Mastercard Incorporated (MA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay, guys, why don't we go on and get started. Again, I'm Darrin Peller, Payments IT Services analyst here at Wolfe Research. Thank you, guys, all for being here, and good afternoon, everyone, for Day 1 of the Wolf Fintech Forum here in New York City. Really happy to have the team from Mastercard with us today, both Sachin on screen. It's great to see you're doing well and great to have you with us even virtually. Appreciate you being with us.

Thanks, Darrin.

As many of you know Sachin is the CFO, and we have the Investor Relations team here in front of us as well. But as I said, Sachin, great to have you.

So why don't we just kick it off right away with discussing what you're seeing out there. I mean it's been a very volatile market for sure and a lot of headlines going on. So maybe just if you could kick off with what you're seeing from the macro environment, consumer spending trends right now? Any color on what you see would be really helpful.

Sure, Darrin. First, I want to thank you for having me here. I am absolutely thrilled to be able to participate in this conference. Unfortunately, I'm not there in person, but I hope to be there pretty soon in person. So great to be here, great to be part of this conference. As it relates to your question on what we're seeing from a macro environment standpoint, look, I mean, if I just step back and I think about what's going on more globally, here is what I would tell you. I would tell you that we came out of our Q4 results, all of which you saw, with a pretty solid Q4. We gave you a sense on what our thoughts were for 2025 from a guide standpoint. Again, positive thoughts around that. All on the back of what I would call strong consumer spending trends backed by low unemployment rates, strong wage growth, things which were fundamentally supportive of what consumer spending would look like. And the reality is, we are a well-diversified business. We are diversified by geography. We're diversified by product, and that continues to be very much the case. As I look at trends and I look through quarter-to-date February, we see pretty steady consumer spending trends when adjusted for the leap year effect. So there's fact and then there's what the perception of the market is as it relates to what might happen on a going-forward basis. So always hard to predict what will happen on a going-forward basis. But what I can tell you is, from what we are seeing from a trend standpoint, quarter-to-date, February, stable consumer spending trends, that's certainly true from a switched volume, switched transaction standpoint, and all of this is adjusted for the leap year effect, which you guys all know and understand pretty well. And then when I look at cross-border trends, cross-border trends are holding up pretty well as well. So net-net, I would tell you, the business continues to perform. The diversification of our business model is actually playing out pretty nicely. So I feel like, so far, so good. Hard to predict what the future looks like. We keep a close eye on it. We see positives as well as potential for negatives on a going-forward basis, but we stand ready to act. And we've been there before. We've seen these kind of environments in the past, and we've been able to adjust how we actually manage the business to realize opportunities even in uncertain times, which we would expect that we would do on a going-forward basis as well, Darrin.

That's really helpful, Sachin. It's great to hear someone that actually has insights into the data versus just scary headlines around the world. So thank you for that. Look, you guys guided to the high end of low double digit to low teens revenue growth in '25, you exited the year at 16%. And I know there were some nuances in fourth quarter. So maybe just if you could help us unpack the bridge between the 2 and any notable areas of conservatism or changes to the cadence that we need to monitor?

Sure. So you're right, we exited Q4 at about 16% net revenue growth on a currency-neutral basis. Here's what I'd tell you, on a full year 2024 basis, we grew net revenue at about 13%, again, on a currency-neutral basis. And what we've guided for, like you said, is for 2025 full year to be at the high end of low double digits to a low teens range, which I view as pretty positive from a contextual standpoint. A couple of thoughts to keep in mind, when you think about exit rates for Q4 relative to what the full year guide is, is one is the leap year effect, which you've got to take into consideration. The second is, we had several new wins which came on to our portfolio in 2024, which we'll start to see the lapping effect from a growth rate standpoint of that take place. And we can talk a little bit more about what those are. We always have wins every year, but there were some fairly sizable ones, which came in, in 2024, which we'll see the lapping effect come through. The third piece is from a pricing standpoint, there was several pricing initiatives, which we put in place for the value we deliver in the market, which, again, we expect to lap as the year progresses. And then the last point I'd point out, Darrin, is you'll remember that in the second half of 2024, FX volatility started to come back into play. And so that creates for tougher comps as we go into the second half of this year. Again, hard to predict what FX volatility looks like on a going-forward basis. But when I kind of bring all of that into consideration, that's kind of the way we think about 2025, all backed on strong consumer spending trends as we had laid out as part of our Q4 earnings call. So nothing unusual to call out per se from a fundamental standpoint. There are certain mechanical issues, which are there as it relates to leap year and some lapping effects, which will play out when you start comparing exit rates from Q4 to the full year guide.

