Makhazen (MKHZN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to today's Agility Q2 2021 Earnings Call. My name is Lydia, and I'll be coordinating your call today. I'll now hand you over to your host, Rita Guindy from Arqaam Capital to begin. Rita, please go ahead when you're ready.

Good morning and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for joining us today. This is Rita Guindy, and on behalf of Arqaam Capital, I would like to welcome you to Agility's Q2 2021 results webcast. With me here today I have Mr. Ehab Aziz, Agility's Chief Financial Officer and Agility's Investor Relations team. Without further delay, I will now turn over the call to Soriana Borjas, Agility's Investor Relations Senior Manager.

Thank you, Rita. Welcome, everyone, to Agility's Second Quarter Earnings Webcast. With me today, we have Aziz, our Group CFO, who will be presenting to you Agility's performance and major developments that happened in this quarter. After the presentation, which you should have available on your screens, we will open the Q&A session. Please free to submit your questions through the chat box that you have on your screen, and we will make sure to address it during this call. In case we didn't have enough time to address all your questions, we will contact you directly and answer them. Before we begin, I want to draw your attention to the disclaimer available on the second page as this presentation may contain forward-looking statements. Such statements are subject to risks and uncertainties. Please take a moment to read this and then after I will hand it over to you, Ehab. Thank you. Ehab, over to you.

Welcome, everyone to our second quarter analyst presentation. This is the agenda that I will try to address today. First, we'll address the DSV transaction, which has been closed as we announced in the stock exchange on August 16. Then we'll walk you through the key highlights for Q2 and H1 of 2021. And then we'll give you a flavor of how we think about the company going forward and where the value of the company will be driven. So this is a very preliminary view, but I think it's a first step post-GIL transaction. And then we'll open the floor for the Q&A. So first is the update on the GIL DSV Panalpina transaction. As maybe you have read in the news, we have concluded the transaction on August 16. And the value -- the enterprise value for that transaction came at KWD 4.77 billion and equity value of about KWD 4.67 billion. That is about $500 million increase from the value we announced at signing, and that is a function of the increase in the stock price of DSV during that period. We have agreed to receive 19.3 million shares in exchange for 100% of GIL, which we have taken the -- majority of those shares have been registered in our name and we have -- basically under our control now except for a very small and insignificant jurisdictions and countries where the closing is yet to happen in the near future. So as a result of that transaction, we will report in Q3 a one-off gain, which is basically the difference between the carrying value of GIL as of the end of the closing date, which is August 16. And the difference with the stock price of DSV. As you know, we will receive our stake at about 8%. So the 8% will be treated as an investment and we will take the change in fair value as per IFRS 9. We haven't decided yet, but more than likely will take it to the equity. So we eliminate the volatility that goes through the P&L. So the first step is we will recognize about KWD 968 million, almost $3.2 billion as a one-off gain. So that will happen in Q3. That will be a recognized gain in the P&L. But then subsequent to that date, we will measure the change in fair value in DSV through the equity, not through the P&L. That's to be confirmed by the Board, but that's the direction we are working on. The other impact is that we will dispose GIL carrying value, which is roughly KWD 400 million with the fair value of ESB shares, which as of closing was KWD 1.4 billion, which means that the equity of -- the shareholders' equity and our balance sheet will be increased by almost a KWD 1 billion in Q3. So that's a summary of the transaction. Of course, it is imperative to highlight why this transaction is critically important for Agility shareholders. I think from a strategic perspective, we are not exiting the industry. We are respectively replacing our 100% stake in a smaller company, which is GIL in this case, with a minority stake in a much, much larger company. But we are still invested in the industry we have exposure to the logistics industry. However, we are not directly managing that. So we are joining one of the largest and best global logistics companies in the world, DSV, with a market capital of roughly $55 billion. They have shown a tremendous performance improvement and a significant growth story throughout the year is consistent year-over-year growth at all aspects. And definitely, DSV today is considered one of the best global players, and we will be the second largest shareholder in that company going forward. Furthermore, we have a Board seat, and it's 1 of 7 Board seats. And we are looking forward to work with the DSV management team and Board to take the company to the next level. Part of the deal is that we have agreed with DSV that we would explore further areas of cooperation and that would primarily be in ALP. So DSV is very large contract logistics operator in the world. And as you know, we have a significant industrial real estate sector that we still control 100% and there will be lots of opportunities going forward being explored between the two