Mankind Pharma Limited (MANKIND) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Mankind Pharma Q3 and 9 Months FY '25 Results Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Abhishek Agarwal from Mankind Pharma Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us today for our Q3 and 9 months FY '25 earnings conference call. On call today, we have Mr. Rajeev Juneja, our Vice Chairman and Managing Director; Mr. Sheetal Arora, Chief Executive Officer and Whole-Time Director; Dr. Sanjay Koul, Chief Marketing Officer; Mr. Ashutosh Dhawan, Chief Financial Officer; and Mr. Prakash Agarwal, President, Strategy. We will start with Mr. Rajeev Juneja providing an overview of Q3 FY '25, followed by Mr. Sheetal Arora providing detailed insight into our business performance. Mr. Ashutosh Dhawan will then speak about our financial performance. And thereafter, we'll open the floor for any questions. I would like to emphasize that this was the first quarter with BSV included in our performance with 69 days of BSV effective from 23rd October 2024. Further, please note that some statements made today may be forward-looking, and for a complete disclaimer, please refer to the investor presentation and press release available on our website. Now I'll hand it over to Rajeev sir for his comments.

Thank you, Abhishek, and good afternoon, everyone. Wish you a very happy New Year. A very warm welcome to our quarter 3 and 9 months '25 earnings call. 2024 has been a transformative year for Mankind. We began by assessing our various M&A opportunities culminating in the acquisition of BSV, which perfectly complements our strategy of expanding into high entry barrier portfolios and having specialty R&D tech platforms. Our market share in IPM in value terms increased by 40 bps to 4.8% in December '24 versus 4.4% in March... [Technical Difficulty]

Ladies and gentlemen, please stay connected. We will reconnect the management. Ladies and gentlemen, we have the management line connected. You can go ahead, sir.

Thank you, Abhishek, and good afternoon, everyone. Wish you a very happy New Year, a very warm welcome to our quarter 3 and 9 months earnings call. 2024 has been a transformative year for Mankind. We began by assessing various M&A opportunities culminating in the acquisition of BSV, which perfectly complements our strategy of expanding into high-entry barrier portfolios and having specialty R&D tech platform. Our market share in IPM in value terms increased by 40 bps to 4.8% in December '24 versus 4.4% in March '24, primarily driven by acquisition of BSV. And therefore, we raised funds of INR 10,000 crores through NCDs and CPs for the acquisition. Additionally, we raised INR 3,000 crores in equity, which has been utilized to repay a portion of CPs as of January 16, '25, which shows our commitment towards maintaining a healthy financial position in the company. In line with the corrective actions taken in OTC division last year, we have undertaken certain corrective measures in our daily pharma divisions to enhance field force productivity and bring more efficiency in the system. We have always focused on building a solid foundation, on which this initiative is nearing completion. We are confident it will further support in delivering sustainable long-term growth. Moving ahead with our quarterly performance. In quarter 3 '25, our revenue increased by 24% year-on-year to INR 3,030 crores and a healthy EBITDA margin of 27.7%. Our organic growth for the quarter was 11.2% year-on-year with a domestic growth of 8.4% year-on-year and export growth of 43% year-on-year. For 9 months '25, our revenue increased by 17% year-on-year with adjusted EBITDA margin of 26.8%. Our organic growth for 9 months '25 was 12.3% year-on-year with a domestic growth of 9.3% year-on-year and export growth of 53% year-on-year. For Mankind, excluding BSV, chronic share has further increased by 200 bps year-on-year to 37.6% in quarter 3 '25 as compared to 35.6% in quarter 3 '24, driven by continued outperformance in key chronic therapies. Our commitment to make quality health care accessible to all has led us to expand our DMF grade products offering to over 215 versus 150 in financial year '24 with more than 90% of them in chronic segment, and thereby ensuring that our customers on prolonged medication receive products that adhere to international grade quality standards. Our corrective measures undertaken in OTC business is now completed, and we witnessed a robust revenue growth of 30% year-on-year during the quarter and 15% year-on-year in 9 months '25. On the R&D front, we continue to prioritize product innovation and building strategic partnership with innovators to strengthen our product portfolios. In this regard, we have recently partnered with Innovent Biologics for the in-license of sintilimab and advanced PD-1 immunotherapy designed to address the critical challenges of cancer treatment and improve access to innovative therapies in India. Overall, this year has been a transformative year for Mankind with 4 engines of growth: number one, steady base business; number two, fast-growing specialty chronic segment; and number three, high potential OTC business; and four, high entry barrier super-specialty portfolio of BSV. All 4 business verticals are placed well to drive long-term sustainable growth. And now I invite Sheetal to provide more details on our business performance.

