National CineMedia, Inc. (NCMI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Thank you, everyone, for joining us today. We are pleased to have Tom Lesinski, the CEO; and Ronnie Ng, the CFO of National CineMedia, here with us. Thank you guys for joining us. Tom, why don't we start this session with a brief overview of NCM and its core capabilities, and then I'll go into some questions.

Great. Thanks for having us, Eric. It's great to be here. I think this is my third trip to Boston with JPM and have been a great supporter of ours. I appreciate it. So when you walk into a movie theater, from the time you walk in to the time you leave, all the advertising that happens in that theater is pretty much controlled by National CineMedia. So we are the largest cinema advertising company in the United States. We get about 650 million people a year coming through theaters, and whether they see an ad exposure from us on a screen or in the lobby or on popcorn bags or any promotional materials, that's us. We've got about 21,000 screens across the country. We have approximately 70% to 75% of the opening weekend box office in terms of the actual number of theaters. We have 4 of the top 5 exhibitors including AMC, Cinemark, Regal and Harkins. And we've got -- roughly about 10 -- of the top 10 DMAs, 9 of the top 10, we have almost 75% of the share. We've got 50 other additional affiliates in our network beyond the big 4. And most importantly, the advertising that we controlled is not just before the movie in the preshow, but we reengineered the company to have advertising after showtime. So if the movie starts at, I'm making it up, 7:10, from 7:10 to 7:15, we have advertising running. And we also have what's called the Platinum Spot, which we'll talk about a little bit later that runs right before the last trailers. But we've been at this almost 20 years, and what's exciting about our company, particularly is the margin structure, which is in the mid-40s. And prior to COVID, we had a very consistent business with almost 10 years in a row of $200 million or so in EBITDA. So it's an interesting time for our company. We're coming out of a 2-year COVID, sort of, hibernation. And I think we're excited to actually have, like our first real year where the governments have not mandated any form of closures in our theater business.

Perfect. So let's talk a little bit about the industry, and then we'll get into some company-specific questions. So obviously, the theater business has been impacted by COVID. And so Tom, maybe just talk for a brief minute on the state of the theater sector regarding attendance or mask requirements. And do you expect anything in the future? Are people going back to the movies now? How should we think about that?

Okay. So finally, after 2 years of on-and-off mask mandates and state, local and federal guidelines, there are no more restrictions in the movie theaters. And for the first time, really going into the summer, we have an unencumbered consumer experience that doesn't require any intervention. So the network is fully up. Unlike last year, which was on again, off again, not knowing what the rules were and a lot of fear. In fact, from consumers of being in large public venues, that is no longer the case. So as people go out to see Top Gun this summer, they'll be able to go to a movie experience for the first time in 2 years without worrying about safety issues, without worrying about wearing a mask and without really worrying about any compromise experience. So the movie business is finally back. You've seen already this past 6 months. A movie like Spider-Man opened, became the fifth biggest movie of all time. Batman also did equally well, and everyone expects Top Gun and some of these other big summer movies, including Jurassic World this weekend to be as big as they would have been in 2019.

So how is sentiment among moviegoers, studios and advertisers changed over the past 6 months as we've seen those movies get released? And what demo is actually going back to the movies?

