Multi Commodity Exchange of India Limited (MCX) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good evening to all of you. I think we have today 5 mutual funds, HSBC, ICICI Pru, HDFC, SBI and Mirae. Welcome to all of you for this analyst meet. And since you know the company, you have been staying invested in this company for long, I don't think I need to introduce anything about the company. I think you can straight away fire questions, whatever you have. So yes, HSBC, please?

Yes, maybe if we can start off with the transition that is happening on the software side to TCS. Now what are the things that are pending and where have we reached?

Okay. See, by and large, the piece, what is needed for trading for day-to-day operations are in place. So it's going on more or less smoothly. We don't find any issues. The only thing that we kept for post go-live, which is our regulatory piece, is in negative pricing and negative pricing is a black swan event and once in a blue moon it may happen. But nonetheless, we would like to implement it as early as possible. Certain schedule or the guidelines have been -- or dates have been submitted to SEBI. We would like to strictly go by that. And that's what we are urging TCS also to complete this as committed to SEBI. This is one part of it. The second part of it is some operational ease of doing business in terms of technology, that's what is being done. So those, like, for example, auto [ INSC ] approval, that means when institutional trades are done, the custodian may be giving INR 50 crore limit, INR 100 crore limit, so those trades need not go to the custodian every time for acceptance, et cetera. So if a limit is given, up to that limit, it should be automatically approved and beyond that, maybe it has to go to. So that is some functionality. It is almost all tested and everything is in place, we should be able to introduce it shortly. Similarly, the API-based allocation, deallocation. So these are operational issues where brokers understand what is the utility of it. So they are all in the process of getting released. But did it stop us doing business? My answer is, no. So this is one part of it. But all the same, a new system is a new system, and we have replaced the engine of an aircraft while we are flying at 30,000 feet. Any more further experimentation that we want to do it, we have to thoroughly test it. Even if it is a new contract, on the same pattern as we have currently, still, we would like to test it thoroughly. So that is what is happening. Some of the contract approvals we have received like cotton seed washed oil and we have got sunflower washed oil again, the gold 10-gram contract monthly. These are all the things we wanted to -- similar contracts are there in the system, yet we wanted to introduce it in our UAT system and then test it thoroughly and including for load and do it. And I must acknowledge and happily share with you, post migration, our volumes also almost would have doubled. You all must have noticed it, okay? And the system has taken it in its stride. And hardly any capacity utilization is -- hardly anything despite us doubling of volumes. So in that sense, we are really in a good, safe zone and there's no need to embark on any expansion or any kind of capacity. But there are guidelines when we should trigger, what you call, expansion. It's supposed to be 1.5x of the peak expected load is what regulations say. So they are all looking into it, our IT, all that -- those kind of regulations. But yes, we are at this point in time in a very safe zone.

Sir, in the month of November, you mentioned that latency is around 380 microseconds for 80% of the trade and around 540 to 580 for all the trades. How has that number been now?

See, once in a while, it is getting disturbed, okay, especially when -- we have increased -- when the volumes are -- there's what is called a microburst, okay? So in a split of a second, huge spike comes, then some packets are missing, data packets and maybe some data feed vendors also complain. So we increased the bandwidth for this tick by tick, this one to 300 mbps. Now -- so we didn't find that who've ever adopted for that kind of thing. And so whenever that happens, this one will increase. Similarly, we have noticed when some security tools were deployed in data bases, we were told that, that is also increased because it keeps scanning for some, what you call, hash values or IOCs, whatever they call it in technical terms. Don't expect me to -- I'm using it like a parrot, but then the meanings of it I do not know. But essentially, it checks for those characteristics of a malware. So for which they keep polling it. So that will again eat up the resources, consume. So some of these activities were doing it. So they are moderating it. They are, what you call, optimizing it. So I think it's there. We are currently there at that, 90 percentile. But if it is beyond 90 percentile, there is some increase in the, this one, latency.

What is top 80% trade latency now, if we exclude the burst? Has it reduced or has it remained the same or has it increased?

It is around 300-odd, 350, it remains there by and large, but volume has increased.

Correct. That is the reason I was asking. And then secondly is...

And it will further come down because some more investments we are doing it in the segregation of storages, we are doing it. That is expected to further reduce the latency.

And sir, second question is, what we are doing now to make sure that a Feb 13 like event doesn't happen again where there was a delay in opening of the exchange?

