ModivCare Inc. (MODVQ) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. My name is Cindy Hu, I'm an associate in the JPMorgan healthcare team. [Operator Instructions] With that, I'm pleased to introduce you to Dan Greenleaf, the CEO of ModivCare; and Heath Sampson, the CFO of ModivCare.

Well, good morning, everybody. And the folks at JPMorgan, thanks for having us. It's an honor and very much looking forward to sharing with all of you the, I think, tremendous progress we've made in the company over the last couple of years. So Zach, if you could go to the next slide. So this is -- just go back Zach, please. Go back, please. Again. Okay. So this is our, obviously, usual and customary forward-looking statements and our non-GAAP financial information disclosures. So I just -- again, I just want to highlight that. I know this is -- this can be a little bit perfunctory, but we need to have -- we need to mention that. So if we go to the next slide, Zach. So a little bit about ModivCare, and this has been a pretty significant transformation. I got here in December of '19. What was abundantly clear to me was that there was this tremendous channel into a very significant underserved membership population to the tune of somewhere between at that time 25 million to 30 million lives or 9% of the U.S. population. And what also became abundantly clear during this period of time was that there was a real opportunity to form a one-of-a-kind social terms of health company. And that's -- as we think about -- frankly, it's interesting. Scott Kern and I were at JPMorgan in January of 2020. And that really was, for us, was the catalyst for a lot of the decisions we made going forward, and to tune of we've done approximately 5 acquisitions over the course of about a year. And again, really, we're in the business of transforming the company. You could see that transformation from a revenue perspective. Clearly, you could see that transformation from an EBITDA perspective. But the other thing I also want to point out to all of you is that we built this company because what we believe it's -- while genetic code matters, ZIP code matters more. So genetic code matters, the ZIP code matters more. And what do I mean by that? Is that the key determinant of health outcomes is actually where you live. And so if you think about -- I've got a slide later in the presentation that shows kind of the clinical sight where there's been so much emphasis to the place, the emphasis on these other determinants of health outcomes, the emphasis wasn't as strong. The emphasis wasn't consolidated. And again, we were very fortunate going into this because we did have a transportation network that served 49 states and had 30 million lives. And so the question was, what do we do with this? And that's really been the journey of -- in our personal care business, we're now the #2 personal care company in the country. On remote monitoring, we're #2. And then we also launched a nutritional meal delivery offering. And we've partnered with a national organization on that front. And again, we feel like there's a significant unmet need in that area, and a highly fragmented market. And again, just a really good opportunity. And I would -- I really say that what, again, drove this was this unmet need. We've built -- as a result, we've built a platform company that's gone through a pretty radical transformation and is coming out the other side, I think, in a really, really good place. So with that, if you want to move to the next slide. So this underscores the ZIP code versus genetic code. And if you ask me, a lot of the stuff on the right side is all about genetic code, all this money that's been spent on genetic code, genetic code, genetic code. And then we know that in some markets, in one recently where you just go over one ZIP code and the life expected just 15 years less in that ZIP code than one that is adjacent to the other. So -- and what I would say is the clinical interventions are important, but they're not enough and in and of themselves is not working. And what we do know is that our members, our states, our payers and our case managers want them to stop shop in this area. And we are truly the first company to do this and are in an extremely unique position in part because if you look at our transportation business, about 85% of that has a capitated component. So we've been in risk relationship for a long time and are very well positioned as we move towards this one-stop shop as a company to rapidly move towards a value-based care offering. I will also point out on the technology enablement, we are dead serious about this folks. We've got 500 people in our technology team and across the world. And we are making the investments. So not only have we built this, what I would describe as this high-touch solution, we are backing it up and complementing it with a high-tech solution. And again, I don't know many other companies who have the opportunity to do something like this for 9% of the U.S. population. And again, we are extremely uniquely positioned to really do something very, very special here. So with that, if we want to move to the next slide. We made an announcement, I believe, it was yesterday, Heath, about the alignment. And this was something we always felt like this is a direction we were going to go and aligning ModivCare Home with our personal care business. Again, massive market, $55 billion growing to $100 billion. Remote monitoring business, which is roughly a $9 billion market, growing at 10%, but it's about 13% penetrated and with meal delivery. And the question is, well, why would you do that? We did it because this is what our case managers want. As you think about our relationship with the states and the payers, it is about getting access for our members. So it's, if you will, a hunting license. I don't like maybe that's not the right way to describe it, but I think it's descriptive. And what we're doing is because we have access in 49 states, we do have -- we've been credentialed for all intents and purposes to offer these services. And as we thought about the credentialing, what's next is that we needed to start providing a one-stop solution for our case managers. And we've done that now through ModivCare Home to personal care, remote monitoring and meal delivery. And also, again, I go back to our members. This is what our members want. Members want to deal with one company, our case managers want to deal with one company. And fortunately, we are extremely well positioned because I think