A very good afternoon to all. Thanks for joining us today for our quarter 3 and 9-month financial year '25 earnings call. In the last quarter, we completed the acquisition of BSV, strengthening our high-entry barrier portfolio and adding incremental capabilities to our existing R&D tech platform. During the quarter, work on BSV integration in Mankind is on track. Looking ahead, our priority is the successful integration of BSV to ensure long-term sustainable growth. Before moving ahead to the quarterly update, I would like to express gratitude for the overwhelming response we received during the fundraising. And I would also like to extend my heartfelt gratitude to all stakeholders for their continued trust and belief in our vision. Talking about domestic business. In the third quarter of the financial year 2025, our domestic business revenue increased 16% year-on-year, majorly driven by continued outperformance in chronic segment and consolidation with BSV business from October 23, 2024 onwards. Our organic domestic growth for quarter 3 financial year '25 was 8.4% year-on-year. For 9 months financial year '25, the revenue increased to INR 8,203 crores, registering a growth of 12% year-on-year. Our organic domestic growth for 9 months financial year '25 was 9.3% year-on-year. In quarter 3 financial year '25, Mankind, excluding BSV, chronic share increased by 200 basis points year-over-year to 37.6%, primarily driven by 1.3x outperformance in cardiac and 1.1x in anti-diabetes. Now our CVM cardio rank has improved from fourth to third in IPM. As we know, cancer cases continue to rise in India with its burden projected to reach 29.8 million disability adjusted life years by 2025. We have recently partnered with Innovent Biologicals through an exclusive in-license agreement, sintilimab injection. This strategic collaboration aims to address the critical challenges in cancer treatment. Talking about OTC. This has been the first quarter of the OTC business post carving out the same into wholly-owned subsidiary of Mankind to maximize its true potential. In quarter 3 financial year '25, revenue increased by 30% to INR 193 crores. The revenue for 9-month financial year 2025 increased by 15% to INR 631 crores. The growth is largely attributed to healthy performance across key brands. Talking about international business, in quarter 3 financial year '25, revenue increased by 121% year-on-year to INR 457 crores. In quarter 3 financial year '25, led by increase in our base business, further supported by BSV International portfolio. Our organic export growth for quarter 3 financial '25 was 43% year-on-year. Together with BSV, we aspire to be one of the most admired company in the country, offering complex and specialty products accessible to all. Now I invite Ashutosh ji to provide a detailed insight into the financial performance. Thank you so much.

Sure. Thank you, Sheetal ji. Good afternoon, everyone. I'm delighted to have you all on our Q3 and 9 months FY '25 earnings call with us. This marks the first quarter in which we have started consolidation of BSV's financials effective 23rd October '24 onwards, along with OTC business, which has been carved out of Mankind into a wholly-owned subsidiary from this quarter. Let me briefly summarize the financial highlights of our quarterly performance for Q3 FY '25. During the quarter, our revenue from operations has increased by 23.9% year-on-year basis to INR 3,230 crores as compared to INR 2,607 crores in Q3 FY '24. This quarter's revenue is a combination of Mankind's revenue for the full quarter and BSV's revenue for part of the quarter. During this quarter, our EBITDA has increased by 36.4% year-on-year basis to INR 833 crores with margins of 25.8% as compared to INR 611 crores with margin of 23.4% in Q3 FY '24. The EBITDA margin for 9 months FY '25 were at 25.8%. However, if we adjust the EBITDA with nonrecurring expenses, especially related to the transaction, our adjusted EBITDA margins for the quarter were at 27.7%. The increase in adjusted EBITDA margin of 430 basis points year-on-year was largely due to improvement in the gross margin of 270 basis points and the balance is on account of operating leverage due to higher growth. In 9 months FY '25, adjusted EBITDA margins were at 26.9%. For this quarter, our gross margins have increased to 71% year-on-year basis from 68.3% in quarter 3 FY '24. This increase is a combination of sale price increase effect, favorable sales mix, and input cost. The R&D expenses for the quarter are INR 71 crores, which remains at 2.2% of the sales, which is within the stated guidance of 2% to 2.5%. Depreciation and amortization expenses increased to INR 192 crores as compared to INR 110 crores in Q3 FY '24. This includes amortization impact of INR 84 crores pursuant to provisional purchase price analysis related to BSV assets. The consolidated effective tax rate for 9 months FY '25 was at 21.2%, which is higher than 19.8% effective tax rate in 9 months FY '24, which is in line with our guidance of 21% to 22%. The PAT has decreased by 16.4% to INR 385 crores during the quarter in spite of increase in the reported margins of 240 basis points. This is primarily due to higher finance costs and amortization costs related to acquisition. Our diluted EPS is INR 9.4 per share of INR 1 paid for the quarter. The cash EPS, which is EPS adjusted for noncash items like depreciation and amortization was at INR 14.2. The net operating working capital days for the quarter has increased to 52 days as compared to 45 days in the preceding quarter. Further, in 9 months FY '25, our cash flow generated from operations was at INR 1,599 crores, which is on a year-on-year basis, a decrease of 2.3% from 9 months FY '24. This decrease is on account of higher working capital days and certain one-off expenses. As a result of higher working capital and one-off expenses, our cash flow to EBITDA ratio for 9 months FY '25 is at 67.4%. Our CapEx spend for 9 months FY '25 was INR 344 crores, which is 3.7% of total revenue for 9 months FY '25, and the same is in line with our guidance of 4% to 5% of the revenue. In order to maintain financial discipline and healthy leverage ratio, we have repaid INR 3,000 crores of CP last week from the proceeds received from QIP. Our net debt to adjusted EBITDA is 2.2x as on quarter end, and our endeavor is to achieve net debt to adjusted EBITDA of 2x by end of this year. This concludes our opening remarks, and now we are happy to take any questions which you might have. Thank you. Over to you, Abhishek.