All right. That's really helpful. Let's shift gears, this may be a little bit higher level, but just given, again, all the noise in the market right now or -- and the fixation, I should say, on the tariff news. Maybe just discuss the implications from your perspective of tariffs or the potential inflation impacts on the business. How do we think through that for your model?

Yes. Look, I mean, this is -- obviously, it's all real-time stuff, right? I mean, as you can see, every day, there are new things happening from -- on the tariffs front, certainly as it relates to the announcement effects of this, it's still early days. I got to tell you, until we see tariffs come into play and come into play for a certain duration, it's really hard to predict what the impacts are going to be. And I say that only because there is what you hear about potential tariffs and then what you see in terms of actual tariffs being implemented. And then also, you've got to actually assess what the duration of such tariffs is likely to be so a little hard to predict. What it does do is it certainly creates a level of uncertainty in the minds of people just because they're not entirely sure as to how this will all play out. From our perspective, as I sit back and I think about it, I say, Mastercard is a well-diversified business. It is diversified across geographies. Certainly, we have a strong presence in the U.S., but we have a very strong presence in several other markets across the globe, Europe included. And when I sit back and I think about this, I think the diversification from a geographical standpoint, from a consumer payments vis-a-vis our services revenue growth standpoint as well as from a product diversification standpoint, debit, credit, prepaid, commercial, I think -- and this has not just happened by chance. This is by design. All of that kind of creates a level of resilience in the business model to allow us to withstand these uncertain times. And not to say we will not be impacted by the impact of tariffs to the extent they happen to be negative. But then on the other hand, there are certain areas from a tariff standpoint, depending on whether they're on carded or non-carded categories, we might see it actually playing out slightly differently. And so I guess the short answer is, it's hard to predict what the impact is going to be from a tariff standpoint. We'll closely watch it. We'll adjust our business model. We'll adjust the way we operate our business to reflect what the reality is. And we'll keep you apprised as to how things are going as it relates to that.

I appreciate that. I mean we've estimated it's just a volume-based analysis that somewhere around 1% inflation could be actually a net positive near term by somewhere around 0.6% impact to EPS or so, but that's obviously just pure volume lifting from the pricing potential uplift of inflation. However, we have to watch for, obviously, demand implications as well, as you said. Sachin, maybe we'll talk a little bit about some of the strong deal momentum you've had over the past -- really, the last few years. But if you talk about some of the several notable wins we've seen and just talk about how this is driven by the value-added services that you've been selling and the differentiation? If we could unpack that a little bit, including how you partner and what's been differentiated that's allowing you to win those businesses?