we have best-in-class services, best-in-class products across all our home offerings. And then on mobility side, it's a $4 billion market growing to $14 billion. When I think about the opportunity to expand into Medicare Advantage, one of the beauties of our business is that it is 50% state, but it's also 50% payer. And there are 6 payers that we do extensive business with that represent 80% of that 50% on the payer side, but 5 of those 6 represent 80% of the Medicare Advantage lives. So it's a natural segue. And that relationship continues to expand across Medicaid and across Medicare Advantage. And again, very substantive business. We retained 100% of our contracts last year. The company historically has retained 90% since 2017. Many of these contracts go on and on. I mean, some have been around for almost 2 decades, just to kind of give you an order of the stickiness. So again, super excited about this. Jason Anderson is running our home. Jason came from the VRI marketplace. He is just -- he's the right guy here at the right time, and we are just super excited. On the mobility side, Heath Sampson is going to run that business. And again, he's been very close to it for quite some time. And again, we feel really good about how we're positioned there. So if you go to the next slide, please. This is a little bit about ModivCare Home and the evolution of ModivCare Home. And again, it highlights this case manager member aspect of it where we're going in and selling to one person, which is the case manager. We've got about 30 people in our sales teams, and we feel really good about how we built that out of -- about 15 or so came from the VRI acquisition, and we had built out about a team of 15. And you don't need a lot because it's -- there's a few people, a few organizations that are -- that control a lot of how the supportive care services are coordinated. So we feel very good. On the personal care side, we're in 7 states serving about 20,000 members, providing 30 million hours of care and #2 company in this space. What we do know in terms of retention and the growth of caregivers, it really boils down to providing them predictable hours. And with 30 million hours, you can imagine we're in a unique position to do that. The remote monitoring piece, it does include PERs, which is personal emergency response, which is I've fallen and can't get up for those who are in my vintage. And then we also have vitals monitoring. We also have medication management, and then it's really member -- unique member engagement solutions. So think about this a bit, we're working with a payer, and they say, we'd really like you to address a subset of our population. So let's say, they're diabetic. Well, we will put that member engagement solution on that. And it provides us, I think, a really unique aspect of this offering. And then meal delivery national partner, a $9 billion market, growing a $15 billion market. We're selling it into our existing payer relationships, which I've -- and state relationships, which I've already highlighted, highly fragmented market. I think there's opportunities to improve the quality. And again, we think we have the right partnership to do that. So the next slide. On the mobility side, I would -- the company -- this company has been around since 1996 or so. So there's a long standing relationship. And why does that matter? Well, one reason it matters is that these contracts are highly sticky. You look at the contract retention. The second reason it matters is because size is important. Scope is important, and building out a network of approximately 6,000 transportation providers takes a long time. The other thing I'd like to point out about this is that -- and I mentioned our technologies. When I got here, I felt like the real Achilles' heel of this entity was its technology. And the company hadn't modernized. The company hadn't automated. We spent the better part of 2 years solving for that. And frankly, I just went over my CIOs, MBOs over the last week in a Walt Meffert and I was just blown away by what he's been able to accomplish. And I think within a very short period of time, it's going to be one of the organization's strengths. And also launched to go digital initiative, where almost 70% of the -- of [indiscernible] are now digitized. We've launched new driver apps, new rider apps, new member apps. Our member apps, we have integrated both the transportation with the food app and then we acquired WellRyde, which is -- was the leading gold standard technology in the transportation space or the NEMT space. And in fact, 5 of the -- We have 5 competitors that are using it, so it just gives you some sense of how people perceive that. But again, really good place now moving forward like how we're positioned, have addressed what I would describe as Achilles' heel of the company, and it's just going to continue to get better. The last piece of this though is this operational transformation. As we launched Storm last year, we're moving on the Lightning. We estimate that we can drive about $100 million of savings, improve quality, enhance the member experience. So it was just -- at the end of the day, a lot of waste in this business, and we're addressing it. And we feel very strongly about the opportunity and what we've been able to do on that front. And so just moving on to the last slide, which is the financial summary, the long-term objectives. This gives you a sense of pro forma revenue and how it breaks down, the pro forma EBITDA and how it breaks down. I could certainly see the day that these -- our ModivCare Home revenue and EBITDA matches that of the NEMT. And I don't think that's too far away. I think that's within the next couple of years. On the NEMT side, we fully expect to be mid- to single digits. EBITDA margins in the 7% to 10%, I think moving towards the 10%, given some of the operational improvements we made in the organization. Personal care, high single digits in terms of revenue growth EBITDA margins in the 10% to 12% range and then remote monitoring, mid-teens, mid-30 EBITDA range. And then you can see also on the bottom of this slide, in the right-hand corner about we've got a lot of win in our backlog, whether it be managed Medicaid or Medicare Advantage. This year, Medicare Advantage population across the 40% threshold of all Medicare lives. And again, we're -- given where we are with our Medicare, Medicaid payer relationships, the Medicare Advantage relationships are, frankly, equally as strong. So with that, we will move on to questions.