Thank you. We can start the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from the line of Tushar Manudhane from Motilal Oswal Financial Services.

Sir, with respect to the prescription business, we have commented that there has been corrective measures as far as MR efficiency is concerned. If you could elaborate what were the lacunae or the loopholes which we have tried to address and subsequently improve the MR efficiency? That's my first question.

See, I mean, if you just look at our commentary, time and again we have said that we want to attain a leadership position. And when you think of these things, you basically work on certain areas of your weakness, whether it is marketing side, IT side or finance side, every place. So let's talk about the marketing side. There were certain inefficiencies in terms of a bit primary sales or discounted sales, the category of doctors coverage, or the strategy of entering in top doctors' chambers, top hospitals. And once you start working on these things, which we started working last year, to bring these changes in 15,000 people, you need to take certain bold steps. And we have always been very, very forthright and frank in explaining that for the strong foundations, we'll always go for any kind of changes which are basically right for the future sustainable growth of Mankind, and we have taken that. A lot of changes have been brought in leadership side as well. I mean a lot of new leaders have come from outside, those who can really bring these changes. That is what has been done. When you do these things, I mean, bumps can really come. But let me tell you one thing that we are very confident that going forward things will be even better, what was there in the past. 80%, 90% changes are complete maybe in next 1 quarter -- this quarter, I'll say. In Mankind side, pharma Delhi side, this will be complete. Let me further explain you with the example of OTC business. We took the same kind of steps last year in OTC side, where we just accepted that these are certain, I mean, practices, which need to be corrected, whether it was number of distributors, whether hiring off, bringing different talent, making sure that it's not a mixed kind of a culture where one guy, one leader is taking care of OTC and pharma both. And once we took that, look at the growth. And what gives us more happiness is that we are solid from inside. And I can tell you with fullest confidence, Mankind will always operate on these lines. I'm sure, I mean, I answered you?

No, no, that's quite comforting, sir. Sir, secondly, on -- while you have highlighted on the organic revenue growth, would it be possible to share organic EBITDA growth as well for the quarter?

So it will -- since this is the first year and the numbers are strictly not comparable, because BSV has been consolidated for the first time. And moreover, there has been one-off expenses also, which has impacted the overall EBITDA margin. So going forward, we shall be in a better position to give a better color around this.

But let me add one thing. I mean, once you take corrective actions, so margins always improve. That I can tell you. Margins will always improve. On one side, you will see that there's a less of growth. You can ask these questions. We know this. But once you take these corrective actions on a field force of 15,000, you bring a lot of new replacement, you challenge them, you push back, you do everything possible, right? And we have done it. And it's a long process. I mean, even in Mankind, 1 year it has taken, where we take everything very, very fast. For any other company -- it's a huge task for any company just to maintain everything, having a balanced approach. I mean, these actions can be taken in a tapered manner. But we believe that once we identify something, we work on that. So growth may be a bit affected, but naturally, the impact on margin increase is always there.

And it has been constant last quarter also at 27%.