Yes. No, Darrin, absolutely. Look, we're actually very proud of the way our teams have executed from an overall market presence standpoint. And as we mentioned at Investor Day, since 2020, we have grown share across all products. With debit, credit, prepaid, commercial, and we've grown it at a healthy pace, right? And you know that our growth algorithm is a composition of not only what happens from an economic standpoint, but the secular trends and then there is the market share piece, which is what you're talking about. The market share piece, which we're actually exercising growth on is being driven by a combination of factors. One, it's certainly about the suite of services we offer our customers. But having a suite of services is important but equally important is the approach with which we sell our customers. And this is the solution selling approach that we have adopted as a company which is about making sure we truly understand what our customers need and what are the appropriate services and/or digital capabilities that we might be able to offer to them. Because this is not about saying we have a set of services and you must buy them because we Mastercard like them, it's about understanding what your needs as a customer are and how our services then cater to those needs. And I think to bring this to life, it's probably good to talk about a few examples as to how this actually plays itself out. So let's take something like a Varo Bank. I think you're aware about the fact that, that's a portfolio which is going to flip over to Mastercard. It's across debit and credit. And Varo Bank had certain interest and desires as it relates to how we would actually service them, one of which is our merchant-funded offers platform. They very much care about our merchant-funded offers platform. It suits them well. It's what they see as a differentiating factor. But in addition to that, our ability to integrate into their tech stack was something which was helpful in helping them get over the hump as to their willingness to take the leap to actually flip their portfolio to Mastercard. So it's a combination of how you approach the customer, how you go after understanding what their needs are and then meeting those needs the way they come around. So for example, if you think about some of our services, right, we have services which deliver on trying to drive revenue for our customers, so helping grow their top line. And these would be the equivalent of our marketing services, our consulting, our data insights and analytics. And then on the flip side, you've got services, which help to rationalize the cost base of our customers. And these would be our security solutions. These are the kinds of things which will help reduce their fraud experience, which would help reduce -- and that's a big cost, as you know, for our customers. So everything we can do to actually meet them where their needs are helps us win their portfolio. That does not mean we don't need to be competitive on the switching -- the play switching capabilities. But if you have to differentiate and win, you've got to come across with more than just saying, I'm a switch provider and I can provide you the rails to drive payments volume. I'm going to help you actually grow your revenue. I'm going to help you reduce your cost base. I'm going to help you do customer acquisitions. These are all capabilities, which help us win share. And frankly, this interaction model with our customers not only helps us win the portfolio, but also helps us inform what our future road map should look like from a product and services standpoint, in order to say, here are the things we need to invest on a going-forward basis if we have to continue to win portfolios going forward. So I give you the Varo example. I can give you the Citizens example, another big deal, right, where they moved their volume entirely to Mastercard, right? And then likewise, if I move outside the U.S. and I go to Europe, there was UniCredit, which is a migration, which is currently underway. It's across multiple countries. It's across, I think, close to 12 or 13 countries where we're doing this migration. For a bank to actually take a punt and to say, yes, we're going to work with Mastercard on our entire portfolio and go through a conversion. It's a big bet that they're taking, but they express that confidence by virtue of the fact that we've been able to show them that we can do successful migrations. And that comes through our services. That comes through our ability from a tech stack standpoint to meet with what they needs are. And these are things which have been very positive in terms of driving that share growth, which you're talking about.

That's really helpful. I mean you talked about a couple of the deals just a moment ago. But I mean, when we think about Citizens, as an example or just some of the others you mentioned, those have been big, big wins and actually big decisions by the banks to convert, but they also do have impact on growth, right? And so from a lapping standpoint, just remind us what we need to keep in mind for this year ahead of us when it comes to timing?

So look, I'll talk about the big ones, right, because you've got several smaller portfolios, which will migrate over time and things will happen. But let's take something like Citizens, let's take some things like the Wells Fargo small business portfolio. Let's take something like UniCredit, like, I'll just talk about the 3 of them. So Wells' migration was completed in the second quarter of 2024. So you should expect the lapping of that to take place in 2025 second quarter. Citizens was completed in the third quarter of 2024. So you'll see some lapping effects of that come through. And this ties back to your first question to me as to when you were asking about revenue growth rates, and I was alluding to the fact that there are some wins which are going to be lapping as a part of that process. As it relates to UniCredit, that's a multiyear migration. So I kind of see that as come on slowly and it will come on over multiple years. The migration has started. It will go through, through the course of this year. We don't expect there to be a big lapping effect as a result of UniCredit just because of the way it's kind of rolling on, right? But then you'll have others which will be smaller portfolios, which will actually lap through. But net-net, I would say, here's the upside on this or the positive part of this is, winning a portfolio is important, certainly, getting the volume on is important. But then what you do with that volume to drive growth at an accelerated pace is what's really important. And this is where our teams work very actively with not only the migration ensuring seamless migration, but what we can do to actually drive growth on those portfolios in excess of what they were doing in the past. Because candidly, if I put myself in the shoes of the customer, moving a portfolio from the competition to Mastercard, is not really why they're doing it. They're not doing it just because they're moving a dollar of volume from one network to the other network. They're doing it because they believe that dollar of volume can actually grow at a faster pace with Mastercard and could help grow their business. And that's what we are very focused on post migration, and that we'll continue to remain focused on.

All right, very helpful, Sachin. Maybe just touch also as far as this year goes on what you embedded in your guide. I know it was helpful, you did. But what did you actually think -- how did you think through the Capital One Discover implications? I know you talked on the call last call about incorporating it into guidance, but maybe just assumptions on impact, especially on U.S. debit?

