is, and again, kind of linked to what you've talked about, which is, in a world where people are very excited about infrastructure values -- valuation, sorry, you generally don't have national footprint. So there is an opportunity in many of your markets, if you wanted to, to expand your footprint. And the U.K. is a great case in point when you talked to that as an option. So the question that the clients asked is really 2 parts. One is how do you think about that? Which markets are interesting? Which markets aren't? And the second bit is, do you think when you do this, it makes sense to do this with a partner given the sort of appetite there is for infrastructure valuations right now?

Yes. So great, great, great questions. Let me take the U.K. as an example, right? So we have Project Lightning. We've been building for 4, 5 years here. We've got 2.5 million, 2.6 million premises built -- by the way, half of those are fiber to the premise. And going forward, that's about 75% of the build is fiber to the premise. So we're already building that in our extended networks in the U.K. And doing it at less and less cost because of our access to BT's infrastructure. So I think we can bring costs down almost 1/3 when we access BT's PIA, which is terrific. And as we've said every quarter, the Lightning experience, experiment has been very successful. Penetration is in the 30% range, ARPU is in line with BAU, and we've got almost 600,000 customers generating great revenue and EBITDA. So by all accounts, it's been a home run for us. Now we've talked about expanding. We've said 7 million homes, maybe 10 million. Why wouldn't we take the Virgin network to 22 million homes, 1 gig, 10 gig, what would -- if Lightning's worked so well, why wouldn't we? So we are looking at that very closely. And we'll look at that with Telefónica very, very closely. But there's good reasons to accelerate that discussion, right? First of all, BT is accelerating, at least they say they're accelerating, right? They're going to go from what they thought was 20 million fiber homes over the next mid- to late '20s, now 25 million by '26. That's a big step-up for them. Of course, they've got to finance a chunk of that to get it done. So let's see if that happens. But more importantly, we want to preserve our first-mover advantage. We want to secure build partners. We want to lock in for creative financing if it's available from third parties. We want to get wholesale partners. Remember, a lot of -- all the wholesale revenue going to BT. They're a wholesale revenue partners for us. So I think the probability of doing these types of network extensions with a partner is high. And why wouldn't we look at the creative ways of both financing and securing revenue? And when you put the Virgin Media customers and, let's say, some -- a third-party, anybody, Sky, Vodafone, TalkTalk, you put that revenue onto our network, it opens up leverage capabilities, it opens up valuation opportunities, it opens up third-party infrastructure funds. I'd love to see this kind of thing. So I'm really excited about the opportunities there. And again, we'll sit down with Telefónica the day we close, really start thinking through some of these really exciting opportunities for Virgin. Other markets, Ireland has similar characteristics in terms of its ability to extend its footprint really cost effectively with fiber. Other markets, we'll look at a blend of technologies. It all comes down to the costs, really, and how do we optimize the capital and the cash flows. And I think we're pretty good at that stuff.

Sure. So there's a few more questions coming in on all very similar topics. So clearly, that's a topic that everyone's got a lot of interest in. The other one is just when you think about potential wholesale, is your view of it different when you look at your legacy footprint by where you are today versus any footprint expansion you might do in these markets? Obviously, again, particularly pertinent to the U.K.