This is very helpful. A couple of questions on the business side. Could you please share a little more details for how you envision ModivCare service offerings fitting together? Are they currently bundling these services together? Are you creating some of the value -- some of value-based care arrangements? Will these capitated or fee-for-service offerings?

So the beauty of the business lines we're in right now is that they all have payment mechanisms in place. And so I just want to point that out is if we could -- for a time being, we could certainly grow these businesses independently of one another. That being said, we believe the future is in value-based care, and it's why we brought these businesses together, it's why we structured ModivCare Home the way we did. And with our expertise in managing capitated arrangements and managing risk-bearing relationships, we are going down this path. In fact, we have a significant initiative going on with a very large payer in the Midwest on around value-based care that looks at the 4 parts of our offering and then how does it impact the member, how does it impact the -- how does it impact [indiscernible] and the case manager, how does it -- what are all the other -- so we feel really good. I think within 3 to 4 months, we'll be in a really good position to talk more about exactly what this is going to look like in the future. And again, I would say that we listen to our customers. Our members want this. Our payers want this. Our states want this, and the case managers want this. And there's nobody in a better position to do that than us. And then we have this really unique skill set that we've developed over 20 years in the NEMT space around risk brand relationships. So that will be the future. But in the meantime, we're in a $55 billion market growing to $100 billion. We're in a $4 billion market, growing to $14 billion. We're in a $9 billion market in remote monitoring and a $9 billion market in meal delivery growing to $15 billion. So the good news is that, yes, we're going down that route. But in the meantime, we feel really good about the business, those businesses independent [indiscernible].

Got it. Another question is can you provide some color on your potential cross-sell opportunities within your existing customer base?

Yes. I think there's 2 points. One is as we -- so we established a client advisory board. About a year ago, we have these meetings every quarter. They include payers, states, hospital systems, the folks who play a role in those partnerships. And in fact, they've been instrumental in helping guide us to where we need to go and have actually been a couple of people as we've launched food, and we've launched value-based care. Those relationships were drove where people raised their hand and said, "We want to partner with you guys on this. And we gave them insight to what we're doing technologically and a whole bunch of things. So that's one selling point, right? So that -- those relationships that we've had for decades, which include payers and states and hospital systems and those 30 million lives we talked about that we manage currently. And then the other point of cross-selling is, in fact, with the case managers. And that's, again, why we establish ModivCare Home is because they don't want to deal with 20 personal care companies. They don't want to deal with 5 meal delivery companies. They don't want to deal with 6 remote monitoring companies. They want a one-stop shop. They want to make it easy -- they want us to make it easy for them to make a decision and facilitate the services that they know these members need to provide. So those are, from my perspective, the 2 important call points, and one has been very well established and has grown pretty significantly from a relationship standpoint and advisory standpoint. And then the other one is it's kind of like build it and they will come. And our case managers are just kind of doing backflips now that we're going to them with this for this one-stop solution. I don't know, Heath, would you add anything to that?

