LiveOne, Inc. (LVO) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Awesome. So I'm Craig Rosoff. I lead the consumer entertainment practice with JPMorgan's investment banking team. Joining me today, Rob Ellin, Co-Founder, CEO, LiveOne. Good to see you again, Rob.

Thank you, Craig.

So Rob, before LiveOne, you've sort of done this in the past where you've come through, you've built businesses, started small, built them up. I know iWon, founded, eventually sold to Barry Diller at IAC. And then Digital Turbine, you did something very similar to LiveOne, came in, built a collection of assets. And eventually, that business traded up somewhere around $3-plus billion in market cap. Tell me a little bit about the journey with LiveOne.

Sure. So we set out a little over 4.5 years ago to build a moat, right? And that flywheel included having the first super high-end subscription membership platform for creators, creators first, starting with music and built off the backs of music. So it's been a short but long run already, right? In a very short period of time, we've built $100 million plus in revenues and over 2.3 million members.

That's amazing. And during that journey, I think you've bought somewhere around 6 companies at this point?

Yes. Very similar to Digital Turbine, we've aggregated, right, great assets fit together, right? Sum of the parts is super exciting. And as you separate the parts, right, a lot of people are looking at those assets and understanding each one of them has its own TAM and all sizable TAM in it. Starting with music. There's going to be 1.7 billion paying subscribers, let alone all the subscribers. And what we've told The Street is we're going to hit 10 million subscribers within 5 years.

That's great. And so maybe for some of the folks, that are listening online, maybe a little bit less familiar with the business itself. Maybe just walk us through the different assets that you've acquired and what that does from a flywheel perspective for you?

Sure. So start with audio. We own -- we bought Slacker Radio from some partners here in Boston, including Columbia Capital, Mission and Rho. They had spent $180 million building it. It's one of the first ever music subscription platforms. And what was really exciting about that was multiple pieces. One, partnerships every music label, every publisher right across the board. Number two, a tech -- world-class technology team, very hard to find. We picked off a team that has stayed together now for almost 20 years. And number three is we got this very unique partnership that at the time was about $200,000 with Elon Musk and Tesla to be the default radio in every single Tesla car. You can imagine the moat that was built there.

Yes. Yes. So on Tesla, Tesla, obviously, an important relationship for you and the company. Talk a little bit about the relationship with Tesla. What's that like today? How do you expect that to evolve over the next few years?

It's been exciting for anyone who's been involved in my companies. In any one of the acquisitions, we look for that unique partnership where you have a growth company that could be explosive and be a thought leader in the world. And what we loved about what Elon did and what he did with Tesla is he wanted to white label his own music platform. And if you saw the announcement today of what people are talking about, he's going to do with Twitter and music, right? The guys, his brain works faster than anybody else. And what he knew is if he put it in Tesla radio and white labeled it, he was talking to its consumers every day. What are they going to do? They're going to buy more cars, right? And so we're really excited about where this partnership is going. Obviously, $100 oil price, scary number, but it just means more and more battery-operated cars, more and more Teslas hitting the road. And every single Tesla car is built today with Slacker Radio in it. What they've done now is Elon has now taken and put in the entire connectivity package into one bundle for just about $10 a month. And we're part of that bundle. That's part of having Internet service in your car, mapping in those cars, music in your car. It's hard to imagine an average of $70,000 that anyone is going to turn down having connectivity in their cars. So it gets really exciting, and we get paid directly from Tesla. There's massive opportunities to grow together. We just announced adding all of our podcasts in the cars. So when you look at your screen in a Tesla, you're going to see our podcasts are the only podcast you're going to see in those cars because it's an opportunity for our creators, our podcasters, over 300 of them to be able to talk to the Adam Carollas of the world, the Lady Gangs of the world to be able to talk to those consumers and be able to bring them products as well. So really exciting. There's opportunities to expand overseas, to expand to Europe. There's opportunities to take those customers out of the car, right, and have a much bigger opportunity with them to utilize our service on your phones and your home.