So I'm going to spend a little time talking about each of the 3 segments. So let's talk about moviegoers first. Obviously, we track a lot of consumer behavior in terms of people's interest in going to movies. Just in the past 4 months, 90% of our core demo, the 18- to 34-year-old, has gone back to a movie. So that's pretty great, right? When you think about what happened 2 years ago. Of those people who are generally looking at going to a movie, 89% are comfortable going to a movie theater. So as it relates back to the COVID mandates, there is a delivery of people coming back to the theaters. I want to talk a little bit sort of specifically about the different demographics that are coming back. We know that the Millennial, Gen Z crowd has come back. But recently, 2 big family movies, Sonic the Hedgehog and Bad Guys, both delivered a large family audience where nearly 60% of the audience was families with kids because there was a concern, are families going to come back and are kids going to come back. So that's been great. And then the other thing is are older women going to come back. In the movie Lost City, 62% of the audience was females. And then finally, this past weekend Downton Abbey, which may or may not be in any of your demographics, but it was in my wife's, over half that audience was over the age of 60. So there was a concern at one point by marketers and by exhibitors, is there going to be a broad comeback? And obviously, the young people came back first. But now what we've seen is women, families with kids and even older adults coming back to movies, which is important. So that's the consumer part of it. The second part of it is really the studios. And 2 years ago, the studio started an experiment day-and-date releases, direct to streaming, which largely didn't really prove out. What we have today is a marketplace where the theatrical experience is now being windowed exclusively for the most part at around 45 days. Historically, the windows have been longer than that. But what I can tell you is that 45-day window of exclusive distribution covers about 98% of a theatrical title's initial receipts. So when you think about how much you're covering in that 45 days, 98% of the ticket sales are covered in that time, which is really important. So all the major studios today, versus 2 years ago, are giving 45 -- a minimum of 45-day windows. A movie like Top Gun, by the way, doesn't even have an announced window. It may play for 4 months. So we finally have the studios back into a more traditional distribution windowing situation, which is encouraging for all of us. And then finally, and lastly, are the advertisers. That's the third part of the stool, and that's the part that Ronnie and I care the most about. So historically, the advertisers bought a lot of money in the upfront and bought in scatter as well. In our last upfront exercise, which was a year ago today, most of the theaters were still not open. And as a result, the theater -- the advertisers were tentative about knowing what they could commit to. The new upfront started literally 3, 4 weeks ago and is in progress right now. And then what we're seeing is all of the legacy advertisers back in active discussions and negotiations with us for the first time. So we had a 2-year hiatus of consumers and studios and advertisers and now it's all finally getting back to normal. So we're relieved that we got through it. We've met with over 300 clients in person just in the last 3 months. So we're optimistic about how the industry turns itself around. It's a really great business, and we just got dealt a difficult set of cards over the last 2 years.

So as the studios start to increase the volume of theatrical releases, including films like Top Gun, which are going to be hugely exciting, and I can't wait to see personally, where do you see the 2022 and 2023 box office relative to 2019 prior to COVID?

So it's really interesting. We have probably the best data set of any company in terms of having a sense of what's really going on. We have data from pretty much every movie theater in the country. We have 20 years of that data. We also have direct access to the studios and of course, all the pundits and all the analyst data. So when you look at an industry and you try to triangulate who has the best sort of judgment of what's going to happen, I think we actually have probably the best point of view of at least what this year and next year looks like. Having said that and having worked at a movie studio for 20 years, it's very hard to predict individual movies and it's hard to predict overall. Having said that, we haven't given official guidance, but we are probably consistently at around 70% estimate of what we think the -- of the box office will be this year compared to 2019. And I think it could end up being higher than that. As it relates to next year, which is probably the most pivotal year in the movie business, '23, I think it could be -- again, there's a bit of a spread in terms of all of the forecasts that are out there, anywhere from 80% of 2019 to 105%. I'm not going to give you a -- like actual guidance, but I think 80% is conservative.

So Tom, I want to talk about Netflix for a second. Obviously, their subscriber growth slowed significantly in the last quarter, and there's been some conversation around them putting their films into the theater. What does what's happened with Netflix lately mean for the theater business and for your business?

Yes. So for the long time, Netflix was the darling of the equity markets. I think it's the best-performing stock in the last decade. And I think ultimately, the studios wanted to copy that model because they felt that the benefit they were getting from investors was attractive. And you saw a huge pivot from Disney and HBO Max and others into the streaming space, particularly during COVID. And I think when there was the euphoria of streaming being endless and everyone's models just heading growth going on forever and ever -- when Netflix finally came down to earth in the last few months, I think ultimately, it bred some caution into the whole industry and that streaming may not be the ultimate alternative, and it may not be the best use of capital or the best use of content. So I think what happened is it certainly put a pause in the strategy of many of these media companies, and I think that's good for the exhibition business. And everyone who's been around exhibition knows that the best way to launch a cultural phenomenon and a franchise is through a theatrical release first. So that's all positive. I think the other alternative or the other outcome of this is that Netflix now is having very serious negotiations with the exhibitors about releasing their content in theaters. And while it had been done sporadically and on a more limited basis for the last 5 years, I do believe you're going to see more, call it, streaming content, getting a theatrical window, which will certainly benefit the exhibitors. So all in all, I think the future in terms of number of releases is going to increase based on what's happening with Netflix and with others, whether it's Apple or even Disney+ titles getting a theatrical release.

