Minto Apartment Real Estate Investment Trust (MIUN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

November 9, 2022

Toronto Stock Exchange CA Real Estate Residential REITs earnings 59 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

Operator

operator
#1

Good morning. My name is Pam, and I will be your conference coordinator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to the Minto Apartment REIT 2022 Third Quarter Financial Results Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Before we begin, I would like to remind listeners that certain statements about future events made on this conference call are forward-looking in nature. Any such information is subject to risks, uncertainties and assumptions that can cause actual results to differ materially. Please refer to the cautionary statements on forward-looking information in the REIT's news release and MD&A dated November 8, 2022, for more information. During the call, management will also reference certain non-IFRS financial measures. Although the REIT believes these measures provide useful supplemental information about its financial performance, they're not recognized measures and do not have standardized meaning under IFRS. Please see the REIT's MD&A for additional information regarding non-IFRS financial measures, including reconciliations to the nearest IFRS measures. Thank you. Mr. Waters, you may begin your conference.

Michael Waters

executive
#2

Thank you, Pam, and good morning, everyone. I'm Michael Waters, Chief Executive Officer of Minto Apartment REIT. I'm joined on the call today by Julie Morin, our Chief Financial Officer; and Jonathan Li, our President and Chief Operating Officer. I'll begin the call by providing an overview of our third quarter results as well as other corporate developments. Julie will review our financial results in detail, and Jonathan will discuss our operating performance and growth initiatives. I'll conclude with our business outlook, and then we'll be pleased to take your questions. Our business momentum continued into a seasonally robust third quarter, and we delivered strong financial results. Like many REITs, our third quarter was relatively quiet from a transaction perspective, and our strong performance was a direct result of our talented operations team and our best-in-class urban portfolio. Our results were also supported by growing demand for urban rental housing, which is a result of rising interest rates, a growing housing affordability gap, increasing integration, strengthening rental demand from students and a noticeable return to downtown living. This was easily our best quarter since the onset of the pandemic. Average monthly rent for the same property portfolio increased 4.2% year-over-year to $1,720 per suite. Average occupancy increased to 96.2% compared to 92.9% in Q3 last year. We achieved that increase even though we significantly reduced leasing promotions due to rising demand. At the end of the quarter, occupancy was 97.4%. Year-over-year NOI for the same property portfolio increased by 13.3% and NOI margin for the same property portfolio improved by 200 basis points to 64.1%. We negotiated 574 new leases in the third quarter and achieved a gain of 14.5% over expiring rent. This was the highest quarterly gain the lease we've generated since the onset of the pandemic and the second highest in the history of the REIT. Market rents increased in all of our markets. We estimate that the embedded gain-to-lease potential in the portfolio increased to 12.1% at the end of Q3 or approximately $16 million on an annualized basis. That compares to 6.6% or $7.3 million a year ago. We generated AFFO growth in the quarter of 28.2% compared to Q3 last year. And AFFO per unit increased by 15.1% year-over-year or 10.2%, excluding the impact of a onetime insurance recovery received in the third quarter. We continue to make good progress in our repositioning program in the third quarter as well. We renovated 75 suites, generating an average annualized return on investment of 9.4%. These low-risk investments improve asset quality, reduce repair costs and drive strong growth in rental revenue. I have a few additional updates to go over on Slide 4. As we announced in September, Julie Morin will be transitioning back to the Minto Group as Chief Financial Officer following this reporting period. Edward Fu will take over as CFO of the REIT. Eddie is currently the REIT's Vice President of Finance and has done a terrific job in his role. He's been a valuable member of the Minto team for more than 8 years, and I'm confident that he is the right choice for CFO. Eddie, along with Jonathan Li, will be full-time employees of the REIT. And yesterday, we announced some more good news. As you probably saw in our news release, the Board of Trustees has approved a 3.2% increase in the REIT's monthly distribution. The annual distribution increase amounts to $0.015 per unit and will be payable beginning with the November distribution. The REIT has now increased distributions in each of the 4 years following its formation. This is another measured increase that highlights our cause of financial performance and our confidence in our growth strategy and business outlook. It's important to note that while regularly increasing distribution is a priority for the REIT, we're also committed to maintaining a strong balance sheet and conservative AFFO payout ratio. Finally, in October, we released the REIT's 2021 ESG report, which included the results from our 2022 Global Real Estate Sustainability Benchmark, or GRESB, assessment. We're proud of the overall results. Our GRESB score was 80, an increase of 10 points over the prior year score and places us in the top quartile among 16 North American peers. In addition, the REIT received a score of 93 and a Level A rank in the GRESB Public Disclosure evaluation, ranking first out of ten in its comparison group. These results demonstrate our ongoing commitment to ESG initiatives. Julie will speak more of this shortly. Overall, we're very pleased with the quarter and believe that we're in a strong competitive position as market conditions continue to strengthen. In addition, we're working hard on a number of initiatives to drive value for unitholders, including achieving operational efficiencies, refinancing variable rate and mortgages to mitigate interest rate volatility, continuing to execute on our existing developments, fulfilling our convertible development loan commitments and advancing repositioning projects. We're confident that our strategy will drive continued growth in revenue, NOI and AFFO per unit despite the current elevated interest rate environment and inflation. I'd now like to invite Julie Morin to discuss our third quarter financial and operating performance in greater detail. Julie?