Great. And you touched on this, obviously, a little bit and maybe Tesla is the largest B2B relationship that you have today, but how important, I guess, are those B2B relationships? Do you want to expand beyond Tesla? Do you like Tesla as sort of a primary partner? How do you think about them?

All of my business is built, we're not going to win -- I'm never the guy who's raising $1 billion to build these companies, right? Just like Digital Turbine, we're going to build in partnership with B2B partners that already have massive audiences, right? Who are our partners today, right? Sound interesting because some of our competitors, iHeart. iHeart puts all of their live streaming content on our platform, right? Spotify, right? It's a great partnership, right? We just did a nice event with them, plus they -- we put all of our podcasts across their network, right? So these massive networks, Apple is a partner for our podcast, right? Same thing we're going to do in audio, video, podcasting, live streaming. Each one of those is going to have a partner with huge growth. What do we do in pay-per-view? We immediately partner with Facebook and their 2.5 billion eyeballs, right? And we sold over 200,000 pay-per-views in no time. So we're going to continue to utilize this. You're going to see more and more partnerships. It's going to be a laser focus of this company now that we're maturing, now that we have well over $100 million in revenues, we understand our business better. You're going to see partnerships with equipment companies, gym equipments, loyalty programs, more car companies, right? And those opportunities are really coming fast and furious. And even though we've just consolidated and taken some costs out of the business, one of the areas we're going to grow is our biz dev in partnerships with those B2B.

Great. A few months ago, you announced a pretty big initiative in launching memberships for the platform. What does a membership model mean to you? What does that enable you to deliver to both customers and consumers that differentiates you from some of the other folks out there?

So great question. What did we build here? We said we were taking the playbook from ESPN to deliver the next-generation MTV, right? Bought up the rights to 2,500 biggest live music events, bought some of the most important podcasts, right? Put all those pieces together, livestream over 2,000 artists and have this massive community, right, at 55 billion listens, 2.4 billion downloads of our podcast, 5 billion engagements across our live, right? What we're building? We're building towards membership. So we've now moved the name of our subscription to membership. Why did we do that? We now have the ability to offer those superfans, the ability not only to have the audio, the 40 million songs in the live streaming, but we can now take you backstage in green room and buy tickets to our events. So you can have now, like American Express did years ago, membership has privileges. Our audience now has unique privileges, including NFTs. We just announced a massive partnership with Polygon, right? Polygon is building -- polygon and Sirius are building our entire NFT platform, right? Their cost. So really exciting. The direction of where membership is growing. For the first time ever, we just announced our free membership. We now have 2.3 million members, 1.5 million paying, almost 800,000 free subscribers. And about 6% to 7% of those are converting into long-term membership.

Great. That's impressive in a pretty short period of time. So on that note, maybe, how do you think about expanding the membership base? How do you think about attracting new members, marketing to new members? And then what are you seeing so far if you can tell us around member retention dynamics and the uptick?

So we have unfairly the lowest churn in the industry because we have partnerships with Verizon, T-Mobile, right, similar to what Disney did with Verizon, right, you get those members in it, and you're getting some sticky customers, but also with the lowest price by far, we're $0.40 on the dollar. At under $4, we're 40% of which Spotify and Apple are, right? And we're delivering all this unique IP that you cannot get anywhere else, right? That's really the uniqueness to it. So how are we going to grow those memberships? Number one is we're going to have more car companies. Number two is we're going to have more partnerships, right, with the carriers around the world. I built Digital Turbine in partnership with 68 carriers around the globe. I haven't yet expanded overseas, even though 30% of our audience is overseas, but there's a very unique opportunity to do that, right? And then you're going to see partnerships. You're going to see B2B partnerships with watch companies, right? We're the only ones who have the ability to be totally nimble like we did with Tesla and be able to price music. You may get a little less music, but you may have something where you have a technology that has -- is only for kids and it needs music, right? Now it's $2 a month because you're only getting kids music. Very few companies have that ability to be nimble, take their prices down, price it and also put X amount of content in. So in all licenses, we have that luxury and flexibility. I think you're going to see a staggering amount of B2B deals announced shortly.