Okay. And then last question on the sector, and we'll get the company-specific questions in a moment. You sort of touched on this a little bit in a few of your answers already. But to be very specific, how do you expect the relationship between studios and exhibitors to evolve long term? During COVID, there's a lot of experimentation around direct to streaming, some probably worked, some probably didn't. So what do you see as the long-term relationship between studios and exhibitors?

I think it's going to be a little bumpy because each movie is going to be treated separately. There was very much of a cookie-cutter approach to releasing movies for probably 50 years. And I think now, while 45 days will be kind of the norm, there will certainly be plenty of movies that have a longer window than that, and there'll be some with less. So what will be a little difficult from just forecasting this is how do you predict over a course of 300 or 400 movies in a year, which ones have a longer and which ones have a shorter window. And I think for the most part, the big tentpole movies are going to get very long windows theatrically, the small ones will probably be shorter, and then those in the middle will be sort of be the wildcard. I don't think there's going to be a lot of premium video on-demand day-and-date releasing. I think that was a test that largely proved out to be not a good model during COVID. But I think the studios took advantage of the COVID situation to test things that would have been highly disruptive to an industry but got away with it because everyone was at home, and they used it as an opportunity to try different things. So I think a lot of it has come back to its senses. By the way, HBO Max, as you know, during the launch of HBO Max said, "Hey, we're going to put every movie on day and date." And obviously, they've changed their tune beginning in January of this year. I think also the new Chairman, CEO of -- or COO of Warner Discovery has made it really clear that he's a big proponent of the theatrical distribution model. And that's certainly a change to where Warner's was even a year ago. I think Disney is a little bit of a wild card in all of it, just because they have so gone all in on Disney+ and reorganized their company around Disney+, that it may be harder for them to pivot. But -- the most important thing is that the talent, whether it's the agents, the actors, the directors, they very much want to see their movies in theaters, and there's a tremendous amount of pressure being applied by the biggest talent and biggest agencies to really get the studios to guarantee that there's going to be a theatrical release. So you're seeing more and more of that happening. And hopefully, things will get back to normal, but I think this 2-year experiment is mostly behind us.

Perfect. So let's focus on NCM. Just talk a little bit more about the upfront. You mentioned in your prior remarks that it's been 3 or 4 weeks and you're seeing improvement relative to nothing during COVID, which is great. But please be a little more specific around what you're seeing in terms of CPMs, in terms of volumes and in terms of which categories are putting orders in for the upfronts.

So for those of you who may not be familiar with the sort of the rhythm of the ad markets, the vast majority of advertising that's spent in the United States is booked a year ahead of time, and that's called the upfront. And it happens right about now, but this is for media really being bought for the most part next year, or running next year as well as in the fourth quarter of this year. That's called the traditional broadcast upfront. So in the last month, NCM and all of our competitors in the media space, the big networks, the big linear networks, cable networks and the digital guys, have all been in New York City pitching their business. Typically, that accounts for anywhere from 60% to 75% of media budgets. The rest is spent in scatter. Typically, the upfront market is a slightly discounted pricing model compared to what happens in scatter because you're buying it a year ahead of time, and that's the benefit you get from it. So we decided to do or take our business actually to the 3 largest markets, L.A., New York and Chicago in the past month. And we've met with almost 300 clients, many of whom are original clients, some were new clients. And we have, for the first time in 2 years, the ability to actually sell a real theatrical schedule and a real audience delivery plan that we really couldn't guarantee a year ago. So, so far, the conversations have been going extremely well. The CPM part of the discussions have been really good. We expect to maintain the CPMs that we've had since 2019. And just to give you a sense of it, there's very little media outside of NCM that's more expensive than ours. When we sell a platinum spot, which is a spot that runs right before the second to last trailer, it can go for as much as $8 million. The only kind of premium you're getting like that in all the media is really at the Super Bowl and maybe in the NBA playoffs and maybe at the Academy Awards, and even those were more expensive then. So I'm happy that the pricing has actually been fairly stable. Maintaining CPMs is really not that easy when you're charging as much as we do. But we believe with the captive nature of our audience, and delivering against an 18- to 34-year demo, which is the most desirable demo that there is in media, that we have a good shot in the upfront right now of getting back to where we were. Obviously, some advertisers left. We believe most of the legacy advertisers will come back. And I think ultimately, we'll start attracting some new advertisers. Just in the last 6 months, we've added several new categories. We never were really in the pharmaceutical -- on the pharma business, which we've added recently. The cryptocurrency people have been with us paying us in cash, which is good. And even some of the newer categories like online gambling and others are starting to advertise in theaters. So I think overall, our core advertisers continue to be pretty similar. It's everyone from the entertainment streaming companies to the auto companies, to the consumer packaged goods businesses. The arrays of our single biggest advertising category are the various streamers that are competing directly with theater big companies. So we take a company like Amazon or YouTube or even Disney+, one of their favorite places to advertisers are in the theater. And it's a little bit like fishing where the fish are, it's kind of obvious. But those are also some of the most analytical companies, too. So when we see Amazon spending tens of millions of dollars with us, we know that they're analyzing the effectiveness of that advertising. So we always point to any of our pitches. We'll say, "Hey, look, these guys, Amazon, YouTube, they know how to monitor and measure advertising." And they've been with us on the platform for almost 10 years. So I think overall the upfront, is really encouraging for us right now. We've got a really good feedback from the advertisers so far, and this will start getting wrapped up really towards the end of the summer in terms of the commitments and the budgets.

