Mondi plc (MNDI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining today's call at short notice. As I said, I'm Andrew King, Group CEO; and with me is Mike Powell, our Group CFO. As you will have seen from our statement, the challenging market environment we spoke about at our half year results in July has continued through the third quarter. This resulted in an underlying EBITDA of EUR 223 million for the quarter. Across the period, we saw subdued market demand impacting sales volume in the upstream pulp and paper businesses in particular. And since we last reported results look at results at end of July, we've also seen further pulp and paper price declines across most grades. Our packaging converting operations delivered a stable performance when compared to the prior quarter. Despite this difficult backdrop, challenging trading conditions are expected to persist for the remainder of this year as demand side confidence remains fragile. Furthermore, key markets remain in oversupply and current selling prices are lower than the third quarter averages. While we remain confident in the structural drivers underpinning through cycle growth in our packaging solutions, we are equally cognizant of the impact of the current prolonged cyclical downturn on near-term performance. In response, we have intensified our focus on operational efficiency, cost control and cash generation, mitigating the impact of the current softer markets while ensuring we are well positioned to capture growth and deliver enhanced returns when favorable conditions return. In this context, in the six months since completing the acquisition of Schumacher, we have identified an additional EUR 10 million of cost synergies, taking the total identified synergies to EUR 32 million. As a further step to streamline our organization, facilitate cost takeout and drive synergies across our pulp and paper businesses, in particular, we are combining our Uncoated Fine Paper business with our Corrugated Packaging business unit. Going forward then, we will be organized into two business units, enlarged Corrugated Packaging and Flexible Packaging, which remains unchanged. All our capacity expansion projects are ramping up, and we remain confident that we -- that they are cost competitive, deliver significant integration benefits and once fully optimized, will deliver mid-teen mid-cycle returns. However, near-term profitability is influenced by prevailing market conditions, meaning the net incremental contribution to full year 2025 EBITDA is now expected to be around EUR 30 million. We are ensuring that all ongoing capital expenditure is focused on stay in business and cost optimization opportunities. As you will know, the remaining major capacity expansion project we have been working on is the new sack kraft paper machine at our Hinton mill in Canada. We have decided to put this project on hold, but we retain the full optionality to invest when market conditions improve. We are confident these steps will enable us to navigate current headwinds, build a stronger, more efficient operating platform and drive free cash flow. This will protect value today and enhance returns when market conditions improve. With that short introduction, I'm happy to take questions. Mike and I are both here to take questions. So we'll hand back to the operator. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] Our next question is from Charlie Muir-Sands. Charlie, please unmute and go ahead, ask you question.

Can you hear me okay?

We can. Thank you Charlie.

Great. So, I had two, please. Firstly, you talked about increased focus on costs and actions in that regard. I just wondered at this stage, whether you had any particular program in mind and whether there was going to be any specific quantum of additional cost savings that you would be aiming to target and if there would be any kind of onetime charges in order to implement those changes. And then the second question relates to the weakness of demand. I think you said demand in your packaging operations was stable. But so it sounds like it's weakness in -- you obviously mentioned pulp and paper, but also sort of packaging materials, packaging papers themselves. So do you get the sense that there was an element of destocking amongst your customer base going on or they exposed to end markets which are different to own converting operations and therefore, there's uneven weakness out there?

Thanks, Charlie. On the first question, so, I mean, clearly, we have a philosophy around continuous improvement. That being said, clearly, at times like this one looks to accelerate wherever possible around the cost takeout initiatives. We are working through a number of programs, some of which are very much call it shop floor led. Part of the rationale, and we'll talk about it around the reorganization of our business units is about driving very much a shop floor, and efficiency and productivity excellence initiative. And simply put, it's easier to run those sort of things out under one umbrella. So we are doing those sort of programs, which, of course, are somewhat longer term in nature, but we are very confident will continue to take us to the next level of operational efficiency. I think we are good at it, we can get even better. It doesn't per se mean any one-off costs associated with that. Really to the extent we look at any further cost takeout opportunities, there might be some one-off costs involved, but those are difficult to quantify at this stage, and we are working through those programs at the moment. On your question on the demand side softness, and I think it can't all be subscribed to a destocking. So you're right in that the underlying -- sorry, the converting business has held up pretty well from a profitability perspective. But undoubtedly, there's a fight for share in those markets where demand -- it's not -- it's not falling off a cliff or anything like that. It's just been grinding along in a very subdued manner. And that has caused intense competition. And of course, that has impacts on margins, but volumes are okay, but certainly not in any kind of rebound phase at this stage on the demand side at the underlying converting level. Where we are seeing softness, of course, is that translates across the value chain and up into the paper businesses. So we have been taking some downtime in our paper businesses, which, of course, has profit implications because you're carrying a big, fixed cost base. But that is a necessary response to what remains a very subdued demand-side environment and clearly coupled in certain cases by oversupply problems with the capacity expansions, particularly in the recycled containerboard space as everyone is well aware. So it's really that combination, but I wouldn't put it down to a destocking effect. I think it is a general market softness throughout the value chain.

