Liberty Global Ltd. (LBTYA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome, Mike. Thank you very much for joining us today. It's a real honor to have you here. You don't need much in the form of introductions, I think. But just in case, over 3 decades in the industry, you run one of the largest converged telcos in the world. You're also Chairman of Latin America. So I think you have an amazingly broad view of what goes on in this industry, of course, through your ventures portfolio, you're also active in many different markets beyond the telco space, which we'll talk about as well. So really looking forward to the perspective you can give us here. And maybe given the sort of global view you have, maybe we start very high level, our industry at the moment. You can take a sort of glass half empty view if you really want, looking at TSR, looking at pressure on the top line, competition, especially in Europe, when you're looking at these markets with quite a large number of operators compared to some other parts of the world. You could take a glass half full view and say, after COVID, in the age of scaling AI, actually, I think everyone is more aware than ever how important connectivity and how important telcos are to all of our lives to business, the society to governments and so on. What's your take on the industry sort of broadly?

That's a great question. Good way to start. As you said, I have been operating in this industry for 35 years, so long time. And I have seen or I guess I've read all the chapters. I've listed all the chapters, right? I remember, of course, pre-Internet when CNN and MTV, all we could do was we couldn't get it out there fast enough. And of course, the rise of the Internet, the Internet bubble, the race for broadband market share, drive for convergence, which we led to a large degree, all the CapEx cycles that James has been writing about for however long we've been writing about them, all the disruption, right, that we've experienced with streaming and big tech guys and also what I would describe as the sort of regulatory paralysis or purgatory, whatever you want to say. And that's where I'll start because quite frankly, if you look back over our industry, John Malone likes to say this all the time, you live long enough, you see everything twice, you've seen it all, and regulators have this incredible impact in ways that we don't realize in the moment always. But over time, [indiscernible] are clear. And we've only asked for 3 things in this industry. We've asked for some kind of level playing field. We've asked for some ability to consolidate and build scale, given how critical we are apparently and the right to get some kind of return on our investment. And historically, we have been very bad at that. We have lost most of those battles, right? We certainly lost the level playing field battle. Net neutrality for those who are old enough to remember, we lost that battle and here we are today. Big Tech runs the show. We lost a battle on consolidation. There's 120 mobile operators in this region, just in Europe alone, there's only 3 in America. Explain that makes no sense. And certainly, we've lost the ball off battle on returns because there's an obsession with prices to the exclusion of investment and innovation in Europe has always been the case, the lowest prices in the modern world really. So as a result, our stocks have been -- this is where I thought we were going. Our stocks have been tough the last 8 years in particular. Now having said that, I'm a glass half full guy. You can't be in this business as long as I have been and not be an optimist. And there are real reasons to be positive, I think. There are some -- there's real things occurring here, some green shoots -- number one, regulators seem to have woken up, whether it's the [ Draghi ] report or what's happening geopolitically, I don't know. But it's clear that they see how important our network and infrastructure is and how we have been really regulated to a point where our -- we will survive, but we're not investing, we're not innovating. So a huge gap to Europe's 2030 goals, EUR 200 billion has to be spent. So they're starting to realize that if they're going to get it right in Europe, they got back off. And in this country as well, you've seen this government has made it clear that regulation will not be the reason that they don't seek investment, that we don't grow and that's smart because it doesn't cost anything to do regulate, it's free. You don't have to tax anybody. It's a win-win. So I'm positive. Commercial momentum is returning slowly. I think we're starting to see the end of the CapEx cycle, the latest CapEx cycle and stocks are up, right? You know we're up 15%. I mean it's been a good year-to-date, one of the best-performing sectors. And it's still cheap. There's any equity players out there. We're still really cheap compared to historical valuations compared to the market valuations and compared to where we each see ourselves or some of the parts or whatever you can do. But there's a reason to be positive. And I remain positive. I think you have to be optimistic. The ecosystem is kind of bending our way. We delivered 10x as much data today we did 5 years ago. It's going nowhere but up. So our role in this ecosystem is critical. We are the digital railways for everything, AI and everything beyond. So I think there's reason to be positive.

Yes. And you talked about sort of regulation and hopefully it's going in the right direction. What about sort of innovation? You were at Mobile Congress as well, right? What did you take away? What sense did you get there? What stuck out?