Yes. It's the right question. So it's really easy to think about wholesale, open networks when you're looking at network expansion. Because even if Lightning, for example, even though we know we can get 30% share, every 1 million or 2 million or 3 million homes we expand in the U.K., why wouldn't we look at opening it up that to third parties and get to 50% or 60% utilization that drives financing capabilities, cash flows to the NetCo. So it's really -- what's embedded in that question is a ServCo, NetCo question. And I think, to be honest with you, we explore that. And we will explore that without being specific as to where and when. We'll look at that. If -- in a natural greenfield fiber expansion, where you don't have any footprint, you don't have any technology -- sorry, any customers, that is a NetCo in a sense, if you do it with partners. And that to me is something we will definitely consider. You've got IT questions, you've got to be sure technologies works for everybody. And you've got competitive issues, of course. But I have no -- where we're on footprint, we're getting the vast majority of customers. By the way, it's not just speed, right? Let's be clear. Even though speeds are leveling, and that's inevitable in our business, it's about quality of service. It's about how you -- what that customer experience is. It's about what kind of digital platform are you building to sell more than just broadband to that customer. It's about fixed mobile convergence. I sure want to have mobile on my bundle if I'm going head-to-head with other 10-gig providers. And that's why we've been building these platforms, not simply to give us the flexibility to extend our networks. But if and when we do or open them up, we'll have all the ingredients for success if there's a leveling of speed advantage. And that's what we've been doing behind the scenes, and very overtly too, with FMC champions. And so I feel good about our opportunity, to me, which gives us more confidence to open up. In terms of the existing footprint, let's see. That's a more complicated question. That's a technology question. It's also a competitive question. But I'll tell you, if we're already penetrating 30% to 40% on our existing footprint, that's an attractive set of cash flows for a NetCo, day 1. And so you have to look at that carefully. You have to consider that, whether that's something you want to do. And it could be fuel for upgrading with DOCSIS or fiber. It could be fuel for financing strategies. It could be fuel for value creation opportunities. I mean we are sitting on the best infrastructure, we think, in Europe. So why wouldn't we look at opportunities to expand and upgrade and do all the great things that are happening, but do it possibly with partners, financial or strategic, in a way that drives shareholder value. That's what we're all about.

Great. Super clear. So there's another question linked to that as well that's come through, which is around Liberty Group cash flow. So the question is, there's a lot of opportunity with what you're saying to deliver incremental value. But there are scenarios where that might require more CapEx. So how do you think about that? And particularly, how do you think about it in the context of looking to external funding. So when you look at what you choose to do, is part of the thought process around the group cash generation? Or is it purely based on long-term fundamentals of the different decisions you make?

Great, great question. That is exactly the issue. And you can rest assured -- after this call, I'm going spend 2 hours on this topic. You can rest assured that, first and foremost, we look at this through the lens of cash flow and -- free cash flow and the ability to drive free cash flow for the group. It's not simply, well, we've got 5 to 10 years of competition here. Let's just throw caution to the wind. And -- but we don't want -- I think we've got a good thing going, where our businesses are high margin, cash flow generative. And we think there are ways, in every case, to manage the pace of upgrade or extension, to manage the partners you choose for upgrade or extension and to be creative about financing for upgrade and extension in a way that sort of optimizes that picture that you're painting there. And so stay tuned. This is not happening overnight. This isn't -- we have partners in these markets in the case of Holland and the U.K. We have time to think this through because we have year -- we're still 85% of the market. We're still leading. So we have time to think these things through. And we have -- and we'll do that carefully and thoughtfully. So this is not something to be concerned about right now. But we will be thinking that through. It's our job to stay strategic and on our front foot here. So I'm more excited about these opportunities than anything and excited about taking them through with our partners. So -- but it's the right question.

And I guess that leads to another question, which you've definitely alluded to and discussed in the past, which is you've argued quite strongly in the past, you feel your stock is undervalued. You felt that regionally, there's been a lot of complexities and a lot of moving parts. And therefore, there could be a scenario where it could make sense to have regional silos, and that could be a model to try and unlock that value. When you think about the evolution of the strategy and the M&A you've done, is that still a path you're considering? Or do you think actually there's benefit to keeping this together and trying to crystallize the value in alternative ways?

