Navin Fluorine International Limited ($532504)

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Navin Fluorine International Limited Conference Call hosted by MUFG. [Operator Instructions] I now hand the conference over to Ms. Pooja Swami from MUFG. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am. Please proceed.

Thank you, Shailendra. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to Q4 and FY '26 Earnings Conference Call of Navin Fluorine International Limited. Today on the call, we have with us Mr. Vishad Mafatlal, Chairman; Mr. Nitin Kulkarni, Managing Director; and Mr. Anish Ganatra, Chief Financial Officer. Before we proceed with the call, I would like to mention that this call will contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are completely based on beliefs, opinions and expectations as of today. Actual results may differ materially. These statements are not the guarantee of our future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. A detailed safe harbor statement is given on Page 2 of the investor presentation of the company, which is uploaded on stock exchanges and on the company's website. With this, I hand over the call to Mr. Vishad Mafatlal for his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Good evening, everyone, and a warm welcome to Navin Fluorine International Limited's Quarter 4 and Full Year FY '26 Earnings Call. I am joined today by our MD, Mr. Nitin Kulkarni; our CFO, Mr. Anish Ganatra; along with Ms. Payal Dave, our Investor Relations Advisor from MUFG InTime. FY '26 has been a resilient year for Navin Fluorine, marked by strong delivery despite a challenging global environment and geopolitical uncertainties. By staying focused on our long-term priorities and leveraging capabilities, we remain committed to navigating these uncertainties with discipline and agility. I am pleased to report that the company has delivered 6 consecutive quarters of revenue and profitability growth, reflecting the strength of our business ethos, consistent execution and sustained demand across key segments. This momentum underscores management's focus on disciplined growth, market expansion and long-term value creation for our stakeholders. I am glad to inform you that the Board in today's meeting has declared a final dividend of INR 8.6 per equity share, 430% of the face value of INR 2 per share. The growth in this fiscal is supported by contribution across the business verticals, led by structural demand drivers and constructive pricing environment. This diversification across products, customers and geographies remains central to Navin Fluorine's long-term strategy. Our strong balance sheet continues to provide flexibility, while our robust order book across verticals underscore the confidence our customers place in us. With proven capabilities and operational efficiencies, we believe that innovation-led companies like us are best positioned to capture long-term growth. As we look ahead to the new financial year, we see commissioning and ramping up of additional HFC capacities of 32 MPP and the upcoming Chemours project. These projects will transition from investment phase to revenue generation in this year. We will continue to focus on a balance of product and service play with emphasis on niche chemistries to drive differentiated growth and value creation. We will continue to deepen and broaden our customer relationships across geographies. We will maintain a strong balance sheet with continued focus on capital allocation to deliver long-term shareholder value. I would like to thank our customers for trusting us, our employees whose dedication has made every achievement possible, our Board for their continuous guidance and our shareholders for believing in us. With this, I will now hand over the call to Nitin to take you through the operational and segment-wise performance in more detail. Thank you.

Thank you, Vishad bhai, and good evening, everyone. Let me walk you through the segmental performance and key operational developments. I'm pleased to share that we have reported a growth of more than 2x in EBITDA and PAT for the year. Across all 3 business verticals, our performance is a continuation of operating momentum and execution discipline. Starting with our HPP business. Quarter 4 FY '26 revenue grew 20% year-on-year at INR 393 crores, driven by improved realization and volume growth. Our AHF plant was successfully commissioned and commercial supplies have commenced during the last quarter. Our additional HFC capacity expansion equivalent to 15,000 metric tons per annum of R32 remains on track for commissioning in quarter 3 FY '27. The HPP business continues to benefit from a constructive global demand-supply environment, increasing adoption of low GWP refrigerants and export opportunities. Moving to Specialty Chemicals vertical. Q4 FY '26 revenue grew 39% year-on-year at INR 360 crores, reflecting strong execution in both existing and new molecules. We continue to see scale up in ongoing products supported by customer confidence and long-term contracts. Our Dahej MPP debottlenecking CapEx is progressing well and is targeted for commissioning in quarter 3 FY '27. The Chemours project is on track and expected to be completed by end June, early July. Importantly, Specialty Chemicals growth is backed by order visibility and a robust pipeline for FY '27. Turning to CDMO business. Quarter 4 FY '26 revenue grew by 61% year-on-year to INR 186 crores. This growth was driven by balanced mix of early, late-stage and commercial molecules across therapeutic areas such as oncology, respiratory, cardiovascular, neurology and animal health. To sum up, FY '26 has reinforced our belief in the strength of Navin Fluorine's integrated platforms. Our near-term priorities are efficient execution of announced CapEx and improving return ratios while scaling growth. Before concluding, I would like to take a minute to address the current geopolitical environment. We are closely monitoring and navigating the developments with agility, particularly given implications on energy prices, logistics and supply chain disruptions. With that, I would like to hand over the call to Anish for his remarks.