I think if we're being honest with one another. There's no return on 5G, 0 in the retail segment. You have to have it. It's a hygiene factor. But the only reason to go to 5G SA is for enterprise. So the most interesting things I saw in Barcelona were around B2B, the things that we can do with this network in a sophisticated way, the ability to essentially build private networks, customized networks for principally enterprise consumers, that's super exciting with open gateway, the initiative that GSMA has been pushing where we, as an industry of 6 billion cell phones can actually get together so that there's -- you have to build one API to integrate with everybody globally. There's some things happening in the industry that are really exciting, but they're mostly around enterprise. I would say the consumer innovation is slow. And I'm not that -- I mean, do I need -- I don't have the iPhone 16. Should I get it? I don't know. I mean what's pushing consumer excitement in the mobile space pricing, that's the problem. If it's cheaper, they want it. If it's better, they're not so sure. So I think we have a long way to go on the consumer side.

Yes. Very interesting. And I think -- maybe taking it a little bit to Liberty now specifically and picking up on where you just left off in terms of mass market or B2B. I mean, of course, one of the things you've done for many years, very successfully has played the FMC game. Now you're doing a bit more of the unbundling in terms of the RetailCo or ServCo or you want to call it NetCo. You've done that very successfully in Belgium with Wire. It's now underway in the U.K. with VMO2. What in your view is required to actually drive shareholder value and the successful setup of a NetCo, what have you sort of learned there because, of course, not everyone is finding that journey particularly easy in the industry?

Yes, it's interesting. Just building on the regulatory point. People -- when you're in the U.S. people are confused by delayering. They go, what do you mean NetCo, ServCo. Why are you doing this? How did it come about? And the truth is, we have, again, regulators to blame because they forced incumbents to open up networks that devalue the network, it allowed anybody with the brand to get into the retail business and created a new revenue stream called wholesale and here we are today. That's my explanation for it. But I think you need a few things to be -- I mean, why is it interesting? Why do we have to be looking at it? The economics are different, right? The valuations are higher in an infrastructure company. The cost of capital is lower. You can put more debt on an infrastructure asset. So we created this -- really this new asset class is what it is. That's really the one way to think about it. It's not sophisticated. It's not highly technological. It's a new asset class and a new financial engineering program for a lot of players. Now it has -- and it only works if 3 things add up. And only 3 things. You can sit through a million meetings on this. It's just 3 things: the cost to build, the utilization rate and the wholesale ARPU. If you can get those 3 things right, I mean fourth would be market structure because we were just talking about this market where there's 100 people building fiber. Most of those will not be here in a year or 2 or 3 just can't be because again, these are railways. You can't have 100 railways in the same destination. So there will be a shakeout here. And the reason is those 3 things: cost to build, utilization rate and wholesale ARPU. So getting that right in a particular market is not easy, it doesn't work everywhere. And then where it doesn't work, there's a third thing you have to get right and that is alignment between the NetCo and the ServCo. Are these 2 entities incented properly to drive growth, migration, all those good things. You have good talent on both sides. So the relationship between the 2 entities is also quite critical and not easy, not easy at all. We're already there in Belgium because the regulator there forced us to open up our cable networks, which is the first on the planet, but we did it. And that's an example of a winner because we already have 60-plus percent utilization on the network. Just to put that in comparison, I mean, we have 35%, 40% on our networks of our own customers. I think the average of that is 10% or something. But we're at 60-something percent in Belgium. So we've got the economics right. And secondly, we're going to have the -- we're likely to restructure the fiber market so that the market structure is right, with really just one of them. We're working with the incumbent there to share the fiber market. So the government seems to have realized, I don't need 2 fiber networks. How about just one, you do it here, you do it there, and we'll use each other. So it's becoming that kind of commodity at railway. And so in some circumstances, it works. In others, it doesn't. But it's -- those are the drivers. I mean, I rattled a lot of things out, but those are the real drivers. You may have a different view. But to me, those are the real drivers.

Actually, Mike, I'd like to follow up on this and the kind of the [indiscernible] InfraCos and how we create value on the ServCo side as well. And are super interested by the point you raised on what you saw in Barcelona about growth on the B2B side and innovation there. If you're kind of thinking now about what does it take to then be a winner on the ServCo side, I think we've talked about B2B with cable businesses for years and probably fair to say the growth there never quite been fulfilled. Do you think now that's actually a turning point for these ServCo businesses?