No. In fact, it seems that if I adjust the onetime expense with respect to the acquisition, a 27.7% margin. Just trying to understand out of this, on a like-to-like comparison, if I have to do, for the base business, what is the EBITDA growth? So basically excluding BSV as well as excluding the onetime expense associated with M&A?

So Tushar, so BSV margins are in line with company average margins. So the core growth in the EBITDA you see is as per what you see, because even if you strip that, you'll get the same number.

The next question is from the line of Kunal Dhamesha with Macquarie.

So first one, more clarity on the organic growth. So what you've been saying is quarter 3 organic growth for our domestic business is around 11.2%, right? Is that correct understanding?

So let us repeat that. So our overall growth organic is 11.2%, domestic is 8.4%, and international export is 43%. These are the organic numbers.

Okay. Okay. So in that case, our formulation business would have grown at around 7% -- 6.5%?

You mean the domestic ex OTC?

Ex OTC, yes.

Yes, that's around 7%. That's right.

Okay. So this is obviously a meaningful slowdown from what we have been seeing. While our chronic has improved, our acute seems to be bleeding in my view. So what are the steps that we have taken? And what is the outlook on the acute therapy since it's still -- while we are growing our chronic, acute is still the bigger part of the chunk, right? So how should we think about the organic domestic formulation business going forward?

As Rajeev ji highlighted, there is significant corrective action taken in the Delhi division, which is largely the mass market division where acute sits. So there, a significant corrective action in terms of field force optimization, productivity improvement, efficiency improvement is taking place. So that's why you see acute being sharper drop across acute therapies, not only one. So that is the main reason. And while you see that there is some impact on chronic, I would also say that we usually grew 1.3x, this time it has been 1.1x. But that journey continues because of the higher focus. And your observation is totally right that acute is softer because of these corrective measures, which Rajeev ji already highlighted just before.

Let me elaborate even further, I mean, Kunal, to your query. So wherever you take corrective actions, right, corrective actions in terms of everything, once we identify in Mankind especially that these are certain things to be cleaned up, corrected, then we move very fast, irrespective of anything, because our concern is always the foundation, the strength, the substance of Mankind, because that drives the organization. So we've worked on that and a lot of changes we brought in our leadership as well, whether in the field, whether it's head office, in marketing, every place. And once you do all these things in a field force of, again, I repeat, 15,000-plus people, it takes time. We started this process last year, I'll say, March -- Feb, March. So 80%, 90% is done. You take up every division, every zone, every area, scrutinize that, check it, which ZM, which RM, which sales manager, which marketing manager, which person, which BU head, and then we take action. And we have taken that. The kind of actions we have taken, I can tell you, you'll find rare company taking these things, because there is always some kind of a burden on those people of showing off the performance which is actually not there inside. In our case, because we are promoters, we can say no, I mean, our foundations are more important than anything else. So we have taken this.

So there is one more fact that we have to take into consideration. There have been regulatory tailwinds regarding emergency contraceptive pills and anti-infective as a combination, that is an FDC, and a codeine preparation that also has impacted the growth in Q2 of acute segment.

Sir, can we quantify that impact, all these 3 put together?

It's about 0.5%.

And one question on the BSV. So if I look at the BSV revenue, probably it's around INR 330 crores, including domestic and export. And if I add it to the first half performance, we would be close to around INR 1,170 crores, which is roughly, let's say, 68% of the last full year revenue. So is there any seasonality that is playing out and quarter 4 could be very strong that could add 1/3 more revenue? Or is there a slowdown on BSV aspect as well?

So Kunal, this is for 69 days. So first point is we have to quarterize it, take it for 90 days, 91 days. That's the first point. Second, there is a significant restructuring going in the Rx business, that is the TTK business of the BSV. Because we understand Rx business better, that is getting shifted to Mankind. So there is a lot of field force optimization that is happening there. As we also said, there were 600 people in a very small division. So we are looking at optimization. We are looking at product portfolio rationalization and optimization there also. So various initiatives are going. We want to improve the hygiene of the business. So Rx business has been soft. Other than that, I think the other businesses are growing very well. So these are the 2 key reasons.

And then how should we think, let's say, 2 years out, what's the internal expectation for the BSV business growth, specifically for domestic as well as exports?

So overall, we continue to maintain that this is a high entry barrier portfolio and growing 15% plus should be possible with export being higher. And on the margin side, we continue to maintain that given its high entry barrier portfolio, margins, to start with, would be in the region of company average, 26% to 28%. And thereon, taking initiatives, R&D initiatives, productivity initiatives, we look forward that in 2 years' time, we should every year add on a little bit on the margin side as well.