Great. And earlier, you mentioned superfans. I'm curious how you think about the value proposition for LiveOne for the superfan and how you think about the value proposition for the regular consumer just on their way to work and how LiveOne serves those, either the same or differently?

Yes. So how do we define superfans? They love their creators, right? Podcasters have this unique ability to deliver a message for a sponsor, right, that is how it's Stern-like, right? You're actually talking to Adam Carolla; he's talking to his audience who are superfans. We probably have been with him for 20-plus years, right? They uniquely are positioned to buy a product that you recommend. What we've done is we believe that's superfans -- we'll never win one customer at a time. Those superfans, artists, creators tell their fans come listen or watch on LiveOne, right? When they do that, we're bringing in an audience that are those superfans. What are those superfans? The superfans are looking to spend money. They want to buy merchandise. They want to buy tickets, right? They want to attend backstage. They want to attend backstage digital. They want to buy an NFT. That is a really unique audience that is the ones that are going to spend $100, $1,000 a year on their favorite or favorite artist or favorite creator.

And you've built all the pieces to capture all of those, it seems?

Yes. I mean, we've done an exceptional job of surviving COVID, right? Our partners, we're all live music companies and live partners. They all shut down for 2 years. Somehow we grew from 38 million to we publicly announced 112 million for March 31, which was our year-end, right? And we came out of that and we came out stronger than ever, right? I think we're really well positioned now to expand that and grow that dramatically and continue to do that.

Great. We've somewhat subtly been talking about the evolution of the business and how you've been adding on pieces and diversifying the business over time. You started primarily music, music subscription related. How important is music subscription? How does the diversification of the business continue to play out? Where do you see that going?

Great question. Our entire business is built off the backs of music, right? When you think about digital, Apple, YouTube, trillions of dollars of value has been created off the backs of music, right? Music, music, 8 billion people in this world, 8 billion people love music. Different genres of music. So we have that massive opportunity, that TAM and what they're going to do. And again, 1.7 billion paying subscribers by 2027. So it's all built off the back of music, right? What we do is we culturally, we take music and we think of culture, right, and where the direction it's going in, make sure that it is not just music, you tie in that crossover drill between creators of music and all of the pop culture. We've done some amazing events with social media stars with sports stars, with e-sports stars. And I love that combination when you put them together, right? But every single time you hit home, there has to be something really special on the music side of it.

Yes. Your business, and you mentioned multiple $100-plus billion TAMs, your business is pretty uniquely positioned next to the consumer in a lot of different end markets. And I'm curious to see what your business is experiencing and how you're sort of interpreting current consumer sentiment market dynamics, what are your consumers saying to you?

I think right now, you're watching -- it's a scary moment, right, what's going on in everything in the world right now. But as you look at where we are today, right, the TAMs of each of our verticals is exploding, right? Music, 1.7 billion. Podcasting, I publicly said in an interview that I thought podcasting, this is 2 years ago when I bought it, it was going to grow to 5 billion. I take that back. It's going to be well over 10 billion, right? Pay-per-view. We all know the pay-per-view has been around for 25 years, but no one's done it digitally where we can reach the entire globe, right? Now you have an opportunity to reach the entire globe instead of across HBO and Showtime, right? Now you can reach the entire globe. So we have -- each of our TAMs is exploding. We have to be smart about it. We have to be careful, right? You have a limited amount of capital and you're in a very, very difficult environment. So we carefully looked at everything. And as we see it today is we want to make sure that we focus on bottom line. We want to focus now. The revenues have now ramped up, very similar to LiveOne, very similar to Digital Turbine. As you break that $100 million, you want to absolutely look at where the bottom line is. I just publicly announced, we took our guidance up again, $125 million to $140 million and $5 million to $10 million of EBITDA. We're going to continue to look at how we grow that, right, and continue to how we take those numbers up even higher.

Great. And I'm going to circle back to that, the financial point a little bit. But your service uniquely priced relative to a lot of the other folks, offers a tremendous value to your consumers, your subscribers. Given the current market backdrop, how do you think about pricing power? Is there the ability to raise price?