Our next question is from Lars Kjellberg at Stifel. Lars, please unmute and go ahead, ask you question.

I just want to come back a bit just to understand what you said about demand. Did you see a sequential weakening market in the third quarter versus Q2? Second question is about the maintenance shuts you talked about extending them. But can you give us any sense of, call it, the maintenance costs in the quarter and what you expect to have on the balance of the year? Also FX, does that play a role here? There's been some significant movements, of course, the dollar has been particularly weak. Does that play a role? And the final question is about the restructuring that you talked about merging the Fine Paper business with the sort of Corrugated Packaging business. I guess there is some overlap in Ružomberok and Richards Bay, but from the outside, of course, that reduces the visibility in your earnings base. So what are the real benefits from bringing those two businesses together?

Thanks, Lars. Let me start with your second and third question on maintenance and FX. So, on maintenance, we have extended the shuts due to the subdued demand situation. At the half year, I guided there would be about EUR 40 million in Q3 and EUR 40 million in Q4. We took about EUR 50 million in Q3, and I would expect the same roughly number in Q4. So maintenance shuts up EUR 10 million in both quarters. In terms of FX, yes, the dollar continues, as you say. It's probably, again, in around probably EUR 5 million. It's always a difficult number because we sell in a number of currencies that sort of dollar pegged. So the bigger issue is the wider economic impact of the dollar and the economic policies behind it. But in the quarter, it's probably a EUR 5 million impact. As I say, it's quite a difficult number to really pin down, but it's of that order, Lars. Andrew?

Yes. And I'll just add on the currency story, Lars. I mean, clearly, it has a bigger impact in a softer demand environment because invariably, what happens is to the extent your core home markets are softer, that invariably means you typically export a bit more. And of course, exporting into a weaker dollar pricing has negative mix effects. So it is an important driver in that context, probably more so than the straight transactional exposures that Mike referred to. Just in terms of your first question on the demand side weakness and is it -- how much does look sequentially? I mean, firstly, very clearly, as you can imagine, it's only just the beginning of October. We don't have all the industry numbers. So it's always dangerous to just quote our numbers in isolation because, of course, we don't know how the market shares and the like have been moving over this period. I don't suggest it's got materially worse, particularly in the packaging side. It just hasn't got better. And I think July was a relatively weak month for the industry. If you look at the industry stats, as I said, I don't think we've got August and September, they haven't been published. So, simply put, we don't know exactly what the industry numbers look like. But I would just suggest that there's been this continued weakness on the corrugated side, which that hasn't got worse, just hasn't got better. Fine Paper, I think, I mean, you saw a sharp decline in demand over the first half. That certainly hasn't recovered into the second half. And frankly, there's an intense fight for share in a shrinking market that's taking place at the moment, exacerbated by the weak pulp price because, of course, the weak pulp price flattens out the cost curve, gives more oxygen to the higher cost unintegrated producers, and that is now translating into margin pressures as pulp prices having come down and they exposed directly to that on the long pulp position, but also the impact on paper prices. In kraft paper, again, if you look at the underlying bag demand, it's okay. Kraft paper demand in the first half was quite weak, and I think that's continued in the second half. And again, that is now putting pressure on pricing and that probably is new news relative to what we have seen at the half year. And, sorry, and then your last point on the reorganization of the business units. I appreciate there's the external reporting issues there. But very clearly, we report as we run the business. We've run on a value chain basis, and we think that, that's appropriate because that gives the necessary customer focus the necessary speed and response of innovation and development, and we've got a lot of exciting work that we are doing in that regard and we'll continue to do. But at the same time, we recognize that having our pulp and paper operations in three different business units adds a degree of complexity. And the reality is the two biggest operations in uncoated fine paper are mixed-use mills. It's Ružomberok in Slovakia, which produces both containerboard and fine paper and it's Richards Bay in South Africa, which is actually not even a fine paper mill, it's pulp and containerboard. Frankly, it makes sense to run those under one system with combined with the big containerboard operations, obviously, Swiecie being a flagship there, Duino, Kuopio and the others. So it really facilitates, frankly, from an operational perspective, driving best practice across our pulp and paper mills. As I say, we are implementing at the moment a shop floor operating system. And I think that exercise in itself showed up some of the additional complexities we had by having, as I say, those mills in different business units, and this simply allows us to be much more efficient in driving those processes, driving also -- and driving our businesses to the next level of operational excellence. So that is the motivation behind it. Obviously, that also allows some streamlining of the corporate overhead and assuring that we're ready to faster and more agile than we've been before. So it's for all of those reasons that we are combining those two businesses into this reorganization. And you've got all the history of the two businesses, simply put, if you add those two numbers together that you get the combined business. So it's very easy to compare historic performance versus what we will be reporting on going forward. And just to add finally to that, clearly, the direction of travel for our growth is in our packaging businesses, and that's where we invest in for growth, and that's where we'll continue to do so. So those are the reasons we did it. I appreciate that has a reporting implication, but no doubt Mike and Fiona will help you understand the respective numbers there.