The next question is from the line of Neha Manpuria with Bank of America.

Just continuing on the corrective actions that we have taken, have these corrective actions led to a reduction in the field force that Mankind had? Just trying to understand what essentially -- and has this led to lower spending in the quarter? If you could give us a little more color on what essentially is there -- I understand the opening remarks that you made, but just trying to quantify this.

Let me tell you, see, Mankind is known for its reach. We'll always maintain that. So what happens, there are certain customers which are very, very relevant. They were relevant 10 years back. But maybe today they are not relevant. The practices change, acute to chronic, some people age, right? So you need to change list of your customers as well, right? And when you do that, I mean, you want to penetrate in the hospitals and clinics of those doctors, those who are a bit high end. Keeping that in mind, these corrective actions have been taken, whether it's a talent, training, primary sales, discounted sales, coverage of doctors, everything, right? We have not cut down number of people, we have replaced people. I mean, especially in leadership side, I'll say. Because once you replace leadership, some people also leave with those people. I mean, when you say this is a new Mankind, this Mankind wants to become #1 company in the future. When you announce these things, it's not for the sake of announcement only. It's really to really walk the talk. So you take these hard actions, we have taken that. So we have not cut down number of people. And whatever, I mean, less number of people would be visible, they would be visible and they will be filled. We are in lookout. You keep seeing vacancies, you keep filling it. It's not like that. The strength of Mankind would remain intact, reaching -- just to give you an example of that. Every year, how many thousands of doctors come out of medical colleges. So that coverage has to be there, right? How many doctors -- customers become a little bit -- lose practice, you check the list, you find a lot of lacunae. Once you go deeper down, once in a while, and we went last year, when we basically started seeing the taste of chronic sales benefits, once we launched our specialty divisions in Mumbai side, we saw that what can really happen. So naturally, our inclination went towards that side. And once you go for that, you say, no, I mean, further deep down, why our existing divisions were not covering these doctors? Let's check it out. And once you go for a deep checking, you realize these are certain lacunae, and you work on those. And same -- I again want to reiterate that we started this journey last year Feb, March. This is almost 1 year. And this quarter, I can tell you, till now, 80%, 90% job has been done and dusted.

Understood. Understood, sir. Ashutosh sir, is it fair to assume that the organic SG&A cost would have declined materially quarter-on-quarter because of these corrective actions?

Yes, there has been some -- if you see, on a consolidated basis, so there is a delta of INR 50 crores. And if you see the one-off expenses, that's around INR 63 crores. So it is fairly flat, slight decline in the SG&A cost on a quarter-on-quarter basis.

So I want to add one point, Ashutosh ji. On March 31, 2024, we had a field strength of 16,043. On December 31, 2024, we have a field strength of 16,570. We have rather added more people.

Understood.

Some expenses have been rationalized on a quarter basis.

Excluding BSV that is?

This is excluding BSV, yes.

Okay. Understood. And my last question, when I think about the synergies that we can get from the BSV integration, what I think Prakash mentioned, what are the milestones that we need to watch? I mean, would it be procurement first, portfolio optimization probably takes time, field force optimization. So what are the milestones that we need to watch for to understand the synergies that you could get? And if you could quantify a synergy, let's say, over the next 2 years or 3 years that you're targeting?

So thanks, Neha, for your question. So we continue to maintain that about INR 50 crores to INR 100 crores synergy benefits will be there over the next 12 to 24 months, primarily led by 3, 4 things. So one is BSV's MR productivity, both Rx and non-Rx. So there's a lot of room. As you said, fertility is still INR 18 lakhs. We see peers around INR 30 lakhs. So that is one clear area. Then we are looking at shifting of outsourcing of Rx portfolio to Mankind itself because we have large facilities, and tablets and capsules we understand better in terms of manufacturing. So the Rx business, if it shifts, we see cost savings there as well. Plus, we see a lot of -- we have ourselves a large gynaec division, so we get access to those fertility clinics, because fertility clinics are growing very well. So there's a lot of cross-selling opportunity that we see. Plus there's a host of extensive geographical doctor coverage that both the companies can gain from each other, leveraging the extensive coverage. And lastly, there are some of the savings that can come from leveraging resources, because there might be some optimization that can be played out in future. These are the 4, 5 points, yes.

The next question is from the line of Rashmi Shetty with Dolat Capital.