I think in music, right, it's very hard because Apple has the ability, right, to give almost any price because there's so much more they get out of the customer, right? Starting with selling the phones, right? And same thing for Amazon, right? They're using music app 66 million subscribers and YouTube the same. They have way more services and business is driving off it, right? For us, we had to make sure that our price was right. We're the lowest by far in the industry, right? We're positioned with the best margins. And the reason we have the best margins is because our content is built at a top level around original programming. The more the consumer uses it, the more they use the original programming, right, the less percentage -- the higher our margin is going to be, the less percentage that is going out the door. So I think we're really well positioned as you're watching pricing go up, right? We talked about it before, Craig. Netflix is now at $20 a month, right? Spotify is going at $12.99 a month. I don't see any reason that we can't grow. We grew from $2.80 to now close to $4. I don't see any reason we can't get to $5 or $6 in the more original program and the more IP. We're only 4 years into this, right? Steve Bornstein, who joined my Board, Steve called us publicly the ESPN of music, right? It takes years, right? It takes 7 to 10 years to really build enough original program. Because of COVID, right, you were delayed 2 years. Now all of a sudden, right, we have a staggering amount of IP, and we're starting to win a lot of awards for a little company, a lot of awards around our original programming. And yes, we have a great team. We have a great Board. We have a great management team that have created over $100 billion of media and technology companies.

Yes. And you've referenced a couple of times 1.7 billion streamers in the next 10 years, which I think is a view our house shares. How do you sort of compete for your share of that? You mentioned you're 2 million plus today. You mentioned going to 10 million. How do you drive that? How do you actually achieve that over the next few years?

So I'm a huge believer, I've spent 30 years around the original programming. All of my companies have been mobile-centric and have had unique content, you can't get anywhere else. So it starts with that. Number two is pricing. Number three is B2B partnerships, right? We're not going to win one consumer at a time, right? So we have to partner with companies that need our help, right? We have put together a moat that gives him an opportunity to have an amazing amount of content. I look and view, anyone with 10 million to 2.5 billion eyeballs, again, as just an example of the amount of companies out there, there's so much distribution, and we're watching, Craig. We're watching every day the consolidation. That's going to continue, right? As pricing has come down and valuation come down, I think you're going to see a staggering amount of consolidation in this business, and it's going to look more and more like cable. Everyone forgets in cable, audio was a big component of it, right? Music Choice had more channels than anybody. I think we're right now in that position that we're really well suited, right, to be a strategic partner, right, and have distribution to many of these same partners now in audio, video, podcasting and pay-per-view.

Great. A lot of the growth in the music streaming market seems to be coming from international, at least over the next few years. The U.S. feels pretty penetrated, pretty well saturated. Do you share that view? How do you think about U.S. growth in the future of the company? And what would you need to -- or do you care about growing internationally? And what would you need to achieve that?

So I think 2 things. One is for us, we have a massive opportunity to get more members in the U.S., right? Why? We're just small, right? We're just getting started, right? We're in the first inning of this, right? When you have the kind of community we have and the kind of traffic we have. And you have 300 creators in our podcast and you have 2,000 artists, all hitting their social media and telling their fans to come listen and watch on LiveOne. You got a real opportunity of making a dent and growing. In terms of membership programs, subscriptions, you're looking at Netflix or Spotify, 50% of the revenues come from the U.S. and 50% come globally. We don't yet have those licenses overseas. We had some work to do to work on our partnerships and clean up some payables from the Slacker acquisition. We're very proud of the team. We've done a great job. Universal Music, converted $10 million worth of their royalties into equity at $4 and change right? So we've cleaned up the balance sheet. We've cleaned up those payables. I think we're very close, we're inches away from being able to announce partnerships that will bring us into the international market, which means that we have 50% growth just on that alone.

Yes. And another big piece of the business, live events. How do you think about the importance of in-person versus digital? Where do you see the company fitting into that landscape?