Julie Morin;Chief Financial Officer

executive
#3

Thank you, Michael. Turning to Slide 5. We reported same-property portfolio revenue of $34.3 million in Q3 2022, an increase of 9.8% compared to $31.2 million in Q3 last year. The increase was mainly due to higher occupancy, higher average rents and reduced amortization of promotions. Total portfolio revenue was $37.8 million, a year-over-year increase of 21.1%, reflecting higher rents and occupancy, reduced amortization of promotions and the 3 property acquisitions completed subsequent to Q3 last year, with Hill Park in Montreal, Niagara West in Toronto and The International in Calgary. Same-property portfolio NOI in the third quarter was $22 million or 64.1% of revenue, an increase of 13.3% from $19.4 million or 62.1% of revenue in Q3 last year. Total NOI was $24.2 million or 64% of revenue, an increase of 24.8% from last year. The higher NOI this year mainly reflected increased revenue, partially offset by higher operating expenses. FFO in Q3 2022 increased 25.7% year-over-year to $15.7 million compared to $12.5 million in Q3 2021, mainly due to the positive NOI variance. AFFO increased 28.2%, $14 million or $0.212 per unit from $10.9 million or $0.184 per unit last year. Higher AFFO mainly reflected a higher FFO, partially offset by an increase in the maintenance capital expenditure reserve from the 3 properties acquired subsequent to Q3 2021. And as Michael noted earlier, AFFO per unit increased 10.2% year-over-year after excluding the impact of a onetime insurance recovery. The AFFO payout ratio was 55.9% compared to 61.7% in Q3 last year. Average monthly rent per unfurnished occupied suite in Q3 2022 was $1,720 for the same property portfolio and $1,714 for the total portfolio, representing increases of 4.2% and 3.8%, respectively from last year. Average occupancy was 96.3% for the same property portfolio and 96.2% for the total portfolio. These represented significant improvements from 92.9% in Q3 2021. I'll now turn it over to Jonathan Li to review our operating performance and growth initiatives. Jonathan?

