M&T Bank Corporation (MTB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

This is Jason Goldberg, and I cover the U.S. large-cap bank stocks here at Barclays, and this is our 19th Annual Global Financial Services Conference. Next up, we're very pleased to have M&T Bank. From the company sitting in the front row, we have Rene Jones, Chairman and CEO; and Darren King, Chief Financial Officer. Good morning, gentlemen.

Good morning, Jason. Thanks for having us.

Rene, let me start with you. Obviously, the past 1.5 years for the banking industry has been quite unique. There's been some rebound in 2021, although M&T stock has kind of been pressured this year, notwithstanding the accretive acquisition announcement of PBCT. In previous downturns, M&T has prospered, while the competition has pulled back. What do you think is different about M&T's approach to banking through this past downturn? And are there future changes you think you need to make?

Yes. Thanks for the question. I don't think there's anything fundamentally different about our operating model as you think about it going through a difficult economic cycle. There are 2 outcomes over many, many, many years that have happened in the challenging economic cycle: one, we expand our footprint; and two, we tend to be in an environment where there's a need for our services -- banking services, which means credit spreads are wider, right? And we have a great opportunity around taking share in terms of loan production and so forth. And so if you think about it, the first thing has sort of happened, right? We've entered into an agreement to expand. It's our largest expansion yet and it's at a fair price. So that part is very much the same. I think what's really different is if you think about it today, I like to say sort of lightheartedly that the government sort of this time stepped in and did our job as a bank, and we're still sitting with $2 billion of cash, right, on household balance sheets. And that just essentially means that in the immediate term, there's not a huge demand for growth in the balance sheet. And the spreads are actually, as you know, really thin, almost like everything is perfect, which is just the nature of what we've seen here. But you saw and we talked about a little bit in our investor deck that the team just put out that really, when you look at that, we've sort of sitting here with a tremendous amount of dry powder in terms of capital that we can use. We have the lowest ratio of securities because we've just been really conservative on that side, we -- and just a fair amount of wherewithal even in terms of having an allowance relative to before the crisis that's above average. So I think we're pretty much intact. I think there's going to be tremendous opportunity for us going forward. And part of that is that we believe that the $2 trillion of household savings is going to take some time to trickle out and that we're going to have a stronger economic recovery and a longer economic recovery than before. So I think it just hasn't fully played out.

Got it. And just a reminder, for those listening in on the top right-hand corner of your screen, you see a bunch of buttons, you wanted to ask a question, simply click on that to ask the question. And then secondly, there's a button called survey, please respond to the survey questions listed. Rene, we'll unpack some of that what you just said in a moment, but I wanted to ask you some [ executive ] questions on this. On the April earnings call, you mentioned that you were thinking -- rethinking your CRE exposure, which has been a long-standing kind of hallmark of M&T. Maybe just kind of expand upon that.

Yes. So it's a core strength. It will remain a core strength in terms of our capability and our ability to underwrite and our ability to solve problems for commercial real estate clients. But having said that, we've also been super-focused on being capital efficient. And so when you look at what happened in some of the more recent stress tests and the idea that you have to assume 16% losses through 9 quarters, really, we believe, is a very fundamental change. We don't believe that that's a onetime thing and then you can just let it go by. It sort of sets precedent for how much capital is needed to be held. And so what we're doing is we're taking our expertise and we're finding ways to meet our clients' needs going forward, but not solely having to use the balance sheet. And I think it's interesting. I think it ends up for us becoming an economic opportunity because the way I would say it really simply is that there probably over a fairly long period of time has been more demand for our services around real estate than our balance sheet can really handle, right? And so how do we begin to grow PPNR through that business segment at a faster rate than we're growing it now, but not necessarily just rely on our balance sheet, right? So I think it's sort of a modernization of our capabilities in that space. Ultimately, it will allow us to carry lower capital.

Interesting. And then for those listening in, I should highlight, we're not going through it today, but M&T last night did post a slide deck to its website, kind of an update slide deck. And I would say a bit more offensive than typical. I guess one of the slides that jumped out to me was Slide 27, I think with title dry powder or something like that. And I think it kind of speaks to some of the upside that M&T sees, Rene, but maybe that the market doesn't currently appreciate. I mean maybe you could just share your thoughts around some of that.