That has happened for a variety of our reasons. To begin with, it was in -- there were some operational manual error, okay? Some process was run before some other process got ended. So it has its own consequent impact, then we need to restore it, et cetera, et cetera. Having said this, we also learned that we were generating 2 types of files. One is the XML, other one is the CSV file. Now 99% of the members are using CSV files. But XML files take some more time. On that day, when the system generated -- CSV files were generated almost by 9:30, 10, but the other ones took time. Then it's again, with hindsight, we are talking. And then we've done a survey of it with all the member brokers. Hardly half a dozen or maybe 10 people are using it. So we told them, you migrate it to CSV, so that we are discontinuing it with effect from 1st May. We have already issued a circular. So no XML files will be generated, only CSV. We've already issued a circular to the member brokers. So what I wanted to say is we wanted to reduce the time. Unlike equity exchanges, where they are shut by 3:30, we are there till 12 midnight. Again, you have to be ready up for 9:00. So that is what the challenge is. And the window is very small.

Sir, just on that TCS charges also, one clarification. So where we are on the charges side? Do you see these charges now being the way they are now in the coming quarters as well? Or would there be any significant change?

When it comes to charges, I don't know whether there's any separation that is given in the cost structure. But as we have said, for 6 years, it is locked in. There's no problem about it.

Not even inflation or...

No. No inflation. Nothing. We have provided for an ex rate of single-digit percentage growth is what we have provided and first year is free, in the sense warranty period. And then whatever has to kick in, that will kick-in post October.

Okay. Single-digit growth rate?

Growth. Isn't it...

Yes, that's what inflation...

Those in like continuation to what were saying. Last quarter, we had a cost of, say, INR 24 crores [indiscernible]. That comes to around yearly around INR 100 crores roughly, but in the call we said, it could be in the range of around INR 50 crores, including depreciation. So was it -- are we taking the cost higher, so this is higher or are we seeing this to come down?

See, currently, we are using a lot of premium services, okay, which I also said in the call, the Red Hat, DB2, IBM that is, Dell, other thing because we want everybody to be around -- when there's a problem, they will fix it. Now that stability issues are there still, but then that may come in the night, okay? So we want them to be here. Once those premiums services are brought down to the standard services, costs will also go down. That's point number. Number two, some of these costs, which you are saying, maybe some manpower costs are also we have hired from external sources, vendors. So it will come down. When I say the INR 60 crore, it is not exactly INR 60 crore is the upper limit or anything like that. But yes, you should take it as 10%, 15% for down kind of. But I want more than anything else irrespective of what number we see. You must give maybe another 2 quarters for the cost structure to become stable. Then thereafter, we can look at what it will.

The INR 60 crore number is after the first year warranty...

Again, I'm saying it, don't go by the 60 number. You wait for the cost structure to be stable. And then by that time, warranty period also will come to an end.

And sir, one rather simplistic question. You mentioned that you allow for a single-digit percentage increase in the business.

Linked to CPA.

Got it. So sir, when you do your annual budgeting exercises, et cetera, sir, when you build in certain revenue growth or certain business growth, what kind of thought process, how should we think of growth in futures and options going ahead? What is your thought process when you do your own budgeting exercises for the year?

Well, we can explain the binomial distribution is what we have taken into consideration or a curve. We have prepared it and presented to the Board. This is how we will grow in option. This is how we will grow in future is the way that he has presented it. And the targets are high feed for us, but that is for us to deliver. And that's what it is. That's what we look at it. So it's not a linear curve.

It's based on some probability distribution mechanics.

He doesn't want to disclose it, but I think it's not fair to...

No, just want to know the thought process....

It is well established in that sense.

So what about the new contracts that we could introduce on the gold and silver side, nondelivery based?

Nondelivery cash-settled contracts?

Yes, yes.

But there is no cash-settled contracts...

So are we planning to introduce?

We won't get any permission on nondelivery because these are all from day 1, they are all delivery-based contracts. Why do you need cash-settled contracts and see if these contracts are doing well, is the question that they will ask. We will have no answer. So you can expect in index products some new products to be brought out. Like currently, we have BULLDEX is doing well, cash-settled product. On that, we can look at options. But again, we will design it and then send it to SEBI and then we'll take them if provides.

Sir, in the past 1, 2 years, where we've seen this kind of growth, can you talk about 3, 4 initiatives from your side, which would have helped? So some would have definitely been in the market coming up, but what would have been your successful initiatives which have helped the volume growth?