Jonathan Li

executive
#4

Thank you, Julie. I'll start with average monthly rent and gain-to-lease on Slide 2. You can see the positive upward trend in both leasing gains and average monthly rent on the upper chart. Average monthly rent surpassed $1,700 in Q3 2022 and has increased more than 20% since the formation of the REIT. Gain-to-lease was negatively impacted by the onset of the pandemic in the spring of 2020. Our realized gain-to-lease continues to improve as rental market dynamics continue to be favorable, with realized gains of 14.5%, marking the fourth sequential quarterly improvement, which is notable in a seasonal business. On the lower chart, we break out rent by geography. Despite recent market rent increases, our rental pricing remains a very attractive alternative compared to renting a condo, buying a new home or owning an existing home with a variable rate mortgage. For example, in Toronto, our rental rate per square foot is $2.62, which is 25% lower than renting a condo based on market data from Urbanation. In addition, the carrying cost of a $500,000 mortgage would be approximately $2,900 per month using a 5% interest rate and a 25-year amortization. I'll now dig into the gain-to-lease performance in greater detail on Slide 7. Beginning with the upper chart, which breaks down our realized gains in the third quarter, we signed 574 new leases in the quarter following REIT turnover, up from 555 new leases in Q3 last year. We generated double-digit gain-to-lease in all of our markets, including an impressive 15.5% gain-to-lease in Toronto. The average rent on new leases increased by 14.5% from $1,675 to $1,918. This was the second largest quarterly gain in the REIT's history and it resulted in an annualized incremental revenue gain of approximately $1.4 million. Turning to the embedded rent portfolio gain-to-lease potential on the lower chart, we believe we can generate approximately $16 million of annualized incremental revenue by bringing rents to market levels, representing potential gain-to-lease of 12.1%. By comparison, we estimate gain-to-lease potential of $6.6 million or 7.3% at the end of Q3 2021. I'd now like to review occupancy on Slide 8. As rental demand has improved over the last 12 months, our move-ins has exceeded move-outs contributing to higher occupancy. We had 691 move-ins during the third quarter compared to 562 move-outs, a net increase of 129%. Over the last 4 quarters, there was an increase of net move-ins of 302 despite significantly reducing the use of discounted promotions, which were an important tool to drive occupancy during the pandemic when occupancy was lower. Turnover in Q3 was consistent with our turnover in Q2. However, we do expect a slight slowdown in turnover going forward as the gap between sitting rents and market rents widened as well as due to seasonality. Moving to Slide 9. I want to review our Furnished Suites portfolio performance. Reduced business travel during the pandemic severely impacted demand for the furnished suites, but as travel restrictions were removed and demand from corporate users and the film industry recovered, furnished suite demand rebounded as well. In the third quarter, average monthly rent was $5,261, an increase of more than 30% from Q3 last year, and occupancy was 91.9%, an increase of 560 basis points from Q3 2021. Our furnished suite count now stands at 189 suites, a reduction of 23% from Q3 last year and is close to our strategy target. We are very pleased with the strong performance of our furnished suite offering in Q3. However, it is important to note that Q4 is seasonally a slower quarter for furnish suite. Slide 10 breaks down our quarterly operating expenses for both the Same Property Portfolio and the total portfolio. Property operating costs in the third quarter increased due to higher labor costs, fueling staffing vacancies and higher insurance costs. We are working hard to minimize operating costs, which are rising industry-wide in the current environment of high inflation. Property taxes for the Same Property Portfolio increased marginally compared to Q3 last year, reflecting higher assessments in rate. Large percentage increase in utilities expenses was mainly attributable to a substantial increase in natural gas rates, recognizing that typically our natural gas costs represents a smaller portion of our overall cost structure in the third quarter. On Slide 11, you'll find a summary of our repositioning activities. We renovate at the moment a total of 75 suites in the third quarter or 56 at the REIT's proportionate share at an average cost of approximately $55,000 per suite. The average annual rental increase following repositioning was $5,150 per suite or $370 per month, which generated a simple return on investment of 9.4%. We have 2,024 remaining suites to reposition under the current program. We expect to reposition approximately 40 to 50 in the fourth quarter, subject to turnover. We repositioned a total of 218 suites in the first 9 months of the year. On Slide 12, we have 8 projects in our pipeline, 5 of which are in active development and one stabilized. 5 of them are convertible development loan projects that include exclusive purchase options upon stabilization and 3, our direct investments in properties we own. These projects are located in our target markets and have the potential to increase the REIT suite count by over 2,300 suites or 28% from our current level. On Slide 13, 14, you can see recent photos of each of the projects in active development, and we'll talk about a few of them. Beginning with Fifth and Bank, this mixed-use residential and retail property in Ottawa's part of the Glebe neighborhood is stabilized. It is currently 100% leased and is not subject to rent control. Minto Group has agreed to extend the REIT's option to purchase the property to June 30, 2023, and extend the maturity of the convertible development loan to July 31, 2023. At this time, the REIT has not yet made a decision regarding the exercise of the purchase option and any decision will be based on market conditions and other factors at that time. Lonsdale Square in North Vancouver has been topped off and is nearing completion. Market rents in the North Vancouver north continued to increase with rental buildings in the area, achieving rents of approximately $5 per square foot. Land leasing of the 113 suites is expected to begin in the first quarter of 2023. Once stabilized, the REIT will have the option to purchase the project at a 5% discount to appraise value. Stabilization is expected to occur in Q4 of 2023. Finally, at our Richgrove property in Toronto, we are very proud to be building 100 affordable suite as part of this 225-suite offering with the help of our federal and municipal partners. This is an exciting example of developing new affordable housing for the betterment of our local community. We anticipate stabilization in the second quarter of 2026. I'll now turn it over to Julie to review our debt financing and liquidity.

Julie Morin;Chief Financial Officer

executive
#5

Thanks, Jon. Turning to Slide 15. We are committed to maintaining a conservative leverage ratio and a balanced debt maturity schedule. As the chart shows, debt maturities are highly manageable through 2027. As of September 30, 2022, the weighted average term to maturity on our fixed rate debt was 4.48 years with a weighted average interest rate of 2.9%. Approximately, 78% of our debt with fixed rate and 65% with CMHC-insured lower cost debt. I also want to note that we assumed approximately $108 million of floating rate loans on the acquisitions of Niagara West and The International in the second quarter of this year. We are actively pursuing long-term CMHC-insured financing to refinance these properties with funding expected before year-end. Closing these loans would increase proportion of fixed rate debt to 88% and the amount insured by CMHC would increase to 72%. Total liquidity was approximately $145 million at the end of September 2022, and Debt-to-Gross Book Value was 39.9%. Regarding our capital recycling initiatives, the sale of our Edmonton portfolio continues to progress, and we hope to provide an update next quarter. Moving to Slide 16. We have now owned Niagara West and The International for slightly more than 6 months. Both properties are performing very well for the REIT. Occupancy at Niagara West and downtown Toronto increased to 98% at the end of September from 95.6% at the end of June, and asking rental rates have increased 5.5% since the acquisition in late April. These figures highlight the ongoing return to downtown living as the negative impact of the pandemic disease. It is a very similar story at The International in downtown Calgary. Occupancy was also 98% at the end of the third quarter and asking rental rates have increased 4.9% since the acquisition closed in early May. Turning to Slide 17, you'll find some highlights from our ESG report, which we released last month. Firstly, we reduced energy consumption by 11% and carbon emissions by 13% from the 2019 benchmark levels. Secondly, 50% of the individual annual bonus compensation is tied to performance against ESG adjusted. Thirdly, we began construction on 100 affordable suites of the rich growth property with support from the city of Toronto. And lastly, we completed our first inaugural Diversity and Inclusion survey. The full report is available on our website, and I encourage you to read it. We are proud of the progress we have made on ESG initiatives to date and are committed to achieving greater performance in the months and years ahead. I'll now turn it back over to Michael.