So COVID stopped all this for 2 years, right? Very hard 2 years for everybody. Everybody wants to get out. The money that's being spent now is not being spent on hard goods. It's really being spent on experiential. Live music is a phenomenal place to be. There's studies on health on attending live music events, how it changes your health, right? So we know how much people love to be there. So I think there's going to be a revolution in people going to live music. I think you got to be a little bit careful, right? The cost of labor, the cost of building stages has gone up dramatically. I think you got to be smart about it and careful and make sure that if you're not Live Nation or AEG, you got to make sure you're going in there with some bullets in the gun and you got to have sponsors behind it. You got to have pre-ticket sales. You have to be able to prove it. So what we're going to do is we're going to spend a lot of our time right now in partnership. We have streamed some of the biggest music events in the world, Rock in Rio in Brazil, Sziget in Budapest, Jazz Montreux, EDC, Outside Lands. These partnerships are maturing. We need to continue to do that. And I'd like to see us, like we did with Social Gloves, with less risk and getting paid for the services we provide. So we're providing the ability to produce it better than anyone in the world. We're producing traffic no one has ever created like us. And on top of it, we're able to curate it with host and anchors and correspondence, very much like MTV did or ESPN has done to give them that unique experience, you're not going to get anywhere else.

Great. Maybe just a slight shift here. As you think about some of the -- what I think of as longer-tail growth opportunities for the business, you talked about NFTs and some of the other transactional opportunities for serving superfans. How important are those to the overall platform, I'd say? And then is it more strategic importance? Or do you think there's financial impact? And when do we see that?

Well, we carefully studied right, the NFT market. I'm a huge believer in collectibles, right? Art, wine, so on. I think digital collectible is going to be a massive market. It's going to go through some fits and starts. It's going to go through some troubled times, right? Some of these valuations got so crazy, but it's going to be a very sizable market. And I have 4 children. I watch my 3 older children all buying NFTs. They're going to learn from it. They're going to learn what right pricing is and wrong pricing is. But long term, it's going to be a big win. So we partner with Polygon, Sirius in a partnership that they're building out our NFT network. I think it's going to be a huge, huge upside in the long term. And for long term, investors that are thinking long term. And we all better start thinking longer than we used to, right? Everything got too easy for the last 2 years. I think it's really important. I think the NFT market is going to be a massive market, and I'm a big fan of it.

Great. And my next question was going to be around -- you've obviously built or acquired a lot of the pieces for your business. What else -- what do you think is missing still? What do you need to add? And I just -- before we address that, one of the questions from the audience that I think is relevant here, somebody asked, it feels like you have most of the pieces except maybe headphones and hardware. And so how do you think about headphones and a hardware strategy?

Pass. Right? Competitor. I used to buy -- I'm a big music fan. I bought every headphone that exists. Today, those Apple headphones have changed everyone's life, right? The sound is amazing. There's very little difficult to get it, right? And so I'm not going into the hardware business. But what I would say is this is we built, again, we built this TAM, we built this moat, we built this flywheel that gives us the ability that I just added a team member, [ Josh Halberg ], who was a partner of mine at Roc Nation, has now joined to come run music with Roe Williams and adding him. He just came off of at his firm building a huge publishing business, having some of the biggest songs in the world. We're breaking the biggest talent in the world. If you think about every network, right, that has ever been created, AAA content wins, unique original programming. We broke Kid Laroi. We broke Juice WRLD, sadly. We broke Playboy Carti. We've just broke a beautiful young lady who's going to be one of the biggest stars in the world, Noa, who is Noa Kirel, who's out of Israel. Because we have that and the relationship we have, we get to see as a data company. We get to see the data from audio. We get to see the data from video. Think back and think of MTV and think if you watch when Michael Jackson first broke, right, you saw that dancing in MTV. It turned out he was a great singer too, but it didn't matter, right? When you see video and what the audience is looking for, it's game changing, right? We're positioned so well for that. And I just think that the next step will be publishing, record label. We're not going to own them on our own. We're going to partner with a major record label. We're going to partner with a major publishing company, that we're going to own a piece of it, very much like Jay-Z did with CAA. We want to be in the trenches of it. If we're going to break an artist. We want to be in the business of helping them to curate and make money. When you think about podcasting, right, is this magical thing. Who would ever believe that Joe Rogan in his pajamas could sell for $300 million off a microphone like you and I are sitting here, right? It just didn't happen, right? Of course, fortunate to put how it's turned on years ago. Now today, the production cost is so small and the opportunity is so big. I think we're so perfectly right in the center of the world right now of what is going to break in digital.