companies on industrial real estate and ALP in addition to the Shipa ecosystem, and that is the e-commerce and Shipa Freight, which is still part of Agility Group. So that's on the strategic value. I'm trying to summarize, of course, there are plenty of other aspects and angles, you can look at this deal from a strategic value. I'm trying to summarize the key points here. On the financial or economic value, definitely, this transaction is unlocking significant shareholder value. As I mentioned, there will be -- we recognized a onetime profit of $3.2 billion, which is quite significant profit for the shareholders. And we can see that the stock price has reflected some of that already. But definitely, we believe that was the right thing for the shareholders and it -- to unlock the value for the shareholders of such an asset. So not only the strategic aspect of selling GIL was needed, but also in terms of financial, I think we have done the right thing by moving our stake from 100% GIL on to a minority stake, and that resulted in the significant value creation for our shareholders of $3.2 billion. In addition, this might be a little bit confusing for those who do not follow DSV and understand how they return cash to the shareholders. DSV pays a very little dividend yield about -- it depends on the price, but about 0.3%, 0.4% dividend yields, but that's not the main channel to return capital to the shareholders. Historically, their main channel has been a share buyback program and they are very structured and very active and very systematic about that program. And if we participate in that program, and nothing prevents us from doing so while maintaining the same pro rata share, which is 8% in this case. Based on recent history and recent trends, we expect to get $200 million to $250 million of cash flow every year from that investment that will be either used to increase our dividends or will be used to reduce debt or reinvest in other areas. So we will have a cash flow of $200 million to $250 million. That's our pro rata share of the share buyback based on the historical trends, and that would be also a significant cash flow. I mean comparing that to the level of cash flows that we use to get free cash flow that we used to get from GIL, it is quite significant. Because as maybe we have mentioned before, the GIL size, scale did not allow a lot of cash flows in addition to the investment that we were making in working capital. So there was a limited free cash flow. The GIL was generating cash, operating cash flow. However, the free cash flow ability of the GIL was Limited. And it's nowhere near that kind of cash flow that we will based, of course, on the policy of DSV, which has been quite significant -- consistent over the past several years, would be around $200 million and it can go up to $250 million of cash flow every year. The third value of unlocking shareholder value. If you look at the history of DSV management, you realize they have run the company quite effectively and efficiently. They grew their market cap over the years consistently, and that went hand-in-hand with earnings. Over the last 10 years, they have been able to generate about 57%. We expect the management team to continue that trend. Of course, in the short term, things might be a little bit volatile. But long term, and we are a long-term investor, we have high confidence in the management ability to continue to create shareholder value to DSV shareholder, which we are now part of that shareholder. And we're actually the second largest shareholder in DSV. So we expect the value creation journey of DSV to continue. We don't see any sign of -- we see the management is quite pragmatic, effective, very good managers that we feel very comfortable, trusting them with GIL and trusting them with having significant stake of our company invested into their stock. So that, I think, summarizes both the strategic aspect of the transaction as well as the economic and the financial aspects of this transaction. Moving to the Q2 highlights. Just to be -- one note here that GIL in Q2 has been reported as per IFRS 5, which is basically a single line of profit. And accordingly, the revenues -- the net revenues that you see here are basically the continued operation, excluding GIL, and that's like-for-like compared to last year. So you can see that for the quarter, what we used to call infrastructure is up about 26% and net revenue is up about 24.6%, a significant year-over-year growth. Of course, we are coming from a low levels in 2020 because of the COVID situation, but also that gives us confidence that the recovery of all these entities have been quite significant. And also this quarter, Q2, has accelerated growth compared to Q1. Of course, the impact of COVID in Q2 was much more than Q1 in 2020, and that's an element, but also most of the entities have been growing at a faster rate, which gives us confidence that we are recovering from the COVID impact. And hopefully, we'll go back and exceed the 2029 (sic) [ 2019 ] levels of profitability. You can see EBIT is at KWD 29.6 million, net profit at KWD 38.6 million. That is -- big chunk of that is driven by GIL because we still consolidate GIL numbers until August 16. So the Q2 and part of Q3 would reflect the performance of GIL. But nonetheless, the non-GIL, which is a continued operation, as I will show in a later slide, has also grew at a double digit, later in the slide I'll show that. For the quarter, you can see all the main entities in infrastructure have been registering a decent year-over-year recovery and performance in terms of revenues. So all entities have a significant