Michael Waters

executive
#6

Thanks, Julie. I'll conclude with our business outlook on Slide 18 before we take your questions. We're pleased with the steady improvement in the REIT's financial performance over the course of 2022. We've capitalized on the strengthening industry fundamentals. They include the rising cost of homeownership, Canada's expansive immigration policy and inelastic housing supplies. It's just not keeping up with demand. The affordability gap between owning and renting a home increased substantially as housing prices remain high and mortgage rates have increased sharply. With regards to immigration, Canada has set an ambitious target to add 500,000 permanent residents per year by 2025. These people will need places to live and rental housing is necessary to meet that demand. Over the last year, we've seen downtown environments come alive again as students have returned to in-person learning and restaurant, sporting events and cultural attractions have drawn big crowds. Downtown living and renting is once again highly attractive. Finally, I want to note that strong commodity prices have solidified the rental market conditions in Alberta, which lagged our other markets over the last few years. Put together, we believe the outlook for the Canadian urban rental market will remain strong for the foreseeable future, especially if you consider that the multi-family sector has historically performed well during a recessionary period due to the short-term nature of our leases. To achieve long-term success, we remain focused on these 5 key strategies: growing NOI by maximizing revenue, optimizing occupancy, creating value from suite repositioning and minimizing operating expenses. Strategic allocation of capital, which may include capital recycling opportunities, accretive investments in deleveraging, best-in-class execution of our existing intensification development pipeline in order to further upgrade our portfolio, third-party acquisition or development opportunities, which will be market dependent, and finally, prudent balance sheet and liquidity management. Regardless of the short-term capital markets volatility, the key elements of our strategy have not changed. We're confident that by sticking to them, we will deliver strong returns to unitholders as the fundamentals of the apartment sector remains strong. That concludes our presentation this morning. Julie, John and I would now be pleased to answer any questions you may have. Pam?

Operator

operator
#7

[Operator Instructions] Your first question comes from Sairam Srinivas with Cormark Securities.

Sairam Srinivas

analyst
#8

Julie, Jon and Michael, congrats on a great quarter. Just looking at the occupancy numbers. Obviously, this quarter saw a huge amount of occupancy gains coming in. I was wondering if you guys could kind of give us some color on the breakup of these occupancy gains across markets and there are some markets where you saw a better performance related to others?

Jonathan Li

executive
#9

It's Jon. Thanks for the question. Yes, the occupancy, we experienced a stronger occupancy, both in Toronto and Ottawa. Both of those are above 98%. Calgary is in more in the mid-90s, kind of 96% or so. And where we see the biggest opportunity for increasing our occupancy is actually in Montreal, where we're just a tick over 93%, which we're quite happy with because we've been kind of bouncing along between 89% and 91% since the onset of the pandemic. And so it's nice to see the hard work of our operations team starting to bear a little bit of fruit in Montreal with our occupancy kind of ticked up -- broke through 93% last quarter.

Sairam Srinivas

analyst
#10

Just probably transitioning from there into the gain-on-lease potential. I think across every other market, we saw a huge gain, a material gain in that potential, except for Montreal, where I think that number has come down a bit quarter-on-quarter from Q2. Can you just speak about the fundamentals there and the opportunities you're seeing there from a rental perspective?

Jonathan Li

executive
#11

For Montreal, you're saying, Sai?

Sairam Srinivas

analyst
#12

Yes, that's right.

Jonathan Li

executive
#13

Yes. Look, in Montreal, I think what we've experienced, and I think you saw this when you were on our property tour. The cost for us to turn the suites has been a little bit higher than other places, the time it's taken us to turn the suites is a little bit longer. So market rents are increasing in Montreal. I would say the pace at which is slightly less than others, but when there's double-digit potential for gain-to-lease in any market, I think that's quite attractive and Montreal is still there for us.

Sairam Srinivas

analyst
#14

And finally, Michael, on the outlook, you mentioned capital recycling opportunities as one of the avenues for adding value. Just wondering if you guys have any targets on that sort of any opportunity you see on that side?

Michael Waters

executive
#15

Well, I think you're talking about the Edmonton portfolio that we talked about. Is that where…

Sairam Srinivas

analyst
#16

Yes.

Michael Waters

executive
#17

So I mean, we're continuing to work that process. We have nothing that we can announce at this point, but we're optimistic that we'll be able to share some news shortly.

Operator

operator
#18

Your next question comes from Jonathan Kelcher with TD Securities.

Jonathan Kelcher

analyst
#19

Just continuing on the operation side. Your period-end occupancy was 97.4%. Is that holding through Q4 or do you think we'll see a seasonal dip?

