Mold-Tek Packaging Limited (MOLDTKPAC.BO) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Mold-Tek Packaging Limited Earnings Conference Call hosted by Emkay Global Financial Services Limited. [Operator Instructions] I now hand the conference over to Nitin Gupta, Emkay Global Financial Services Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Good evening, everyone. I would like to welcome management and thank them for this opportunity. We have with us today J. Lakshmana Rao, Chairman and Managing Director I shall now hand over the call to him for his opening remarks. Over to you, sir.

Good evening, everybody. Thank you very much, Nitin. I'm very happy to inform you an excellent performance in this quarter by Mold-Tek packaging, where the revenues have shot up by 22%, and EBITDA margin has also shot up from 18-odd percentage last year to 19.7%. EBITDA per kg grew by 29%, and net profit is up by around 35%. This growth was possible due to all the sectors are doing very good in this year, starting with the Paint segment, thanks to ABG, the numbers have gone up considerably. And followed by Pharma, which is first time last year itself crosses the breakeven, has again grown by around 11% over the Q4 and started contributing handsomely to the bottom line. And Food & FMCG after a long time of several quarters has crossed double digits and almost achieved 14% -- 16% growth rate in the current quarter. So with all the segments doing good, only Lubricant has a negative growth, which was expected in this general monsoon season. Otherwise, all the segments are on a forward run given that they're almost 20%, 22% growth in revenue and improved profitability in all sectors across. What is more exciting for us at Mold-Tek is the speed at which the Pharma packaging is getting adopted and approved by several major players in the Pharma industry. As we talked in the last quarter again, 4 to 6 audits have taken place and everybody approving our facilities and started taking our products for trials. So as you know and as I explained in the last quarter meeting, Pharma is a little long time taking, but I'm pleasantly surprised that we could break in much faster than others. And going forward, several approvals are -- which have been received in the last 3, 4 months will start turning into commercial orders, improving the numbers in a better pace in the next few quarters. And I still feel that our set target of INR 35 crores for the current financial year for Pharma is very much achievable. And in the Food & FMCG also, as I said last year, printing bottlenecks have been completely removed, which enabled us to manage well with the label connectivity and IML product timely supplies. In spite of almost 1 month shortened summer, you all know that right from May, rain started all over India and consumption of ice cream and yogurts have fallen drastically. But in spite of that, we have registered a 16% growth in Food & FMCG, which I feel is a very good indicator for future growth. And our Panipat thin-wall food products is yet to start, it will be starting in the month of August, and that will also start adding to the another high-value product line of operation for Mold-Tek. So with all this, the future looks good and bright. And we are back on high-speed track now. For the last couple of years, more of project implementation and creating the greenfield projects has taken our retention and efforts. And now it is a time that this will be put into better utilization, which will improve the margins and profitability, I sincerely hope. So now I put it back to the operator to -- for the question and answers through which we can discuss more in detail.

[Operator Instructions] We have a first question from the line of Jaiveer Shekhawat from AMBIT Capital.

Sir, congrats on a good quarter. My first question is on your Paint business. Could you quantify the amount of growth that you have seen both for Aditya Birla Grasim as well as for the rest of the business? That will be my first question in terms of volumes.

See, I don't want to break up between the companies because that would be against our nondisclosure, but Aditya Birla is the main contributor for our growth is that much I can tell. However, even Asian Paints and other companies like AkzoNobel and KNP maintained if not a positive growth and neutral growth or sustain the same levels of the previous quarter. So that way, I see majority of the growth has come through Aditya ABG growth.

Sure. And sir, do you expect this quarterly run rate to sustain during the rest of the year and barring, let's say, the quarterly variation that happened because of the season demand. But otherwise, do you expect this 5,500 tonnes of paint containers sort of continue for the rest of the year?

Yes. We see that this paint will at least sustain at 5,500, 5,400 level, at least till third quarter, second quarter. But the third quarter will be a little dip after Diwali. But again, fourth quarter will start picking up. So probably, we may end up 21,000 to 22,000 tonnes in the paint sector this year. Can still be better provided how the market dynamics play between the players.

Sure. And sir, on your press release, you did mention, let's say, some of the newer customers for your Pharma business. So I see you have mentioned Laurus plus, let's say, some of the other pharma companies as well. So are these like recent approvals? Were you already in discussion with these. And then given that you've already guided on the scale of the business, is there any change to that, let's say, over the next 2 to 3 years in terms of the scale that you look to win?