Thank you, Lars. Operator?

Our next raise hand is from Brian Morgan at RMB Morgan Stanley.

Two questions, if I may. Andrew, in the past, we've spoken about kraftliner imports coming in from the U.S. typically when the dollar is weaker. Are you seeing that this time?

Yes. So, definitely, as you said, there typically is some kraftliner coming from the U.S. most of the time. You would have expected maybe more with the current dollar weakness. But in a sense, I think that is not happening simply because the positive on that side is really the closures in the U.S., I think, have tightened up the U.S. market. And rightly, I think most of the U.S. producers saw exports as not being where you should sort of structurally position yourself. And so I suspect a lot of the capacity reductions have targeted reducing their reliance on exports, and that's probably manifesting in the fact that despite the weaker dollar, you're not really seeing a big surge of imports that you might have expected in a different world.

That's good. Thank you, Andrew. And then the question is on dividend, if I may. So quite a bad free cash flow negative situation this year, obviously, with all the projects that you spent on, and I suppose they're all in the rearview mirror now. Is the dividend from last year still intact? Or should we be thinking about a lower dividend year-on-year?

No, Brian, I mean, I think you said at the half year, and we always look at the dividend at the end of the year. As a Board, we'll do that again. Clearly, you've seen in the release and Andrew's commented about the focus on cash. The CapEx number for FY '26, at least the guidance I've given out, and you've also heard us talk about Hinton today, which clearly means that, that cash that might have been penciled in for FY '27 isn't going to flow out now. And clearly, the internal focus is very much around cash delivery. So I think we'll look at it in the round as we always do. We've got a good balance sheet still. Clearly, the net debt is controllable to some extent. And the EBITDA moves around as we've seen over the last, frankly, three to four years. Our job is to, as you say, focus on that free cash and the capital allocation within it. And for the dividend, we'll have a look at it at the end of the year. It's an important part of our capital stack, but we'll clearly, yes, we'll have a look where the economy is towards the end of middle of February probably.

Very importantly, as Mike says, on the CapEx, we, in a way, have the luxury of being able to pull back without mortgaging the upside that we are confident will come. But clearly, here and now, the focus is very much on stay in business CapEx, cost optimization. But clearly, the capacity is in. It's now about fully utilizing that.

Our next question is from Cole Hathorn at Jefferies.

Can I just follow up on the major CapEx projects, the guidance now moving down to EUR 30 million contribution. Is there any color you can give on to 2026? And then similarly, I know it's early, but I'm sure you're starting to think about the 2026 year. Could you start talking about some of the positive moving parts in what will be the sequential contributors to EBITDA for 2026 from here?

Yes. Cole, it's Mike. Just on the first one, I mean it's pretty difficult, because of course, it relates to the second part of your question. I mean, very simply put, if you think of the projects, we're very sort of pleased to where we got to in terms of the build and the ramp-up. Clearly, the commercial and the pricing is the issue. That's the issue across the whole of the business. And of course, those projects are probably 20% of the capital employed of the group. So they get affected just as the rest of the group does. So it will depend on the dynamics into 2026, what that number pans out to be. Andrew, do you want to touch on thoughts around next year?