Yes. Well, I'll keep it light. I mean we all grew up working for Bob Wilmers, who is the ultimate owner of -- in the banking industry. And so we don't worry about the stock price that much. At the end of the day, I kind of feel like Buffett, it's a chance for us to own more of the stock at great prices. And over time, it will take care of itself. And I think what you see in the deck that team put together is that you see this long-term history of our results, and you see how we've been able to achieve it through different periods. And I think the message really is when you kind of look at the last 4 years, I mean, it's almost identical with the exception of the fact that we're getting the results we're getting with above-average equity, doesn't happen typically in the history of M&T with above-average cash, lower securities, right? So I think it, sort of, is more a reflection of sort of describing the current environment and what's happened in this economic cycle with all the government support. And that's what sort of makes it different. It's not really that we've changed our operating model. So I think that's really the message. But we always joke over -- for my case, over 30 years, when we go to these events, people always say, well, I love your stock and I love your performance, but obviously, we never get a chance to buy it because it's not reasonably priced, well, here you go. But for the first time in my history, in my time here, it's reasonably priced.

Got it. Well said. Maybe you could update us on People's United merger. Still waiting on Fed approval. There's been some headlines. Maybe just kind of update what you're hearing, thinking and seeing.

Yes. We're still waiting for regulatory approval, as you said. Our intention was to try to get a deal closed in the fourth quarter and to do that as soon as possible within the quarter. So we're still focused on that. I'd say a couple of things, integration, planning and work has gone really well. As you know, our goal was to close fourth quarter, convert sometime in the first quarter. And I'd say we're on track. I continue to believe sort of the most notable thing that I can tell you that I've learned since the announcement is how narrow the gap is between the cultures and the philosophies of the 2 banks. So of course, by now, we've gotten a chance to meet everybody who's on the ground, whether it be in Bridgeport or Burlington or Maine, New Hampshire or Massachusetts. And we're sort of built from the same mold, which I think is going to take the cultural integration and actually narrow that down relative to the past acquisitions we've done. So I'm really excited about it because I think there's a lot of opportunity to sort of hit the ground running there.

All right. I guess from announcement to Fed approval, it's taken longer than we've seen from PNC-BBVA USA, Huntington-TCF. And I realize every acquisition has its own texture to it. But I guess, any concerns about the process?

No. I mean if you just step back, I mean you think about -- we said on the announcement that we would -- our target was the fourth quarter. And really, what we did is we looked at all those precedent transactions and just added a little bit more time. So I don't know. I don't really exactly know. None of us really know how the whole Fed process works, but we're sort of where we expect it to be at this point.

Got it. And then there's been some headlines from the state of Connecticut around headcount, around -- I think you're now closing less supermarket branches than initially expected. And I know there's always kind of headlines around these deals. But as we think about those in relation to the kind of the merger math and the cost savings, is there kind of any change in kind of the math surrounding the deals as a result of some of the stuff that we've read about?

No. No, nothing. Everything is very much the same. I think obviously, there was a big reaction to the warrant notice that we put out. Oftentimes banks, they wait until they get approval to put those notices out. We just felt that it made much more sense for the teams of people, both who will be sticking around and those who will be moving on to really understand upfront early what the situation was. So we went ahead and did that. Having said that, I have to tell you that what the representatives from Connecticut gave us a chance to do is to engage early, earlier than we typically do with community groups, with government officials to tell our story and to talk about how we bank and how it might be different from some of the things that People's has done over time. So when I look back at that piece in the summer that I don't know what you call it 4 weeks, it was really productive in a way because we introduced ourselves to lots of people about our way of banking.

Got it. And then maybe a bigger picture, just what are you hearing from customers after 18 months of pandemic protocols and virtual communications, I imagine people want to speak to their bankers about their business needs and thoughts as where the economy is headed.

Yes. Yes. A couple of things. They are confident but less certain about when they're going to be able to deploy their capital. Part of that, I think, stems from deep concerns about the supply chain issues. And the #1 issue no matter what industry it is, who we talk to, is the tight labor market and sort of trying to understand that tight labor market and finding resources. So it doesn't really matter what business you're in. A year ago, we were talking about that in restaurants. Today, it's across every single industry, the ability to find workers and there's a need to pay up for them. And we're not talking about people switching jobs within industries, now they're crossing over industries. So we see our clients having lots of wage pressure, but maybe more important than the wage pressure, it's just the regardless of the wage, they just can't find people to ramp up as much as they'd like to. So again, I think it follows the same theme, Jason, where we're going to see the savings that are out there produce a longer -- slower, but a longer economic recovery.