year-over-year growth, and we are confident that this will continue. And I think we'll come out from this crisis, as we mentioned at the beginning of the crisis a better and stronger company. For H1, you can see that the growth rate for the combined 2 quarters are lower than Q2. One factor of that is the lower base because of 2020 COVID impact is higher in Q2 than in Q1 of 2020, but still a decent year-over-year growth rates. Revenues, 15%; net revenues, 8%; and EBIT of about 40%; and net profit 215%. Now also, you noticed that the net revenue margin has expanded almost 55% and as I remind you, this is the non-GIL, which has a higher margin -- GP margin as well as net profit margin and EBIT margin than the GIL business. So it's the higher margin business. The split of net profit from the H1 between continued and discontinued operation. The continued operation registered 21% year-over-year improvement, again, driven by top line growth -- primarily topline growth. The discontinued operation, you can see the significant profitability enhancement with the GIL, and that is driven by the market conditions and the tight rate environment in freight forwarding. Of course, we might look at this and say that GIL now is contributing significantly and maybe we should have considered not selling or keeping it. I remind you that GIL was by industry standards top scale, the ability to generate free cash flow was limited, was a good company, a very well-run company. However, we are also not missing that level of growth because also DSV is registering, given its size and scale, a similar growth pattern and if not higher, given the scale of operation. So I think we are not missing -- the industry is doing extremely well. And we are continue to be part of the industry. However, in a different mean in a different way through our investment to DSV. So our exposure remains the same. In terms of balance sheet, you can see on the right side, there is asset held for sale, that the assets of GIL and there is liabilities associated with assets held for sale, that's the liabilities of GIL, both these categories will get eliminated in Q3 and will be replaced by the KWD 1.4 billion in investment in DSV. And that investment will increase our assets by almost KWD 1 billion -- actually more than KWD 1 billion -- and KWD 1.4 billion and the equity by about KWD 1 billion. So total equity should be around KWD 2.2 billion post transaction. We still -- our net debt has increased, and the slide shows where the CapEx has been spent. A big chunk of that is going to the investment program that we have been investing in over the past 5 years, mainly Reem Mall has consumed some of that, as you can see from this slide on the right. You can see that this orange -- bottom orange -- dark yellow bar is mainly investment and some of the investments that we make in like in our key stake that we acquired 2 years ago, et cetera. But in recent years, it has been mainly -- and Reem investment is coming to an end. So we expect the level of CapEx and the level of investment to normalize in 2022 and will not be at the same level as the last 5 years. So that's the flavor of Q2 and H1 numbers. I think I would like to share with you and it's a current state, it's more of a brainstorming and I'm trying to think through how the company would look like going forward? And I think it's a strategic question that we are working on and hopefully would announce to you and communicate to you more clearer picture about what we intend to do and how we invest, how we would invest the proceeds that we'll get from DSV and also the cash flow that will be generated internally from the other businesses. But I think the foundation point here is that Agility management, since privatization, has been keen to create shareholder value throughout the years. And if you look at the trend and you look at the performance, we have been able since privatization to almost create 65x the value of the company at the time of privatization with almost 28% for 24 years. So I think that's a key foundational element. And I think we work -- we have our ups and downs. We have our mistakes. We have our issues here and there, I think, like any other company. But I think when you look -- when you step out and you look at the big picture, you realize that I think the management has created significant value and significant wealth to the shareholders. And I think we will continue to have that focus in mind, and that's actually what govern our behavior and what governs our investment philosophy. Sometimes we take risks. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But I think overall, 28% IRR for 24 years is significant track record. So we feel satisfied about that. Furthermore, since 2011, when the company -- when we lost all the military business and the company really shrunk to a level that was almost many people believe that it will be bankrupt or will disappear somehow. I think we actually did exactly the opposite, and we have been able to grow the value for the shareholders 5x over that period from 2011 until today, which is about the value creation of $7 billion and 25% IRR over that period. So that, I think, is a critical -- that's what drives us. That's what drive and governing our way of thinking, how we value opportunities. And that doesn't mean we don't make, again, mistakes. We don't do things -- we don't take maybe some risks maybe we should not have taken. But I think if we stay stagnant and we don't do nothing, we would not have been able to create that much value for the shareholders. And I think overall, it is satisfactory adjusting for all the risks and mistakes