See, one is this -- a lot of algo players have joined this. [indiscernible] other things, the number is increasing. That is something which has substantially picked up. And yes, options contract is another one. While we have introduced it and then loved it, but then subsequently, we have given a lot of fillip to these option contracts. The other one is the mini contracts, which has also helped us to add more volume to this. And the retail participation has started increasing substantially. Earlier, that was not there, okay? Now it has gone up. So I think this year, we had got almost 9 lakh-odd [indiscernible] actively traded against 6 lakh. So that's a big number, big jump. Well, having said this, I caution you, and I temper your expectations vis-a-vis the equity exchanges because we are not like you can enter into a market with an INR 10 or INR 100 investment or INR 1,000 investments. The contract value itself is maybe INR 3 lakhs, INR 5 lakhs, INR 10 lakhs, whatever it is. So, so much of investment is needed as an upfront margin. So, so many small investors will not come. That's where we have to be careful.

Which is good in a way.

I don't know it's good or not. But then if it is good for it, then it should be good for the other exchanges also. Why it is not so?

Sir, any kind of concern that you have heard from the regulator side in terms of this good increase in volumes? Have they sounded anything which...

It's other way. They have not expressed any concern or anything, first of all. They expect us to make sure that the markets are lean, run and adequate supervision surveillance is there. And everybody is doing their bit and making -- I mean, playing a -- fair play is being organized in this way, are seen. But having said that, the concern should be, if at all, there should be, that why your markets are not growing as much as it has to be? That is the way it should because at this point in time, our market is not big. It's very small as compared to many international markets, okay? And as compared to the size of the equity markets, it's very small. Now when I'm saying small, it's not the number of participants. It is the number of the physical market that is there in this country. How much of the physical market is integrated into the commodity markets? Hardly anything. So that is what the area that we must focus on. That's something which we are not able to do it. While we keep making attempts and that is something which we've a lot of scope for. Physical marketplace are not fully onto our platform, and there's a huge scope for that.

Sir, on that backdrop, have we done any analysis ever as to what is the color of these traders in terms of, say, Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3? Or how many make profit? How many loss? The way it was disclosed in equity some time back, some 90% apparently make...

That is SEBI has conducted some -- organized some study to be conducted.

For commodities also?

No, no, for equity market that was. But let me hold good here as well, may hold good. But the point I'm making is, see, it is speculators who take your risk. The hedges who hedge their risk. So there is somebody who is needed to take that risk, no? So we -- not that everybody will not make money, okay? Now in the case of the commodities, the point we are making is, the hedges think this is also a market which they can play using their physical resources or if they make loss here, they think it is really a loss without realizing that the physical book they have made profit. Hedge is, obviously, one side, they sell it. Then other side, they buy. Position will be there. It will have a countervailing effect, isn't it? So net-net, there is a 0 loss, 0 profit kind of thing. But they don't consider that. If they lose money, they really think that they have lost money.

Okay. Just to continue on hedging. So we have seen a very sharp crash in derivative market, right, I mean, currently derivative. So post that, how do you see that hedging for the commodity will shape up, especially from...

I don't know when currency market, any foreign participants are there or why they are there, okay? But we are introducing -- we have introduced for us many option contracting. One of the intensions is to address the alternative revenues for the people who are participating in the currency markets. That's point number one. Number two, that if currency markets have to function only purely for hedging purpose, I don't think anywhere in the world, any market will work only clearly for hedging purpose because both sides will not have the same requirement at the same time. So obviously, the number of participants will be far and few in between. So I mean you need speculators, you need financiers.

Sir, when we think about new products, like you mentioned, some of the agri products are in pipeline and one of the gold contract is also in pipeline. What is the thought process behind introducing new products? How do you kind of prioritize and select which ever is new...

I'm sorry, I missed it. Something else was crossing my mind. Yes, go ahead.

No worries. What I'm saying is that when you introduce new products, what is the thought process behind selecting those new products and then prioritizing which products you want to introduce faster to the market?

Excuse me, one urgent call, please. Sorry, what -- how do we select? We look at both buy side and sell side. There should be adequate number of participants, okay? If it is an oligopoly or monopoly kind of thing, then things will not work, okay? So both sides you need adequate. And whether there are imports, exports are there in this market -- in the product also, we look at it. Third, we also look at the regions where it is grown or where it is consumed, et cetera, because that is where we need to set up the delivery centers. That is important for us. For example, here, aluminum we made the Raipur as the main center. Earlier, we had Thane. We made Raipur. Because most of the industry parties are located in the Eastern region. And later on, it picked up like anything, Raipur, because whosoever wants to consume, they all go to that side and then bring it. So if you have Raipur as the delivery center, it helped for many people who are in this industry. The other thing is if we look at the volatility also, whether there are any price controls or whether there is any volatility -- free market is there, whether adequate volatility is there. If there is no volatility, then there's nobody -- I mean, there will be no trading, hardly any trading. So these are the factors, which I can think of. Anything you would like to add, 1 or 2 additionally, you can add.