Well, let's talk about ServCos because I think, again, it's highly situational. Every ServCo we've been involved with or may be involved with still owns its mobile network. So it's the relationship between ServCo and NetCo really only deals with the fixed network, right? In Belgium, we own -- the ServCo owns a mobile network. If we were to do it here, VMO2 is going to own the mobile network. And for somebody believe that's where all the juice and excitement is anyway, that all this growth in B2B enterprise, not ICT, not that stuff, but all the network slicing, all these things are happening on the mobile network. And that's the exciting thing anyway. That fiber thing, we just have to have that. We don't know that we want it. We're happy to rent it, happy to own it, not so sure. So when we talk about NetCo, ServCo, let's be sure remember that the ServCos actually are highly network dependent. They're owners of mobile networks. That's point one. And I think whether you own it or rent it in the fixed network side of things. If you want to be a successful ServCo in B2B or in B2C, you have to have access to incredible network capability because that will be your main success factor. Do I or don't I have access to a great network, whether I own it or rent it, then you have to do everything else right. You have to have all the commercial tools in your toolbox. You'd have to be able to differentiate with loyalty programs or quality of service or great call center activities. You have to be able to have a product that people want. You have to have brands that serve every segment then you need all the AI and digital tools behind it to drive pricing in each of those segments. I mean, ServCos have to get everything right to be successful. And it's the same things we have to do, whether you're integrated or not integrated. So I'm optimistic that those outlined just a few of them, differentiation brand, multiple brands, flanker brands, customer segmentation, all the tools to allow you to be -- to manage your base, drive dynamic pricing, all the things that we're doing across our footprint. These are critical tools in the toolbox to be successful in a competitive retail environment. On the enterprise side, how can you not be excited by ICT in Switzerland, in Sunrise, where we have maybe 20% market share or something like that in traditional connectivity, the ICT sector is 10x bigger, and we've got no market share. Now it's lower margin, connectivity has good margins. ICT has differentiated margins, depending on what you're selling. But cloud services, all of these intelligent services that we're all just starting to get into, it's exciting. We need partners to do that, whether it's people like Google, AWS, Accenture, BCG, we need partners to build these skills and capabilities. But we're a 20% market share in the connectivity business, that means 80% is somewhere else. We should be bigger. And it's 20% of our revenue on average. So we've got a long way to go in the enterprise space.

When you look at your kind of ServCo assets, what -- where do you see over the next few years? Do you think there's the opportunity for Liberty Global to be, let's say, most differentiated and to compete most strongly against your peers?

Yes. Every market has a different superpower, right? In Holland, our superpower is content. Ziggo Sport has your wafer rights. We used to have F1 rights -- it's an incredible brand. It was the fifth highest-rated TV channel, and we're not even a TV channel or a premium cable channel. So in that market, I think content has been a super power. We have to keep differentiating there. Here, I think our super power, quite frankly, in the U.K. has been these AI and digital tools. Our ability -- we're seeing it in our fixed broadband base, our ability to dynamically price product. We have 6 million plus or minus customers. We have like 100,000 different pricing plans. That means we're not the segment of one yet. We're in a segment of 60 but that's pretty important to be able -- when that person calls, you've got something to retain. So we're seeing ARPU grow in the fixed business. So that I think we have great brands here, of course, O2, Virgin Mia, they're great brands. But I think our superpower, historically or more recently has been this ability to manage our base and manage customer segments. In Switzerland, it's brand. Sunrise and Switzerland is an incredible product and their loyalty programs there. We have Roger Federer, we have Swiss-Ski team. People want to be part of that. So we have a great product with one of the best mobile networks on the planet. Everything is great. But I think the Sunrise brand, I think, is really critical there. And there's a few things. It depends in each market, but we're pushing all the same buttons. We want each of those things to work.

And maybe to start to talk a little bit about some of the other activities you've been doing across the Liberty growth. I mean I actually think there's not a lot of examples of telcos that have been as active as you have been in terms of building up a real ventures portfolio and there's some really sizable ones along sort of tech in terms of [ Ploom ] content. You've got Formula E infrastructure, AtlasEdge and the like. How do you think about these assets sort of as part of the larger group, are they strategic investments? Are they sort of tactical investments that you plan to scale up as standalone? Do you think of them as integrating back into your business at all? Some of them? How do you think about it?