we have made. So going forward, we believe that the company -- you should be looking at the company, and we are looking at the company as two main pillars. One pillar is the strategic controlled investments, which what we used to call in the past, Infrastructure. And these are operating entities that are fully consolidated and the earning power of those entities will be reflected in the P&L. So that would be part of the company, one pillar of the company. The other part will be strategic, but noncontrolled investments. DSV is the largest among that group. Reem Mall is another example. Our stake in GWC is another example. [indiscernible] is here. Tech investment is here. And I think it's quite important to understand that the impact on the P&L of that group of the strategic uncontrolled investment will not be reflected in the P&L. So the way you should look at it and the way we are looking at it from a value creation perspective is what is the fair value of those investments and how much cash flow we are getting from these entities? So going forward, using the earnings power only and the EPS or EBITDA, EV to EBITDA multiple is not going to be enough. It will not be appropriate to use as a significant part of the company now is in the strategic noncontrolled investment. So I think that's -- internally now, we are processing that. So we look at the company, we manage each group. Of course, it requires a different skill set and different abilities and different way of management. And I think the value creation of these different groups will be a little bit different than in the past. So I think it's worth clarifying that and highlighting that. Now this is just a diagram that shows what I just talked about. So the strategic control businesses before COVID the EBIT, which is the proxy of the earning power on a run rate basis, is about $345 million. So that -- you would see that in the P&L. Now on the strategic and uncontrolled businesses, the fair value of those investments, and sometimes you use the fair value sometimes, which is, in this case, DSV is a public list. So it's very easy to find out that. NREC is publicly listed. GWC is a public listed. Reem Mall is not, so we adjust we take some assumptions -- either assumptions or we use the carrying value in the book. So around KWD 1.6 billion of value is in that strategic noncontrolled businesses. And then we have kept the grade, same pillar, which is the future investments, which we don't know yet how this would look like. But I think we are working diligently to define that and identify what other sectors opportunities that would help us take the company to the next level. Now it was one thing to grow the company from $400 million in 1997 to $7 billion in 2021. It's a different task to take the company from $7 billion to $20 billion going forward. And it requires a certain magnitude of investment, certain way of managing things, certain sectors, certain geographies. And I think we are working diligently to define that and identify what would be the next investment, which is now in gray area. This is my final slide and it's to summarize these 2 segments, the strategic controlled entities, the strategic and the strategic noncontrolled entities. You can see that the controlled entities have shown year-over-year constant growth and we showed that 2019. We showed that slide actually in Q1, but I think it's important to reiterate the message. And we allocate also what we believe the debt that belongs to this group, which is about KWD 86 million out of the total debt that we have. So again, earning power, almost KWD 460 million -- if you look at 2019, I'm using 2019 as a proxy of the run rate KWD 460 million of revenues, KWD 260 million of net revenue, which is the 50%, 55%. High EBIT margin at 22%. And if you compare that to the GIL, including the GIL margin, you realized that the GIL, given its low margin, was dragging our margins. Now the margins will be much higher and then a net debt of [indiscernible]. Looking at the right side of this slide, you can see the KWD 1.6 billion that includes all the investments that we have listed in the previous slide. And the debt that we believe is allocated to this side is about KWD 167 million. That gives us a net value of KWD 1.6 billion of net asset value. If you divide that by the current outstanding number of shares, that gives us about FIL 769 per share. So FIL 769 per share of the company's value today is driven by the right side and then you need to add on the top, the net equity value of the other business based on whichever methodology used to value that the left side of the business, the strategic one. So I think -- that's how we -- at least at this point of time, we are looking at the segment of the company and how we will process that. As I mentioned, the intention is to use fair value method as per IFRS 9 to value DSV and take any change in values. If the stock price goes up, then change in value goes to the equity. So we eliminate the noise that the stock price movement every quarter will generate on the P&L. And if it goes down, it also goes to the equity. So you should look at it as a net asset value rather than from a P&L perspective. I think that's my last slide. With that, I think we need to go to the Q&A. I'll try to address as many questions as I can.

[Operator Instructions] It looks like we have no questions currently.

Good. I hope it's not like a glitch in the system. But if there are no questions, then I think we can conclude.

I think there are some messages from participants coming through. So maybe we'll leave it a couple of moments just for people to type their messages.