Thank you, Nitin. Good evening all, and I welcome you all to the earnings call. Moving on to the financial performance of the company in Q4 and FY '26. Let me begin with the financial highlights for the quarter ended March 31. Consolidated revenue stood at INR 938 crores, registering a 34% year-on-year growth. Operating EBITDA increased 80% year-on-year to INR 321 crores with margins expanding to 34.2%. Operating PBT grew 118% year-on-year to INR 251 crores. Profit after tax stood at INR 213 crores, reflecting a growth of 124%. For the full year FY '26, net operating revenues grew to INR 3,314 crores, reflecting a growth of 41%, supported by broad-based momentum across specialty chemicals, CDMO and HPG. Operating EBITDA more than doubled to INR 1,082 crores with margins at 32.6%, an expansion of 992 basis points, reflecting a favorable mix and operating leverage. Operating PBT grew 142% year-on-year to INR 815 crores as against INR 336 crores in the last -- in FY '24 -- '25. Profit after tax stood at INR 664 crores as against INR 289 crores. Our net working capital days have improved to 74 days versus 90 days, reflecting a stronger operational efficiency and better conversion cycle. Going forward, the net working capital is expected to be in the range of 75 to 80 days versus our previous indicative guidance of 90 days of sales. As of 31 March 2026, our net debt to equity stood at 0.01x negligible, while both ROE and ROCE improved at 20% and 21%, respectively. Thank you, and we can now open the floor for question and answers.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Sanjesh Jain from ICICI Securities.

I got a few questions. Let me start with the Middle East, right now, I've 2 questions there. First from the availability of raw material, including but not limited to, sulfur and methanol. At which station it's challenge of achieving raw material availability the forward contracts are not return or suppliers are not been formed? How is the situation there? Because it's against pretty volatile and uncertain. And related question is on the inflation of the raw material. We have been maintaining a 45 days inventory sale-throughs probably of better March and April, but we should be hitting a level where inventories now completely depleted. That means so necessitates the increased pricing to the contracts which we are working and spot prices probably adjust much faster, but how should we think about the passing on inflation on the contracts like SFO, agro chemical and CDMO? That's number one. Number two, on the refrigerant gas, there is a notification which government has put up and now I think the plant can come up until 2027, and there could be a situation where the competition was not areas looking to add -- significantly capacity. In '27, probably we are eyeing a capacity now in excess or 1,50,000 metric tons in India and that situation is very different versus earlier '26, now how does it changes the scenario for filing because in our presentation, we are talking of a revenue potential from R32 the tune of INR 600 crores to INR 825 crores. So at lower end, we are looking at a price which is INR 400 crores, probably half of the price what [indiscernible] trading at. So why do you think you're looking at INR 400 crores as a bottom [indiscernible] number probably on the margin. We appreciate that you have been calling out margin benefit coming from currency, but can you help us with the number, volumes, margin benefit which are coming purely from the currency? These are my initial question.

Sorry, Sanjesh, can you repeat your question on margin?

So we have been calling out benefits because of the currency depreciation, which is adding to the margin of 34%. Now what is the margin benefit purely coming from the ForEx?

Okay. So you've got a couple of questions. Thanks again. Starting from your comment on the Middle East situation and the availability of raw material. See, again, as we all know, the situation continues to remain volatile. As we mentioned before, our focus is on ensuring that we remain sort of vigilant to this focus the efforts of the management with a lot of discipline and at the same time, maintain agility in how we respond. So to be honest, this in some ways, feels like the COVID days, where you had a call every day morning with the leadership and you would sort of look at what's happening in the market and how you sort of mitigate any events. So far, we have not seen any disruption. We have seen inflation go through. But fortunately, we've also been able to pass on a lot of these back to the customers. There could be some lag effect. But other than that, we are pretty confident of passing on the price increases to the finished product, yes. So we don't see a material risk, say, for what may happen tomorrow, I don't know, yes. But as we talk now, we don't see a material risk coming from there. On your question on inflation and inventory depletion, we are maintaining healthy level of stocks. So far, we've not had a situation where we've not been able to get materials. Yes, the pricing has gone up, and that is kind of universally known. But we've not had a situation where we've had to shut anything down for want of raw materials or anything like that. And customer demand has remained robust during this period, yes.