Jonathan Li

executive
#20

I think as the market continues to tighten, we are starting to see a little bit more of a reversion back to what I'd call normal seasonality for this sector. October was relatively consistent with September, we went down about 1 basis point in terms of occupancy. The weather in October was pretty warm up until right now, actually, as we kind of look at our office. It's pretty beautiful outside. And so we're hopeful that the leasing season has extended a little bit. But look, there we are facing some headwinds overall in Q4. In terms of our utility costs, it's a tough comp in Q4 for us, right, because the rates for natural gas, in particular, in Q4 2021 were significantly lower because that was kind of pre-Ukraine war. So we're -- that's a tougher comp for us where the rates from trough to peak are kind of 2 to 3x. So even if our usage is the same, it's going to be pretty elevated. But in terms of occupancy, we're pretty happy with our performance in October.

Jonathan Kelcher

analyst
#21

And then on the Fifth and Bank loan that got extended, is that that's on -- assuming that's on the same terms as previous?

Jonathan Li

executive
#22

That's correct.

Jonathan Kelcher

analyst
#23

And then on capital recycling, you did take a small little fair value decline this quarter. Was that the Edmonton portfolio changed at all?

Julie Morin;Chief Financial Officer

executive
#24

No, it didn't. So no change in Alberta, whatsoever. It was just a few properties in Ottawa and Toronto.

Jonathan Kelcher

analyst
#25

And then beyond the Edmonton portfolio, are there any other properties that you might be thinking of selling?

Michael Waters

executive
#26

What I'd say is this is we take a very active portfolio management sort of stance. And so we're constantly evaluating our portfolio for opportunities. As well, when we think about our pipeline of deals that we have outside the REIT looking for opportunities to upgrade the portfolio. And so I would say there are no sacred cows. We would look at our entire portfolio from a forecast in terms of the performance of each asset and their fit with our strategy. And so I would say that we take a very expansive view, Jonathan, on sort of potential candidates for capital recycling, particularly if we think that we can make better use of the capital in other investments.

Jonathan Li

executive
#27

Just to layer on to that, if we can potentially reduce exposure to older rent controlled assets and take that money and invest it into new non-rent controlled assets. I mean, I think that would be for us a transaction that makes sense.

Operator

operator
#28

Your next question comes from Mike Markidis with BMO Capital Markets.

Michael Markidis

analyst
#29

Just on the refi that you expect to do on Niagara West and The International. I know you're going to -- you're fixing the term. Are you going to pull out any incremental capital on that transaction?

Julie Morin;Chief Financial Officer

executive
#30

No, we're not.

Michael Markidis

analyst
#31

In Alberta, Jon, I think you highlighted the strong rent spreads across the portfolio, but good to see the new leasing spreads in Alberta be in that mid-teen range. Curious if you could give us some commentary in terms of what you guys are seeing on the renewal side since it's not subject to rent control?

Jonathan Li

executive
#32

Yes. I mean, look, it's broad strength across the portfolio. We're seeing particular strength in The International. I think as Julie highlighted, we've pretty much eliminated promo from most everything. I think there's a touch -- there's a little bit of competing products going around The Quarters and The Laurier. And so we're keeping a very close eye on that. But it's pretty consistent with the rest of our portfolio in terms of just broad market strength with rents up 5% since we acquired The International, in particular.

Michael Markidis

analyst
#33

But I mean, just in terms of the renewals, like broadly speaking, for Alberta, would you guys be doing something above, say, the 1.2 or 1 point what you're getting in Ontario just due to the limit?

Jonathan Li

executive
#34

Yes. I mean, we're seeing just bringing everyone up to market rents with our promo.

Michael Markidis

analyst
#35

And then last question for me before I turn it back. Just on the convertible development loan program, is the 5% discount and the value that you capture, is it a one way or if in the event that you pass on a project or gets recapitalized in another manner, do you still capture the 5% value creation on that?

Michael Waters

executive
#36

So are you asking about the instance where the REIT would waive on its ROFO right?

Michael Markidis

analyst
#37

Yes.

Michael Waters

executive
#38

We haven't encountered that situation, but when the REIT has waived on deals, particularly in the last -- that instance has occurred in the last 12 months, let's say, when we've been more restricted in our ability to access the capital markets, MPI has pursued some deals with the concurrence and approval of the independent trustees on the REIT board. And what we've undertaken, I would say, is the best effort sort of approach, whereby when market conditions improve and our cost of capital returns to where we think it should be, that MPI will use its best efforts to bring those investment opportunities back to the REIT. Whether that would come in the form of a CDL investment, which is possible because some of those opportunities are in the predevelopment stage, and so there would be ample opportunity for the REIT to participate in the development, which is obviously first prize for the REIT because the CDL structure allows the REIT to garner the vast majority of the economics from development and is ring-fenced from most of the risk in terms of cost overrun schedules risk, lease-up risk, those risks all remain with MPI. So we're looking for opportunities to do that, Mike, if the capital market conditions improve and we see our cost of capital come back down to sort of where it should be.

Michael Markidis

analyst
#39

I guess what I was asking more specifically was just in the event. I know you had an extension on Fifth and Bank until mid-2023. But in the event that the REIT wasn't able to exercise its discount purchase option once the property hit stabilization. That 5% value capture on purchase, is that something that the REIT is still entitled to if the property doesn't sell or recapitalize in a different manner?