If we look at the physical market and if at all there are any reference wallets...

Yes, that's important.

More importantly, what kind of -- how much the spot market is growing. Spot prices are very [indiscernible] because whatever your price is, that depend on [indiscernible]. So more efficient the market and if you are able to get it. Also one is availability of the price, second is how volatile the price because if at all it is not volatile, there is no need of anything.

Sir, what is currently top 5 or top 10 brokers' share to your overall options volume?

It's about 55% or 60%, what else...

There is no significant change. In fact, it is...

What is the number?

Top 10 is 63%.

This is in options only or total?

It is total.

And out of these, how many are high frequency?

High frequency, so you can look at the algo number that is, it is 52%.

Not 52% of 63. It is 52%.

Total, yes.

And sir, you mentioned that there is -- right now, there is a huge disconnect between the physical and the exchange market. Wouldn't this also be a hindrance to, let's say, having a larger FPI participation in the future because that is something that has been talked about, but we don't know how liquidity or depth will be built for them to participate meaningfully?

Look, currently, FPIs are allowed only in cash [indiscernible]. So it requires some more journey before they are allowed into the other products, okay? Before FPIs are allowed, we want mutual funds to be allowed in the -- at least in metals where -- which are nonperishable commodity. Even there, it is not allowed because -- allowed in a sense, the holding period is 30 days. In 30 days, how will anybody be able to trade? And unlike in gold, where they have increased it to 180 days. But it is about 30 days. We have been representing it. And good that I'm speaking to the industry only, we have also recently met the -- your CEO [ industry ]. We have given 3, 4 letters to CEO requesting them, these are the 1, 2, 3 things that we want the industry to pursue it. It's not that MCX ask, it should be the industry ask. But unfortunately, industry itself is not showing so much of interest. That's what we got there. So we have requested them to pursue that. We have given that. For example, you're supposed to hold only LBMA gold. Why LBMA? On one hand, you say the in India, good delivery should be permitted, but the SEBI regulation or the circular says LBMA gold. So obviously, when I'm giving delivery on the exchange platform, we can't guarantee that you will only get LBMA bar. You may get some other domestic bar also.

Any exchange has to integrate with the broker, how complex or how long it does take?

I didn't understand.

Any exchange has to participate with the trading...

Exchange has to participate with the trading...

Exchange has to be live on a trading...

But then if any trading number has to be onboarded, okay, it is just plug and play. You have CTCL vendors. You keep your system steady and then test it. You have a testing environment is available. You test it. Matt is the one member -- not admin, terminal [Foreign Language]. It's testing buddies, they test it. And then if you are okay, then next day, you connect it. And before that, if you want to do small volumes, then you can use the Internet, not even lease line. Lease line will take some time, feasibility, et cetera, to be checked. Using the Internet you can trade.

Sir, on premium to notional, basically, that trajectory is declining and that is how it should be. As notional volume picks up, the premium to notional ratio should fall also. But in March month, it was like fairly steep at -- came at only 1.5% around. So that is expected to continue? Or you expect there was some one-off in it or something? Because the notional volume has continued to go up. If we see April YTD -- or MTD also, it is fairly high.

See, while historically, what is happening elsewhere, if that is what is to be replicated here, you're right, it's supposed to come down. But this capricious behavior of this relationship, we have not as yet got a full handle on it, why it is behaving this way. But you're right, even when the volumes were right, it was 2% also sometime in one of the months and then it has come down to 1.6%. So we are still doing our own...

April is 1.8% now.

April number is not out yet.

Exit is 1.5% for March.

For March, 1.5%.

See, what you have to look at is...

Some understanding on how you projected revenue that will be really helpful, sir. Whatever exercise you did, if you can -- whatever in you're limited...

We will do it on a conservative basis only, we do that, okay? So much I can say. What is that number or how do we project it, we will not be able to...

Not the number exactly, but follow-up to his question on how to think about future option, what all parameters probability, it will be helpful.

But as we have said in the past also, I think how much 1:3 ratio or something we have given it, isn't it? If we have future equivalent, so they should go by that because there is an underlying number, okay? Underlying number is 1.5% or 1.6%.