Got it. I definitely want to get to Darren on the financials, but I'm going to actually pose this question to you, based on what you said earlier. But M&T has kind of been clear, they're going to wait for the People's deal to get approved and closed before they do kind of an increase in terms of capital distribution. But based on what you said earlier in terms of the stock price being really attractive and that doesn't always happen, I guess, is there an opportunity to maybe start repurchasing shares sooner than you thought initially? Or just maybe just any updated thoughts on capital actions?

I don't know about sooner than we thought, but I mean, I would take those slides very literally. There's a fair amount of opportunity. And when you think back through the topics we just talked about, right, whether it be our current position of our balance sheet and our business mix today, there's a lot of room to do things, probably more capital than we have the ability to deploy in this environment where the savings is high. And then on top of that, as we think about our positioning around CRE, right, also, that produces even more opportunity. And Jason, over the years, I can pick a period. But generally speaking, including organic loan growth and acquisitions, we've only been able to use 35% of the capital that we produce through income. I don't see any difference. And so there's increasing need to get those cash flows to the shareholders.

Sooner the better. Maybe Darren, shift over to you. Just thinking back to the outlook you shared at the beginning of the year, maybe just update us in terms of what's changed, upside, downside surprises.

Sure. So probably the 2 biggest things that are different and in my eyes positive from where we were in January is the credit environment is stronger than we thought. We're not seeing the level of charge-offs that we might have been concerned about or worried about. So that's a positive for the economy. We're also seeing strength in the financial markets and that's helping drive trust income. And so both of those are bright lights. The offset or what goes along with that is some increase in expense. And you see some increase in expense associated with our incentive plans because our employees, our teams are driving better revenue growth, but also for our corporate incentive we accrue that based on a percentage of our net income. And so with net income being higher, our incentive accrual is up there. And then you see some increase in the other cost of operations, which is the professional services category, which is tied to some of the assets under management. And so you see those expenses tied with revenue and/or net income. And so we're seeing better net income, and that's why we're seeing some increase in expenses. Outside of that, the net interest income in dollars is tracking pretty close to where we expected it to be. We've got a little bit of a benefit that we didn't anticipate at the start of the year in PPP round 2. And in fact, we're starting to see some of that forgiveness come through this quarter. We, as I mentioned, on fee income, trust income is running a little bit better. Mortgage might be slightly down. And the only reason mortgage is slightly down as we've gone through some of those Ginnie Mae buyouts, and we've taken some loans and forbearance off the balance sheet and have been waiting for those to turn into reperformers and to get the gain on sale and they're still on our balance sheet with all the government programs on foreclosure restrictions. And so that's another part of the dry powder, so to speak, that, that will earn the interest income in the short term, but at some point, we'll turn those back into securities. And then we're starting to see, although it's pretty much in line with what we expected, some nice activity in the economy. We're seeing some of the fee income related to debit card, merchant and credit card interchange ticking along as we all see the improvements in the economy. So that's nice to see. In relation to loan growth, I think we talked about fairly flattish on C&I lending. That's generally true with the exception of the floor plan business, which has been well documented around the industry with what's going on with supply chains and inventories there and line utilization. Outside of that, in PPP, C&I loans are flat, and we are seeing some uptick in originations. CRE is fairly flat right now. There's just not a lot of activity happening and most of the actions in the consumer, and you can see it in the indirect business, whether it's in autos or RVs or boats. And so -- but that's pretty in line with what we thought. So just giving you an overview of some of the various components of the guide and where we stand. I guess I would say generally in line with our expectations and a couple of spots where there were some changes, but they're all linked.

No, makes sense. One of the big things you said on the July call that with net interest income will be close to the second quarter frame for both the third and the fourth quarters. Just maybe your comfort around that. And then just how do we start begin thinking about 2022 or how you're thinking about that as you kind of plan for next year?