I'm positive that what I guided last quarter will continue to happen. [ Inventia ], MN, Laurus Labs, Pulse these guys have been, I mean, reviewing us and monitoring our products and testing our products for the last several months. But now they started -- at least a couple of them started giving commercial orders. And a couple of them are yet to release. And I also said some of them, there are several other companies, which have audited our premises, testing our products. So all these numbers will start gradually adding to the Pharma business. And I foresee a better number can achieve even in this current year, if things go well because a couple of new products, which have been approved and commercial orders are received, will be starting in August. So they will contribute maybe INR 1 crore per month in terms of turnover. But a lot of other products which have been approved are under the approval by some of these clients will start adding. Each will be adding INR 25 lakhs to INR 40 lakhs, INR 50 lakhs per month. So like this, as we accumulate the numbers can double next year probably, if not at least 50%, 60%. So if you reach [ INR 35 crores to INR 40 crores ] this year, probably assuming INR 50 crores to INR 60 crores next year as a certain possibility.

And sir, lastly, you also mentioned in your presentation, you are trying to get into other nonseasonal industries as well in order to diversify away from, say, seasonal products like ice cream, could you quantify which other segments and then the scale of those segments over the couple of years. I mean, would it be sizable in the overall scheme of things?

Yes, yes. For example, you take Surf Excel, which is a detergent product. It's now contributing handsomely to our Qpack sales. And similarly, Horlicks, which is a more of a nutritional drink and consumer throughout the year is started picking up numbers. We have some products for Marico, which are also completely annual. We have protein products, which are also annual consumption. There's not much of seasonality in protein consumption. So coming to noodles, that's again a product where the consumption is there every season. So only ice cream and yogurt continue to be major players, but they are seasonal in nature. At least, especially in rainy season, consumption of ice creams and yogurt come down considerably in India. So that trend will continue. But because of these products, agro products, products which are micro fertilizers, which are, again, required in the rainy season. So they will add numbers. Similarly, sweets. Sweet boxes are picking up numbers very much. We have now introduced sippers, which will go more, of course, again, back in summer. But these sweet boxes go well in our festival season starting now. So June, July onwards, things will start picking up till end of this year, till new year. There are several festivals and festivities including Christmas. So until end of the year, I mean, calendar year, we'll have demand for those boxes. And we are doubling that capacity now. And then restaurant packs throughout the year, there is demand for them. So like this, the dependence on ice creams and yogurt would be coming down, what compared to 5 years ago, our product mix and today, we have a much wider range. And Panipat plant will be starting production in August. And -- but sure it will catch up with the festival demand in north, and it will catch up for the summer by Feb-March when the next summer starts. So that will be adding numbers in Food & FMCG. So we are confident that 15%, 16% growth, what we achieved in Food & FMCG can continue.

Sure. Sir, last question is on your overall volume outlook -- volume growth outlook and also in terms of our capacity, so what I understand is you're also expanding for ABG as well, which is set to get commissioned by second quarter. And then, of course, this Panipat facility, which comes in from August onwards, are there any other capacities that you have planned?

Yes. Capacities in Pharma are also gradually being increased as per the demand increase. We have even acquired a new land of 2.5 acres adjacent to our Sultanpur project. And there also -- again, there will be investments in terms of injection molding machines, molds, IBM machines and even new product range is also under final consideration. If we go for that product range that can also require some investments, not very huge because it's not greenfield, but there will be reasonable investments in Pharma growth. So that way, this year also -- there will be investment to the tune of INR 80 crores to INR 90 crores, if not INR 130, INR 140, which we invested in the last 3 financial years.

Sure. So anything on the volume outlook that you expect for this year?

Yes. The volume outlook, we are aiming at least 45,000 tonnes for the full year, 43,000 tonnes to 45,000 tonnes, depending upon how the other quarters go by. That's why we still hold on to the expectation of 12% to 15% volume growth or at least 18%, 20% of revenue growth. One positive point I'm glad about is, if you look at the per kg sales revenue, it's shot up from INR 198 last year to INR 211, whereas the -- that actually contributed well to the EBITDA, that is because of the product mix is improving. We are more of a pharma added and from 0 to whatever INR 9 crores -- INR 7.5 crores now. And Food & FMCG has grown considerably. So these 2 are the factors, which increased our net revenue per kg.