Well, it's a mixed bag. So we are 3 big silo. Liberty Telecom is 80 million connections, $22 billion of revenue. That's a telecom business. Liberty Services, which we can talk about is how we're -- what we're doing at the central company for tech and finance and things of that nature, which we talk about. And then Liberty Growth is what you're describing. It's a $3 billion portfolio today, 3 principal verticals, tech, content media and infrastructure. And from my point of view, it looks fragmented and complicated from the outside, 70 investments, how do I keep track of this? But 7 investments represent 75% of the value. 7, 3 of them are media. We own 10% of ITV. We own a piece of a platform called TelevisaUnivision, which is a large Spanish language streamer and broadcaster in the world. And we own Formula E, 65% of it. And then on the infrastructure side, we own AtlasEdge, EdgeConneX and nexfibre here in the U.K. So those 6 -- and then we have 5% of Vodafone. We would like to be a higher price, but we're working on it. But those 7 things represents 75% of the value. And they also were kind of in isolation or looking at each of them are sort of where we think our strengths are. In Infrastructure, listen, the demand for power, connectivity, cooling, space is insatiable. So we're using our own infrastructure to step into those data center opportunities, and that's what we've done with AtlasEdge. In sports, it's not easy to own a global sports franchise. We own one called Formula E. It's the fastest-growing racing platform. It's still small with 400 million viewers around the world or fans growing 25% a year. But so many things are going right there. I mean, just a longer conversation, but that's the kind of thing it can be really valuable over the next 3 to 5 years. I would say this about the growth platform. If we could make more investments, they will not be dozens and dozens of small things. They will be larger, scalable strategic positions. So we may do none. We may not find anything. So we're going to be a lot more discriminating than perhaps we may have been in the last 10 years. Secondly, it's a great source of capital. So if you follow our story, and I don't know if any of you do, but rotating capital around is a big thing for us. So we sold $900 million worth of assets last year, and we used a lot of that money to buy stock, 10% of the shares but also to get our Swiss business public to delever that business. We said publicly we'll sell $500 million to $750 million this year. So it's a source of capital for us, which is really the right thing. You have to be disciplined about capital allocation. So having said all of that, since we've spun off Sunrise, and our market cap is now understandably lower because we've spun off a big chunk of the business. It's become a larger piece of the puzzle. You have to talk about it. We have to get you to understand it and we have to be more transparent about what we're going to do with it, which we have been and will be. By the way, that spin is a perfect example of this market feeling better, just to give you quick stats. We took 20% of our proportionate EBITDA, spun it out into a Swiss publicly traded stock. And in the process, gave our investors a tax-free $9 dividend on what was an $18 stock. So we gave a $9 tax-free dividend on what was an $18 stock by spinning off 20% of our proportionate EBITDA. Why? Because in our holding company, it was valued at 5.5%, but the Swiss investors love it at 8x EBITDA because it's got a dividend, it's more -- so there are ways of creating value. This is where we're different than BT. We're different than Vodafone. We just are thinking differently about how we create value for shareholders, if there's any shareholders out there. This is what we spend a lot of time thinking about is how do we create value at the end of this process, this journey. And that's just one example of how we've done it.

If we think about how you rotate capital around and create value and like what's reflected in the share price, I'm sure we could debate that for hours, but maybe one area that's maybe not fully valued is the Liberty Growth portfolio. And I mean is that, therefore, an area that, over time, you could potentially want to kind of extract capital from on a net basis to highlight that value more clearly to shareholders? Or do you see this as a kind of longer-term play where you would actually be net contributors of capital into that venture?

To me, it's a great question. And the answer is, it all depends. What do I mean by that? We've said this publicly. To me, the Liberty Telecom side of our business, VMO2, all the business you know and love and write about, there's a lot of embedded value there. I just demonstrated that in the Switzerland example. If we have to put capital into those businesses, we will to get to a -- not an end game day per se, but a better state of value crystallization, monetization, whatever it looks like. And if I have to take capital out of growth to do that, we'll do it like we did last year. And however, if there's an incredible opportunity, we might put more capital in. But I think right now, we're a net. We're exiting on a net basis out of the growth portfolio and putting that -- and as you say, demonstrating the value of those assets as we do it and putting that money to good work either back into unique but really differentiated investments in growth or as fuel for our Liberty Telecom strategies, really more strategic strategies versus, say, operational strategies to create value for shareholders.

I suppose I'm afraid I have to ask this, but a kind of natural segue, Mike, what you just said is if you would think about rotating capital, one of the areas that's been reported recently you might be interested in is putting some of that capital into increasing your stake in VodafoneZiggo. What would you say to that? Is that a path to and create value through merging it with Telenet? It's just great to get your thoughts on -- anything you can say on that at the moment.