Yes. So I think in aggregate for the second half, the NII that we gave, we're still pretty comfortable with. In there were some assumptions about the timing of PPP forgiveness. And as I mentioned a moment ago, we are seeing PPP loans forgiving a little bit quicker this quarter than we might have anticipated. So we'll probably see -- we've talked about the last 2 quarters being relatively equal in net interest income. We'll probably see that skew a little bit front-loaded in the third quarter and a little bit less in the fourth quarter. But other than that, we're pretty comfortable with what we had talked about and foresee that the second half of the year, the net interest income will be pretty much in line with what we thought. The one thing that Rene had talked a little bit about the amount of cash sitting in the economy and the stimulus programs and how long that might stick around and that it's likely to be a more robust long-term recovery. And so that's changed our thinking a little bit over the last 90 to 180 days about how long deposits might stick around and how to start deploying some of that cash. And so it won't make much of an impact this year. But as we roll into next year, we'll start to look at and we're starting to look at retaining a little bit more of the securities portfolio. So keeping that flattish, we'll expect to see this year. And as we look for ways to deploy that excess cash, we're starting to look at retaining some of the mortgage origination just given the yield that you get on those versus selling them and buying them in securities in the portfolio. So you'll start to see that happen in the third quarter and into the fourth quarter, which will set us up for 2022. So we'll have more thoughts for you on what 2022 might look like as we go through quarter end, and obviously, we'll give you the full outlook as we get to January.

Jason, you described that page in the investor deck has maybe more sales than normal. I think the intention is sort of, as Darren talked about it, if you think about what we're saying is over the -- I think about over the last 5 years, we've run down billions of dollars of residential mortgages from Hudson City, right? And we still have above-average loan growth over that period. So when you sit there and think about it today, when we talk about dry powder is we're getting the results we're getting, right, but not actually being as aggressive as our industry average in that space. And so the idea, for example, that Darren is talking about that we would have excess capital and we would be selling loans, it's just not the most optimal thing to do today, right, as you begin to shift that. And as you start to think about the deposits, when we look at our analysis, it's about 50% of our households who actually carry the cash to the higher balances. So it takes long. I mean as you know from your household, you can only go on so many trips, right? And so as it gets concentrated, it means it takes longer to spend. And so when we look at that, there's lots of things that we can do to be more economically optimal than we are today, right? So that's I think the way to look at it. You talked about share buybacks, yes, that's important. But just using the capital is really important as well.

And I guess the other part of the guide, Jason, for 2022 as we get there, we'll include the People's franchise and the People's balance sheet. And when we look at that and we think about some of the cash on our balance sheet, we see an opportunity to pay down some of the higher cost funding sources in the People's balance sheet. And so some of the excess cash will be used to change that overall cost of funding for the combined bank once we're together. So I'm not quite ready to come out with 2022 yet. But just to give you a sense of where we're thinking and how the balance sheet might change and what that might mean for net interest income as we go forward.

No, that's helpful. The other thing on the July earnings call and just I think there was some confusion around your kind of back half of the year expense outlook kind of excluding the merger. Maybe just walk us through kind of what you're thinking and then is that still the case?

Yes. No, happy to. And I remember as the question came in at the end of the call, trying to go back to the original guide, which I think obviously was lower than we were ending up. We think it's 3% to 5% expense growth, which is what we talked about earlier in the call. And really, the drivers there are the things that I had talked about. You're seeing upticks in revenue. We're seeing increase in commissions and incentive expense, whether it's in the mortgage business or the trust business. We are seeing some upticks in production in the commercial part of the bank. And then you see some increase in salaries and benefits from that as well as from the incentive that we're accruing for the executives and higher ranking folks within the bank based on the actual performance of the organization. I think we probably were -- seems maybe one of the more aggressive ones in reducing comp based on the bank performance in 2020, and you're seeing the opposite effect this year. So you get the math of being down 1 year and up the next, and that's leading to that 3% to 5%.

Got it. And just as a reminder, for those listening, in the top right-hand corner of your screen, feel free to click the ask-a-question button. I guess I mentioned Slide 27 jumped out to me, the dry powder slide. The other interesting slide to me was Slide 15, where you looked at your net charge-off ratio relative to your peer group back to even before when I started. And basically, in every period, you are typically above top quartile or second quartile, except kind of Q1 and Q2 with respect to charge-offs, we're kind of in the bottom quartile. So clearly, the pandemic has hit M&T harder than almost anyone else. In terms of charge-offs, we've seen criticized nonaccrual loans rising while their banks have peaked and already on the decline. And when I [indiscernible] losses, they're obviously on an absolute basis low. But just maybe kind of update us in terms of what you're seeing with respect to credit quality and some of the -- maybe address some of the concerns in the marketplace?