In the anti-infective segment, in the presentation also, we have mentioned that we have underperformed the market, and you already mentioned that certain corrective actions had been taken. But in that, related to the product, you mentioned that the codeine-based -- we have also lost sales in the codeine-based product. But what I understand that the Codistar has already started picking up very well, and it is already getting around 80% to 90% of the codeine-based sales. So what is exactly leading to say that this product-related issue is still there?

So thank you so much for your query, Rashmi. There has been one product which has faced a regulatory issue. It is an FDC which got impacted in Q3. So that is why it has impacted the overall growth of anti-infectives. This is one. Second, when you make overall corrections in field force over a period of 9 months, so we are talking about good number of field force, and we have replaced the field force, but many colleagues in field are 3 months old, 1 month old, 4 months old, 6 months old. They will take some time to basically develop relationship and rapport the with the customers and things will improve in coming quarters and months.

So for this full year, taking into account that anti-infective will be slowing down, do you think that we would be just showing organic -- I mean, only Mankind's domestic formulation growth will be high single digit sort of?

So Rashmi, this is Q3 only where we have shown less than optimum performance of anti-infective. But if you look at the YTD, then we are almost equal to IPM growth, 5% versus 6%. So it's not way behind the IPM growth. And this will also be corrected in case I take into consideration the FDC which we had to withdraw because of regulatory issues.

Understood. And how is your Panacea portfolio performing?

Very good, very good.

It is still showing at around 20% sort of growth?

Correct. Correct. Our transplant business is showing 20% growth and the other products which we promote in other regions are growing by more than 25%. One is Sitcom and second is [ pilot ].

Second one is?

[ Pilot ], we -- Glizid.

Glizid.

Okay. Glizid. And out of your total purchase consideration, what is the split between intangibles and goodwill? Is it 70-30 only what you earlier mentioned? And how many years amortization you have taken?

So if you look at the plain split, so that is 2/3 is towards the intangible and balance is towards the goodwill, broadly speaking, okay? So if you look at the depreciable intangible assets, so that is around INR 9,000 crores out of the total consideration approximately. However, if you adjust it for taxes, it becomes INR 7,200 crores, and the balance gets allocated towards the goodwill. So that's how the broad part is. And if you look at the overall life of the -- useful life of these assets, so that ranges from 5 years to 30 years, but on an average -- weighted average basis, it's around 21 to 22 years.

Okay. And one final question. What is the cost of debt for the portion which is still there sitting in the balance sheet after INR 3,000 crore repayment? That is cost of debt.

Rashmi, it's 8%. And if you see, the INR 3,000 crores which we have repaid, it was close to 7.5%, but all the debt, which is INR 3,000 crores -- INR 2,000 crores of CP and INR 5,000 crores of NCD, it's in the range of 7.9% to 8%. It's there in the public domain along with interest repayments.

Just to clarify, Rashmi, further. There is a bulge in the interest expenses in this quarter, and this is towards expenses of some of the debt arrangement fee and other related expenses.

Yes, that's the reason I asked, because I just felt that the interest cost during the quarter was extremely high, because when you adjust 7.9% to 8%, the interest cost should have been lower. But fine, I just got the clarification.

The next question is from the line of Chintan Sheth with Girik Capital.

The question I had was on the interest cost only. So you clarified that there was certain cost related to debt raise that was also sitting in the interest cost. If you can quantify the same would be great. Because that will be nonrecurring, right?

No, that is not, because CP is getting retired and all those. So if you see the total expense is around INR 220 crores. And historically, if you see, on a quarterly basis, INR 10 crores to INR 12 crores is always the interest expense which is coming, because there are certain loans in the subsidiary. And we can give you color. For the next quarter, the interest cost would be in the range of INR 180-odd crores or so.

Okay. Next quarter, still on INR 7,000 crores of debt -- gross debt...

CPs, we have retired on 16th of Jan. So there will be a spillover effect also.

For 15 days. Okay. And on the corrective measures which you have taken for last 1 year on the prescription side, do you feel the hit which we have seen this quarter, where the growth has compromised -- for 4Q, there will be some more spillovers likely to happen and then next year onwards, we'll have a fresh growth slate to grow from thereon?

Yes. I mean, see, whatever actions we have taken, we have taken to ensure that in future we are much better, stronger than actual, right? And I again reiterate, 80%, 90% things have been done. Whatever is left, 10%, 15% would be done now. It is in motion, process is on. So 80%, 90% we say, it has been done, completed.

Okay. And the regulatory restrictions, the product which led to acute getting impacted, gynaec getting impacted, 1 or 2 products which you mentioned. Are we trying to recoup or are we trying to change the prescription, so that we can reintroduce the product in the market to get the sales recovering back?

