M&T Bank Corporation (MTB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Headquartered in Buffalo, New York. M&T's operations are concentrated in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic states. They offer traditional banking services, trust, investment brokerage and mortgages. M&T has consistently had among the highest ROA -- the highest ROA, excuse me, among its peers. Joining me today is Daryl Bible, CFO, who joined M&T in 2023. Daryl is responsible for the overall financial management of the company. Daryl has over 3 decades of corporate finance and banking experience. And prior to joining M&T, he was CFO at Truist and its predecessor of BB&T. So thanks for joining us today.

Yes. Thanks, Susan. Happy to be here.

Great. So 2023, the understatement of the century here is 2023 has been a challenging environment for bank stocks. With the inverted yield curve, rapidly rising rates, deposit betas rising and some failures in March. So you've been in the industry for a long time. What have you learned about M&T and how the bank is managed and they've had pretty impressive results so far. So what's -- can you attribute that to?

Yes. No, thank you for the question. I would say it has been a challenging year. Obviously, loan growth is not robust, if there's growth [indiscernible]. And there's been actually a drop in deposits that hasn't happened for a long time before. So definitely headwinds from an industry perspective. I think when you look at M&T, M&T is a very conservatively run company. We're very long-term oriented. And when I look at really the events that happened this year, and I kind of -- we've been in around for a handful of downturns and all that. To me, it comes down to really 3 reasons why it happened. Diversification matters. And I think the M&T model actually was validated in the scenario because we're a diversified company, and we have 5 business lines with consumer, business banking, commercial wealth, our Corporate Trust business. So all that was really -- did well in that time frame. I think tangible common equity matters. And it matters when there's stress. It always has been. If you remember the great recession, everybody was doing the same thing that just happened in the spring time. And if you look at M&T, our tangible common equity is 7.8%. If you look at the decisions we made, we basically did not invest in the investment portfolio because we wanted to have the risk of the capital impact and all that. We're very long-term-oriented function. So I think that kind of plays through. The last one was really the industry and regulators really didn't model any differential between insured and uninsured deposits. And we always looked at operating and not operating. And when you layer that in, you get maybe some different answers out there. You look at the M&T model, we are really, really good at operating accounts, core deposits whether it's consumer, business banking and commercial, that's the first thing we go after, and we kind of build from that. Our Business Banking business, 87% of the deposits is basically operating accounts. And if you look at that business, it's a 4:1 ratio, 4x more deposits than loans that we have there. So we really had the great model to weather the stresses that really came about this past spring.

Okay. I hope that -- the percentage of insured deposits, I hope after this year, we never talk about that statistic again. That has nothing I ever worried about and now it's very hot. Just moving on to the income statement. A few themes I'd like to talk about a little bit more. With deposit betas rising so quickly with interest rates rising rapidly as well. It's been a big focus. When do you think that NII and margin will trough? And can you just sort of talk about the outlook for those 2 things next year?

Yes. So we're still in the midst of our planning process, but I'll give you, obviously, some points that we're looking at. For me, I think the hardest thing for this planning here is really modeling disintermediation, that's occurring in the industry. For us, it's the reduction of our demand deposits going into sweeps. We saw it moderate in the third quarter. We're expecting it to continue to moderate in the fourth quarter. But that -- obviously, when you lose something that you aren't paying interest on it also, you have to pay 5% interest on it. That has an impact on your net interest income there. So as that kind of moderates down, I think that would be a big key for net interest income. That's probably the largest component of impact on net interest income. You also have dissemination in the consumer book going into the CDs. I actually don't view that as a negative. It really comes down to the discipline that you have and how you price the balance sheet, and how you go to market both on the lending side and on the deposit side. As long as you're pricing those deposits under the funding curve, you're going to win over the long run with that scenario. If you look at it now, we're 12%, 13% funded of CDs versus total deposits. I would say if you look at back in history, we were maybe mid-20s, really depends on how long rates stay higher, but rates stay higher for longer, probably that's going to continue to have. You could have the DDA maybe stop switching as we kind of bottom out. But I think that could basically be an occurrence that happens. But you have to look at the other side of the balance sheet. Right now, our balance sheet on the lending side is 60% floating, 40% fixed. If you look at the consumer book, our Auto loans or Rec loans are repricing up 300 and 250 basis points higher of what's rolling off or what's rolling on that can help mitigate the repricing of the CD book. So I would kind of look for the switching of the DDA impact would probably be the single most important piece for that to stabilize.