Sure. Yes. I think the last point you made about the absolute level of charge-offs is the most important one to keep in mind in the second quarter. I think we were in the teens in basis points of charge-offs, and that made us higher than the median. So I think I'm okay with 19 or 15 basis points of charge-offs against our long-term average of 35, especially in this economy. But that aside, when you look at our portfolio, obviously, we're focused pretty intently on what's in the portfolio, what's being challenged, what's in the criticized portfolio. And it's actually, if you look further on in the deck, and you go towards the back and you look at the breakdown of the criticized, which is actually on Slide 41, it starts to show a little bit about where we're focused. And so when you look at the criticized, it's primarily commercial loans that are in criticized, you'll see some mortgages, but those would be the Ginnie Maes that are in there. And so we don't really spend as much time focused on those. And within the commercial portfolio, it's really CRE. And so we start to look at where there aren't problems. C&I is performing really well. And to the points Rene made about how organizations are thinking about growing and deploying the cash, they've managed through the pandemic very well. Within CRE, you can see where most of the criticized sits, it's predominantly in the hotel portfolio, a little bit in retail, a little bit in the health care space, but the other parts of the portfolio, the criticized is really a small percentage of the overall. And within hotel, so we spend a lot of time looking at hotel and making sure that we feel comfortable that we're well protected and that we're working with our borrowers to keep them in business because that's good for them, and obviously, it's good for us. But just to give a little flavor inside the hotel portfolio and that $3.1 billion of criticized, about 80%, slightly north of 80%, has some form of guarantee. So let me start with that. Within that portfolio, so if you take the percentage that doesn't have a guarantee, about 2/3 of those customers are cash flow positive or have enough in the interest reserve to cover their payments for the next 12 months. And so when we look at the rating of criticized, we don't look at those outside sources, we look at just the property by itself and its ability to sustain itself. But when we underwrite and when we think about the quality of the borrower, we think about those other outside sources. So that the nonguaranteed part is a smaller percentage of the portfolio that's in criticized and has adequate cash on hand. To go back to the guaranteed part, most of those borrowers have also capacity to pay. Most have greater than 6 months of interest in their reserve and their ability to pay about 1/3 are cash flow positive after debt service coverage, 1/3 have not just 6 months but 12 months in their interest reserve. And when we look at the loan to values with all of those portfolios, hotel, in particular, making sure that there aren't going to be losses, we spend a lot of time looking at the values of the properties, right? So first, I mentioned a lot about the cash flow that exists and the quality of the guarantor and the strength of the guarantor is there. And our last resort, obviously, would be to rely on the collateral. And when we look at the hotel properties, just about 85% of the hotels have had a new appraisal either this year or towards the end of 2020, and so they're pretty up to date. When we look at the LTV, the average LTV in the hotel book is about 59%. And the bulk of the portfolio is -- has an LTV of less than 80%. And so very strong values.

Post the appraisal.

Post the appraisal, yes. And so we're spending a lot of time, obviously, watching because we're concerned, and it has a lot of focus. Rest assured, it has a tremendous amount of focus inside as much as it has outside. And that's where we've really been focused on making sure that we're able to help these clients through this downturn. And really, the hotel has been the hardest hit in the leisure hospitality sector within the criticized. When we look at the rest of it, there's some elevated challenges that they tend to be as much borrower specific as they are industry specific to the extent that hotel is.

Yes. I don't -- I just would add. I mean I think somewhere around 25 basis points of loss this year, which to me is surprising given the amount of real estate that we have. And I think we're just slightly below the average, right? So my sense is that the way these things work early in a cycle, you try to get to your properties and issues that are there very quickly, and you move fast to do that and charge them off. But over time, I really don't think very much has changed. We feel really very confident in our portfolio and our clients.

Got you. There are a few questions from the audience that I'm going to go to. First one is, still confused on Darren's expense guidance. When you talked about 3% to 5% expense growth, is that full year or first half versus second half?

The answer is that's second half '21 over second half '20.

Got it. And then another question was any comment on the recent downgrade by S&P? And then beyond the hotel portfolio in New York commercial real estate, are there any other areas of stress within the loan portfolio?