Sure. So Darrin, like we said on the last earnings call, we provided you our thoughts around 2025 with what our best estimate is as it relates to the migration of the debit book from -- off of Mastercard's rails as it relates to Capital One. I think things will move around. It's our best estimate. And the reason I say things will move around is the deal's got to get approved, once the deal's got approved, what the pace of migration will take place will be dependent on how quickly they wish to migrate that volume over. What we have done is we have built into our forecast, what we think our best estimates are as it relates to the migration of the debit portfolio. Things can move around from there. We will keep you apprised as quarters go long as to whether there are changes in terms of what our thoughts are for the year based on what our most recent information is as it relates to the migration path. And that's on the debit side. But remember, we have a big credit book with Capital One as well. And that big credit book with Capital One is something we very well expect that we will continue to work and partner with them very actively to not only retain but grow. And that's very much part and parcel of what we do. And one might ask the question, but why is it that they would look to keep the credit book with you and not move to their proprietary network? And candidly, I would tell you, I think there's a lot of value we can bring on the credit both in the domestic environment and the cross-border environment from an acceptance footprint standpoint, from a services capability standpoint, from a tokenization standpoint, and candidly, the interchange arbitrage is not something which is actually prevalent on the credit side as it is on the debit side. So there's lots of reasons why we believe that we can actually deliver some tremendous value on the credit front.

All right. That's helpful. And I guess just very quickly on that note, I mean the competitive dynamic, we get this question often of whether or not they're emerging or not. I mean, from Discover, is it going to become more powerful of a competitor? I mean just what are your thoughts on the industry now or implications of the deal?

Look, I mean, again, I think Capital One is a very important partner for Mastercard has always been and will continue to be an important partner. We have always worked with folks who compete with us in certain areas, but also partner with us on other areas. And I expect that to be the case with Capital One as well. I would expect on the debit side, there will be the competitive piece, which is there. On the credit side, we would continue to partner, on services, we'd continue to partner. So I think from an industry dynamic standpoint, they're a formidable player. They are one who certainly will look to try and continue to grow at the pace they've been growing in the past and probably even more. That being said, these things are hard to do. There's an integration road map, there's things to be done as it relates to integration. There's making sure you don't have customer disruption as part of the migrations, which take place, all of those things, all of which I believe Capital One is very adept at handling. But then again, time will tell as to how this all plays out from a competitive dynamic standpoint.

Okay. Okay. That makes sense. Sachin just maybe we can shift and get into some -- maybe an update on some of the key 3 strategic priorities of the company, including the consumer payments side, the commercial and new flows and then value-added services and solutions, starting just with consumer payments. I know you guys embedded a high single-digit type algorithm on that front in your medium-term outlook at your Investor Day, but maybe just touch on the runway that remains and how you're going after it maybe, just providing some more details on the approach in developed versus emerging markets there as well?