So if the Fed -- their messaging is a little unclear, they paused obviously this time and then put a little bit of a hawkish point of view. So if they maybe raise one more time in December and then we're kind of flat for next year, how does that -- does that help at all? Does it -- or you said higher for longer, maybe isn't necessarily helpful?

In a high rate environment, banks can make a lot of money. It comes down to the discipline that how you price assets and your deposits. The disintermediation impact, I think, will have -- if you look at how much DDA we have as a percentage of deposits, we're at 33% of total deposits. But since we have brokered in our denominator, if you really back that out, that's 36%. If you look back historically, the DD, if you go back 20 years, was 25%. If you add Wilmington Trust to that because we have a lot of DDA from our corporate trust business there. If you add that in there, we're closer to 30% is our historical bottom. So there is risk that it can go maybe from 36% to 30% over time. Does it get down that low? I'm not sure. But that's probably the biggest driver that I would see from that impact. It's going to take a couple of quarters when the Fed is done raising rates before everything kind of gets balanced on the balance sheet. But if July was the last increase, maybe yes, maybe not. You probably see some stabilization as you get to middle half of next year potentially.

Okay. And then I've asked some other folks this. How much can you monitor sort of on -- how fine can you get on your monitoring of what we -- what people have moved. So if I have a DDA account, consumer and the commercial side, I've moved half of my deposits to money markets, to CDs or 75%. What I'm getting at is, as most people move their money, if you look at that analysis, have most people kind of move their money 50% of it, 75% when you look at that?

We monitor the balances daily as you would expect, and we do apply product codes. We know exactly how much is moving. I have a report that basically shows what our interest cost is on deposits. every single day of what that mix is. So we're monitoring it very closely from that perspective. I would say that the bulk of the repricing has probably occurred but higher for longer, we probably have some dribs and drabs of things would probably trickle in over time. For us, it's just -- we just need to continue to execute our model. We go to market getting operating accounts, growing operating accounts. That's probably the most important thing that we do. And we want to make sure that -- in my past, we always want to have an always-on scenario in that. We are going to market for loans, we are not on an RWA diet. So we're trying to grow loans with the exception of CRE. So we're trying to grow that, but we're also trying to get deposits at the same time. And we want to make sure that we price our deposits and cognizant of where our marginal funding cost is, and we price at a spread underneath that funding cost. That discipline of how we manage banks 10, 15, 20 years ago, I think, has to play into how we manage in a higher rate environment.

Yes. Okay. It has been a little bit more challenging environment. A lot of people are introducing cost savings up to #9 for certain folks. What are you thinking about on the expense side?

So what I would tell you, I actually go to the Board in week and a half. And now having the Board around here, but it's been a pretty good environment for planning. It was probably the easiest plan that I put together so far, to be honest with you. It really comes down that our leadership is really aligned on what we have to do. And I am just so happy and pleased with what. So I challenged all of my peers to come in at flat expenses. I asked them to absorb their merits at 3.5%. I asked them to fund any job growth or changes or whatever. And we're there on that. I'm not going to say we're going to guide yet or anything like that. But I have basically no expense growth. Now there are certain projects that we are working on in the company. If you look at our priorities that we have, we have 4 main priorities. One is continuing to build out the markets that we got from people. So in New England, Long Island. So we will invest in that. We want to continue to invest in our operations areas from an automation perspective. We're investing in resiliency, I can finance. I thought I would never put in another general ledger in my career. Guess what, I'm putting in another general ledger at this time. But actually, it's going really well. But that's a resiliency investment from that perspective. And the other one is just continuing to build out our risk infrastructure that we have. And our risk infrastructure is really sound. But as you get larger, you just need to continue to automate. So as we're building out the general ledger in the past, I built out an automated LCR 2052a process. We're doing the exact same thing here at M&T. So we're trying to automate. For me, it's my capital liquidity, RRP as much as possible. For Mike Todaro, it's a broader challenge of how we manage risk from a risk appetite perspective. So we are making those investments. But given where we ended with the lines of businesses and support groups, I feel really good that when we come to guide in the January time frame that will be a modest increase off of what our base is.

Okay. So on the automation, are you using AI for that? You should talk about that sensibly. That's the only way your stock price -- and we'll talk about the GLP-1s after that.

I remember the [ dot-com era ] too, if you go back 20 years.