So just a quick follow-up on the Platinum Spot. You announced it in September of 2019. And just talk about the advertiser reaction to the spot and what you should expect for 2022 and beyond?

So just to remind you guys, what the Platinum Spot is, is when you're watching trailers and everyone seated in the theaters and the lights are down, typically 3 or 4 trailers run and then our Platinum 60-second spot runs and then another trailer or 2 runs right before the movie starts. So it's, by far, the most important and the most valuable piece of advertising that we have. And you could argue it's some of the most attractive advertising period. So we launched it in around be my first year as CEO in 2019 in the fourth quarter, which happened to be our most successful quarter ever. We sold 3 spots, 2 big advertisers: Cadillac, Walmart, Google, and then COVID hit in 2020. So we were basically kind of on hold until really the fourth quarter of '21, where we sold our next platinum spot. We have sold a platinum spot for 4 straight quarters, which is a real testament to how we're doing. So going all the way into Q3 of this year, we've sold the platinum spot in Q1, Q2 and Q3 as well as Q4 of last year. So I think what's important about that is it shows that even though it's really expensive, that there is demand for this unit. And for us, it's a 50% premium on our existing CPMs. So when you look at our regular ads that run in the preshow and lights down, a platinum spot gets us 50% more CPM value. And that's why we're pivoting to that. And I think we're optimistic about how our Platinum is going to sell for the rest of the year.

Why don't I pause and see anyone in the audience has any questions, or I'll keep going. Any questions? Okay, I'll keep going. So Tom, the scatter market. How do you think about the optimal mix of upfront versus scatter in '22 and beyond? And any trends you're seeing in the scatter market that are relevant?

So the secret to being good at selling media is trying to have the right mix of scatter and upfront. If you think that the economy is going to be strong, you tend to hold inventory back and you try to sell more in scatter because the closer an ad runs to the actual air date, the more expensive it is. That's just how it works. So if you're feeling really bullish, you'll hold back and maybe you'll only allocate 60% of your monies in the upfront and 40% in scatter, or it could be 70% and 30% depending on how you feel about it. So the only risk in that is if the economy gets bad, like it could be getting right now, then scatter in the third quarter could be light. So you're trying to have a bit of a prism into 12 months out. And a lot of people who are risk averse will want to put 80% of their budgets in the upfront and 20% in scatter. But if you're feeling really good about your media plan or your -- or the marketplace, you're going to put more in scatter. So we historically have been at like 60-40. I think this year, it may end up being 70-30. But it's an interesting thing when you have to factor in sort of the disruptive nature of the economy going on in the U.S. right now.

So Tom, when you became CEO, you've talked about a couple of different priorities, investing in digital assets and pursuing advertising partnerships outside of the theater. Talk a little bit more about these initiatives and sort of more broadly how you envision NCM evolving over the longer term.