The next question is from the line of Abhishek Navalgund from Centrum Broking.

Congrats on a good set of numbers. Sir, first question is on Asian Paints. So in your opening comments, you mentioned that large part of growth in paints was driven by [ PPG ], and you're saying that it's revenue portfolio is largely flattish, but maybe talking about, let's say, some shifts of volumes happening from, let's say, non-IML to IML...

Your voice is not clear, Abhishek.

Hello. Is it better?

Yes. Yes, better now. Yes.

Yes. I'm saying there was a talk about shift of volumes from non-IML to IML wherein we clearly have an edge over maybe peers. So why it is not getting reflected in the numbers as much? I'm talking about Asian Paints, sir, yes.

No. Asian Paints are neutral. You remember last 2, 3 years, we had an actual negative growth in Asian Paints, 10% to 12% drop in the last 3 financial years. And this year, we are stable. That itself is a good indicator of staying fit with the Asian Paints through IML. And with now IML facilities have been created in all plants. Earlier, we used to supply them from Hyderabad or part of Daman, but now we have facility at Satara, Vizag and Mysore also, ready to go with IML, where we set up robust and compatible molds. So I'm hoping that, that should improve our numbers gradually during the next few quarters. So ultimately, I hope we'll end up with a positive digit of growth in Asian Paints also.

Sure. Okay. And second one on the capacity utilization. I think you mentioned that Satara was at 55%, 57% in FY '25, but we were at almost, I think, 75% utilization somewhere in April, May. So possible to share the number for the quarter in paints overall and...

So the quarter the capacity utilization of Satara, as again, not very impressive because we have added several machines there in view of their Mahad requirement. So the Satara plant utilization is still in 50s, 50%, 55% only because of the extra capacity that has been created in the last 6 months. That is getting slowly occupied because their Mahad operations are improving at ABG. And once it takes off, hopefully, in this season, the season starts from July till November. Hopefully, that number will improve to 60%, 65%.

Sure, sure. And I think we are improving our quarterly run rate for Pharma, and you talked about new approvals also. So I mean, what sort of annual number you are looking at this year in Pharma?

We are still hoping on INR 35 crores would be a good number to reach from INR 7 crores, INR 8 crores last full year, INR 8 crores, INR 9 crores. So that will be quadrupling our numbers. So from INR 9 crores or whatever last year, full year, we'll be achieving at around INR 35 crores, INR 36 crores for sure. And if a few things will happen as per our plan, it can even exceed.

Sure, sure. And possible to share, I mean, which part of your portfolio, let's say, your effervescent tubes or canisters vis-a-vis bottles and caps, which part is actually getting a lot more traction or its equally...

Currently, it is effervescent tubes. If you ask me the majority of the -- more than 50% of the sale is happening in the EV tubes. But caps and bottles will overtake very soon because a number of approvals are pending or cleared for trial runs, applied for FDA approval, client approvals. So several products, I would say, more than 20 products are at a different approval stage by clients. And one by one are getting released. For example, Gravity released 2, 3 products in the month of May, June, and now they're talking about another 3 product release. So those numbers will be added and MSN, Laurus, Ajanta, we have several other clients who have approved but not even started testing our products. After approval, they take the testing. And after testing commercial trials, commercial trials [Foreign Language] -- machine trials. Machine trials [Foreign Language] final commercial orders. Even commercial orders won't come in millions. They first give a couple of lakhs and see their lines and everything. And then fourth stage, they go for giving us a major stake. If you ask me, hardly a couple of clients are adopted us as one of the major suppliers, not even the most highest. We are still getting maybe 20%, 25% of share from a couple of clients, whereas more than 15 clients have approved us. So once all these 15 clients take us as one of their major suppliers, the number can shoot up. That -- I don't want to speculate now, but I'm sure it's going to be good in the coming years.

Right, right. So we are in the process of doubling the capacity. So with this potential expansion, I mean, the peak revenue can be like INR 100 crores from Pharma?