Sure. So on consumer payments, it's like we said at Investor Day, we continue to see tremendous opportunity on consumer payments. And the opportunity is just both from a market share standpoint, which we already talked about. But more importantly, as far as I'm concerned is there's tremendous amounts of secular opportunity, which remains. So let's talk about, let's size the opportunity, and let's talk about what the approach is on consumer payments, right? So we talked about at Investor Day how we see P2M representing roughly a $54 trillion volume opportunity and about 2.4 trillion transaction opportunity. And as it relates to the amount of that $54 trillion, which remains to be carded, right? We think it's substantial. It stands at about $11 trillion, which still remains in cash payments and about 1.5 trillion transactions which are still happening on noncard rates. And this is important because when you think about $11 trillion of volume opportunity still in cash and 1.5 trillion transactions, that is a tremendous amount of runway, which still remains to be had for us to actually get going on the carded front. The good news is we've been very successful over the past decade to migrate a bunch of volume from cash and check to cards. The even better news is there's a tremendous amount of run rate going forward. And so the logical question is how and where? And let's talk about both how and where. The how is going to happen through a lot of the initiatives which we have in-flight, you think about things like contactless. So now we have about 70% of all in-store transactions, purchase transactions, which are taking place on contactless. That's a remarkable difference from where we used to be from a contactless technology standpoint. Now one might ask the question, why is contactless important for driving secular shift? And the reason is because contactless tends to go after what would be lower ticket spend, which has historically been in cash and you can go after that and convert it to card-based forms of payment. The other reason why contactless is important is because the safety and security, which comes with contactless and the convenience which comes with contactless helps to actually migrate volumes from what our closed loop environments to open-loop environments. So the case in point would be transit. And you know we've been wildly successful in terms of moving transit volume into an open-loop environment in markets across the globe. Certainly in Europe, you can see that, that is happening now in the U.S., and it's happening fairly significantly in the U.S., but also in markets like China. You've seen that happen in China, both for domestic and cross-border volumes where we're moving what was previously closed loop into open loop. So that's really important to actually migrate cash and check into electronic forms of payment. The second element is around tokenization. And tokenization is something which has been a long time coming, but I think you've kind of -- you've reached that inflection point. We are seeing meaningful amounts of volumes being tokenized, and one might say why does tokenization help. Once again, tokenization provides for an incredibly safe and secure experience, which allows for not only greater conversion from cash and check to electronic forms of payment, but also helps improve approval rates. And approval rates are important because what happens oftentimes is false positives result in volumes getting impacted and poor consumer experiences and tokenization addresses that and addresses that pretty well. So we like that. We like that approach we're taking, and we're taking that on a global basis. The third element I'd kind of point you to as it relates to how we're going after the secular opportunities with the work we are doing around targeting underpenetrated verticals and underpenetrated verticals are those of the likes of utilities, the likes of rent. These are important. There's a sizable amount of flows, which takes place, which have historically taken place either through cash and check or through traditional ACH rails. And we're starting to see good traction take place by moving those volumes over into card rails. I'll give you a case in point. The program we have with Bilt and Wells Fargo in the U.S., right, is it's doing really well. I mean we're seeing some significant volumes come through. I think it's incredibly creative on the part of Bilt and Wells Fargo to be able to pull that program together. We bring our digital capabilities as part of that solution and you're seeing good traction come through. And it's particularly relevant to, I would say, the younger generation who is looking for convenience in terms of rent payments where you're seeing that volume pickup take place. So again, I will tell you there will be different approaches by different markets as it relates to how you go about doing this. I'll give you an example. You asked a question around developed markets versus emerging markets, is the approach different? Let's take a market like Africa. And Africa is a big market, it's a varied market by country. But the commonality in a market like Africa is a lot of the African population does a lot of their banking work through MNOs, mobile network operators. We have struck partnerships with some of the largest mobile network operators, the likes of Airtel, the likes of MTN, the likes of Vodafone, all of whom have digital wallet capabilities where we are embedding our card capabilities, and we're helping up open not only the use of cards, but also the acceptance across the merchant footprint. So there are different ways in different markets in which we're going to go after, what is the cash opportunity as it relates to consumer payments. And we're seeing good traction across the board on that.

Yes. That's great. That was really helpful. Just shifting to the new flows in the commercial new flows area. Just remind us the biggest opportunities you see there and just how you're pursuing them first? And just how do you balance driving card acceptance and really the education of how to continue driving penetration in the commercial opportunity also? It's an area that we've honestly been spending a lot of time for years on. It feels like it's always like early days in commercial, and we haven't made an enormous amount of headway, but at the end of the day, it's such a big TAM that maybe there is some progress. I just want to say anything more on that would be great.