Yes. What's unique with mobility or NEMT, one, the size and scale, Dan already mentioned this, but within a specific state the way transportation works, it really -- you get the whole state for the most part. So it has -- it's very large. So you get the senior-related relationships. So we know the Medicaid Director in that state. We talk to the CEOs and CFOs of the managed care organizations. So we had the strong talks and then talk relationship [indiscernible] especially with the acquisition of VRI. This bottoms-up case manager local process, those are coming together now. So just reiterating, it's the nature of our business on mobility that allows us to have that and then the strengths that Jason and his team bring from VRI were bringing those together.

That makes sense. We got another question just came in. Someone's wondering there were a lot of turnover in the C-suite last few years, where skill sets not well meshed to evolution have gone through? Or should we expect stability going forward?

Listen, I mean, this is for the record, my sixth CEO job. I don't know how many people on the phone have ever run a company, and I'm not knocking it at all because it's -- I'm in the arena. We're in the arena. In many respects, the arena is not always clean and easy. That all being said, companies outgrow people, and people outgrow companies all the time. And my job is, as the CEO of this company, my most important -- and it's in our pillars, right people in right seats. And I will always, always, always be on the lookout when I think there's a mismatch there. Always. You've got that commitment from me. And if I were -- and I understand why people would say, "Well, what's going on here?" But if I were looking for one thing as CEO, and I'm just being completely candid with you, is that is he or she willing to make the tough decisions about right people in the right seats. And I will tell you, at this point in time, this is my sixth time CEO, sold 4 companies, done pretty well. This is the best team I've ever had in the field. It's a process. Keep in mind, when I took over the company, I had to turn over everybody, and I had to do that at BioScrip, I had to do that at Home Solutions, had to do that at Quorum, in some shape or form at Apria, I just -- this is like the nature of the beast. And like when you do -- when you have to take over a team that's frankly, you come in and it's not historically performed at levels they were capable of and you have to make that transformation in that leap. It's never easy. It's never perfect. And yes, there may be somebody like for that for 1 year, they're the perfect person. But the next year, they might not be. And everybody knows this on my team, I tell them that I love you, but I will fire you. And that's my commitment because my commitment is to the organization. My true north is to the organization. And I will say, I'm in the arena. I would also tell you, it's always a work in progress. It's never perfect. But again, I look at a company that was doing $52 million of EBITDA when I joined and look at it now. And the valuation increases in a company had never gotten above almost like $81 a share, look at us now. And I think the beauty of this is what we do know is the best is yet to come, and I got a ridiculous team on the field. And it's not just the C-suite anymore. It's the VP level. It's -- what I will share with people is that the noncommissioned officers are the ones who drive the army. It's not the execs. And if you don't have the buy-in from the noncommissioned officers, when I look at Vietnam versus the Gulf war, which I was in, and the big difference was the noncommissioned officers' commitment. And I think we've got -- not only do we have this amazing C-suite now, but holy c*** we have a team of noncommissioned officers now across every function that has all been upgraded from a talent basis. And so that's the other thing I would say.

Great. Next question is about competitive landscape. And the NEMT you mentioned, the company recently announced a partnerships with both Uber and Lyft in the past 24 months. Can you please discuss your view of Uber and Lyft's participation in the health care space and whether you view them as partners or competitors going forward?

It's all partners. I mean we -- they've got a service offering just like our other 6,000 TPs, and they help fill in the network. I mean at the end of the day, our most important job is making sure that member gets served. And if we have to partner with Lyft and Uber to do that, and they've been very good partners, it's a good thing. And they always represent 6%, 7% of the rides and just [indiscernible] we still have 10% of the rides are done with family members. So we partner with family members. We also partner with public transportation companies. That represents 6% to 7% of our rides. So it's a series of kind of pieces to this, Cindy, that include community-based transportation providers, family members, transportation, public transportation and Uber and Lyft. It's just we're managing this portfolio and they're an important part of the portfolio. And again, at the end of the day, if they can help us enhance the member experience within reason, and we're going to continue to use them. The good news is, I would share with you is that we've made enormous strides in our technology platform. I mean the product from the member standpoint looks very similar. Their product looks very similar to our product. And so our view is they'll still be a partner. They'll always be in this range. And so that's the rationale.

Yes, similar to what Dan said earlier, their model is different. They're a technology company and then they have individual drivers. So they don't do claims. They don't have capitated contracts. And then just in general,

Contact centers.

Contact. They just don't do that.

They don't do [indiscernible] right?