That way you can do it. But what I'm saying to that ratio is it [indiscernible]. Your premium turnover depends on like when it showed a volatile effect because that is a significant factor. And also, what is the duration of that existing one? Suppose, if it happen to do very near to that, [indiscernible] then automatically the ratio will come down because automatically it is very near to the expiry and people also defer to saving lot of their money, so automatically the ratio declines. But if it is still you have a lot of days, [indiscernible]. There are several factors which decides it, and it's very difficult to really determine what will be that ratio, right? Like organic growth kind of over the period of 10 years, if the volumes are growing more and more, slowly the numbers will come down because automatically, overall the growth if it's the [ Matt ]. With the amount of growth, could also consider. That is overall pie itself would have been down. The ratio will [indiscernible] all together it's a different game because [indiscernible] this number will further come down?

Weekly definitely because the duration of the contract is going to be automatically...

But that should be adequately compensated by the volume, otherwise, you will have a problem.

Okay. Yes.

Sir, what are the contingent liabilities on the exchange like yours?

Contingent liability or the income tax is what you've been giving it, yes, but we have been giving also. Yes, please explain what is that you recent...

There are different cases basically, which pertains to -- there was a special audit done by prior management prior to 2011, in which the income tax department in 2017 picked up a reassessment that we challenged in the High Court and even in the Supreme Court, the department had gone, but we won at the Supreme Court. I mean so over that, they have shown a contingent liability of around INR 140 crores.

But my question is if we have won the case, wouldn't that be reduced?

That's -- I mean, the department has gone in appeal, so they didn't...

See, in the High Court we won, then they went to Supreme Court asking for a special audit once again. Supreme Court said nothing doing, it's enough of it. So they have to now satisfy themselves with...

With whatever data they have. No special audit, nothing.

Sir, my question is a little different actually with respect to the operations. In case a fraud is detected, will there be any liability on the exchange, that's the one? Or if there are outages actually beyond the reasonable limit, are there liabilities arising out of these circumstances?

We have -- yes, you have anything to say?

Some -- I mean we don't have any such instance where we have to do a contingent liability at this point in time. And there's no fraud detected so far. I mean there's is no fraud, let me clarify. And you have an insurance cover for the cyberattacks, et cetera.

We have adequate insurance policy.

For outages also? Let's say, there was one recent incidence and there are liabilities on account of those things also?

It depends on whom the liability is on, isn't it? So there is a carve-out from the D&O policy also, the CTO and is covered under that. And the company is also covered under that. There's carve-out from the D&O policy for that.

So I do not understand fully. So is it unlimited, let's say, it was...

No, no. So even that also is not unlimited.

It won't be unlimited.

So ideally, whenever there is an outage beyond the specific point of time, we get penalized by the regulator. This time, we did not get any penalties from regulator because of this, we were beyond 45 minutes?

No, it's beyond 45 minutes. But then here, our subject is that trading has not started at all, okay? If your trading has started, there will be an open interest created and then people have -- will have -- they could not exit all that kind of thing. Whatever open interest is there, that is the previous days open interest anyway, okay? So much is the risk is anyway you have taken it. If there's a holiday also, you will take the risk, okay? But there's no intraday risk that has been -- anybody has been exposed to, trading is not started.

With that exercise, which you mentioned that was done for the board where you projected volumes, et cetera, just your thought process in understanding the underlying parameters which will lead to the growth?

I don't know whether I will be able to give you those numbers or those parameters. Because again, I will land in trouble with the regulators or somebody else, which I don't want to get into it as a listed company. But I think you're all good at doing that modeling. So I think you should be able to project it and -- in fact few of you do it and then publish it probably, we will be able to learn what is that best-suited model.

Sir, another thing is the way regulator has been saying not directly, but nowadays a duopoly, the way equity derivatives have grown, do you think that can be a duopoly, if you continue to grow like this in options, which you have, there will be -- you can say, in a way, forced duopoly from the other commodity exchange also?

Where is duopoly, I just want to know?

No, right now you have the highest market share.

That is monopoly, no, at this point.

I'm talking about -- referencing it to equity derivatives. Equity derivatives, now it has started from exchange, which was 0% to now 17% market share in derivatives.

My view is that is also a monopoly because what is traded on NSE is not traded on BSE. Nifty is Nifty and Sensex is Sensex. So in that point -- from that point of this is a monopolistic situation they are in. But ACC is traded at both the places, future is traded, then that is duopoly in that sense.