Great. So maybe switching gears a little bit towards financial performance. You mentioned earlier, raising guidance. Maybe just recap for folks. So you raised guidance about a week ago, 1.5 weeks ago, congratulations, obviously. And where -- so I guess what sort of drove the change in outlook for you? And standing here in May, how do you think we see that play out over the course of the next year?

Great question. I think this management team has shown its resiliency, right? Our long-term belief in what we're building. And as you look at these numbers, right, we were $38 million going into COVID. I bought a live business, right? It wasn't exactly the most timely thing I've done in my career. So you learn. I bought it in February of 2020 and in March, the world shut down for 2 years, right? Somehow, we grew from $38 million to $112 million plus that we just finished on March 31, right? So $125 million to $140 million is really not a gigantic growth, right? What we've said is we want to be conservative. We want to be prudent right now. We want to make sure that we focus on the bottom line. right? And that doesn't include any acquisitions. I've done 6. There's no reason to say that we can't get another one in. You know, Craig, we got an acquisition done at PodcastOne. Maybe my top 2 or 3 acquisitions in 30 years, right? Really unique opportunity. I think there's more opportunities for it, and the price is going to come down. So we're going to position ourselves for growth. We're going to focus on that bottom line, and then we're going to keep looking at opportunities to expand that.

Great. And bottom line, obviously, a much more prominent topic today among investors than it was 3, 6 months ago. I know you've implemented a handful of cost savings programs on your end. Maybe talk through how you're thinking about that? Does that impact how you think about growth in the business?

I mean what I would say is 2000, 2008 and a few times in between I got a good punch in the nose, right? And you learn as you get a little bit older, you get a little bit smarter about this, right? We were already in that process, started to do before the temperature changed of Wall Street valuations, right? We already knew it was going there. But really, the truth is that when you hit $100 million and you have $100 million of almost guaranteed recurring revenues, you actually understand your margins. You understand what the team looks like. So we took $20 million of cost out of the business, right? And we now built the business. We have now positioned the business to $5 million to $10 million of EBITDA and $125 million to $140 million bottom line. In the following year, which we haven't put any numbers out, obviously, we got to be focused on a lot higher than that. So the temperature has changed. I don't think it's going back very quickly. I think all of us have to focus on bottom line numbers. When I got that punch in the face in iWon, I had a $2.4 billion valuation at the IPO at Goldman Sachs. And 3 days later, you didn't know what it was valued at. We were fortunate enough. We focused all that traffic, just like this, and we focused it on bottom line numbers, and we delivered $46 million EBITDA. Same thing in Digital Turbine, went through the same exact experience in 2008, and we came out of it with again, almost $50 million in EBITDA. That's where we're going. That's where our focus is, and we understand the temperature. And this is a team that is built around profits. We've all built and sold businesses previously, taking them public, we're going to focus the same energy now.

Great. And you recently announced a share repurchase program. Maybe you can just talk to us a little bit how you're thinking about capital allocation strategy, share repurchase.

So we did our IPO at 4, right? We did our next round with Universal Music at foreign change and other partners, and then we did our debt piece convertible at 4.5. Our stock traded 100 million shares last March. There was a lot of exits. A lot of people made a lot of money at it. I'm proud of it. I'm excited about it, managed about it. We're now trading at 1/10 of that, right? Trading at 1/10, it just seems prudent and the right time for us to show our faith. Personally, I bought a lot of stock recently. I've invested over $18.5 million personally into the company. I'll continue to buy every time the window opens. As soon as the buyback is done, right? And we announced our year-end in our first quarter, right, June, towards the end of June, right, same thing here is we just thought it was the right time and it's the right thing to do, our shareholders do, stop buying back stock. So we expanded that buyback to 2 million shares, starting with $1 million worth of buying immediately.