Yes. I think, Cole, it's -- I mean we're in a world which is extremely difficult to predict at the moment. I think everyone felt that at the beginning of this year, there was some upward momentum. I mean we were certainly seeing it in the pricing dynamic. We were seeing it in frankly, the volume dynamic as well. What gives me confidence is we are still seeing good volume growth in our converting businesses, albeit not what we were anticipating earlier this year. And clearly, as always, packaging consumption is a function of the macroeconomic backdrop and Europe, in particular, remains very muted. I think the big question is what changes in that regard. And clearly, if one started to see some consumer confidence returning, some manufacturing confidence returning, that can change things quite quickly. But that is clearly the single biggest driver in terms of relative profitability from one to the next. We are extremely confident that the structural growth dynamics that underpin our packaging offerings remain very much intact. And we're simply in the middle of what is really a very prolonged downturn and one traces this downturn back to kind of end of '21 into the middle of 2022 when the demand side started to soften. And really we've been in a very protracted period now of slowdown. So, clearly, that is the single biggest driver behind what might impact the year-on-year profitability. We caution that going into Q4, we're not seeing anything on that front at the moment. And so hence, we have to be cautious about the short-term outlook. But again, we are very confident in the medium-term growth dynamic in the packaging businesses that we are well invested in and have exposure to the upside. In the short term, clearly, our job is to make sure we do all the things we've been talking about around controlling what we can in terms of the driving costs down, driving productivity and ensuring we are best placed when the world does recover. Clearly, in terms of the near-term bridges, it's very difficult to say at this point. But obviously, as Mike already said, on the CapEx front, it is a function of how the market develops in addition to the self-help, which will always naturally come as we ramp these things up. The likes of Duino, in particular, is very much still in ramp-up with all the costs associated with that. You get a big, fixed cost base before you get the full benefit of the volumes coming through. So we still have to optimize all of those sort of investments from a ramp-up perspective. And then, of course, we also are doing all the work on the Schumacher integration. You saw the synergy -- the hard cost synergy number. That is the primary. The big focus at the moment in addition to the commercial ramp-up, which is critical. And yes, and then going forward, obviously, things like shuts, et cetera, as Mike already said, we extended some of those shuts this year where in a better market environment, you wouldn't do that. And off the top of my head, I don't think I can point to any material change in our planning around the actual technical shut component. So, yes, in short term, Cole, I know it's a difficult one, but it is a function also of what one sees around the macroeconomic spectrum.

And then maybe I'll just ask on costs. Is there anything that you're calling out from kind of a cost bucket or wood or anything like that, that you can highlight? And then I know demand is something that you can't control, but we have seen across the industry, including all the Nordics players, we've seen some of the smaller guys also extend and take commercial downtime in a lot of their facilities. Do you think we're finally at a point now where the industry just has to close capacity?

Yes. But, I think -- was your question on input costs, I think it was.

Yes, input costs, first.

Sorry, I know that's a sort of Mondi terminology. Yes, on our input costs, it's played out as I expected at the half year. The environment is pretty benign. So pretty flat on input costs, which I think, again, gives you some sign that the economy, particularly around Europe is flat. We have seen some relief obviously, on PFR. And I also said at the half that our own initiatives, if you like, to be more competitive and buy better than the competition are coming through. So the second half is panning out as we thought small positives, but frankly, we'll take those right now. Because we need to work on it. Andrew?