So first, let's level set where we are on the commercial opportunity as a company, right? So in 2024, commercial GDV stood at approximately 13% of our total GDV. So it's not insignificant. It continues to grow at a rapid clip. Sometimes I kind of sit back and I think, would I much rather than have commercial grow a lot faster than consumer? Or am I really happy that consumer is growing at a really fast pace and that commercial is also growing at an equally rapid clip? Which actually happens to be the case. If you look at how we've performed on commercial in 2024 relative to the competition, I would argue that we have done really well on commercial relative to how the competitors have played out in that regard. And this is true both from a share standpoint as well as tapping into the secular opportunity. So let's talk about what the total opportunity in commercial and new payment flows is. At Investor Day, we had sized this opportunity at about $80 trillion, right? About $16 trillion of that $80 trillion is in what we call commercial point of sale. And the remaining $64-ish trillion is in what we call invoice payments. So you have to break the 2 up because the solutions are slightly different as it relates to that. So the way you should think about that $16 trillion opportunity, which is there at the commercial point of sale is it is more akin to consumer payments but not exactly consumer payments. So it's about going after the small business universe. And we're going after that and doing -- seeing tremendous traction come through, case in point, winning the Wells Fargo small business portfolio. And the way we're doing it is by bringing in what I would call proprietary platforms, which are catering to the needs of the small business community. Two examples. Number one, we have something called the Easy Savings platform which is an always-on offer, which is a merchant-funded offer catering directly to the small business community. So if I'm a small business owner, I use a Mastercard card. That card is enrolled in our Easy Savings platform. I go on a business trip, I rent a car. If that rental car company is part of the Easy Savings platform, I get an always-on discount for the spend I do with the rental car company. Or let's move somewhere else. I mean you might have other such offers which are there in place. It could be for a whole host of services which is there on Easy Savings. It's a global platform. It's not just available in the U.S. as it's how we've created a 2-sided market for this, where the merchants want to bring offers and the cardholders want to spend at those merchants, which creates affinity for driving the shift which we're talking about here. So that's kind of first example. Then we have something called Biz360, which is providing a whole suite of services to the small business community to make them want to actually work with Mastercard. So you think about something that Mastercard's had for now decades called our Smart Data platform, which is an expense reporting platform. Small businesses need to be able to know how they're spending and to be able to account for that spend through that expense reporting process. But they don't need the most sophisticated expense reporting platforms like large multinational corporates do, and this is where Smart Data is made available to them to allow for that to happen. So while the spend is taking place at verticals, which are akin to what would be consumer verticals, you do need platforms to make that spend accelerate, and that's what we're focused on. That's going after that commercial point-of-sale opportunity. Then there's that $60 trillion-ish opportunity, which is there in invoice payments. And I argue that in the near to medium term, our approach on that is very much focused around our industry-leading virtual card capabilities. We continue to see tremendous traction in virtual cards. We're seeing that come through certainly in the travel vertical, but we're seeing that open up in several other verticals, such as in the logistics space, such as in the media space. Look, it's not easy, I'll tell you just because you have to come up with a proposition which appeals to opening up acceptance in these spaces, and we have learnt over time the things to cater to are, let's make sure we can provide the relevant data necessary to allow for invoice reconciliation. Let's make sure we've got what is known as a flexible interchange model to allow for the toggling up and down of what the cost of acceptance might be relative to the vertical in question. These are 2 important criteria, and let's provide a safe and secure experience. So Darrin, we launched something called Mastercard Receivables Manager and Mastercard Receivables Manager essentially caters to these 3 needs. It provides data on what invoices are being paid to allow for better reconciliation. It provides a flexible interchange model to allow for the issuing bank to work with the acceptor of those payments to say, what is the appropriate level of costs you're willing to bear for the working capital advantage you're going to get by virtue of accepting a virtual card. And so if you create the right environment for issuers and acquirers to work in this environment, you start to see traction come through, and that's what we're seeing come through.

Sachin, just in interest of time, maybe a quick minute on value-added services and solutions. And just remind us the percentage of that that's coming from transactions. I think it was 60%, if I remember from the Investor Day, but more importantly, what gives you the conviction that what's been sort of strong growth part of your business has sustainability now in the next year or 2?

Yes. So at Investor Day, we pointed you to the fact that approximately 60% of our value-added services and solutions, net revenue is network linked. And by network linked, you think about it as transactions, but then in several instances, it's the mix between card present versus card not present. So that's why we call that network linked. It's not necessarily specific only 2 transactions but in some way, shape or form related to payments. So I think you touched upon, you asked the question, what gives us confidence in the growth potential, right? The confidence comes from the fact that if you believe that on the payments front, there is good runway which remains as it relates to payment volume growth and the fact that 60% of the net revenues come from network linked capabilities, you'll tend to write that secular opportunity, both across consumer and commercial payments on the services side as well. So that's point number one. Point number two is around deeper penetration across our existing customer base as well as tapping into new customers with our existing services. Back to your original question, as to how we win share and how we expand because when we win share, we not only generate more revenue on the payment side, we also charge for the services we deliver, so you've got the opportunity there. And then the third piece I'd mention to you is on the services front, we are very actively looking at opportunities to expand what we call a serviceable addressable market. So there is the total addressable market and then there is the serviceable addressable market. And the best example I'm going to give you is that of Recorded Future. So we announced the acquisition of Recorded Future, which is the world's leading independent threat intelligence company. And really, what these guys do is they allow us to play in a space we never played in before. And that's about expanding your serviceable addressable market. And we will continue to do that going forward. It's relevant. And we do that because not only they bring a set of capabilities, but we can take their capabilities along with our data and our capabilities to make it an even stronger proposition. So that's kind of how we're driving our services capabilities.