There is no demand disruption because of inflation is what we are telling or just a restocking demand anticipating an inflation?

So in fact, I mean, post the situation, there may be further restocking demand that will come up because there will be some [ benching ] that will open up on situation improves. But currently, we are not seeing any destruction of demand in our numbers as we speak now as well, right? Now your point on refrigerant gas notification, '27 as the asset for bringing any new capacities. I mean, that notification still doesn't change the position on the quota, yes. And you should remember that quota is only going to be available as aligned with the Kigali protocol, which is '24, '25, '26 average production and 65% of your GWP or HDFCs of 2009 and '10, right? So that doesn't change. And while we can bring in capacity, I think the key question is, is the quota available or not to anybody bringing in those capacities. Margin, sorry, do you have...

No, just related question on ref gas. Is it clear from the government side that the R22 which company had only that company will be eligible and redistribute the R22 quota on a pro rata basis. Do we have that clarity?

So I think, Sanjesh, I mean, again, our understanding of the Kigali rules, our understanding of how this is meant to play out clearly indicates that you must have a right to win in this. So your right to win comes from the quota that you have. And that's exactly what we've always been saying and which is why we put our capacity to consume our quota fully. Yes, on the number specification, I mean, I know you said there is a currency tailwind, and there is a currency tailwind. If you analyze the currency tailwind with the inflation figures that you know, you will find that a lot of this is a wash between currency and inflation. And what we are now seeing in terms of the growth of the EBITDA, I think it's about 990 basis points from FY to FY, you will see 70% of that for Navin is coming from our capacities coming on the ground, our volumes going up and 30% is coming from affirmative actions on pricing that we've taken. This sort of -- I mean, I was reading something, but this basically implies that Navin's sort of operating leverage is meeting its capacity. That's essentially what's happening out here.

Very clear. Okay. Two related further questions. One on agrochemical application is pretty weak, are we seeing that play out for us in FY '27? And second, can you help us with CDMO late-stage contract, how many are we working? One we know it's commercial with the European clients. But we have supplied two clients, if I remember, one in the Europe and one in the U.S. on the commercial. Can you throw some light on late-stage contract we have in our pipeline? And how should we see them becoming commercial for us?

Yes. So on agrochemical, again, I mean, if you look at the global scenario, there is a slow sort of reset happening. You're seeing some indication of volume recovery. Pricing is always going to be lagging that. I think all of us understand. And Navin sort of, as we said before, our strategy was to work on newer molecules, et cetera, from a longer-term point of view. If you look at FY '26, we have done in all, I believe, close to about 13 new molecules during the year. And that, along with the demand sort of resurfacing gives us enough confidence to say that as we look into FY '27, we have visibility almost up to about 80% of our capacity utilization. So I think we are well covered for FY '27. And as we move into 2027, we'll get further clarity on how this is reshaping into '28 and beyond. In terms of CDMO late stage, early stage, I mean, we have a healthy balance of mix. I mean if I was to tell you in terms of number of molecules, I think we are working close to about 50, 55 molecules, half of them being in late-stage commercial and half of them being in early stages. So there's a very healthy balanced portfolio there. As we look into coming into our FY '27 number that we've always said of $100 million, this number that we've delivered this year of INR 541 crores is again a solid sort of journey to kind of get to where we want to get to by FY '27. And like I said before, we have been inching closer to it. With this quarter, we further inched closer to that number. So there is very good confidence that we will push for hitting the number, and we'll see where we get to at the end of the year. There is a lot of work happening on the commercial molecules as well. And we've indicated broadly the therapeutic areas that we talked about on the slide. If you see it oncology, if I remember, neurology, cardiovascular, animal health. So in all of these areas, we are playing in sort of a good balance, frankly. So very confident on the CDMO growth stage.

We have next question from Naushad Chaudhary from Aditya Birla Mutual Fund.

First on the Chemours project, assuming it goes well, what kind of CapEx it can trigger? And by when we can have some visibility that it should go in the favor of...