Yes. And on the capacity closures, I mean, absolutely, there's huge pressure right now. And frankly, every -- the industry profitability levels more broadly are such that there's every incentive for closures. Clearly, the one that gets most visibility is recycled containerboard. I know everyone has their own calculations, but you can easily see 30%, 40% of the industry right now is cash negative, I would say, in terms of if you look at the cost curve. That is clearly not a sustainable position. We, as you know, there are some -- there have been some movements in that regard. I suspect there needs to be more and there's every incentive for more capacity closures on that front. As you would expect, we always look at our own portfolio in that regard, but that are well positioned on the cost curve. And also, we have a big virgin position, which is a different dynamic. It's not really a cost dynamic -- sorry, a supply side dynamic other than the knock-on effect of the overcapacity in recycled containerboard. So there's huge incentive for closures. There's every reason to believe there should be more closures and the longer the situation currently prevails, pressure there is for those closures to take place. And in other sectors, I would say, in this kraft paper, it's a different dynamic. Clearly, that's a market where you do have the big industrial exposures, which clearly have more cyclical pressures than typical consumer applications. And so there, I see it far more as clearly a demand side cyclicality issue. At the same time, it's incumbent on us to manage based on what the market is currently doing, we are, as I say, doubling down our efforts around cost and productivity and the like, as you would expect. And responding to the market conditions in the most agile way. So, and then maybe finally on the Fine Paper side, clearly, as I said earlier, the cost curve in Europe has flattened out given the decline in pulp prices. That is still a big factor in your ability to drive margins in the Fine Paper business in Europe because when pulp prices go down, the high-cost unintegrated producers get some relief. But unfortunately, at the moment, all that means is there's a competition for, say, the smaller market that now exists given the demand side pressures. So, that is also, I think, causing a lot of -- it is undoubtedly causing a lot of margin pressure across the industry, and I wouldn't be surprised to see if there will be more on that front as well. So, yes, I think that's in a nutshell where we see this.

Our next raise is from Pallav Mittal at Barclays. Pallav, please unmute and go ahead.

So a couple of questions. If I recall correctly, at the half year results, you were saying we could potentially see the spread between kraftliner and testliner widening. And if I look at the indices, kraftliner actually has been more stable than testliner over the last few months and has not declined as much. But you're talking about declining selling prices. So are you saying that these indices are not capturing the actuals and are lagging behind? So that's the first question. And then secondly, just if you could confirm on your forestry fair value gain for the full year. Do you still expect around 60 million, the long-term average for the full year?

Yes. Thanks, Pallav. The fair value, I mean that's my best guess today. We booked EUR 20 million in Q3. I would expect about EUR 20 million. It is a variable number, I have to say, depends on growth rates, oil prices, et cetera. So it's -- as we know from history, it's a pretty volatile number. But here today, if everything doesn't change, which is quite, I expect another EUR 20 million. But it is a best guess, and it's a volatile number depending on a number of factors, which at balance sheet date. So it's a calculation of the balance sheet. But if you want to plug a number and plug that in, but it's a variable number.

Yes. And on the kraftliner, testliner spread, I didn't follow the exact end of the question, but I think the question was very much in the face of the testliner declines, what's been happening with kraftliner. Yes, the fact is the spread has widened. But at the same time, kraftliner prices have been coming off. I think if you look at the kind of index data and things like that, you're probably looking at over the last three months, something like EUR 90 a tonne of-ish testliner price declines, kraftliner in the order of kind of EUR 30, and I stress that's the benchmark pricing. I mean we're not going to obviously give our own pricing. So, yes, kraftliner held up better than testliner as one would expect given the supply side dynamics that exist in the two different markets. But at the same time, there is, call it, substitution between the two on the margin and the supply overhang in testliner has had some impact on the kraftliner prices, albeit they are more resilient. And so that's really the dynamic that's played out in the short-term on the tin kraftliner spread.

Thanks, Pallav. Operator?

Our next question is from James Twyman of Prescient Securities.

Thank you very much for the call. Can I just focus a little on the sack paper business. Prices have been holding up very well. It looks like they were flat in Q3. So I think the new information you're coming out with today seems to be about sack paper prices now starting to fall, which would imply that's more of a Q4 factor. Could you talk around that and whether the fall is sort of marginal as you're seeing in some of the other paper grades or whether it is significant for Q4?

Thanks, James. Yes, I mean the -- as you know, sack indices only come out kind of once a quarter, so you don't see the real price, real live pricing, for lack of a better term. There has been some price erosion through Q3. Again, one has to be careful to generalize because obviously, different markets are differently impacted. But there has been some price erosion I mean, if you look at it from the peak and as you well know, prices were going up through the first half of the year, and then they've been coming down a little bit in Q3 and then getting into Q4 as well. From peak to now, it's kind of EUR 30 to EUR 50, that order of magnitude price declines. But obviously, the peak was only there for a short period of time. So those indices, they look more -- make the market look more stable than it is, particularly in the current environment where clearly pricing is much more dynamic than a typically more stable operating environment.

If I could just quickly follow up. Regarding the merger of these two divisions, what sort of -- there must be obviously a reason for it, which must be reducing costs. What sort of scale of cost are you thinking? I mean my impression must be that it's pretty marginal looking at the assets there.