[indiscernible]

I mean no comment on S&P, it's sort of old news stuff, which is pretty typical for the rating agencies to take a look back.

Yes. Within the portfolio, as I mentioned before, hotel is the primary focus. When we look at New York City, really within New York City, things have been coming back to life within the city, hotels still struggle. Retail seems to be back a little bit. When I look at the updated appraisals, within New York City, also north of 70% within this first half of the year or late last year. So pretty up-to-date. And the LTVs are still on average, less than 60. And so really strong there. The only other place where there's any action really is you see it again on that slide that I referenced before, a little bit in the health care sector with some of the assisted living and acute care, where there's been a bit of a slowdown in people replacing capacity in some of those properties. But when you look at long term, we don't foresee that the population is going to stop aging. And so it's just a timing thing.

Yes. And the assisted living space just see people are moving slower, right? They're more reluctant to make that change. They're staying in their homes longer. We actually -- I think we wrote about it 2 letters ago.

Yes.

And that's been exacerbated by the pandemic.

Makes sense. And then another one is Darren touched on it, but could you maybe expand upon opportunities for the combined balance sheets of M&T and People's? M&T is kind of a much underutilized balance sheet. When you put the 2 companies together, is there a chance that the new net interest income run rate is higher than people anticipate?

I guess we're going through looking at the 2 balance sheets and given the conversation we had about how our thought process has changed a little bit in the last 90 to 180 days about how we might use the combined balance sheet, clearly, we see some opportunities to reprice some high-cost funding and use the cash and put the cash to work there. When we look at the securities portfolio at People's, it's got a little bit different mix and a little bit different duration than ours. And so we want to look at the 2 of those together as we think about how we might carry securities on a go-forward basis. They've obviously been originated and retained residential mortgage place, and we'll move a little bit in that direction. So we'll be looking at how large a position we want in residential mortgages on the whole balance sheet, thinking about what that does to our asset sensitivity. And then we'll be looking at the commercial portfolio in the context of Rene's comments earlier about how we think about commercial real estate and how we can best bring not just our balance sheet but a broader set of capabilities to those commercial real estate customers, not just obviously in the People's franchise, but in ours. And then outside of that, to me, it's really how quickly we can continue to integrate the cultures and take advantage of the upside that we see. I think we mentioned it on the announcement that we see a tremendous amount of upside in the small business space within the People's franchise. We see opportunities within our wealth and private banking within that franchise. And conversely, we see an opportunity to bring some of the People's products into M&T footprint, most notably the commercial equipment leasing part of their franchise. So how quickly can we get integrated and get focused externally rather than internally and take advantage of those upsides and all the cash that we have on our balance sheet because we clearly rather deploy that to customers than to securities.

I think the latter part of what Darren talked about is probably the most powerful. If I go back to it, yes, we're going to pay down the debt. We're -- probably right now, People's is generating as much capital as we thought and we're generating more capital than we thought. So we're really confident there. But the real issue that we're finding is there are just ways in which we approach business banking that we think are untapped. There are ways in which we can use even our current suite of capabilities on real estate to make both it more -- the real estate and the loans they have more effective, efficient, but also to open up opportunities from their existing customer base that we didn't see probably when we were inking the agreement.

And I guess when I think of some of the previous M&T acquisitions, Allfirst, Keystone, Wilmington Trust, there's been a lot. They typically have been kind of underperforming or troubled institutions. People's is actually a decent bank. Does that kind of change the way you kind of approach it?

I mean I think it's a gift in a way because, yes, it changes the way we approach it because there are a lot of people on the ground who understand their particular community. And so we've now met everybody, right? So I think where we all sit here, we kind of look at our banks as these big super regionals. But what we look at it internally is, have we met the people in Burlington, have we met the people in downtown Boston, have met the people in Hartford? And those teams are really strong and so the learning curve on adding our new capabilities, I think, is relatively short. And so in terms of getting up and running and generating organic growth, I'm excited about the ability to take share in that market. And there really isn't an M&T. I mean there's very large institutions there and very small institutions. So I think we're something somewhat unique, and that's just been reinforced. Jack and I talked about it for probably a year. And then -- but really as we look at it today, it's sort of everything we assumed is really true and more.

Perfect. I think that's a nice place to leave it. Rene, Darren and team, thank you so much for joining us today and look forward to speaking again in the near term.

Thanks, Jason.

Thanks, Jason.