Okay. So Chemours, I mean, again, we've already said the project is on track for commissioning end of June, early July. And as I have stated previously, this is the initial capacities to accelerate adoption in the market. As we move to that over the next sort of 18 months, we get a better understanding of what that market size looks like. And accordingly, there will be a CapEx that will be rolled on the back of that understanding. Premature to talk what it will be today. But I think it's fair to assume that we are the only manufacturing site for Chemours given the nature of the product that it is essential to support the AI growth in the -- that we are seeing around us and the unique benefits of the product, it should be a reasonable one.

Okay. Second, on the pricing side.

Can you speak a bit louder, if you don't mind, Naushad?

Second, on the pricing side, especially on the Fermion and other portfolio as well. So apart from the rest, which all portfolios you're seeing price uptick? And what is your near-term outlook there? And what is the -- when is the price revision expected in the Fermion portfolio?

Yes. I don't know what's driving that question, Naushad. But I mean, Fermion opportunity is quite publicly known because it is published both by Orion as well as Bayer and I would encourage you to have a look at it actually. But the last I remember, it's about $5 billion peak sales in '28 or '29. And like we said, we are very firm believers of the projections that Fermion and has shared with us, and there is solid growth momentum to come on that as we look into the future. Pricing and all, I don't know where the question is coming from. If you have a particular point on pricing, I would request you to elaborate on it.

See, it's been 2 years to this contract and we have scaled it up. I was just thinking should we keep working on the initial pricing, which you would have contracted? Or would there be any point where the price revision would trigger because your scale and volume is going up in this particular project?

I will leave you to your judgment. These are commercial things we deal with it, but it's not something we can talk on any sort of forum outside the company.

Next question is from the line of Rohit Nagraj from 360 ONE Capital.

Congrats on strong set of numbers. First question, unfortunately, on the pricing part, given that there is a raw material price inflation and some of our contracts for HFO as well as for CDMO would be calendar year contracts. So will there be a price rejig or passed on immediately? Or will it be a transitory phase that for a couple of months, we'll be charging their previous price and then maybe a couple of months later, the newer price incorporating the higher raw material cost?

Thanks, Rohit. I mean, Rohit, see, the pricing and RM price inflation, et cetera, these different contracts cover it in different ways from a commercial standpoint. Obviously, we have both a product play and a service play. In service play, typically, you have pass-through mechanisms. So this will fall into that pass-through mechanism. Now how and what we are doing to accelerate that recovery is something that is being worked upon discussed, but it's not a surprise to both us and our customers about the price rises. So there is a good reception to that. The second question on -- what was the second thing you said transitory months or something around -- I think I answered that, right?

The second question is slightly on R32 in terms of broader structure in the domestic market. So what is our understanding in terms of the current consumption of R32? And given that the new capacities, even if we don't consider the ones who don't have quota and we are adding, there is another player who has got quota and they will be adding, how this incremental volumes, which is coming into play will be placed? And will it -- again, unfortunately, I'm asking the same question again in terms of pricing, will there be any impact given that these additional capacities will come on stream?

So R32, again, I think we've gone through this several times, but you have to look at the overall GWP cuts that are happening in the world and the blend play that R32 is uniquely positioned to be in. And that drives the pricing conversation. I mean, if I remember correctly, China prices currently are close to about $9, yes. So there is a significant sort of reason why they are stronger and getting stronger as we speak, okay? So one has to read into those dynamics. The point about -- I think it was Sanjesh who had asked and maybe I didn't address it at that point in time. But there was a question on the par range that we've given, $600 to $875. Frankly, as part of our investment approach that we take to the Board, we always present a downside case to. So we've only translated that in full transparency to how we've reported to the market. It's a downside case that we always do more as a math rather than our belief. And our belief is really driven by the demand supply dynamics, which, again, I've said this before also that the first R32 capacity came in when prices were sub $2. And if the economics stood then they used to stand now, yes.

Yes. Just one clarification on the numbers front. Our employee benefit expenses have been up only 4% on a Y-o-Y basis, and there has been a significant scale up in terms of operations. So will it be normalized during FY '27, maybe inflation adjusted plus the newer capacities coming on stream, which earlier probably were capitalized in the CapEx?

So I think when we started the year or some point in last year, and I think it is again a lot of the analysts asking us the question where our employee cost was, I think, 12%, 13% of sales. And we took some affirmative actions to bring it down. So what you see in the numbers is they look almost flattish, but those reflect typical increments, they both reflect typical sort of new joiners coming in and those also reflect the affirmative actions taken by management to optimize, right? So that's a combination of all. I think we are done with the optimization where we are. So going forward, you will see the increase largely. You will see the normal increase coming, yes, the normal increase. But I think if you had to put your model in, I would model it in the range of between 7.5%, 8.5%, 9%, not more than that. We're very careful on maintaining it in that threshold.