And then the individuals that are those drivers, they want to be in an area where they can have a dense population easier to serve. As Dan said, a lot of our populations are in ZIP codes that they don't typically want to be because there's not a lot of volume there or it's a tough neighborhood.

Yes, the economics of the neighborhood, talked about that. If the average income in that neighborhood is $10,000 for the record, they're not doing tips. They're not going to bars. They're not going to restaurants. They're not taking rides to the airport. It's just a different group of folks. And I also say sorry to interrupt you. I mean, these broadband deserts are real. WiFi not being at home is real. The -- and therefore, I would say we have to meet the member where they are. So we all get this kind of our little bubble around our technology world, where we have unlimited data, we have WiFi in the home, where we have smartphones. Well, that's not our patient population in most instances. And so yes, they can be very helpful. But there's also this high-tech, high touch is really important and why we have contact centers, why we have other ways to reach those patient populations. So that's only other thing I'd like to highlight. It's just different, but they can play an important role with us in a subset of our population, just like public transportation does, just like family members do. And we're going to continue to be a community-based organization. We are going to build our communities. We are going to -- not only are we going to continue to contract with transportation providers and move probably toward a more franchise-like model, but we're also going to make sure that we're investing in those communities. We are going to build minority business. We're going to build women-based businesses, and that's -- and where our transportation providers will reflect the communities they serve. And that's also a significant responsibility that we take very, very seriously. In fact, we launched ModivCare Academy just to do that to help build out these -- we had our first one in Illinois in Chicago about a month ago to help build these minority businesses and help build these women-based businesses. And so again, we're -- I went off a little bit, Cindy, but just philosophically, I want you to know where we're going with this. And again, I think they're important, and there's a whole bunch of other things that are important, too.

Great. That's very helpful. Next couple of questions for Heath regarding some financials. So what is your rationale in 7% to 10% margins in NEMT business when pre-COVID was low single-digit percentage?

I'm going to let Heath jump in here, but it wasn't low. In fact, if you look back historically, the company had been at that 6.7% to 7% range. It was only in '19 where they did a whole bunch of things that were incredibly disruptive to the company's best practices and whether that be managing things like cost overrides while they took the governor off of that. They may have best managed network health, they took the governor off of that. So there was this imbalance in supply and demand. They tried to do things in our contact centers that just created enormous turnover and staffing problems. And so the baseline for the company was in that 6.7% to 7% range. It wasn't -- '19 was an absolute anomaly. And I don't want to drag anybody through that again, and I'm happy to have a one-off conversation about the details of that, but we fixed that. And with the best practices that we're here with the legacy business, we've reinstated. Their 20 years were successful. They did a lot of stuff right. But new group comes in and it just -- it's not the first time this has happened in an organization. And then on top of it now, we've been successful with Storm. We've been successful with Lightning. Our contact center statistics are the best they've ever been. We're just, honestly, from an operational standpoint, we are getting this down. And moreover, we've got Storm that's $50 million of savings and Lightning, which we think we could achieve another $50 million, I think the upper end of that is where people should be looking and that it was never a less than 6.7%. It was the decisions that were made by the management team in '19 by taking out many of the best practices that the company established over time that brought that number down. That's it. Heath?

Yes. Said another way, the downside protected and why the range is larger is we're moving through this modernization automation, and we're still in the middle of COVID. So it's a broad range, but the right way downside protected, and we'll be moving to the upper side of that as we finish this transformation and come out of COVID and the related labor challenges within that.

Right. Next one, what are your initial thoughts on the company's financial performance in 2022? Obviously, there are still a lot of moving parts. But can you share -- if possible, share a little thoughts on that? And what are some of the key factors that could positively or negatively impact your performance this year?

Yes. And again, sorry, Heath, I'm [indiscernible].

You're on a roll.