So there is one question, which is should we expect higher dividends in coming years using flows from DSV share buyback? I think the answer is potentially, yes. We will have -- I mean, if things -- if the past is an indicator of how things will go in the future, we will be receiving $200 million to $250 million. And we will have to use that cash, as I said, either to pay dividends, higher dividends, or reinvest it in the business. So I think at the time, we will decide. But potentially dividends will increase if there is no use of that money into reasonable business opportunities. So I can't give you -- because that's a Board decision, and we would have to assess it at the time. But what I can tell you is that now we are getting more cash flow from DSV than we used to get from GIL. So potentially, the dividends should be factored as one of the uses of those funds. So Tristar, I think now the IPO is behind us. We still believe that the company is doing great. We are still focusing on organic and inorganic growth. So the focus has shifted to growing the company from -- with the current shareholder structure. We are still -- we remain open to other maybe listing or maybe other ventures that we can do. And I think as and when these opportunities will present themselves, we will assess and do what is right for the shareholders. I think the GIL transaction has shown that we are quite pragmatic when it comes to managing the portfolio of assets we have. And we have no -- I would say, we use -- I would say, a pragmatic approach and a systematic approach in looking at the -- how we can create value. And if it makes sense, we don't have any emotional attachment to the business so long it makes sense to our shareholders. So -- and we are following the same way this time. One more question about the performance outlook of Infra '21, '22, which includes severely affected business like NAS, cargo, UPAC developing very more. As I said, that business is about KWD 100 million of EBIT. We believe we will recover. Revenues are recovering quite strongly. We are a leaner and better company today. Each company of those are -- have taken some cost actions and becoming leaner and fitter. So I think we will quite recover from the COVID hit. And hopefully, 2020 -- end of 2021, 2022, unless there is another shot, I think we will be at or exceed the 2019 level. Can you talk more about the cost savings at the Infrastructure segment level? EBITDA margin in the past was 33%. Where could margins be once the cover situation normalizes? Okay. So I don't have an answer for the -- where the margins would be because we have run the group also they have been different entities and quite, I would say, segmented in their own silos, but there are a lot of activities, a lot of cost that was required to manage a large group at the corporate level. And as a result, there has been quite significant of costs being paid to full governance and otherwise to manage a group of that size. Now with the GIL being sold and the company structure is being simplified as a result of that, I don't necessarily see that we will have the same level of cost and the same level of structure. And we are in the process of really looking at that and assessing what should be kept, what should be done in the same way and what should not be done in the same way and how we can change that. So hopefully, by the end of the year, we'll have a better view on the run rate, including the cost optimization and including the synergy of the deal going forward. What is the progress on Reem Mall construction and preleasing so far, what level of granted rates should we expect there? As you know, we are -- today, we are -- our investment in Reem is through a convertible debt. So we have a convertible debt in Reem Mall. And part of the deal is that if the performance reaches a certain level, which is attractive to us, we will convert and get -- we consolidate the asset. Now in terms of construction. I think construction is well in progress. I think by the end of the year, we should have -- I think the target date is Q1, maximum Q2 next year, the opening. Construction is progressing well, and we should deliver it from a construction handover perspective, this year, the project should be delivered within the next few months. So I think we are at the end of a very difficult project due to the market conditions, but we are still very optimistic about the asset. And hopefully, by the time the asset is online, the COVID restrictions are lifted and people are willing and able to go outside, spend money and enjoy being in one of the best and largest modes in Abu Dhabi with quite good entertainment aspects to it. Leasing is -- I don't have the latest figure, but I think we have been signing several leases over the past several months. And I think we should be in a reasonable shape. I don't think we'll be 100% or 80% at the time of opening, which is in Q1 or latest by Q2 next year. But I think it will be decent enough to open and operate the model. Remind you that the Mall is over 2.5 floors, so it's not one floor. So managing that is in a certain way better, better from occupancy and from usability perspective. So hopefully, the overall experience will be good for consumers. We hope the tenants will do well, and we are hoping that at the time the Mall is open, COVID is behind us, and that becomes like a catalyst for that asset. But I can't -- I don't like -- it is a very challenging asset, and it's a very challenging market environment that we are operating in, but we are still somehow optimistic about it. Details on Shipa's performance and which segment you included? So it's -- Shipa today is relatively small to the size of the group. The profitability of Shipa is not significant compared to the KWD 100 million. So it's part of our operating assets [Technical Difficulty]

Ladies and gentlemen, please hold the line whilst we reconnect Ehab. Thank you for your patience, ladies and gentlemen. We now have Ehab back on the line.