[Operator Instructions] We have next question from Vivek Rajamani from Morgan Stanley.

Congratulations on the strong finish. Just wanted to get a sense with respect to the customer conversations that you're having. Do you get a sense that you could move to increased restocking on a more sustainable basis with customers potentially building up more buffers versus the just-in-time sentiment that we've got used to for the last couple of years? And just with respect to agrochemicals, given the dislocations that we've seen in fertilizers and obviously, we don't know how the situation will resolve itself, do you see any risk of that flowing into potential offtakes for some of the agchem products?

So, Vivek, see, our portfolio on agchem is mainly export-driven, right? And as you know, in the export-driven, you start getting solid visibility before the end of the calendar year. And that visibility translates into orders, which then translates into deliveries. We are not seeing any disruption on that front. I mean, to be honest, everybody will be managing the supply chain disruption, how they do it, frankly, this is not something that they would share with us in our customer interactions. But we have definitely not seen any demand disruption as yet in terms of -- if that's where you were going with it.

Sure, sir. No, it's actually going the other way where you could see more restocking potentially with what's happened, not specifically on demand destruction.

No. So as I said, see, the ag market, and we've always maintained this that fundamentally that market has structurally good demand in the long term. In the near-term, it's going through a reset and it's going through a reset in a slow manner. So you are seeing some volume increases and prices are kind of still sort of subdued. But my understanding and my expectation is that, as we go through the year, you will see price rises lesser than volume increase. So it's going to look like flattish in terms of price rises, but that's where we are, to be honest. Beyond that, I don't think I have much to add.

The next question is from the line of Ankur Periwal from Axis Capital.

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. First question on the CDMO bit. Just sort of trying to understand the growth outlook better. So one, have we expanded our capabilities on the CDMO side versus, let's say, maybe 10 months back? Or is it largely the same? And the related part here, how has the revenue mix changed between the late-stage molecules and the early stage molecules for us?

So capability expanded certainly the case. If you mean capability through acquisition of new technology, et cetera, no, not yet. We have definitely expanded our capability because every therapeutic area that we stated out there is an area where we are actively working on molecules, some in commercial stage, some in early stages. I mean, to be honest, when you're looking for a revenue mix between early and late stage, you should look at more at the number of molecules because commercial molecules will tend to have a larger footprint in terms of the value. So like I said, therefore, we have got about 50%, 50% and close to about 55, 60 molecules that we are actively working as we speak.

Sure. Okay. Because this molecule number has been largely consistent the last 2, 3 years around that 50%, 55%-odd number. So this is what I was referring to from a revenue perspective.

No. So the molecules on commercial side, you're right because it takes long time to sort of go through the cycles, which you're aware of. The early stages is campaign-driven largely and they keep moving. But our sort of endeavor is to kind of hold it at a good balance, and that's why you probably see the numbers like that.

Sure, Anish. And just second, more of a bookkeeping clarification there.

[Operator Instructions]

Ankur finish off, let him finish off. Maybe next time -- the next one.

I think he has joined back the queue. We have next question from Jason Soans from IDBI Capital.

Sir, just wanted to know, I mean, you have grown really phenomenally well in the Specialty Chemicals segment as well as the HPV segment as well for this year, growth in excess of 35% and 45%. Now I just wanted to know from this higher base when you look into the next year, FY '27, regarding -- I know you gave a lot of color on the agchem side as well. Just wanted to know, can we kind of clock in high double-digit revenue growth for both these segments going ahead in FY '27?

So, Jason, I think I've given -- apart from just not giving you the specific number, but let me sort of reiterate the growth blocks going into FY '27. If you look at it, we've said the HF plant has already been commissioned. It was commissioned in February. So you should see the revenues for that kicking into FY '28. You should see the revenues for Nectar that we've talked about, the dedicated the fluorochemical plant. And we've always said that our endeavor would be to be around 50%, 60% capacity utilization this year. That would go to about 70%, 75% in the coming year. You would see the new sort of CapEx is coming on stream, the debottlenecking, and we've again given you the par for that and the time line for that. We've given you R32 and the time line for that. And again, you can model your numbers from what you have as an available data from the market. You start putting all this together, and obviously, we've talked about the Chemours project as well. cGMP4 was commissioned last quarter again, and you would see that or December, if I'm not mistaken. And you will see the revenue sort of kicking in this year to again from that point of view. Fermion growth is very solid. So again, you can factor in those numbers, too. So you will have enough to see the trajectory of this growth. And I would be surprised if it's not double-digit, but I'm happy to clarify if it is not separately.