So we acknowledge that in the long run, the theatrical business is a really good business, but it's relatively slow growth, if not flat from an attendance or box office point of view. So we chose to do really 2 things. 3 years ago, we started building a data business. And we did it for 2 different reasons. One is we believe we could monetize it. But two, to be a modern media company, you have to be able to link data and attribution and consumer behavior with an ad spend. It's no longer good enough to say, "Hey, you're ad ran in the theater" and not be able to come back and say, "Hey, and we know that a consumer actually did the following." So we now have hundreds of millions of data sets. We have direct data from exhibitors as well as from ticketing companies like Fandango, where we probably have the best cinema advertising data set of anybody in the United States. So what we do is we marry that data and we can track a consumer from the time they see an ad in our theater to what they do afterwards. So we recently did a test with Gilead, the big pharma company, and they wanted us to prove that if a consumer saw an ad in our theaters, would they actually go to a doctor and get a prescription for this particular drug. And actually, I wasn't certain it was going to work. But it worked in the case of Gilead, and they've come back as an advertiser again. So we can now, through all the data that we have, we can measure the exposure, we can quantify that someone saw the ad, we can quantify what they did afterwards and we can quantify it actually down to a purchase, in this case, of a prescription drug. So that was the sort of the biggest thing we've done on the diversification side. And then the second part of it is we started working with other what I would call digital out-of-home companies and selling their advertising. So we did a deal with the largest restaurant chain grocery store group, college network, and there's probably 3 or 4 others that we're looking at. We're trying to find companies that have the same demographic that we do. The restaurant one was very appealing, given how the dinner and movie thing works so well. There's a company called Ziosk in Dallas that we do all the advertising for. And the concept is, look, if you're at a movie theater, if you're at a restaurant beforehand, we can find you digitally in that restaurant and get you an ad to a movie or a promotion to a movie or we can get you after the fact. We also have a really good college network program where we're in over 1,500 universities, where we control a lot of the digital signage, very hard to reach college kids. So that's another idea that we're working on. And the goal is to find digital out-of-home companies that not only have a captive audience like the theaters but also have the same demographic as us. So you'll see more and more of that from us over the next probably 2 or 3 years as we continue to grow the business as theatrical comes back online.

So Ronnie, let me ask you a question. The company successfully navigated pandemic headwinds with support of lenders waiving covenants through 2022 and raising $100 million of additional liquidity. As cinema advertising turns around in the coming years, what are your priorities for capital structure and capital allocation?

Yes. So if you take a look at our capital structure, currently, we have $926 million of secured indebtedness and about $1.2 billion of total debt. We also have around $110 million of total cash including INC and LLC. And if you look up and down our entire capital structure, what a big asset to the capital structure is, for the most part, we have pretty low cost of debt. And we were pretty lucky that right before the pandemic hit, that we refinanced a good chunk of the debt, so we have a good runway space. Now with that said, though, we do have about $217 million of revolver coming due middle of next year. And that will be our primary focus in the near term to really find the right solution around that in the most economical way. And as you think about that, part of the reason why we actually reduced our dividend from $0.05 to $0.03 is partly related to keeping most of the options open and how we deal with that -- those upcoming maturities. But also secondly, as we look at the dislocation in capital markets over the last 3 months we were, quite frankly, protecting the liquidity for the entire system as well. So again, the other thing that we look at in our capital structure, aside from just the mid-2023 maturities, are also the December '24 maturities. And then also '25, we keep those in mind as we try to think about the more holistic solution around the capital structure. And then kind of in the long term, outside of those, we would again look to delever the business not only through growing EBITDA but also through principal pay down would be our priorities.

Perfect, thank you. Tom, a couple more questions. So to the extent M&A happens within the theatrical landscape going forward, how does that impact NCM? And how does it change the profile of your theater network?

Yes, I think it's a really good question, Eric. There's a lot of history in exhibition for consolidation, and it's certainly something everyone talks about. And I think given the financial picture of some of the big exhibitors, there seems to be an inevitability in that. Because we're the largest player in the space and the most successful and also the most profitable, we've attracted a lot of new exhibitors. So even before the consolidation happened, we added Harkins, for example, who's one of the -- who's the fifth largest exhibitor in the country. As consolidation happens, the likelihood is the biggest guys will acquire some of the smaller guys. The biggest guys are already in our network. So if they acquire another theater chain, it automatically comes into NCM. So if AMC were to buy a theater chain, it would fall directly into our business. At the end of the day, everyone believes that the exhibition business is largely over-inventoried. Some people talk about the exhibition business that is built for church on a Sunday, but the reality is, is that it's mostly like church during a regular Sunday -- or a church for Easter Sunday, excuse me, versus like a regular Sunday. So there's plenty of theaters out there, probably more than is necessary. So there's an inevitability to that. We believe we will particularly benefit on the M&A side if it starts to happen because people are going to naturally want to go to the best player in the space and also we automatically get it contractually. What I didn't mention before is our contracts are nearly 20 years with our biggest exhibitors, AMC, Cinemark and Regal, which creates a very healthy situation for us also. It's a very difficult, sort of, fenced in marketplace for us from a competitive point of view. So we're rooting for all the exhibitors to continue doing well. But inevitably, there's been consolidation in the space going back 100 years and I expect that to probably continue over the next 5 years.