I'm just going to pause for a second and see if anybody has any questions.

So it's a commercial real estate question. M&T has a great reputation on underwriting, very strong track record. People's, I would say, is more average. So I'm wondering, I think probably about 30% of your commercial real estate portfolio is from People's. Is that right? And I'm wondering if you could differentiate in terms of like broad characteristics, loan-to-value at origination. I also think People's did cash out refis, which I think M&T doesn't. And I guess you've had People's for a bit of time, so maybe that's amortized down a bit. But just help us understand, are you seeing the problems more on the People's side than M&T? Just help us understand those. I guess M&T is more kind of -- has more in New York, but...

Yes. That's a good question, Julian. I think when we purchased People's, we did a mark-to-market on the balance sheet. So any risk that we saw at that time, we kind of addressed that risk from that perspective. Obviously, interest rates continue to get higher. So there is more stress in the system, both on the legacy portfolio as well as on the People's portfolio. I really wouldn't differentiate the 2, to be honest with you. I mean, one of the reasons we merged with People's is we thought that they have a really sound credit underwriting process and we believe that was a good fit for us on how we do that. Rates where they are and higher for longer are just putting more stress in the system. And I think that's just what you're seeing playing out. I think I signaled in the earnings call, and you'll see our Q that comes out early next week. But our criticized numbers are going up. And the main reason for that is the majority is in the multifamily space. And it's really driven by just rates higher for longer. It doesn't mean the projects are not performing well. It just means the interest rates are going up higher and some of the hedges are starting to mature from that perspective. We take a very long-term approach. Our model is to work with clients that work with us. And we have great client selection as how we go to market and do that. So we think we're banking the best clients in the markets that we serve from that perspective. And we will support those. When you do see us exit out of loans or properties, it's really more the people that were investment funds where they took their cash out already and they aren't going to support those products. Those are the ones that we exit out early. And we don't -- we've done a few of those. We might do more of those in the future from that perspective. But that's really what we're really selling. Otherwise, we're going to work with clients that basically have been with us for a long time.

And just to follow up, when People's did do cash [indiscernible], is that correct if they did it? Like what would they [indiscernible] leverage to go up to...

I might have to phone a friend on that one, John. I don't know that one, to be honest with you. Yes, we can get back to you on that. If I would knew, I would tell you. The first one, I haven't asked that question in my 6 months being here. So I'll get that answer for you.

Before I go to Charlie, I just wanted to ask a follow-up. When you said you want to exit some of the ones that you're less certain about, is it easy to do that? Are there...

No, it's not very [indiscernible]. Obviously, there's not a lot of activity out there. There are one large portfolio that's out there being rumored to maybe be sold. So we'll see how that goes out there. My guess is that if and when the Fed decides to officially pause, which could be soon, could be 2 years from now, it depends on what happens. I believe that there's a lot of money on the sidelines that will know that's the bottom of the market and people will come in at that space at that point in time. But you're right, it is not robust. We were able to get that one hotel in New York City sold. We sold that property and actually had a recovery on it for approximately $5 million.

Yes. Daryl, I wanted to test out a theory on you and see what your reaction is. So the current narrative is the banks are over earning on NII. And obviously, the concern is that the demand deposits will continue to migrate away or deposit balances would decline or repricing, et cetera. And that's all based on a very high-level theme that QT is going to continue to drain liquidity and treasury issuance is going to train liquidity. So my theory is that maybe you can over-earn for longer than expected. And the reason is if you understand how the treasury has been financing during the third quarter, when bank deposit balances actually started to stabilize. It was because they were issuing treasuries at the short end, particularly T-bills. And now they're up to their maximum 20% of marketable mix. And that came out of the reverse repo facility. And so excess reserves remain fairly stable at $3 trillion. Going forward, they're talking now about buying off-the-run coupons. Essentially, they're going to do yield curve control issue at the short end and buy at the long end. And that program is running a test pilot of $30 billion right now. It's probably going to go to $60 billion to $100 billion. If I understand my tea accounts correctly, when they buy those off-run coupons, it's usually from pension funds, insurance companies, corporate treasurers. So those guys get cash, and that cash goes back into the banking system as a demand deposit. So you may not get that decline in banking deposits that everyone's talking about or that continued migration, at least until the reverse repo facility is completely run down. Does that have any merit in your mind?