Sure. And just one question. I wanted to understand with the Middle East crisis going on, any impact you saw in terms of ref gas volumes from that region -- for that region?

So Middle East, frankly, we -- our export footprint is very little, mainly the R22 gases and those haven't gone in March. And they are still in the schedule, but not yet gone in yet. To be honest, we are working on numbers for Q1, excluding the Middle East movement at all. So if any of that comes in, it will be an upside. But the demand across the globe is pretty robust and also no logistics issues on that front.

The next question is from the line of Sucrit Patil from Eyesight Fintrade Private Limited.

I have 2 questions. My first question to Mr. Partha is a forward-looking one. How are you positioning Navin Fluorine to capture the evolving demand in specialty fluorochemicals and the CDMO space while mitigating risk from global regulatory changes and raw material volatility? And what strategic levers will differentiate the company from its peers in the coming quarters? That's the first question. I have the second question after this.

Sorry, who did you direct your question to.

Mr. Roy?

We don't have any Roy, you'll have to wait forever. No, let me answer that anyway. Let me answer that. So it's Anish here. So on the agchem front, see, again, we have a service play, right? And in the service play, we work with global innovators. So frankly, their regulatory risks of the intermediates we supply to them are managed by them. We are working on some new innovation -- innovator molecules, which are part of the strategic pipeline of these global innovators. So I would suspect there is not any sort of issue over there. Sorry, did I lose you? I was just kidding.

Sir, he is right now off the queue?

Okay.

We have next question from Arun Prasath from Avendus Spark.

A couple of questions. First is, you talk about demand -- you are not seeing any kind of a disruption. But I'm sure you would agree that there are 2 parts to this. One is -- one set of customers would be restocking and second set of customers, maybe they may be a little bit going slow and maybe we want to wait and watch. So your read on the demand situation, is it more because that some of these customers are restocking and probably the issues with respect to demand on the higher prices, will it come with a lag? Is that the right way to look at our business at this point of time?

So, the way I would look at it, I mean, if I look at '28 and the order visibility, we've talked about coming to 80% utilization that -- sorry, Arun. Yes. So what I was saying was if you look at the visibility we've talked about on FY '28 in the agro specialty, I mean, frankly, the capacity utilization at 80% is probably as best as one would go in an MPP environment. And then doing 13 new molecules last year and sort of working that through in the coming year, we don't see what you are saying some destocking, some not destocking. All -- I mean, frankly, the way it manifests for us is in the order visibility and in the order books, and that continues to be solid.

Of course, I'm sure for your pharma category would be relatively insulated.

No, I'm talking of Agro. I'm talking of agro. I'm talking of agro. Pharma, again, I -- frankly, you guys will know far more than I do because Fermion numbers are out there. And -- so you will see the growth they are seeing annually, year-on-year as well as the peak projections as well as the further label extensions that we are working on. So...

Anish bhai, outside pharma and agro, which categories you would say that at a risk because higher prices eventually lead to the demand destruction at a later stage, not long-term, but at least 1 or 2 quarters, there will be a demand. So can you call out some categories that from probably [indiscernible]?

This is an economic question of theory, but there are several articles, one can read that, but at $150 sustained oil prices, I think there is a concern that the global demand may slow. But today, we are not seeing that. We can't factor that. What we are doing today is making sure that we are resilient. We are working hard at what we can do. We maintain our discipline. And frankly, in this environment, we maintain significant agility as well to respond to situations as they arise, right? That's what we can do. And that actually will prepare us in the best possible way to whatever is thrown at us. That's our focus.

No, no. I understand, Anish bhai. What I'm asking is, what categories we should be looking out for outside the category -- outside the pharma and ag growth? Because as an outsider, we do not have much insight what's happening on.

Arun, it's very simple at $150, if there is demand disruption, you will see interest rates, inflation, everything go haywire. That will be a global scenario of slowdown, and I'm sure you're reading the world reports from the World Economic Forum, et cetera, et cetera. But that's not something I am planning on. That's not something in my gift to control. So as management, we are doing what is within our gift of influence, what is within our gift of control.