Michael Waters

executive
#40

No. I mean, the purchase discount is attached to -- it's part of the CDL instrument. So if the CDL was to mature and it was to be repaid that the option goes along with it, unfortunately.

Operator

operator
#41

Your next question comes from Johann Rodrigues with Industrial Alliance.

Johann Rodrigues

analyst
#42

Given that it's stabilized, do you have a rough sense of what the value of Fifth and Bank would be?

Michael Waters

executive
#43

It would be in dollar terms in the high 90s. And then we would apply our 5% purchase discount to that. We're seeing cap rates holding pretty steady. We've seen 5 or 7 transactions, I would say of urban multi-family that would suggest cap rates that are in the low 3s or high 2s. We've been, I think, conservative in assuming a higher cap rate for this asset but that's kind of the rough order of magnitude.

Johann Rodrigues

analyst
#44

And should we take it that the extension and the delay in deciding whether they will pull the trigger on that? Is that due to availability of capital/cost of the capital? Or does it have anything to do with where the pro forma has landed or anything like that, the actual return on the asset?

Michael Waters

executive
#45

No, I mean, I think that the assets leased up well. We've leased at rates in excess of our underwriting pro forma. We're very happy with the performance of that asset. It is because it was completed after November 2018, it's not subject to the rent control provisions. It's absolutely loaded with all the latest proptech and amenities. And it's in a submarket where there's probably less than 1% vacancy. So it's a fantastic asset. It's an asset we want to put in the REIT. We are sensitive to some of the feedback that we got in the spring with the timing of The International and 39 Niagara transaction. And obviously, sensitive to where our stock trading right now, we're kind of 45% discount to NAV. So we took a lot of feedback from investors, very sensitive to the fact that this is a related party transaction, wanting to be absolutely transparent and bend over backwards to ensure that the minority unitholders are treated fairly. And so it was a very quick discussion with the MPI Board to get them to extend for another 6 months. Jon, I don't know if you'd add anything to that.

Jonathan Li

executive
#46

I mean, the only thing I would add is that, like, we're highly focused on our cash flow per unit performance and our current cost of debt right now on our floating. I mean, this is to your point earlier, if you call this a $100 million asset, we probably only need another less than $20 million of incremental capital because of the $30 million that's already outstanding on the CDL. So even if you finance this thing with 100% debt, the cost of debt would exceed the purchase cap rates. And that math just is very difficult for us to make work in the current market. So we're not beholden to any specific timing, thanks to the extension other than when this extension runs out, but we're just trying to be prudent with our capital.

Johann Rodrigues

analyst
#47

Should we take it that if you guys are able to sell some of the Edmonton properties that you might pull the trigger on, if you make?

Jonathan Li

executive
#48

It's possible. I mean, I don't know if the time is going to line up. At the end of the day, if we have excess capital, we're going to look at high-grading the portfolio or we're going to look at paying down debt. We're going to look at NCIB. We're going to look at everything that's on the table and kind of make the appropriate decision at that time.

Johann Rodrigues

analyst
#49

And last question. You have to take down 100% of it or can you split it with and bring in a partner or have MPI retain half of it?

Michael Waters

executive
#50

Now the way its document is written, it's 100% transaction, but it's something that we've talked about internally, whether we could work with some of our existing relationships. We have a fairly good rolodex of institutional partners. And so that is a scenario that we've evaluated as well. But no firm thoughts or plans on that at this stage.

Jonathan Li

executive
#51

I mean, we want this asset. We want 100% of it. This is a fantastic asset. So to the extent we can do that, then I think we would. To the extent we would lose it, and we're -- we need to consider other alternatives, obviously, we would be open to that too.

Johann Rodrigues

analyst
#52

And then just switching last question. You keep reducing the furnished suite count in the portfolio each quarter. Do you know roughly where you see that stabilizing long-term?

Jonathan Li

executive
#53

Yes, we're pretty much there. I think we have one suite left in 150 Roehampton that will be done by the end of the year. And so we're going to be at that 18%. Somewhere between 186, 188 furnished suites, and it's going to be only in those 2 buildings, one80five lying as well as 61 Yorkville.

Michael Waters

executive
#54

For the medium-term, we couldn't add more inventory at those properties or others. But at this stage, we don't have any plans to do so.

Operator

operator
#55

Your next question comes from Kyle Stanley with Desjardins.

Kyle Stanley

analyst
#56

Just kind of looking at the OpEx side of things and more specifically, nat gas, I mean, your nat gas was up 70% year-over-year in the third quarter. And while understanding, and I think you highlighted that nat gas represents a small part of the cost structure in those -- or summer months, sorry. I'm just wondering your thoughts on how that trend looks in the fourth quarter and first quarter? I think, Jon, you made some mention, but does that 70% kind of year-over-year growth number? What do you think about that?

Julie Morin;Chief Financial Officer

executive
#57

I think over 2, 3 you're likely going to see additional consumption. So that number is likely going to be higher going into Q4. As it relates to utilities, I think from a staffing cost perspective, we're still seeing cost creep on that side. So you're likely seeing a bit of an increase there as well.