I think it does have some merit from a flow of funds perspective. Our institution for the most part, I think it just has the DNA to actually go to market all the time to try to get deposits, operating accounts. So we're always on from that perspective. But I think from a macro perspective, having that ability to have less pressure in the system, I think that would create some more modest pricing competition potentially out on the market place if supply of funding actually settles down and doesn't shrink anymore. So I think that's a possibility. To me, though, it really gets back to how do you run a bank's balance sheet at a higher rate environment. And to first part of your question, you need to have discipline in how you price your loans. You need to put prepayment penalties on your fixed rate assets that you can need to price your deposits under the funding curve. We did that 25 years ago from that, and we need to have that discipline, how you do that on a go-forward basis. We can earn pretty good margins at these rate levels. Even if rates drop 1 or 200 basis points, it's still at a pretty high rate level than what we've seen in the last 10, 15 years. So I feel very comfortable that we will have a -- continue to have a good margin for M&T on a relative basis versus the industry. We'll always have that advantage just because of the mix that we have on the funding side and on the asset side.

Daryl, so you've had a buildup in cash the last few quarters, does that reflect a degree of like how you view the deposits? Or why don't you kind of like wind down some of the short-term borrowings that are higher cost?

So we -- what you have seen come out is Basel III rules and you've seen long-term debt rules. Down the road, my guess is that you will probably see more rules come out to liquidity, interest rate risk of how that actually operates. I think we're just trying to get a little bit ahead of that. So if you look at how we model -- and I kind of mentioned it in the first question that Susan asked, but if you look at what we didn't model was the insured uninsured. So now we're factoring in that volatility into our liquidity stress scenarios. That adjustment for us that we started to implement was an increase of $4 billion of highly liquid assets that we operate with. It doesn't have to be all of the Fed. It can be the Fed or in the investment portfolio or whatever. But it is something that basically will have more liquidity available. That will put pressure on the NIM depending on the shape of the yield curve, it may or may not impact NII a whole lot depending on how that plays out. But it's really just trying to get ahead of where they were probably moving to and trying to just run the company from a conservative posture that M&T has done over many, many years.

And then just separately, so you listed a few investment [indiscernible], where are the line of business CFOs getting their cost savings to offset those?

It's a mixture of highly run businesses. I'm a big believer. So I'm not a fan of consultants at the end of the day, it's just not in my DNA. And I'm a big believer that if I can challenge my peers that know how to run their businesses and have them kind of restructure their businesses and adjust those businesses, they're better to do it than anybody else in the process. And they were able to restructure. Some of it was maybe some workforce strategies that occurred. Some of it was how they basically operated in their businesses from an expense perspective. It's a mixture of a bag there. But it's -- I always like to empower the people that run the businesses first and let them have a choice of how to make them more efficient as possible and still grow their business from that perspective. So I thought that was really important and they rallied and delivered on that.

Daryl, you've been doing deals since your days at First Star decades ago...

Star Bank, actually.

Yes. And I saw you talking to the Fifth Third's CFO out there, maybe it was about the Bills Bengals. But could you talk about the appetite for deals out there and what the environment is?

Yes. So when I was interviewing for -- with Renee and he was my last interview. He said, what are you going to do with the Bills and the Bengals because he knew I were up in Cincinnati. And I said, "I would root for the Bills except when they're playing the Bengals, which happens to be this Sunday night from that perspective. But yes, Jamie and I know each other from Cincinnati days. So your question on...

The appetite in the '90s, for example, completely different...

It's just really tough to do deals right now. I mean, if you look at most of the banks out there, just because of the mark-to-market of their balance sheets, there's just not a lot of equity out there. So it's really hard to get the math to work to actually do acquisitions. There's a capital hole that we have to fill. We're one of the few banks that have a significant amount of capital with our tangible common equity at 7.8%. So my guess is that over time, there will be other transactions and that would happen. Right now, I don't foresee anything happening on a more -- unless it's a forced type of transaction, I don't see anything happening just because of the marks you have to pay and what it would do to your tangible book dilution and all that. It's just really hard to get it to work, but you've been through cycles before and definitely believe that there will come a day. One of our core competencies is really doing bank acquisitions and doing a really good job on the bank acquisitions, and we will continue to do that when it's appropriate. But M&T is not going to vary from what we do. I mean we're really good at in the markets that we serve. If we do anything down the road, it will probably be something similar to what we've done in the past, if we won't get any surprises out of what we do when that happens.