Well, I think we've I think we've turned the corner on that a little bit. So let me answer it in 2 different direct ways. There is always going to be value in what we bring to -- we at Liberty bring to these operating companies. And it's not simply technology expertise, 3 decades of experience in the marketplace. It's not simply the ability to drive scale across the assets in terms of partner strategies, best practices, content, whatever. Those things are at par for the course. We're going to do those things, whether we own 50% or 100%. These guys are going to get the best of what we have to provide and those scale benefits are real. But most importantly, what they get is a long-term shareholder-driven mindset with the ability to make decisions quickly in a sort of owner-operator mentality. If I look at BT, for example, and BT is struggling to think through how they build 25 million homes, how they pay for it. And they had to -- presumably, there was a blowup in the boardroom about whether they do or don't bring financial partners into that, [ that have any ] blowup in our boardroom. That's one conversation. We love the idea. So my point is the ability to be flexible, aggressive, opportunistic with an investor and a shareholder and an owner like us, I think, is really going to pay dividends in this interesting 2- or 3-year time frame here. So the value that the group gets from our collective ownership of these businesses, whether it's culture or long-term investment focus or all the technology and operating benefits, I think, is real. Having said that, these are independently very strong businesses with great brands and great management teams. And by the way, national champions. And so the opportunity that we've talked in the past about listing these businesses is real. I mean, Sunrise, we bought it off the market at a pretty big multiple. I would be surprised if we don't put it back on the market because it is a national champion and a business that's clear #2, has all the advantages that a #2 has and a big opportunity for Swiss investors to own a company like that. So same could go for VodafoneZiggo. If we had our partners -- if our partners and we could sort of reach agreement on something like that, VodafoneZiggo is a poster child for FMC, right? I mean they hit their synergies a year early. They're #1 in broadband, #1 in voice, #1 in video, great mobile network, great fixed network, rational market. They compare really favorably to the comps. If you look at KPN or any of those other guys, and they're delivering financially with great cash flow and great growth. So that's enough possibility, and we should obviously look at it seriously. But we've got to talk to our partners, look at issues like leverage and fine-tune the long-term network strategy and we've got some steps to take. Heck, I mean, Virgin Media O2 would be very powerful. #2 in the U.K.'s largest, most vibrant media and telecom market. I think there's interesting opportunities there, which will be clever and thoughtful about, not rash. So I think it's the best of both is what I want to say. It's sort of a federation of these strong national champions but a union of really powerful synergies and strategic advantages from a shareholder group that's really just focused on creating value. So...

Makes a lot of sense. And you talked about Ziggo just there in terms of could there be merit to listing. I guess one of the other options you've talked around Ziggo is a potential merger at Telenet and, obviously, the potential that, that could create. What are your latest thoughts on that topic? Is that still something that could make sense? Or has the thinking evolved since?

Yes, I have to be careful, Telenet is a public company. There's nothing happening on that question right now. There's a lot of moving parts. I mean we don't make that decision for VodafoneZiggo solely. We have a great partner in Vodafone. We respect them. We have to understand that, too. So we'll see in the next -- I think, listen, we have the option to list it now if the partners agree. Even if they don't, we have the option to do a [ soft put ] process if we wanted to and sort of get the company marketed if we wanted to exit. It's not really clear where Vodafone's head is on this question. I haven't talked to Nick recently about it, and I don't think he's feeling any urgency about doing anything really, nor should he. But there is obviously advantages in the Benelux -- potential advantages in the Benelux roll up. It's just one of the many things we would consider. I wouldn't put much credibility into it today. We're not working on it. Let's put it that way.

Great. And then when you talk about the FMC opportunities, at the beginning, you talked about the B2B opportunities. And I think we're definitely seeing a lot more commentary across the whole sector around B2B, particularly in the context of the European recovery fund and a lot of capital that's going specifically to support B2B recovery. Can you just talk a little bit about just B2B more generally? I mean, I guess, if you could give us, firstly, a bit of a sense as to what your market share ranges are by market. And then secondly, how do you think about the opportunity to take more share now across the European landscape?