Yes. Yes, I think, James, I spoke hopefully at length about the rationale for that reorganization. It's not simply a headline cost takeout thing. It's about driving the operational efficiencies across particularly the pulp and paper operations. As I said, we have the two biggest operations in Fine Paper are actually mixed use. They essentially report into both business units and simply put, it's much easier for us to run it in a single business unit and drive all the important initiatives around, as I say, shop floor, operational excellence programs and the like, where clearly, there's huge commonality across those different pulp mills because the papermakers would hate me stuff for saying this they're taking wood in one end and they produce a paper out. The other one of them is white the other is brown. I don't want to belittle that because, of course, then when you sell it, it's sold into very different channels. And of course, we fully respect that, and we will be continuing to optimize our sales channels into the respective different customer bases. But importantly, I think there's an opportunity for us to simplify the structures to drive further improvement in our operational excellence, which is the lifeblood of particularly the pulp and paper mills.

We now take our final question from Lewis Roxburgh at Goodbody. Lewis, please unmute and go ahead.

Just two questions for me. Just on the capacity ramp-up, just is everything progressing as planned in terms of getting those assets fully operational. Just wondering if you're starting to see the efficiencies come through there? Are the costs as expected and maybe some of the benefits of going through this investment under weaker market conditions? And then just secondly, just on the moving parts in Q3, just breaking out the performance of corrugated and flexible packaging and whether that changes anything from a long-term standpoint, particularly in light of the dynamic of oversupply?

Yes, Lewis, just on the capacity, no, I mean, the sort of technical builds are behind us. Clearly, it always takes, I think, in the best of world, two, three years to optimize the ramp-up of production. Clearly, when it comes to optimizing, call it, the commercials around that, it's that much harder in a difficult market environment. By that, I mean, you introduce volumes into markets which are maybe further away than your core markets, and that has an impact on net delivered price over and above whatever the benchmark price is doing in the local markets and further to those discussions we had earlier about the FX effect, those sort of things also play into it. So that's very much the focus. And of course, then the cost structure itself needs to be optimized over time because, again, you don't just turn these things on and all the costs are fully optimized. So we are working on those. At the moment, we're working on obviously developing out the commercial offering alongside the technical ramp-up that takes place. So, that's we focus very much on the paper machines in the converting businesses where, as you know, we've also invested. Again, we're very confident in the technical capacity and the like. Again, it's about making sure you bring that volume into the markets in a sustainable and disciplined way, and that is what we are currently working at the moment. But very clearly, we make bones about the fact that, that is a particular challenge in what is this current long downturn, and hence, the reason we pull down the expectation in this year at least for the earnings contributions from those projects. And then finally, this is a trading update. We're not going to give explicit sort of breakdowns by business segments in terms of the profitability. But having said all that, I mean, as we said, the packaging businesses, the converting businesses were actually flat half -- I mean, sorry, quarter-on-quarter on a sequential basis, which I think in the current environment is actually all credit for achieving that. At the same time, the paper business is, yes -- sorry, the packaging paper business is not where they should be. But at the same time, one fully understands it in the context of a very difficult market environment. Fine Paper, we are aware of the structural challenges. And of course, the current economic downturn has only exacerbated that in the short term, there is intense competition that is putting pressure and coupled with the pulp prices, which came off it is somewhere around EUR 200 a tonne over the last couple of few months. Now there is -- it seems as though there's a bit of a floor there. And as I'm sure you've seen some of the bigger Brazilian producers are pushing price increases at the moment, and we'll see how that unfolds over the coming months. So I hope that gives some color. Very good. Well, I think we've taken enough of everyone's time. I just wanted to finish by saying, clearly, in this current world, we remain relentlessly focused on margin management, on cost optimization and these continuous improvement initiatives to protect our value today. But importantly, I also want to stress we do remain well positioned to benefit when conditions improve. We have a low-cost asset base, very well invested and broad product offering and with our fully integrated business model, this continues to provide resilience even in the current environment and opportunity in the long term. So, with that, we remain extremely confident in the long-term sustainable growth fundamentals of our packaging businesses and our ability to deliver for shareholders. So, with that, I thank you very much for your attention. If there's any other questions during the day, please feel free to reach out to the team who are available throughout the day. So, thank you very much, and we'll close the call then.