Yes. Listen, we're very bullish. I mean, let's look at what we've done. I mean we have completely flipped the script on this company. And not only we flipped the script on the company, we've flipped the script on the NEMT business with the automation and modernization. We flipped the script on where the savings were in the organization and the opportunity there so not only drive out savings, but improving the member experience. And like I said, our contact center is a great example of that, where we are just laying it now. And world-class types of results in our contact centers, historically, the company has never been able to deliver on consistently. And so I think we're very bullish. We haven't -- we're still in the middle of our budget process. So we're not in a position to really offer any guidance. I think if you go to the last slide of the presentation for any questions, look there, and that should give you a pretty good understanding or good insights to where we think the business is. I think one of the things I would share with you is that we have grown the membership pretty significantly over the last couple of years. A big part of that, though, was the acquisition of UnitedHealthcare's National MedTrans business, which represent probably almost half of that growth. And here, we think there's lots of avenues into the Medicare Advantage. And if you guys remember, the UnitedHealthcare announcement about Medicare Advantage and how they were going to address that patient population, there was 3 things they said they were going to do: transportation, meal delivery and personal care. And that was probably 3 months after we had told everybody what we were going to do. And I'm not saying -- United's amazing. We weren't -- and they're a tremendous partner for us, but we're aligned with them. And I think we've got tremendous back. I think what I would share with you, and this is -- I think we get -- I think a lot of people get hung up on all these other things. The most important thing is anybody read a Jim Collins' book, it's the management team. It's the management team, and we've got a world-class management team now that's aligned where I think our execution muscle over the last 2 years is really strong. It's like I think we came in here, there was a very flabby execution muscle. And that's going to actually be it, and we've got the right people in the right seats to deliver on our commitments. And I feel really good because the team I have around me now and their alignment and their commitment and their capabilities.

One of the things you asked that things to look at. So we have close to 30,000 employees, and as Dan mentioned, around 6,000 transportation providers. They make 50,000 to 60,000 drivers, so that's a lot of people that are in this hourly wage. So the long term, we're in great markets, we're positioned. We feel really good about where we're going, as Dan said. Just like everybody else and probably every call that you're having around here, especially people that are taking health care services and have a lot of people that really is the labor, where we are as labor. So in these next number of weeks and months like everybody else, we're continuing to -- that's the focus of ours. On our personal care business, as we said multiple times, the demand is there. We need to get aides. On the NEMT side, the driver side, we are in the middle of those labor challenges, which are having a short-term cost impact. So for us, outside of all the great stuff we're doing from a strategy perspective and an execution perspective, that one factor like many other people looking at the labor, and that's what we are focused on, on a monthly basis and a quarterly basis.

Great. So I think Dan mentioned M&A perspective going forward. Could you please elaborate a little more about M&A strategies over the next 3 to 5 years?

Yes. I mean -- listen, I would say on the NEMT side, we are unbelievably well positioned. I mean we are -- we've got incredible technology forum, we've automated and modernized the business. Obviously, there's more opportunity there. So -- and we have described to you some of the operational opportunities with Lightning and with previously Storm. So I don't really see us doing much in that area because we're 4x larger than anyone else. The Achilles' heel of the company was the automation and modernization. We've largely solved. We have really good relationships with our payers of states and not perfect, but really good. And I feel like we're well positioned there. Yes, maybe there'll be some opportunistic things we're going to do there. But -- so there -- let's just put that one aside. And again, we think there's enormous opportunity in Medicare Advantage [indiscernible]. And then the second one is remote monitoring. There may be some hunting opportunities there in 35 states, but in order to get some other states, we may have to do some things that would help us get there, and we're going to remain open to that. And so on the food business, on meal delivery business, we've got a national partner. They've delivered over 500 million meals to date or 0.5 billion. They've got 9 locations across the country. I don't -- we're just going to have to continue to build that out and get that credentialing so that we can go sell into those markets, we feel very good about where that is. So where does that leave us personal care? $55 billion market growing to $100 billion. We're in 7 states. We think we could be a $3 billion to $5 billion company over the next 3 to 5 years in those states alone. But if you think about what we're doing for a business model, that's where the opportunity is. And there's 18,000 agencies, and we're the second largest now very quickly. And we've got a strong team and even stronger now that Jason is running it, and we feel really good about what we could do there. And we're well positioned. And so I think that's why I would view the landscape. I don't know if Heath...

No, I agree.

Awesome. I guess we're coming up on time. So thank you so much for the presentation. It's very informative. Thanks, Dan. Thanks, Heath. Thanks, everyone, for joining us today. And now we're going to wrap it up here.

Well, thank you, Cindy. Thank you, JPMorgan team. I mean you guys are really -- we're very appreciated and honored to be part of this and then also the investors who participated today. Thank you for your time. And obviously, we've got a couple of full days ahead of us. So I imagine some of the folks who are on this call will have the opportunity to reconnect with you very soon. And again, thanks all, and we'll talk soon.