Kyle Stanley

analyst
#58

And just one more for me and then this is for Michael. Just could you comment on any recent discussions you've had with the federal government just regarding the review of the multi-family retaxation status and affordable housing, I guess, more generally?

Michael Waters

executive
#59

Yes. We've been working, I think, as you know, with our closest peers, Killam, CAPREIT, Boardwalk and InterRent. And then more broadly with a larger list of, I'll say, alternative housing providers in the REIT space and some large privates. And then broadly, with industry groups like purple, CFAA and REALPAC in a coordinated fashion to educate policymakers and, I'll say, influencers in the policy space. And both in the political realm, folks who are in a cabinet-level positions, elected members of parliament. But also not just within the liberal government, but also members of the opposition, the NDP and the conservative party as well. I'd say those conversations have been productive. We found that our counterparts have been open to, I think, a good exchange of ideas and some fruitful discussions as well as it relates to policy alternatives. So I think it's too early to comment on where the outcome of those conversations might happen. But I'm optimistic that the parties working together will find some solutions to improve the housing affordability crisis that we have in this country. I mean, it's notable that we saw in the 12 months ended, the end of June using StatCan figures, Canada's population surging by 700,000 people. And also notable that recently in the last week, we've seen the federal government raise our immigration targets yet higher to 0.5 million people ultimately in the next 3 years or in the 3 years out. So that's -- those are substantial indicators of housing demand, and we know as an industry, our housing supply curve is very inelastic and that we in the REIT space, and I speak about my peers as being a big part of that. And you've heard earlier today in calls with Killam and Cap, the roles they see playing on that. And certainly, Minto, I think, for sure, in that space as well that we can be part of the solution. And what I'd like to see is the conversation has shifted at the government level to one of incentives to bringing new supply online. And that's happened at both the provincial level with the Ontario government's recent announcements on land planning and affordable housing, but also at the federal level. So I think we're going to have to wait and see at the federal level how this plays out. I think everyone in the summer was still hoping maybe for some clarity in the fall economic statement, I think it's taken longer for the government. This file is tremendously complex. They have limited bandwidth. They're dealing with multiple big files, not just housing. And so I expect it may not be until the budget time frame that we see a little bit more clarity. But I like to say I'm optimistic.

Kyle Stanley

analyst
#60

Good to hear the level of optimism there. And hopefully, we do get a positive outcome and lift the overhang that's been over the sector for a little while.

Operator

operator
#61

[Operator Instructions] Your next question comes from Jimmy Shan with RBC Capital Markets.

Khing Shan

analyst
#62

Just a couple of questions from me. So first on the turnover rate trends. I know the expectation is that they will continue to go to tick down. Kind of where do you see that going? Where do you see that bottoming out? And then secondly, maybe putting your into private add-on, can you just talk generally about kind of what you're seeing in the new condo sales development market and how that might impact the rental business over the next few years?

Jonathan Li

executive
#63

Hey Jimmy, it's Jon. I'll take the first one, and then I'll hand it to Mike for the second one. Look, on turnover, as we said in the opening comments, the actual turnover we experienced in Q3 was very similar, virtually unchanged from the turnover we experienced in Q2. We do expect turnover to increase which is seasonality as well as the strengthening and the tightening of the rental market. I think 2 things that will moderate the turnover for us. Number one, we have a pretty -- 16% of our portfolio is non-rent control. So that's good. And the second thing is that there's a couple of very large buildings that a year ago had a lot of promotion in those rents and those leases are turning over. And as those leases turn over, it's quite a large gap between what they're paying and what market rents are. And so we're seeing sort of a normal natural turnover in those leases as well. And so just to give you, I guess, I think our portfolio is something like mid-20s in terms of turnover. I think we're expecting it to be kind of low 20s turnover to just give you a little bit of that. I may have said turnover decrease or increase by accident, I mean decrease.

Michael Waters

executive
#64

And on the condo side, I'm speaking specifically at the new condo supply, so not speaking about resale. But what we've seen, I'll say, broadly across the country, but if we want to look at, let's say, Corona as a specific instance, we have seen very significant declines in sales of new homes broadly, but condos in particular. I mean, you could look at Altus reports, you could look at Urbanation reporting in and what we're seeing our volumes of new condo sales dropping 80% and 90% year-over-year on a monthly basis. So that's a function of higher interest rates and challenges for buyers to qualify. And so when you've seen this reported by Urbanation and others, that many of condos that were planned for launch this year have been pulled by developers, who are looking at market conditions closely, looking at reception to their offerings and opting, I think, to pull deals. So the implication for the industry is that obviously, fewer condos will proceed to that presale point. Condos that are already in presales may not achieve their presale threshold they require for financing. Potentially, we could see projects delayed and/or canceled and go back on the shelf as developers wait for market conditions to improve. I think the implication for the rental housing is that, obviously, that source of new competing supply will be somewhat constricted until we see market conditions improve for developers, and I think that's largely going to be a function of mortgage rates. And right now, we're seeing 5-year fixed rates for preferred customers in the high 4s and low 5s. And then, of course, customers are having to qualify with a 200 basis point premium to that. So it's probably going to restrict some new supply coming online, frankly. And that's just unfortunately the reality, I think, for renters right now is that there's probably going to be fewer options for them in the near-term until we get some clarity around mortgage rates coming down.