And sir, in terms of operating leverage, I wanted to understand if our volumes grow, what is the kind of employee expenses or other expenses growth that we can expect?

As I said, you give us 2 more quarters, I'm sure all this will be settled. As I said, there will be some excess, we may have taken some consultants, okay, for a specific cost. The job is done. We have been giving a 1-month contract or 1 quarter contract. Contract is over. Now it's done. So you will not see that.

So that is settling part. I'm asking more about after it settles, what kind of growth is needed to maintain the -- if there are incremental volumes, say X, do we need to increase...

My personal view is over the past 5 years, the manpower costs did not go up because the volumes are increasing. There's no [indiscernible]. Maybe the regulatory front, the requirements will be increasing it. We need to have a greater supervision of the member brokers or whatever that is happening in the marketplace, you need to regulate or on the cybersecurity point of view, additional requirements may come, for which -- we have invested a good amount of money in the last 2 years on cybersecurity, okay? Several measures have been taken. So we need to see that, that kind of expenses will come but not otherwise.

Can you also explain a little bit how [indiscernible].

Well, see, maybe at the consolidated level, you should not find SGF can be an issue at all, okay? I am saying if the contribution is going to SGF, interest will continue to earn in SGF and SGF is something which is helpful for the -- for this growth of the business. Why? Because the margins are kept very high because the SGF fund is low. The more fund is -- more money is put in SGF, then your margins can be brought down. And we did that. Recently, we have removed 7% margin crude oil and in natural gas and maybe 1.5% or 2% in gold, silver, we've brought it down, silver. So as a result of it, the open interest increases, then SGF requirement increases. In fact, we would like to contribute more and more to SGF, okay, so that these volumes will increase. While money is not lost anywhere because SEBI has also come out with another regulation whenever the SGF requirement goes down because, we consider also from SGF, okay? So in a sense, you can take it back, okay? So we have never resorted to it. That's different matter. So you can reduce the margins and then increase the -- earn extra revenue. Even if the increase in -- even if the volumes go up to the extent that the margin is reduced, so that without brokers putting additional margin, only the same margin is put in the same business, okay, whatever decision, you will see a good amount of growth.

Sir, there's [indiscernible] take money out of SGF because we are aware that if money goes into SGF [indiscernible]...

That was earlier, but it is about 6 months or so there is a circular from SEBI. Done? Anything else?

[indiscernible].

Why are you anxious to have intra-operability? That may harm exchange interest. It happened in the case of BSE, NSE. Why I'm saying is, what we are asking for at this point in time, and that is almost all the ask -- unanimous ask of the member brokers also that as far as collateral is concerned, you don't give me collateral. If something is lying with NSE, be that so. But at the end of 3:30, if member says there's so much lean being imposed in favor of MCX or CCL, then so much they will communicate to the MCX, CCL, then we will allot that usage here, members brokers will use it. Then again, in next day morning, whatever is left out or if there is some unutilized amount, again, give it back to them. So that itself is good enough interoperability, more than enough. We will be able to utilize optimally the resources without taking -- keeping one set of money here, another set there, third set in somewhere else...

[indiscernible].

That is what my expectation. And it improves the efficiency of capital that is deployed in the capital market. The brokers are all for it.

One question is, practically, under what scenario will MCX think to change the pricing of the contracts both in futures and options?

Under what scenarios you would like us to change it? See, the regulator always expects us to be making profits, not profit [ cleaning ], that's what they say. So if you are really under stress, I can understand. So frequent changes are not expected. If we introduce one more slab to increase volumes and lower slab, maybe that may be encouraged, but definitely not increase in this one. So keeping that in view, we have discussed it in our member advisory committee meeting the tariff structure also and where the members are at part of that. So a small group will be constituted and who will actually discuss the tariff structure. And we did place before them. Don't expect lowering it. We may not raise it. But it's important to keep in mind that we need to expand. We need to, what we call, we don't know when the [ solo ] requirement will come. And we don't know when the new projects like [indiscernible] we have been thinking, we have been talking, but then nothing happened on this front because we need to get regulatory permissions that have not been pursued. So all these things require more funds, probably we need to have it. And recently, we have spent -- okay, recently, we spent money, I mean, on this new technology platform also. So there's no room for reduction is what we have communicated. And so they will look into it. Great. Thank you. Thanks to all of you. Thank you, I enjoyed the, what you call, interactions with you over the last many years, and I myself have been enriched because of the [Audio Gap].