Okay. Any other questions before we move on? Great. Okay. I just wanted to follow up with what you had said before that you are not on a risk weight diet, like many others are, you have a fair amount of capital. So is there opportunity to maybe grow the loan portfolio a little bit more than the average rate now?

Yes. So we actually had a call with our senior leadership, which is our top 300 people in the company, and I had 5 asks out of the leadership team. And one of them, my first ask was basically, with the exception of CRE, we want to be able to grow C&I and consumer, but we want to do it within what the market will give us. Obviously, we aren't going to do anything in stretch from a credit perspective. But if we can get the right pricing, we get the right -- stays within our risk appetite structure, I think we're definitely open for growing there. And I also asked them to also ask for the deposits as well on that. So it's getting the relationships. We've actually been growing customers in the last 2 quarters and all that. So that's a real positive. And that's -- we are trying to grow as much as we can. Now we don't have any, obviously, any capital constraints and all that with our capital levels where they are. So it's just a matter of executing and getting good quiet relationships over to M&T.

So are your loan officers or when you're at some of the committees as they say, it's noticeable that there are people that are out of the market right now, and this is an opportunity for us or it's -- that's a little exaggerated?

Yes. I mean, obviously, our competitors are going to protect their best clients and all that. So you have to win over the client selection that you want from that perspective. But I think we just have more ability just because of our strong capital and liquidity versus others right now, and on the margin, I think we're winning the day in our markets.

Okay. And then switching back a little bit to the deposit side and then maybe a follow-up to what was asked before. How do you think about the use of brokered deposits and some of the excess liquidity you have and just your growth? How do you think about this?

Yes. So I -- we have to fund the bank and not all the funding as much as I would like it to be all customer funding, it's not all customer funded. So we use unsecured debt. We use Federal Home Loan Bank advances as well as broker deposits. With a long-term debt requirement, you will see us use more unsecured debt over the next year or 2 as that requirement goes into place. And my guess is that we will pay off and continue to shrink Federal Home Loan Bank advances and broker deposits over time. It's really just -- what do we think is available? What's the best funding source for us at this point in time? We are intentionally, if you look at broker, it's kind of a static number right now, but we are changing the mix of that. It's not -- I think it's $8 billion CDs, $4 billion money market that's making us less asset sensitive. So we're trying as -- we have disintermediation in the sweeps as we move this in the brokered money market, we're naturally becoming more neutral on a rate sensitivity perspective, which is kind of where we want to position ourselves probably over the next year or so.

Okay. And then I guess, moving -- oops, sorry.

So you did issue some bonds last week. It was a relatively pretty small deal. My concern is if you're issuing at sort of 2.5% plus credit spreads, which is kind of very high for the quality of bank that you are, and you're using that to pay down FHLB, which is kind of 0 spread, you're basically locking in a 2% plus negative spread. So why don't you just put it off as long as possible and hope spreads come in after the crisis because you've actually got a long time or it may not get implemented as it's been outlined. Like why not just take your time on this?

Yes, Joan, that's a great question. So we are trading wider than spreads, probably because of our exposure to CRE or office would be, probably, why you have the spread widening. The deal that we did was oversubscribed, but we basically did a small deal of $750 million. We did that intentionally. And you saw from issuing that our spreads tighten down and they continue to tighten down, so our strategy really is to continue to go to market with smaller type transactions and try to push those spreads down to where we think they should be over time. We need to really work on that and deliver on that, and that's really the main reason that we did there. It helps us a little bit from a long-term debt perspective, but it was really just trying to position the company to work on tightening those spreads down some, creating a demand out there for it.

Any other questions before I go ahead? Okay. A good segue into credit. That has been what people feel like is the next [indiscernible] to job now, we're going to have credit problems. So can you talk about the credit trends in your portfolios right now. And then I'll do a follow-up on other parts?

I think overall, our credit trends have been relatively strong, pretty much on target with what we communicated to the marketplace. I think all that's coming through from that perspective. Obviously, office is probably one of the most highest risk areas that we have. We've done deep dives on office. We've done deep dives on our health care portfolio. We now done deep dives in our multifamily portfolio. So we are digging in, where we see any chance of risk of maturities in the next 1 to 2 years, and we're looking through those transactions to see where we could have issues from that perspective. So we continue to review those portfolios from that. From a consumer perspective, we're pretty much of a prime borrower. So I'm saying we're not seeing anything other than more normalization for the most part. Our C&I book is holding up really well if you look at it. So that's performing, I think strong from that. We are shrinking our CRE exposure, and we're bringing that down. We've done it since 2020, we brought it down about $10 billion. We will continue to bring that down this quarter as well as into next year, another probably $3 billion to $4 billion from that perspective. So we're on that trajectory down, just trying to change the mix of how that balance sheet operates is very similar to my prior life, to be honest with you, if you go back a decade ago when I was at BB&T in Winston-Salem, we had a lot of CRE. And over time, we basically changed the mix prudently into more C&I and more consumer lending, and we made that transition over 3 or 4 years, and that's really what we're doing here at M&T. So I've seen this before.