So in gynecology, there was DPCO matter. So that we can only increase the volume growth, but it will still take quite some time to reach to the same number, because there has been steep decline in the value growth because of the DPCO. And second product is an anti-infective FDC, and we have already -- maybe in a month's time, we will be introducing a replacement -- kind of replacement of that FDC, a single molecule, so that we can mitigate the losses because of the dent that we'll get in anti-infective because of that anti-infective FDC. Let me elaborate on that. I mean, certain things keep happening. I mean, certain kind of headwinds are always there. If you're solid inside and you basically keep launching new products, ensuring that your INR 50 crores brand becomes INR 100 crores, you have certain strategies, right strategies, and you are entering and meeting right kind of customers, these things get mitigated automatically. I mean, they are not given so much of focus. It happened, happened. Now look forward and change the picture.

And lastly, on BSV margins, you mentioned that it is closer to the average adjusted EBITDA margin which we have kind of clocked. Going forward, we also mentioned that BSV has a potential to improve margins to about 30% level given the product being a high entry barrier and specialty in nature. We can scale that business faster with our reach and drive the margins upward of 30%. That is our goal. The synergy you mentioned, around INR 50 crores to INR 100 crores, is part of it, or that is a separate -- BSV targeted margins to improve from here on?

Yes. So over 2 to 3 years, we expect that there should be improvement in the margins by 100 bps every year, while it will require some R&D investments also, because to enter into some of these semi-regulated markets, regulated markets will require investments, but we remain on track that in next 2 to 3 years, we would be close to 30% margins, and for sure in the next 5 years.

And kind of synergies are baked in this.

Yes, synergies are baked in, yes.

Synergies are over and above it, right?

They are part of this, yes.

The next question is from the line of Amlan Das from Nomura.

Most of my questions have been answered. I just wanted to ask one question. In the organic domestic formulation growth, what has been the contribution of volume, price and new products?

Yes. So if we look at the quarter, there has been a slight decline in the volume because of those corrective actions. So it's about minus 1%. And price growth is about 3% and NI, new introduction, is about 3%. So this is as per secondary data, IQVIA, 5% growth is what we have got from IQVIA. But if you look at YTD, then volume growth is around 1%, 4.4% is price growth, and 2.6% is new introduction growth.

Okay, sir. And just wanted one clarification. I think I missed a part. So these corrective measures, these will be continuing in the next quarter, right?

This quarter. See, I mean, again, 80%, 90% job has been done, but 10%, 15%, I mean, it's always a work in progress, will be completed within this quarter only.

Sir, is it possible to quantify the impact of these corrective measures on the growth? What has been the impact?

So quantification is not possible, but you can see, I mean, when you take these actions, so your growth is not great. You're not happy with the growth, number one. Number second, when you -- but the best part basically is what, EBITDA margins are increased. The happiness is what, that you have steered the company in the right direction. New young leadership enthusiasm has been infused. So every company once in a while needs some kind of changes, which we have brought.

And regarding the quantity, basically, if you can see, in the history of Mankind, we have always grown 1.1x to 1.2x better than IPM. So this time, our growth is subdued. That's the way I could...

What I wanted to understand is that the negative volume that we have seen this quarter, is it majorly because of the corrective actions, or is it also...

May I request you to use your handset, please, sir. Your audio is breaking, sir.

Can you hear me now?

Yes, sir. Please go ahead.

Yes. I just wanted to clarify that the volume growth -- negative volume growth that you have seen in this quarter, is it majorly because of the corrective measures? Or there is also a market phenomenon here, that actually the volumes have been decreasing of the products?

Mainly because of corrective action.

The next question is from the line of Kunal Randeria with Axis Capital.

Sir, just to clarify on the BSV business, from what I understand, this year, the BSV business revenue should be flat. Would that be correct? And that's largely because of some changes in the employee structure that you are doing there?

So if we exclude the Rx business, the business has grown double digit. And Rx business is one more quarter. There is a restructuring going on. The business is getting shifted to Mankind. So going forward, I think fiscal '26, when you see, you'll probably see all the businesses ex of Rx. And the specialty business, which is women specialty as well as the international specialty, both are growing double digits. So it's the Rx business, and there's a small element on the API side, barring that, business is in good shape.

Fair enough. But at consol BSV level, it would be flat this year, right?

Consol level, yes, one can say so. And this is strategic to improve the hygiene and the quality and productivity.

Got it. That's very clear. Secondly, on the export front, you've had a great last few quarters. Last year, you used to call out that it was driven by some of these onetime opportunities, but there's been quite healthy growth even from those levels. So can you just give us some color on how much of this export portfolio you still classify as limited competition?