Yes. The current capacity itself, we can reach INR 60 crore, INR 70 crores, and this new expansion of INR 10 crores, INR 12 crores brownfield will take it beyond INR 100 crores possibility -- possible capacity. And then there will be a continuous of growth because we have taken the land, I told, last quarter another 2.5 acers adjacent to the current land. And there, probably the second phase, I would call this is the first phase expansion what is happening during this year. And second phase expansion will happen in that land next year, that is next financial year for sure, because the way it's going on, the facility will not be able to hold the growth. We need to construct. The whole thing is pharma buildings and interior standard specs to reach, we need at least 9 to 12 months for the building itself. So we are starting that blue plan -- blueprint now for the new land also, but probably we'll start only towards the end of this calendar year and reach into production by middle of next year. So this year, production, fortunately, there's enough space in the existing building itself. There we'll be able to accommodate the current year expansion. And future expansion will happen in the new land probably in the next financial year.

Sure. And one last thing from my side. The thin-walled capacity in North, which we are starting from August, do we have any sort of visibility from existing clients, let's say, a few FMCG companies and maybe which all categories we'll be targeting to begin with?

Yes. We have Surf Excel, for example, at Baddi. So that volumes, which are now currently going all the way from Daman or Hyderabad will be molded there. We have a new client added in protein powder, we are supplying from Hyderabad, which will be now converted there. And we have a range of new sweet boxes for the north market will be starting production. A range of ice cream products and yogurt products by February, March will start. So accordingly, their operations can reach a level of almost 2,000 -- 1,800 tonnes to 2,000 tonnes per annum by next financial year. This year, it will be ramping up gradually from 0 to 1,000 tonnes by end of this financial layer and probably 1,500 tonnes to 1,800 tonnes during the next financial year in the Food & FMCG segment.

The next question is from the line of Sanjit Narang from Narang Family Office.

Is my voice audible?

Yes, Mr. Sanjit.

So my question is like now we have reached 41.8 per kg EBITDA per tonne. You have guided us for the last quarter, INR 42 per tonne. But going forward, given Q1 is one of your stronger quarters, how would we achieve that INR 42 or we will cross it? You are having visibility to cross it or we will stay short, I'm a little confused on that?

This is again a speculative thing. I said INR 40, INR 42 is our target, and we are already there at INR 41.6. And going forward, of course, as you said, this is the best quarter, but the better quarters might emerge if Pharma takes up in a way beyond what it is in this Q1. And probably it can safeguard the bottom line, if not the top line. And so I'm still confident we will be in the bracket of INR 41, INR 42 for the full year. And I won't be surprised if it marginally crosses also.

Okay. And last quarter, you guided us for any breakthrough on the to JSW to AkzoNobel.

JSW has acquired AkzoNobel. I didn't say there will be breakthrough. I said business will continue with AkzoNobel.

Yes, I was -- last quarter we discussed that we might get entry in JSW to AkzoNobel. Is that -- about that?

Not yet happened. I think actually the last -- previous management only is still monitoring and communicating with us. There is no change has been even announced formally. So I can't comment as of now. And that is not a certainty that we will get their business. The last time also I mentioned that it may happen, may not happen. So we would only know once their new management really takes over.

The next question is from the line of Shirish Pardeshi from Motilal Oswal.

Can you give me a breakup of INR 11,400 crores by segment?

That 11,400 tonnes you mean?

Yes.

Yes. Paint is around 5,600, Lubes 2,400. Food and Qpack together is 3,200, 190 Pharma.

Okay. The second question I have is the Cheyyar Facility, which came up first. So what is the capacity utilization there? And is it significantly helping to improve our EBITDA because...

Yes, Cheyyar capacity utilization has improved a bit. It is now close to 68%. And it will certainly -- once it crosses 60%, 65%, it's a contribution to the bottom line will be reasonable, if not great. And we are now shifting Gulf production from Vizag to Cheyyar. Most of the molds are ready, and we are setting up 1 set of pail manufacturing at Cheyyar to meet the lubricant demand because lubricant molds are different, paint molds are different. So once that starts probably in August, the Cheyyar capacity utilization will further improve.

Okay. The other thing I wanted to check in Food & FMCG, this kind of growth. I mean, you have given a lot of commentary, but top 2 customers or top 3 customers, are they giving indication that the throughput will improve as the products basket will also improve?