Sure. I would say, first and foremost, B2B is one of the most exciting opportunities in these fixed mobile champions for a whole host of reasons. I think our B2B revenue total is about EUR 3 billion, plus or minus, and maybe it's 20% of our overall revenue. But it's one of our strongest growers. And if you look out 3, 4, 5 years, the B2B revenue line is always a solid mid-single-digit growth line for us with really high gross margins, like, 75% gross margins. Our market share varies plus/minus 10% in the overall markets, depending on our reach and our scale. In markets like Benelux, where we're a little more mature, more like 30%, so we can get to those kinds of levels that we know in the U.K. for sure. And the drivers really are similar. So first, it's SOHO, right? SOHO is about 1/3 of our revenue, but by far, the fastest-growing revenue stream. And it makes perfect sense, right? I mean we proved it out in markets like Belgium and Holland. I think we've got 35%, 50% SOHO share. In a market like U.K., we've got less than 10%. Why wouldn't we be the preferred provider of mobile and broadband? And that's the next point, which is mobile. We don't -- we haven't been selling mobile into the B2B space in our fixed markets, but partners do that well. So bringing fixed mobile convergence to the B2B space is just as compelling as it is to the residential space. That will happen. We're looking at backhaul. In the U.K. alone, we signed over GBP 300 million of backhaul deals. We are the backhaul provider of choice in that marketplace to Vodafone, to Three, and that's going to continue because our networks are robust, our ability to deliver is robust. So I think those are the kind of main drivers. It maybe differs a bit by market, but in every case, we're pushing those same levers. SOHO, looking at sort of more sophisticated solutions for the SME and large enterprise market, whether it's IT or security or aggregation of all that sort of good stuff. And then mobile because with these -- and by the way, if we end up expanding our network somewhere with or without partners, that also benefits the B2B business, right? So a lot of, sort of embedded drivers of B2B, and we don't talk enough about it. I'm glad you raised the question because it is sort of a steady growth opportunity for us, where our national scale should drive more reasonable national market shares than we have today. So it's sort of a natural opportunity for us as we become #2 in all these markets or #1 in some instances, that we have a better share of that B2B enterprise space.

Great. And if we think through that message of wanting to be #1, #2 in your markets, you can see U.K., Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, you've made that transition. There's a few of your smaller markets where it's not yet clear what you want to do. So maybe if you can elaborate a bit on that. And I guess when we think about the FMC journey in those smaller markets, do you see good opportunities to try and deliver on that? Or could we potentially see you as sellers in some of those smaller markets?

Yes. Well, you're talking about Ireland and Poland, basically, which, by the way, just to level set people, are good markets, right? They both do between EUR 400 million, EUR 450 million of revenue. They both have EUR 170 million to EUR 180 million of EBITDA. They're both growing on the revenue and the EBITDA and the free cash flow line. So these are nice -- little but nice businesses. And they're different. Looking at Ireland, we've got 1 million homes passed. We're the #2 nationwide in terms of broadband and video but #1 in our footprint. On our footprint, we've got 45%, 50% share of broadband and video. And we're the quality player there. The best brand, the highest ARPUs. People come to us because we're delivering the fastest speeds. And we have a reputation. Virgin Media there has a strong reputation. But it's a competitive market, Ireland, right? You've got Vodafone, you've got Sky, you've got eir. So we've got to be thoughtful about where we go from here. There is some fiber overbuild -- energy kind of building. And even through that, we're growing. The options, I don't think there's any obvious buyers today. I'm not so sure it's an obvious exit. But we could look at some ways, and we are looking at some ways to possibly grow, invest and expand. The fiber economics look a lot like the U.K. in terms of the cost per premise, which -- because we're mostly all underground and have great access to infrastructure there. And 90% of the broadband market sits on eir's network. So their wholesale opportunity could be interesting, too. So there's a fixed mobile opportunity possibly. The synergies look real, right? It's no different than the U.K., just smaller. So stay tuned. I would be focused on that for sure. Poland is a slightly different market. It's a larger market, bit more complicated, bit more competitive. And we've got 2.6 million broadband and video customers, so we're not small. On footprint, we've probably got 60% to 65% market share. So -- on our footprint. But our footprint isn't huge in that market. And it's a fragmented market with big operators like Orange and DT. They're going to be natural consolidators there, probably not us. So we have options there. Have we had people express interest in acquiring our asset? Yes. Are we looking at that? Maybe. Could we consolidate further? We've tried. You know that in the past. It's a terrible regulatory environment for that. So we're opportunistic. Stay tuned on both those markets. We'll have -- it's definitely top of mind for us, and we know we can't just carry on as is, that we have to bring those same strategic narrative or lens or opportunity to those markets as well. They just were smaller, so not front and center. So stay tuned.