Very helpful. I mean, on that note, talking about Recorded Future, just generally, when you think about M&A and buy versus build and partner going forward, where's your -- what's your thought process around weighing one versus the other going forward from here?

So look, I mean, our philosophy around M&A is pretty much unchanged from what it's historically been. It's going to be strategy-led. Is it how does it fit to our strategy? Number one, when we think about our strategy, we think about what are the things we need in order to actually execute on it. Are we going to actually build or are we going to buy? If you're going to build, then it's organic. If you're going to buy, it's going to be through M&A, and we've done that. So we've done that historically. We've done that -- we've been very active in the services space. I expect we will continue to be active in the services space as it relates to M&A, not for any other reason because a lot of the times when we buy these companies, we buy them for the capabilities they bring from a technology standpoint. And then what we do is we embed those capabilities into our network and drive the go-to-market and scale by virtue of what we can do from a Mastercard standpoint. And we've been very successful in being able to do that. And that's kind of the playbook we're going to follow on a going forward basis as well. That doesn't mean we'll exclusively do acquisitions only in services. We will selectively look at opportunities across the other 2 areas of growth, which is commercial and new payment flows as well as in consumer payments. But the philosophy is very much around can we do this internally or not? Or is it better for us to buy and can we get faster to market with the buy opportunity, and that's what we're doing. We have the balance sheet capacity. We think it's the right thing to do. We have to be smart about not overpaying for them. The thing which I worry most about is when we make acquisitions, we've got to be clear and very open-eyed about the fact that we want to integrate them and integrate them well. And number two, that we have to realize the synergies we're talking about. Because you will invariably end up paying fair value and some for the acquisition as it stands in order to drive real shareholder value creation, we've got to deliver on the synergies. That's what we're going to do.

Okay. I think we only have time for about 1 more minute. So maybe a quick one on crypto currencies. I mean just given how topical it is of late. If you could just touch on how Mastercard thinks about digital currencies, the underlying blockchain technology and strategically, how you think you're positioned for it?

Look, I think this is a very active space. It's one we've been very involved with. And we certainly see crypto as something which we've engaged in from a card network standpoint, and you're aware about this. We play as the on-ramp, we play as the off-ramp. Things you're familiar with. We see the volume benefits of that come through on the card side as people want to buy crypto, they use card-based products as they want to actually encash their crypto into fiat, they'll again use either our card-based products or Mastercard Move, which is our other way to actually offboard crypto into fiats. But beyond crypto, there is the stablecoin space, and then there is the work we're doing around tokenized deposits and the work we're doing across our MTN network, all of which, again, is for a much longer discussion, Darrin, but suffice it to say what we're doing from a stablecoin and crypto standpoint is we're not only dipping our toe in the water, but we're playing a fairly active role because we feel like there's a future to be had here, particularly as it relates to B2B payments. And B2B payments in domestic arena, but certainly in the cross-border arena as well. And we'll continue to be active in that space.

Great. Great. Maybe we have time for one question from the audience, if anyone has or? All right, maybe we have one right here in the middle.

How would Mastercard potentially approach monetizing stablecoins in the next 3 to 5 years. Is that largely an internal build? Or are you actively contemplating some kind of tuck-in acquisitions in the way Stripe, Broadridge and all that. So just give us a sense of how would you go about it?

Look, I think it's going to be a combination of organic and inorganic is the way we kind of think about it. We're going to be very deliberate in terms of what role we want to play in the stablecoin universe. I think there's a level of what I would call services we can deliver to the stablecoin universe, right, which we -- take something like Crypto Credential, right? This is something which we kind of talk about where as you have multiple stablecoin providers, you have to have authentication as it relates to allow for not only the closed-loop environment in which they currently work but to allow for interoperability to take place. And I think Mastercard to play a role in that. How we do it could be a combination through both organic and inorganic as part of the playbook going forward. But I guess I'll say, stay tuned. We're working through that right now. Right now, we're very actively focused on the organic piece.

Great. Sachin, thank you so much for joining us. You're looking well, and it's really great to have you with us here, even virtually, I appreciate it.

Always good to see you. Thanks, everyone. I appreciate it.

All right, thanks guys.

Take care.