The last part was not clear, sorry.

So I was asking that you have still grown from last year's level when a lot of the business last year was driven by one-off opportunities, as you yourself called out. So in today's revenue generation, how much of the portfolio would you classify as limited competition?

No, no. So if you see, we have given some data on the new launches as well as approvals. So now the base business is growing pretty well, both in the U.S. and ROW. Excluding that one-off also, the business is growing. And the share of that one-off has come down substantially. Despite that, there is a decent growth happening.

Right. And the new launches or the base business that you speak of, margins would be near the company average?

So that would depend. It's very difficult to quantify margins for the regulated markets. That is product specific.

The next question is from the line of Dheeresh Pathak with WhiteOak.

I hope I'm audible. In the BSV, INR 1,723 crores revenue of FY '24, how much was the Rx business in that?

For the quarter and for the year, I mean, when we were acquiring, we had said it's about 11%, 12%. For the quarter, we are not quantifying. But since the growth has come down, you can imagine the ratio would have come down substantially.

Okay. And this INR 1,724 crores to the earlier question, Prakash, you said, this will be flat in FY '25, the total sales?

That means marginal growth. I mean, it would be single-digit growth. But yes, because of these corrective actions, we think that making solid foundation is more important, improving hygiene is more important. We are also taking some steps to align BSV to Mankind policy. So this is, I think, transient. So Q4 onwards, I think you will see the base starting to grow.

Understood. And on the restructuring, so you mentioned senior leadership changes and MR restructuring. Apart from that, what else have you changed, sir?

See, I mean, once you bring different kind of leadership, different kind of policies in the sense that approach to market, how to approach a chronic product, how to bring new products, how to make sure that your acute business is doing good. Plus, I mean, other changes are basically bringing some kind of automatization, using more of IT side, using more of digital side, all sort of things, because ultimately, I mean, if you bring a modern leader, it brings modern things, and things are changing. And making sure that hygiene is always there. Right hygiene is most important for us.

So I'm just trying to understand that like in consumer business, there was a channel change. So there was a difference in the primary and the secondary sales. So in the prescription business, have you done -- apart from the MR restructuring and senior leadership changes, have you done any channel policy changes? So there is a difference between primary and secondary sales?

Yes. In primary side, in discount side, in hospital extra discount side, in customer list side, going to those areas and those hospitals which was out of coverage, all sort of things.

But the final secondary sales at the customer end. do you have a measure of how much that would have grown? Because if you're showing primary at 7%, then how much is the channel impact? Is there an estimate of that in your mind?

I always believe that once you bring these kind of changes and you maintain and make sure that hygiene is there, secondary is no less. Primary and secondary should be equal. How is it possible that it's prescription versus primary sales? Prescription is secondary and primary you fill. I mean if you basically believe that you are in a solid ground, you always make sure that your secondary is more -- secondary prescription is very, very good. And based on that, you fill the inventory.

Sir, maybe if you can give one of the examples of the senior leadership changes, so that we get some qualitative color of what exactly changed in the senior leadership?

So, I can add. So we have a lot of divisions. So if you see, we have more than 15 divisions. And in the large divisions, where there was some rigor required, we have added some leadership change. That's one big change that has happened. So when these large divisions start growing double digit, you will probably see a good change next year. We'll take the last question, please.

The last question comes from the line of Abhinav Ganeshan with SBI Pension Funds.

So just one clarification I wanted and some qualitative color. So just wanted to understand, on company-wide PCPM basis, for your whole business and for the chronic segment, is the chronic PCPM starting to grow faster than overall PCPM? How do we look at that?

It's always like that. I mean, chronic was always growing faster. It was always like that. I mean, we just mentioned that now it has reached to 38 -- 37-point-some percent in our total sales, which is 200 bps more than last year. So once we understood that chronic is way forward, and for chronic, you're supposed to approach those specialized doctors. So naturally, I mean, it's not approach, it's total change. Total ecosystem has to change in the sense who is going, what is he supposed to talk, whatever training should take place, everything.

So just to clarify, the growth is faster in chronic, but as an average, PCPM in acute will be higher because of the aging is much higher.

Yes, I appreciate that color. So is it a safe assumption to make that in the next 5 to 6 years, as this chronic business also ages, we come towards the company average?

100%.

That was the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.

Yes. Thank you. And please write to us in case you have any further clarification. Have a nice day.

Thank you. On behalf of Mankind Pharma Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.