Fine. There's one question that's coming on, which I think is a very quick one to answer, so I'll quickly just slot it in, which is just around mobile towers. So the question was, O2 contributes to mobile towers. Obviously, that's simple. Do you have sizable tower portfolios in other markets? And what are your thoughts around monetizing those? Because you talked about fiber earlier, but I guess the question is wondering if a mobile is also something to think about.

We have -- both Holland and Belgium have plus/minus 3,000 towers each that have not been monetized. And so we are -- you should assume we're actively working on getting those towers in a position to possibly be monetized, but they have -- we have not, in either case, taken advantage of the feverish valuations that exist for towers. So that's upside. Same in the U.K. We're together with, of course, O2 when that joint venture comes together. In a week or so, we will own 50% of the towers in CTIL. And they've already been kind of carved out, if you will. So there's already the opportunity, should we choose, to monetize those or do something with those ready source of capital, if we needed capital to do something. So I think we've got an interesting portfolio, and that's really -- we haven't done anything with. So that's upside that I'm certain isn't in our stock. But we will talk about it more over time.

Great. So just a couple of last ones in the time we've got left. So one is just around leverage. I mean, Charlie has been quite clear over time around his general thinking. But I guess the range of leverage across the pieces is reasonably wide. You've got kind of 4 to 5.5x in each of your silos. And what is the thinking as we go forward? Especially with all of these strategic moves and asset moves and infrastructure moves we're seeing, how do you think about the right leverage level going forward, both for the silos but also for Liberty parent?

Well, I mean, we always get the question. It's a good question. As you pointed out, we do have silos, right? So unlike most of our peers, we don't have parent company debt. All of our debt resides inside the opco, if you will, in the country of origin, financed locally in the currency if that generates -- the cash flows are generated in. And that 5x leverage level is what we've been at for a very, very long time. But remember, we've also derisked those silos. So average life, 7 to 8 years, no near-term maturities. You would know because you're helping us quite a bit, we're constantly in the market to refinance and push those maturities out. It's all fixed rate. We don't take any risk on fluctuation of rates. Currency matched and low cost of capital. For a businesses lever of ours, we're 3.5%, 4.5% kind of cost of capital, fixed. So I think we've put our business -- our balance sheet in a great position. It varies by market. We're a little higher in Holland because it's an off-balance sheet JV. We're a little lower in Telenet because it's a public company. And there could be drivers to change that. It could go down if we decide to pursue listings more aggressively perhaps. Maybe it could go up if we play the infrastructure game. And you've got the blended leverage because, of course, NetCos and wholesale revenues drive higher leverage. So we'll see. But as a general matter, we think the 5x leverage works for us. And principally because Charlie and the team have just done a fantastic job of derisking that balance sheet. Whether it's maturity levels, the average life or the cost of capital, the fixed rate or the currency match, it's just -- it's a rock-solid capital structure, and we don't think about it, which is good.

Okay. And then just a very last one, I guess, is on the ventures portfolio. It's something that, obviously, you started talking about more proactively over recent quarters and giving us color around. So it's a $2.5 billion, very substantial [ feature ] of the story. Maybe if you could just talk us a bit about the pieces within that and how you just think about strategic priorities going forward.