Understood. And on the ForEx benefits you spoke earlier, there are 2 costs associated for you. One is the dollar-denominated cost and another is the rupee-based cost. So is it fair to assume when the contract goes for the renewal, customers will not be -- would be negotiating only to the extent your rupee cost will not be repriced to the same extent?

Commercial negotiations are never linear. So you can't have one attribute and you relate that to another attribute. I mean, these are holistic contracts where you would look at everything, how a contract is structured, how you would sort of attempt the risks of inflation. I mean if you want to do a rupee-based contract, well, then you will have to take inflation in your side, right? So there are several cuts and nuances to it, and it's not a subject I think we can cover.

Understood. Sir, one final bookkeeping question. HPP segment, sequentially, there is a revenue decline. One would expect that with the AHF plant scaling up and the better pricing.

Arun, can you repeat? Where do you see -- I just heard the word decline?

HPP segment Q-o-Q decline, sir. Sequentially, not Y-o-Y.

Yes, yes. That is okay, okay. That you're talking of Q3 to Q4, right? So these are things in terms of -- every of these plants have planned shutdowns, right? And we had taken a planned shutdown in our Q4, and we also took an opportunistic exercise to recharge the catalyst in one of our plants. This is ahead of the heat season to maximize the value in quarter 1 of this year. So that's just normal routine activity. Yes. Plus Middle East, obviously, as you know, and I've said this before, that we had no shipments in the Middle East, which was close to about INR 15 crores to INR 16-odd crores.

Any quantification possible [indiscernible].

[Operator Instructions] We have next question from Keyur Pandya from ICICI Prudential Life Insurance Limited.

Sir, 2 questions on the HPP side. So first, the Honeywell contract, I mean, we have always talked about, annual some quantum. So have we any scope for growth or expansion from current levels both in Honeywell and in our current R32 plant? So just wanted to understand before the new R32 plant, what growth levers do we have in the HPP? That is first question.

Okay. So before -- on the growth levers in HPP, I'm sure you should certainly count the growth coming in from HF plant, which is already commissioned. In terms of your question on Honeywell contract, I mean, that HFO has applications primarily in the construction area, but also ancillary applications in the refrigerant cooling space, too. And whatever we are doing on demand today, it is at an 80% capacity, as I've told you before. So there is room to expand within that same capacity by another 20%. I mean that's nothing new that I'm saying today. But it's been something we've always been telling you guys. What was the other question? You had something on 32.

So basically, the question was growth levers ahead of new plants. You mentioned Honeywell additional 20% and ASF, right?

No, no, no. No, I didn't say ahead of 32 plan. I said there is opportunity to grow that at some point whenever that demand comes through. Today, we are at 80% size. Before that, you should certainly count in the HF capacity and the growth coming -- and 32 will come in on time, as we've said that before.

Okay. And second question on the segment -- I mean, specialty chemicals. There for this project Nectar, I think there are some change in the product from the client. So now under the new scope, what is the visibility we have for merchant sales, which I mean outside the contracted volumes?

So the contracted volumes are fully covered. The additional molecule actually gives better risk management to that plant. We have also made shipments outside of the contracted revenues for qualification. Those qualifications are under progress. Besides, there are also possible downstream applications of that product that we are working on. So we're not duly concerned about utilization. Yes, it has been -- we would have liked to have a full utilization by end of FY '28, which would be the 2 years. But I think we are realistically talking about 75% to 80% is where we will get to by end of FY '28.

Okay. And just lastly [indiscernible].

We have next question from Mr. Abhijit Akella from Kotak Securities.

Sir, first question on the margins. So the gross margins this quarter are stable on a sequential basis, 58% odd, even though the CDMO business has ramped up substantially on a sequential basis. So just sort of trying to understand what the dynamics are there would expect normally the margins have expanded a little bit more.

No. So margin expansion in a diversified business is linked, not just between business mixes, but also the portfolios that you play within each vertical. So specialty has different molecules. This has different molecules. So there's both an intra business play and an interbusiness play, yes. So you should factor in both. It's sort of a combination of both that results in that number. So it wouldn't be fair to just take one equation and jump to that conclusion. It would depend on what product we've done this quarter versus what we did last quarter. And like I said before, there were 13 molecules we did in FY '26 in the specialty business, 3 of them were done in quarter 4.