Khing Shan

analyst
#65

Are you seeing some of that supply otherwise, it would have been condo shifting to purpose-built rental? I assume no, but I wonder if there's any sign of something like that happening?

Michael Waters

executive
#66

Unfortunately, I'm not seeing that yet on a large scale. I suspect there may be individual projects that might shift that way. But the rental development pro forma and the condo pro forma share a lot of similarity. So rising short-term borrowing rates for construction financing, construction costs are soaring. And the slowdown in the homebuilding industry is going to impact construction pricing first on the low-rise wood frame trade because those are short cycle time projects. The concrete construction, the impact of lower construction volumes, I suspect, on pricing. Construction pricing is probably going to take quite a bit longer to filter through, partly that a lot of the competing demands on construction trades and suppliers is not just residential high-rise construction. It's infrastructure, it's office, it's industrial. Those trades have other calls for what they do. And so what we're seeing is rental pro formas are under pressure in much the same way that condo pro formas are. So I haven't seen a big shift. Now it will be interesting to see when in Ontario, some of the proposals put forward by the Ford government to favor the construction of affordable rental and rental period, whether that might start to have an impact. But I think it's too early to say because that -- those proposals were just released in the last couple of weeks. So that's my sense anyhow.

Operator

operator
#67

Your next question comes from Matt Kornack with National Bank Financial.

Matt Kornack

analyst
#68

I'll keep it quick with 2 quick ones here. Just with regards to the Niagara asset, can you give us a sense -- I mean, you bought it fairly recently, but the Toronto market has been on fire from what we've heard, just as to where maybe mark-to-market potential is, notwithstanding, obviously, you would have done leasing at market at the time that it was in lease-up, but just some thoughts there. And because it's non-rent-controlled, how do you think about passing through that on lease renewals?

Jonathan Li

executive
#69

I mean, you hit it on the head, I think, right? Like we're able to achieve market rents with no promotion in that market. So the mark-to-market is, every lease is pretty much at market, and we've seen market rents grow 5% since April.

Matt Kornack

analyst
#70

And were there -- in the process of lease-up for that, were there promotions given that would still kind of be outstanding relative to today, I guess?

Jonathan Li

executive
#71

Yes, for sure. And that's kind of what is generating some of our good financial performance, especially in that building is that I'll give you just one specific example about a suite on the eighth floor that it looks directly into a black wall. We were renting it for net effective 2 months of promotion 1.5 years ago for 1,600, and we rented it last month for 2,400, no promo. That's like one small example and a very attractive building in neighborhood just to give it to you there, but like that's what's happening in that building.

Michael Waters

executive
#72

Not just highlights, I think, Matt, why we were so keen on that acquisition. And so notwithstanding the timing not being ideal last March, but so focused on retaining that asset for the REIT rather than see it sold in the market because of exactly what Jonathan just pointed out. Its location and the fact that it's not subject to rent control allow us to adjust quickly as demand is surging.

Matt Kornack

analyst
#73

And I think everybody is surprised with how quickly things turned and yes, they've turned it to the positive. One quick just housekeeping type item. I just didn't -- for the insurance recovery of $594,000, is that in other income that's not in a line item that would go into NOI, is it?

Julie Morin;Chief Financial Officer

executive
#74

Yes, that's correct. Just other income, not NOI.

Operator

operator
#75

There are no further questions at this time, please proceed.

Michael Waters

executive
#76

That's great. I would like to -- before we conclude our call, put in a pitch, many of you may know that Jon Li and I are sleeping on the street, on Toronto's mean Street on the night of November 17. We're raising money for Covenant House, which is a cause an organization that provides housing, health care and other services for use who are at risk. It's a great cause. We've raised, I think, at this point in excess of $70,000 towards $100,000 goal. You all could be a big part of helping us hit our goals. So if you've given already, thank you so much. If you haven't yet, please consider doing so, a $1,000 goes a long way. It would house and feed 3 troubled and homeless teens for a month. So please do give some thought. I would also as well like to just thank Julie Morin. This is her last earnings call. And I think she and I have been working hard on this for going on 5 years now. And so it certainly is the end of an era with Julie stepping away. And so I'm very thankful for all of her hard work and energy and leadership that she brought to the REIT success over the last 5 years. So Julie, thank you very much.

Julie Morin;Chief Financial Officer

executive
#77

It's been fun.

Michael Waters

executive
#78

I can't believe you're saying that. Anyhow, thank you, everyone. That concludes our call this morning. Thank you very much for your interest in Minto Apartment REIT. We look forward to speaking with you again after we report our fourth quarter and year-end results next year. So have a great day. Thanks, everybody.

Operator

operator
#79

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes your conference call for today. We thank you for participating and ask that you please disconnect your lines. Have a great day.

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