Sorry for the technical glitch. So I was, I think, talking about Shipa. And as I said, in terms of profitability, it's still not there because of the size of the group and also the size of Shipa. However, in terms of capability and future potential and growth rates on the top line, it has been like growing at a high-digit top line. That's in e-commerce as well as in Shipa Freight. Now with the association with the DSV, the Shipa companies have a different, I would say, abilities and different potential. And that's the thing that we are currently -- actively exploring with DSV. And I believe that, that would be a quite decent business in the future. So I hope I answered my question -- your question around profitability. It's reported in the P&L, but it's small and it does -- given the KWD 100 million of profitability of EBIT. Shipa doesn't contribute a lot to that. However, in the future, we believe it will be a significant contributor to our profitability. So there is -- I addressed the Reem Mall question. Iraq Telecom investment realizations. I mean, I think we have been as transparent as possible in our financials and our -- almost every quarter, there is an update on the status of this. Currently, we have claims of about $600 million on the Iraqi shareholders, and it's a legal battle. And we believe we have a very good chance of recovering some or all of our money, but I cannot give you any certainty because, as you know, this is a legal proceeding and any outcome might happen. We believe that things -- we have been mistreated as in Iraq. And I think we will do everything possible, everything in our power to recover what is right for us. So today, we cannot assess how much will be realized, and that's why there is a qualification in the report about that investment. But I think you can make your own judgment. You can take 100% of it and take it out from our equity. Because end of the day, we don't get any earnings from it. It's a balance sheet item, so you can write it off from the equity post deal, we would have about KWD 2.2 billion of equity. So even if you write off the entire investment that I think is currently KWD 140 million. So it's still maybe 5%, 6% of the total equity of the company. So it is significant that we are doing everything to fight it from an absolute perspective. But relative to our total equity, it would be somehow insignificant given the size of our equity today on our asset base. How much warehousing capacity is ALP adding this year and in the next few years and in which market? What is the earmark CapEx for this? I think we will communicate that in details probably by year-end. But I can tell you that we are -- by next year, the 400,000 square meter build up capacity that we have in Saudi by the end of next year should be done. I think currently, we are at 250,000. So we will add probably 100,000, 150,000 square meters in Saudi. We are looking to buy more land in Saudi in different cities. So we will expand the business quite significant in Saudi. We are in four countries now in Africa: Cote d'Ivoire, Mozambique, Ghana and Nigeria. We are also looking at Kenya, and we are in discussion to acquire land there. So I think that's one of the businesses that we will continue to work and expand our portfolio business there. India also is another we are activating. We had a land bank that we acquired in 2006 and '07 and '08. Now this land -- we built a few facilities on it, but now the market is quite booming, the industrials market in India, and we are activating the land bank and we are building on it and there are quite a few opportunities. Now the other upside that we have in that sector is that now with DSV in place, I think we have good discussions on potential opportunities in different geographies where we can help and where can DSV benefit from our capability. And also it's a mutual benefit for both organizations. So that could be quite significant. DSV is a large Contract Logistics operator, and it's a great operator. So the risk and the size of the business, the scale of the business can be quite significant. And the risk also is quite low given the credit standing of DSV. So that's also another area of potential growth on the ALP. The impact of DSV deal on the Agility debt structure will any debt move to DSV? There is some of the debt that moved already to DSV as part of the deal. And that's part of -- I mean, if you look at the difference between the enterprise value of $4.77 billion and the equity value of $4.67 billion, that's basically the working capital -- sorry, the cash and the net debt adjustment that took place in -- as part of the GIL transaction. So we don't -- the current debt as presented in the balance sheet is entirely our debt. And now we believe that we have a stronger balance sheet, and we are working now to reorganize our financing structure and our balance sheet in the light of the DSV shares that we have because that can give us a lot of ability to leverage some of that. The cash flow that will come from DSV can also be used, but we believe we are at a comfortable level today of debt. And as I said, most of -- a big chunk of CapEx went to Reem Mall over the past several years, and that's one of the main reasons why our net debt has increased over the years. And we expect that to finish in terms of financing by Q2 next year. So the debt burden should start going down from there, unless we find interesting opportunity, organic or inorganic. But I think we have kept that at a reasonable level, and we have always communicated at early-on maybe 5 years ago, that we expect that we moved from a net cash to net debt position, which has been the case. But with that, we are still at a very reasonable debt levels. So we also remind you that we have -- we can raise money through different means. We have treasury shares that we can release through different means in the market and risk cash if need be. So we feel quite comfortable. We have the shares from DSV that we can lever up and reorganize things a little bit differently. So we don't see any issues with the current level of that. Actually, the DSV gives us a lot more flexibility to manage our debt. I think that was the last question. If there are any other questions, I think that concludes our call today. Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call. Thank you for joining. You may now disconnect your lines.