The throughput improvement depends upon their product performance, but the basket improvement, I can see definitely will happen because more and more Food & FMCG products are seeking IML containers now. We are in talks with a couple of MNCs for projects which can involve reasonable number of quantities of products, which can add significantly to the numbers. Even HUL last year, growth was -- this quarter growth compared to last year was very considerable. I don't want to quote the percentage, but it is definitely a big jump. And going forward now we added Marico, we added Nestle and Horlicks, that is GSK, who have started taking their products in IML containers. So once the -- once we see the traction happening in the market, there will be a lot of interest in the other competitive products. So we see that FMCG, there's a long way to go in growth. Even the sippers, we have introduced for the first time in India with IML, those are yet to take off in a big way, but we are in talks with a couple of -- if not a huge players, medium player. Generally, it is always the midsized players take a faster call on packaging change. And then the biggies follow. So we hope that sippers market will establish over the next few quarters. So that is where we are also putting our fingers into, and we hope that will contribute to the growth in Food & FMCG.

Okay. Just last question on Panipat. Is Panipat is now fully operational and will be commercialized for most of the products?

See, Panipat is also currently running at around 78% in this quarter. That's a pretty good percentage to achieve in last -- within 1.5 years. And there, we have already started the Qpack production. Some of the Qpacks for Surf Excel detergent and some of the edible oil suppliers we have started giving from Panipat itself. So going forward, again, we are adding some more machines there in this year. The current capacity of 5,000 tonnes probably would shoot up to somewhere around 6,500 to 7,000 including Food & FMCG. Food & FMCG there currently is maybe 400, 500 -- 600 tonnes. Another 1,000 tonnes we'll be adding now. And maybe another 700, 800 in the paint business that is meant for the ABG growth. So Panipat will continue to have good traction because of the product mix, both Qpack, Food and Paints, almost like its Hyderabad unit. So that's another focus unit for us. And probably it will continue to enjoy better capacity utilization.

Just last follow-up on the overall volume growth what you've delivered this quarter is very good. But if you have to maintain 15%, which are the top 2 segments, which will drive in the rest of year. Of course, paint will be one.

Paint will continue to be there because of ABG numbers are growing up compared to the last year in a big way. So paint will continue to be adding good numbers. Food & FMCG and -- and in a bigger way, though it is a small number is pharma in terms of EBITDA addition or improving the EBITDA, Pharma will play a major role, whereas for the volumes growth, Food & FMCG and Paint will continue to be rising.

The next question is from the line of Pratyush, an individual investor.

Am I audible, sir?

Yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

Sir, I have 3 questions mainly. Firstly, what is the lead time for procurement of like goods from any customer in each of the segments, Paints and FMCG and Pharma?

What do you mean by receiving the goods? You mean supplying the goods?

Sir, I mean like, for example, if Asian Paint requires 1,000 extra containers in December. They wanted to be sold to the distributor by December. Then considering the time they will require to manufacture the paint and then supply it, in which months would they probably place the order for the 1,000 containers with you? Would it be like September or October? How many months in advance would it typically be?

A couple of weeks -- 2, 3 weeks in advance.

Okay. And it's similar for all the sectors?

Mostly. Most of them -- nobody keeps a huge stock of packaging materials. General takes the packaging material just a few days in advance. And the moment they fill it, it is a time for distribution. So mostly -- in my opinion, most of the clients will move out the foods within 2, 3 weeks from the day they procure from us.

Okay. Sir, second question, like I see that there's a lot [Audio Gap] for example, they are seeing in hydrogen, so there is a company Time Technoplast, which uses polymers to make the container for hydrogen, CNG, et cetera. So I wanted to understand if that's something you will also [Audio Gap] in the future? And if not, is there a very big difference between plastic packaging and polymer packaging because of which you would not enter this segment?

Yes. I have to study that what you are talking about hydrogen packing and other. If it is made of multilayer film or tubes, that is different from injection molding. Injection molding is always like containers, where especially in injection molding you get only white mouth containers. So very gaseous products, will be difficult to handle in containers. You need only tubular or multilayer film packing for that. You can't do it in...

Okay. And sir last...

Not effervescent, yes.

Okay. Sir, last question. So basically, like there was some [Audio Gap] started manufacturing their own packaging. So I mean, what kind of reasons are there for which, for example, Asian Paints or any big packaging [Technical Difficulty] might not backward integrate and start manufacturing their own tubs, like just the customer concentration-based question.