And you're achieving that mostly through attrition. If it comes for -- to maturity, you...

The vast majority would be attrition and just being less active on originations in certain spaces. We still want to support our valued clients in the markets that we serve, but there are opportunities where we can pass on certain transactions, and that's how we're shrinking for the most part. Every now and then, you might see some sales, but for the most part, it's just more -- just maturing...

Yes. Okay. And can you see where those clients go? Are there plenty of banks that are lining out to...

CRE is the place that I think is just -- there's not a lot of opportunities for people to there. So I would say, there's just not a lot of demand for more CRE lending. When you look at the agencies, those are at really high rates, so that's pretty soft right now. Insurance companies relatively soft, so that's not an asset of choice at this point.

Yes. Okay. And then just circling back to multifamily. When you think about a couple of things, the inventory that's been built that's coming on. I don't know if that worries you or if there are certain markets in which you operate where it's a little more elevated. I guess, start there and then...

Yes. From a geography perspective, we aren't seeing any real big trends like we see in the Southwest area, there's more issues there. I think just because of the regulations that you see in the geography that we serve, there's a lot of restrictions there. So the overbuilding is less applicable in most of our markets that we serve from that perspective. For the most part, the transactions are performing well. It's just the higher interest rates is really what's putting on the stress. If you look at rents, if you go back a couple of years ago, rents were increasing mid-single-digit pace. Now rent increases are much more modest. And that's -- and couple that with higher interest rates as that's what's putting the squeeze on the cash flows that you see. But if rates are going to pause, eventually, rents will continue to probably modestly increase over time. So I think a lot of that will work itself out. At the end of the day, our multifamily will exit through agencies or other third parties for the most part. There's some of that happening today and people are putting in rightsizing some of the transactions, and we're still getting some deals done. But there's others that are basically just in a temporary pause period until they can get them more rightsized.

Okay. And then when you're originating the multifamily loans, how much rent increases sort of factored into your underwriting or if that's minimal?

I would say it's modest. I think we're pretty conservative from an underwriting perspective. If we're seeing 3% now, my guess is we're probably modeling something less than 3%...

Okay. And then you built the reserve in the quarter. Can you just talk about what the drivers were behind that?

Yes. So from a dollar amount, our reserve went up $50 million. Half of it went to the CRE portfolio, which you would expect that. The other half went to C&I. And if you looked at the growth this past quarter, it was in C&I. So it was really the reserve to fund the new loans that you had on the C&I book from that perspective.

Okay. Any other questions?

With regard to the CRE and -- so I've heard that you said there's a lot of cash [indiscernible]. And yet I've heard that in like New York City office, there's no cash for nobody. They're trying to stay [indiscernible]. So how do you reconcile those 2?

I think there's cash that will surface once rates stabilize right now. Nobody is really saying that they're going to invest in CRE until the market stabilizes, probably what I would say from that perspective, it's a good value from a valuation perspective to probably enter the market once you know that rates have stopped increasing from that. So we'll see how that plays out.

Okay. Just one more on the capital side. You have pretty robust capital ratio, thankfully for you. But you talked about your share repurchases being paused. When do you think when you go to the Board, what has to happen for that to -- for the resumption in buybacks?

Yes. So we really like being in the position that we're in right now, having really strong capital and strong liquidity, not being on an RWA diet. We're in a strong position. So I think that's the position we want to stay in for the foreseeable future, that will eventually change over time. We'll let you know when that happens. But buyback has always been core to M&T. It's not going to go anywhere. Capital is there and all that. So at some point, you will see us return to share repurchase. But right now, as long as you think the markets kind of settled down a little bit, something else happens, and we just want to make sure that we're clear from any disruption in the marketplace because we're in such a strong position right now.

Okay. Great. Any other questions? All right. Well, please join me in thanking Daryl for joining today.