Got it. And maybe dovetailing off of that, one of the other questions here from the audience. Maybe you could just talk a little bit about your position on debt within the business. How do you think about increasing debt, paying off debt? And how does the share repurchase program fit into all of that?

Yes. Great question. So we announced going back a while ago, we took out about $27 million of payables in debt that we renegotiated and cleaned up and strengthened the balance sheet. I think you're going to see more of that coming, right? So this is the opportunity for all of us, right, to right size your business, right, your balance sheet across the board. We have a small amount of debt. We really have one debt holder other than myself, right? I'm about $6 million of debt, convertible at $3, well above the market. There's one piece of debt with a dear friend of mine. [indiscernible] at $15 million convertible at 4.5. And we're going to have to work with him to make sure that it's a proper win for all of us. He's one big with me for many years. He's been a partner for over 20 years. And if not, it's a tiny amount of debt for a $100 million business. It's really the only senior debt that we have is that $15 million.

Got it. So sitting here, obviously, a lot of growth vectors focus on profitability. How do you think investors should think about measuring success in the business?

Yes. So I think the metrics have been pretty clear. They haven't really changed. The only thing we change is subscription, the word subscription to membership now that we have a robust enough amount of content and experiences to be able to deliver that membership program. But look at our subscriptions, our membership program and how it's growing. I look at the data and traffic that is coming right. We just passed [ Barstool ] and CNN as the #7 largest traffic to audience, right, in podcasting, probably everyone saw yesterday, right? Even in this market, podcasting is growing so fast that Sirius just bought Conan company at 15x revenues. So we look at those metrics, traffic, audience, number of creators on our platform, how many times those creators are hitting their social media and number of B2B partners and how they're delivering for us. And I think those are the best metrics to watching it and the most exciting to see how big our community grows and how fast it grows.

Great. And maybe just one last one to wrap up here. Actually, one more from the audience. Just an update -- any update on Ultimate Social Boxing that you want to share?

Yes. So this is the fun one, right? This was $17 million in revenues and millions of dollars of profit, and we had no risk in it, right? I didn't own the IP. I was there as the producer and you'll hear this in festivals as well. I articulate a little bit of it. We were the producer, the sponsor, we brought in all the money right? And so that was a great generator. What I just announced is a partnership with a gentleman named Ben Silverman. Ben, one of the great producers in the world, right? His company Propagate, at the office, a little show probably everyone heard of, right? They're also one of the top in creating reality TV. We've just announced a partnership with them, and we are just about to go out with a programming that if you think of Ultimate Fighter, right? Ultimate Fighter became -- UFC was struggling, almost going out of business. And then all of a sudden, UFC became this $6 billion asset, right? So we see the same thing here except the difference is social media stars have massive audiences they want. I don't mean they all have to have 10 million followers. They can have 200,000, 300,000. When Ultimate Fighter was done, UFC started. There were kids in the garage that had a couple of hundred people that knew who they were, right? We start off with a massive audience. So that reality TV show, we're going to put kids in a house, right? They're going to be competing Fight Club in the bottom. There's going to be a boxing ring in the basement of the garage, right, where they're fighting. And I think it's going to be really exciting, and that is going to lead to ultimate social boxing, which is going to be our Boxing League that will be around social media. But again, -- it will be highlighted by having like we did with social clubs. We'll have some of the biggest musicians in the world participating in that crossover dribble between social media and music. Why do they do that? The social media stores are changing the world. The Rock, Mark Wahlberg, now recognize how big it is and they're building brands, Jake Paul, Logan Paul, right? They're building brands that are way bigger than just the boxing. It's about building a brand and brand recognition about the creator.

Awesome. Well, with that, I think we are officially out of time. So I want to thank you again for being here. Good to see you as always.

Great. Thank you as always. Pleasure. Thank you, everyone for attending.