Yes, 1 of the companies have their own packaging manufacturing, Pratyush, because it makes no sense to produce the packaging products because the volumes that you can produce on injection molding machine are humongous. And if your plant is not able to consume it, then you have to find how to utilize your capacity. So nobody want to go to the pain of manufacturing their own packaging products. Never in the history. Very rarely you might notice it, maybe in the case of tins for edible oil because of the tin is cheap product and transportation eats a lot of money. Most of the tins are made in-house by the edible oil companies. That is the only area where the packaging products are made, whereas containers are very high-end technology and investment is huge, and nobody would venture to go into it as an in-house capacity. That, yes, you don't -- need not to have.

Okay. Just 1 additional question, sir. Generally, in Pharma or any sector, till what extent are customers willing to give any 1 company, for example, in Mold-Tek or any other raw material area company led to [Audio Gap] or would you be receiving, would it be 20, 50 or how much of their order would be given to you?

Yes. Typically, big companies look at 20%, 25% is a comfortable share for 1 supplier. But you will be surprised that we have several customers. Even today, we are the 100% supplier to them. That includes Hindustan Unilever, that includes even [indiscernible], which are international companies. There are companies like Shell, Mobil and Valvoline, where we are more than 60% supplier. Castrol, we are more than 60%, 70% supplier. So that all depends upon the reputation and credentials of the packaging.

The next question is from the line of Chirag from Keynote Capitals.

Most of my questions are answered. However, I would like to know, you have mentioned about just-in-time supply chain process for the FMCG. Could you let us know what kind of working capital improvisation are taking place because of this?

No, no. Actually, what we mean by just in time is previously, we used to have problems handling the label connectivity. IML label connectivity, we used to have almost 3 to 4 weeks waiting period and then supplying to clients who take another 1 week. So we used to quote 5 weeks as a supply time for any new product or a new artwork development. Whereas now with the enhanced capacities, both in printing and die cutting. The connectivity can be as low as 7 to 10 days. So what I -- when we said that improvement is connectivity in the just-in-time means within a week, 10 days. Because as I said to the previous question, typically, claims plan 2 to 3 weeks packaging material. So they will be planning on first of the month, supplies to come by middle of the month. So if earlier we used to take about a month to meet such a demand or more than a month. Today, we brought it down to 10 days, thanks to the extra capacities we created in printing and better quality -- better inventory control. In fact, in this process, inventory will not go up, rather inventory becomes a little leaner because earlier we used to keep for big brands 2 to 3 months inventory. But today, we don't need to because of higher capacity available and better machinery, which can produce short quantities with a low rejections and low cost. So this enhanced printing facilities enable us to improve our supply connectivity in -- especially in main season, where the clients also cannot assess their demand. They think they can sell 1 lakh containers of 1,000 ml in April, all of a sudden it will become 2 lakhs, 2.5 lakhs. And then they'll scamper to procure the packaging material without which they can't sell. So that is when we'll be in a position to respond better now with the enhanced printing facilities. That is a meaning.

Correct. So if I'm understanding it correct, this means that the testing phase where customer requires multiple changes in their first batch of product, we can deliver it faster due to which it would be easier for us to get approval from a newer client, one. Second, the inventory days that we have today on our books is expected to reduce with the help of this, correct?

Yes. Yes, sir, no for the second one, but surely, for the first one, yes, because of better serviceability during the summer especially or a high season like festival pack or whatever, we used to lose quite a few clients in the past. Now the connectivity has become faster and most of the clients are happy this season with our supplies in time. And that is now -- further going to improve now because of 2 reasons. One is Panipat being closer to North will now service the North clients and supply within 2, 3 days instead of 10 days from Hyderabad. Second is IML quantities will be -- can be produced quickly on the new machinery what we added and can be brought to production faster than earlier. So instead of 3 to 5 weeks waiting, there surges in demand can be met within 10 days. So that will make them depend more on Mold-Tek.

Fair point. Fair point. Sir, my second question, could you give me the mix of IML, non-IML volume and value?

Yes, that still continue to be similar to last quarter. It is around 75% total IML and label, 25% non-IML. But in the non-IML, again, there is a Pharma of whatever 3%, 4% to be removed from this also. So it will be around 20% only skin printing and other decoration...

Got it. And value terms?

In terms of value, it is still similar, 77%, up from 70% last Q1. That's in 1 year, there's an improvement of 70% becoming 77%. So more reduction of IML and HTL. And non-IML has come down.

Lakshmana Sir, If I'm correct, IML products are at least 10 percentage expensive than non-IML, right?