Okay. So one more serious question and one fun question. So what -- if there's one theme that you think investors aren't focusing on or one thing they're underestimating about NCM, what is it?

I think as you look at traditional media companies, we sort of fall into what people consider a traditional media company, much like traditional broadcasters because cinemas have been around for 100 years. The difference with us is that the moviegoing audience is very, very young. If you look at sort of the movie business, the vast majority of people who go are young Millennial and Gen Z customers. That's completely different than what happens in the traditional television world. Just to give you a sense of it, our average demo is probably in the 20s, whereas CBS, NBC, ABC is in the 50- to 60-year-old range. So I think one misunderstood thing is we can deliver young people, which really matters. The only place you can get that many young people is through digital. And I think the other thing that people overlook is just how good the margin structure is in our business. There's very few companies that have margins in the 40% range. And then I think the third one is it's -- we have a very captive situation. There's only really 2 cinema ad companies in the United States. We have north of 70% of it. And it's basically -- it would be very hard for a competitor to ever come into the space. So I think those are 3 things that people overlook to some degree. And I think the fact that our CPMs are as high as they are is something that people don't really appreciate. I mean no one would think that it cost that much to run a premium ad in a movie theater. And we've been proving over and over again that we can sell ads for $5 million, $6 million, $7 million to an individual client, which is certainly getting the attention of the Wall Street would be great.

So last question is, there was an article over the weekend in the New York Times business section about Tom Cruise being Hollywood's last real movie star. What happens to the star power of talent as the actual marketing has gotten smaller? Can there be movie stars of Tom Cruise profile in the future in the current environment?

Eric, you and I are almost the same age. So we grew up with Tom Cruise in his 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. So we're actually both excited to see Top Gun. What happened over the history of time was that movie stars were built through theatrical marketing. It wasn't so much that they were in a movie, it was what led up to them going into the movie. So you would have press junkets. These guys would fly all over the country and be on every television station. There will be a huge theatrical premier. There would be hundreds of millions of dollars spent marketing a star that you had never heard of or knew about. And in the '80s and '90s, there were probably 30 or 40 or 50 stars like that. And today, because everything is a franchise, whether it's Marvel, Star Wars, whatever, it's all really the movie that became the star. So I think the one thing that's really changed and you can think to yourself is, who's a movie start that any of you would go see today just because he's in the movie? And it's a really small number. Whereas 30 years ago, you would say, "Hey, I'll go to a Harrison Ford movie, or I'll go to a Tom Cruise movie, or I'll go to a Meryl Streep movie." That isn't happening with consumers as much as it was before. I wanted to share one other just quick fact because I know we're wrapping up. A couple of things I didn't mention was how diverse and how important the diversity is of our audience. We deliver, just to give you a sense, just on the -- against African Americans, we deliver more of an audience than BET does every month. BET is the largest black cable network. And we delivered the second most Hispanics in the United States after Univision more than Telemundo. So not only do we have this broad reach platform, we also deliver against the core African-American and Hispanic demo, which is important, and a growing part of most people's media mix.

We have one question in the audience. We have 1 minute left. So -- wait for the microphone, here it comes.

Can you elaborate more on the revolver that's maturing and some of the options that you're considering?

Yes, sure. So again, we have $217 million of revolver coming through middle of next year. We do have some time to address that. Obviously, we'd like to do that as soon as possible and not wait for the very last minute to do that. I think the most, kind of, worst case or simplest case would be just to simply do an amend and extend on those revolvers and extend out the maturities that will likely buy us really another additional year. If you kind of think about the next maturity that's coming up, which is in '24. We -- but I think Tom and I would like to look at it on a more holistic basis, if possible, if the markets are there. And really kind of, again, like I said in my earlier comments, it's not just about the 23s, but we also look at the 24s and 25s as well.

Okay. Thanks, everyone, for joining. Appreciate it.

Yes, we appreciate it. See you next year.