Well, obviously, I can't say anything. There's nothing to say. And people don't feel back because people have asked me the same question for 8 or 9 years. It's a good -- a really good partnership with Vodafone. I really feel like we're always opportunistic, but nothing to add to that.

Okay. We'll watch this space. So maybe one area maybe I could then press you more kind of general about M&A is you've done a lot of successful in-market FMC transactions, industrial mergers here in the U.K. Obviously, VodafoneZiggo was part of that Sunrise UPC. Where do you see it kind of next leg of, let's say, industrial M&A for Liberty Global, if I think about your core assets?

Well, first of all, I would start in the markets we're in. I don't see us necessarily adding 1 or 2 or 3 new markets. I think we're -- we like where we are, and we're going to focus capital and attention on those businesses. This market, obviously, there will be a lot of M&A in the altnet space, just going to happen whether we're involved or not involved, watch the space. Let's see what goes on there. Ireland, where we don't have a mobile asset there. We might look at complementing that. It's the one market where we don't have a mobile asset, and we have nothing on the books. There's no transaction to describe, but theoretically, down the road, that could be something we would look at. Belgium, we're in the process of really rationalizing the fiber market. So I don't see us necessarily -- we're already investing in a Wire, which is our NetCo there. And Holland, look, there's -- Holland there's 2 altnets in Holland, and we've had lots of conversations you would expect us to about market rationalization. And so far, nothing's popped, but they're private equity owned, and at some point, there might be interesting opportunities for us. But that's probably all I can comment on.

And a small pivot given time is running, and I wouldn't be a good adviser if I wasn't bringing Gen AI back on the table. I think you've mentioned the work that VMO2 is doing. We've heard all about AI at Mobile World Congress. We're talking about the GenTech, all these things. Where do you see the biggest opportunities for Liberty Global leveraging AI/Gen AI, however you want to exactly call it? And then also maybe just a little add-on question. And how do you think about managing that across the group? You have 4 OpCos, you have a center. How do you drive that to scale, to value?

Yes. Listen, I think the telco sector is going to benefit from AI in really meaningful ways, but very marginal way. What do I mean by that? If I look at the things that we're doing, basic stuff, right? Make the call center experience, happier, faster, reduced call handling times, check. Make sure you're consuming power on the radio access network only when you need it, reduce power consumption, check. Reduce network outages and truck rolls, check. These are all really important things, but they're not game changers. When you add them all up, it's a pretty big number because a small number multiplied by a big number is a big number. I learned that a long time ago. And so we will -- we've said publicly $200 million, $300 million of OpEx, 1% to 2%, we're going to get there. So for our industry, there are so many opportunities. You're helping us think those through. So many opportunities where we can improve general economics, marginal customer experience, marginal retention. But you add all that up, it's big. So we're doing that because if we don't do it, we have to do that. But it feels to me like we're just scratching the surface. I mean, I said this -- maybe I said this Mobile World Congress on stage, I felt like a year ago, it was a 10-kilometer race and we were 100 meters in but 10 kilometers, I can do that. Now it feels like a 100-kilometer racing, we're 110 meters in. The things that we're looking at that we're talking about that you're working on are incredible. The ability to take your network and basically go to an enterprise customer and say, whatever you need. I'm opening it up to you, build, design, whatever you need for your business, your enterprise, your customers and it's not one size fits all. Now we walk in with a piece of paper like that and say, "Hey, you want A, B or C, pick your choice." So those kinds of things are incredible. The hyperpersonalization that doesn't exist today. Okay, it's one thing to say, I call up, you quickly know who I am. You get me to the right agent. But that's not what you're working on. We want to have this ability to actually know you're going to call before you call. In fact, don't even allow you to call, call you and tell you exactly what's going on and get you to understand the products and opportunities in front of you. And then if it's us or an agent or bot, I mean these have other pros and cons, but that will all happen. In energy consumption, I think there's going to be globally, I think AI is a 10%, 20%, 30% of reductions in energy consumption that could be transformational for data centers for all these other areas. So we are just scratching the service. I'm excited about the future, but I feel like we're just walking. We're not running yet. And I'm trying to push my team to start thinking about the race.

I think a little -- I personally think you're further than 110 meters. But yes, there's a long way to go, of course. I have one last question from my side that I think is a very -- for me, a very interesting and important one. I mean I've worked with you on your team for many years now. And I've always found it quite unique how you balance tactical market actions and really longer-term strategy and how extremely value as a shareholder value-driven, you are and how close you are to the business. How do you think about leadership in the context of sort of quite a complex company as Liberty Global? What are sort of some of the principles that drive your style of running this firm?