Okay. And the other one was just with regard to the margin guidance for FY '27 in the context of this inflationary environment. So is 30% still a good benchmark to work with? That was one. And just the other quick thing from my side. The HPP vertical seems to have shifted markedly towards India in the past 2 quarters in terms of sales. So what might be driving that?

So to answer your first question on the margin guidance, I mean, we've always maintained that we will endeavor to do 30%. Given what we know today of the business circumstances, plus/minus 1% to 2%, which we've always said, yes. So that we will hold for the whole year. This is not a quarter number, and we've always maintained that you should look at the margins from a full year perspective. Yes. Your question on HPP sales shifted to India. Actually, HPP has had a bigger shift, and that one needs to understand that it was a business that we were doing in the range of about 250, 300 now that per quarter. Now that has moved to clearly in the 400 mark. And in the coming year, with the new R32 capacities, HF capacities, that will further go up in terms of contribution. As you increase your profile in this fashion, your customer base is going to change. So you should look at the increase in India. Obviously, we've done R32 contracts in India. Obviously, we've done global reach. If you look at the export data, you will see that we've reached new geographies, new customers. A lot of it will change as you grow the business in the pace at which we are growing, yes.

And the next question is from Archit Joshi from Nuvama Institutional Equities.

Sir, 2 questions from me. First one, I wanted to get a bit more understanding on the Nectar project. I believe that 50% was towards one of our marquee customers and the balance 50% was something that we are still trying to figure out in terms of how to dispatch those volumes. I believe that the first 50% should definitely be in line with our expectations. But given whatever we are seeing in the global agri industry, could you have any understanding on how we should be placing the balance 50% of that plant? That would be number one. And second one would be we have recorded about INR 211 crores of contract liabilities on the balance sheet including current and noncurrent ones, which have increased from about INR 239 crores, if I calculate correctly. What could be the attribution to that? These would be my 2 questions.

Okay. Sure. So on Nectar, you know that apart from the marquee customers, there are 2 to 3 other customers, right? So we are going through qualification campaigns. We are not figuring out. We are actually working on a plan, and that plan is to get the qualification done and then the sales. We think it is slower than what we would have liked it to be. So therefore, we are talking of the 75% this year and then the balance next year. We've also talked about the fact that -- and I just said that before to the previous respond that we would be looking at sort of downstream applications of the product. Given whatever -- if your question is more around the pricing of that product, et cetera, to the Chinese markets, et cetera, we are confident that even at that price, we will make reasonable margins that would not be deteriorated to our overall margin profile. Yes. Contract liabilities. Now as you know, contract liabilities actually reflects the monies that we've received from our customers towards the capital contribution, both on Chemours project and the marquee project for the additional molecules. So therefore, you see the increase that you see primarily.

The next question is from the line of Dhara Ganatra from Valuequest.

Sir, I would like to understand more on the Fermion contract since now the cGMP4 is commissioned from this quarter onwards from Q4 onwards, will the manufacturing that was already done in your Dewas facility now move to, I mean, the other block of cGMP4? Or do you have visibility for more volumes to offtake in the next year, so both will be utilized?

So the Fermion block was a dedicated block. So, obviously, what we are currently doing elsewhere will go into dedicated block because that's why we've built in the dedicated block. So that answers your first question. The second question, do we have visibility to more volumes? Yes, of course, we do have visibility to more volumes. And that will trigger off a decision in terms of where do we place them, et cetera, as and when those volumes come into play.

Okay. So there could be a possibility of a cGMP5 as well if you have more visibility for the concept?

Yes, there will be a Phase 2. And obviously, we are working with other molecules, too. So we've got space for 5, 6 and 7, I believe. So they are scalable. If we need to do it and there is a business case, we will do it.

And can you mention the quantum of CDMO contribution that is coming from Fermion full year of FY '26?

Can I mention the quantum [indiscernible]?

Quantum of Fermion Contribution.

No, no. So, Dhara, we don't commercially talk about these values. We kind of quiet on those. But like I said, I mean you all have the benchmarks. You know it is whatever 2%, 3% of the sale value, et cetera, in terms of the intermediate, that all you know, right? And eventually, it would be the part that also you know [indiscernible].

Ladies and gentlemen, due to time constraints, this will be last question. We now hand over the line to Mr. Anish Ganatra for closing comments. Over to you, sir.

All right. Thanks a lot, everybody, for taking the time to interact with us today. Very useful session from our perspective, certainly, and hope you have the same outcome as well. Thank you, again, and have a good evening all.

Thank you. On behalf of Navin Fluorine International Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.