Yes. So I'm glad you asked because it is something we've started to share more about. We've probably got $1.8 billion, plus/minus, invested in 65 different companies across 3 core verticals, so tech, content and infrastructure. And we value those investments today at about $2.7 billion. So that's $4.50 a share, I don't know, pretty big chunk of our market price. And I don't know if people really appreciate that or if they're adding that into the market price, probably not. If you look at tech, that's been one of our greatest success stories. And the goal in our tech ventures is really about driving strategic value for the opcos, principally. So can we drive savings with these investees? Can these companies provide products and services to our companies? And we think we saved $250 million, $300 million, when we invested in Casa Systems, which had a better CMTS platform for broadband. We're an investor in Plume, so we provide a whole smart Wi-Fi intelligent platform into our opcos. And we're creating real value. We've got a handful of unicorns already, maybe 8 to 10, that look to be doing really well. Skillz is that e-mobile -- that mobile e-sports platform that went public and probably a 10x for us, put $15 million in, it's worth 10x that. Plume, we put $25 million in but worth 7x that. So we're making good decisions, not just willy-nilly decisions but decisions that are really aligned with our core business. And so we have smart people involved in those decisions. We're getting operating company engineers involved. That's really good. I think going forward, on the tech side, it's all about AI and cloud-based services and digitization and security. The content piece, which is the second big vertical, is, of course, the ITV stake, which today is about 9.9%, average cost, 86p, feel pretty good about that, up 45% because we unwound the hedge. We really never explained to anybody, but we never bought the stock. We borrowed to buy the stock, and so we never really were exposed to that price. So now we're in it at 86p. We feel pretty good about that. What -- that doesn't mean we're going to do anything with it. It just means we feel good about the position. Formula E is a great success story for us. We doubled our money in that business. It's a growing race series. Univision, I mean, who -- people -- we didn't talk about it, but we put $100 million in the first acquisition of Univision and maybe $800 million, $900 million of equity value. And they just rolled in Televisa, raised $1 billion from Google and SoftBank and now our stake is worth 4x that. So that's not just mark-to-market but smart money coming in. So we've got -- we're making decisions that we think will drive value for investors. On the infrastructure side, we're in EdgeConneX with EQT. That's made us money. We just announced the deal with Digital Colony, Marc Ganzi, called AtlasEdge, where we're going to use the property that we have across these countries as a -- essentially a scalable data center for the edge computing we know is coming. So we basically have already decided to hive off the properties and strike lease deals, if you will, and we'll do that with Marc around Europe to try to build this edge computing infrastructure that, I think, has great potential. So there's a lot of things happening. Going forward, look, we're going to use it as an incubator for good ideas. We're going to use it to create strategic impact for our opcos. Keep us in the flow. I mean everybody has their own venture activities. We're not new. We're not the only guys doing this, but keep us in the flow on what's driving our business and create real value. It's working, and we're not going to allocate on. By the way, a lot of it is self-funding because we're selling out of these things. So the tech stuff, we don't put any money anymore in that hardly. They get out of stuff, they fund their own stuff. So it's just -- to me, it's a nice accelerator on the overall narrative and the broader story.

Mike, just to that point, as you said, there's a few companies out there that are definitely also having these sort of venture investment decisions and schemes in the group, how do you think about that kind of crystallization of -- as you said, the market is probably not valuing it as generous as they ought to. Do you think there are ways to try and shift that? Or are you not really too focused on that...

Look, in the inevitable -- in the history of Liberty, there's been lots of ways to create value. You could spin these off, you could track them. You could exit them, right? So the value creation comes, both in terms of bringing the technology and software to the opcos who benefit directly. It comes in exiting the businesses when they ultimately exit or go public. And it also could possibly be something that we spin or track over time to create value. I mean, I'm trying to not overly complicate the narrative, I'm trying to simplify the narrative. But on the other hand, as you point out, there are ways of creating transparent value for these things. And I just think investors should know we're making good decisions. We're not -- we're making decisions that are grounded in our business principally and are working. So...

That makes sense. Well, Mike, thanks very much for the time. Much appreciate it. And thanks to everyone for listening to the call as well.

Thanks, everybody. Take care.

Take care.