Well, I'll try to say something original. That's not easy because you get the same answer from any CEO. Look, I do believe it starts with people. In our case, what's different? On average, I've worked with my core team between 15 and 30 years. I think when you have that kind of history with people where you've seen the good days, and you've got a lot of scar tissue from the bad days, it's really valuable. So having a core team around, not just a talented team, but a team where there's trust, where there's alignment, where there's accountability, I think that is the most important thing, for any leader to be able to get things done. I would say being agile, it sounds super fancy consulting term. But if I look at our history, we were in 50 countries at one point. Now I'm talking about 4 and 5. Why did we move? Why did we exit Asia? Why did we spin off Latin America? Why do we get out of France and Norway and Sweden? That's a longer conversation, but I'm happy to talk about it. Being agile with your asset base, being agile with your strategy, being able to pivot change direction is critical. And then thirdly, being able to turn around to your people and then tell them why you did that and have them go, you know what, that makes perfect sense to me because I know about what we stand for. I understand our purpose. I understand our culture. I want to work here out of the way. So you can do those 3 things. You can't be super successful, be agile, make [indiscernible] returns, changed strategies when needed and then have the team, the broader company follow you along if you don't have a culture that people want to be part of that. And maybe lastly, you've got to stay optimistic. You started out by saying, are you a glass half full? I'm definitely a glass-half-full guy. In principle, I think you have to be, you got to be realistic, you got to be disciplined, you got to be honest. But if you're not optimistic, I mean, this is the coolest ecosystem to be in right now of any ecosytem. I don't want to be in the car business. I don't really want to be in the pharmaceutical business. I want to be in this business because this is where the heat, the light, the excitement the energy is. And we're -- it doesn't happen without us. The key question is, how do we do it, create some value along the way, make sure it's not all going to the Silicon Valley guys or the regulators aren't damaging the business model. I mean -- so there's a lot to get it right, but it's an awfully exciting place to be working.

I'll finish with maybe one last question.

[indiscernible]

Sorry, it's about [indiscernible] I thought...

Let's go back to ARPU.

We've got no -- not ARPU, but just go back to the topic of innovation.

Of course. Of course.

Because -- and consumer innovation as a glass half full guy, because that was probably the one thing I heard you say where actually it didn't sound quite as glass half full as I thought it might be. And I'm just trying to think about how could we think about consumer innovation. We've seen, I think some of your other telcos start selling, let's say, other products alongside it, could you look at maybe different pricing strategies in different regions? How can we become, let's say, glass half full on the consumer innovation side?

Well, the good news there is we have partners, right? Apple is creating incredible stuff, Perplexity, anybody use Perplexity is, I think, the single best search engine, AI engine out there, and they're doing deals with us, right? We are exclusively distributing Perplexity in this market like we did Spotify or Disney+. So partnering with big tech, partnering with the Magnificent 7, whatever you want to call them, partnering with these folks because their innovation cycle when it comes to consumer products and services is much better than ours. But if we don't have it, we can't deliver it, we can't find ways to package it and bundle it and get it to our customers and we're not benefiting. So to me, it's a partnership on the consumer side with folks who are just better at it than we are. We can be creative on pricing, and we are. We can do really smart things like loyalty and multiple brands and slice and dice segments, and we'll do all that. I think AI will have a meaningful impact on the customer experience we ultimately are delivering. When, TBD, exactly what it looks like, we'll find out. But that hyperpersonalization, just to give you a catch-all phrase, that's going to change the game for consumers. We're working on some skunk work startups. I'm in the business now. I'm not hiring people, but hiring entrepreneurs and just saying, okay, you got that, fine. We'll fund you. Here's an office. If it works, it's ours, if it's not on your next thing. And there are some really cool business models around AI, advertising, mobile that will, I think, change the game. I mean, Smart Home is a terrible term but there's a reason why it doesn't exist. So whoever gets that right, that will be interesting. So that -- there's lots of innovation happening behind the scene. I did -- he asked me specifically at Mobile World Conference and I said there, I really saw enterprise innovation but there's a lot of stuff happening.

Well, that is a good last half full note to finish on. So yes, on behalf of Max and myself, yes, Mike, thank you so much indeed for being with us.

Thank you, guys. Thanks. Good to see you all.