NCR Voyix Corporation (VYX) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us. This is day 4, last day of Citi's 11th Annual Fintech Conference, closing out the conference strong. My name is Andrew Schmidt on Citi's fintech research team with a focus on fintech software. Before we kick this session off, just a brief -- we just will note if you'd like to ask a question, you can do so using the web portal or you can email me directly. We'll try to keep it as interactive as possible given the virtual context. But thanks, everyone, for joining. And really excited to host NCR today. With us, we have Mike Hayford, the CEO of NCR. Thanks a lot, Mike. Really appreciate you taking the time to join us today.

Sure, Andrew. Thanks for having us.

And I think it's always -- particularly helpful these days, just given the inflow of companies that we've seen in the sector, kind of just level set where NCR plays, its end markets and things like that for the investors listening in. Just a brief kind of overview, a refresher, would be helpful, and then we'll go from there.

Yes, let me kind of walk through our business lines, and I'll talk a little bit about the strategy. And maybe just for people who aren't currently on the story, a little bit of a strategic shift over the last few years of what we're trying to do. I'll start with Banking and financial space for us. We are one, if not the largest, digital banking provider for banks, community banks, credit unions, regional banks. It's predominantly a U.S.-based product, a digital banking product. Digital banking, as you know, is really what is driving our retail banking. So it -- I always tell the story that retail banking used to be branch based, branch basics, coming out of the ATM and extending to digital starting in the mid-'90s. Really, retail banking now for banks of every size is digital such that digital now works its way back into the ATM footprint and then back into the branches. So our strategy is to provide that full suite of services so that for your retail clients, you could have an integrated offering starting with the digital experience on your mobile device, maybe going to an ATM or an ITM and then following into branch. We've built a channel services platform that sits underneath all those things. So with large clients like U.S. Bank that actually rebuilt their branch teller platform or their [indiscernible], they rebuilt that with our technology, integrated it into their mobile app, integrated it into their ATM infrastructure. So that's the digital side of banking. It's a pretty sizable business for us, $500-plus million of revenue. And then self-service banking. Self-service banking is fairly straightforward. It's traditionally what we did with our ATM footprint. Our strategy right now is to really shift that to be more of a subscription-based business. We call it ATM as a Service. A big chunk of that is already the software stack we sell, and the services we sell on top of it are already monthly subscription based. We're starting to see deals that include a bundling of the hardware on top of that. And one of the things that we've done over the last year is we've gone out and acquired a company called Cardtronics. And the way to think about that is a year ago at NCR, we built more ATMs, we serviced more ATMs than anybody else in the globe. We think we have the best software than everybody else. But we didn't run -- NCR did not run a single ATM a year ago. Today with Cardtronics, we run 270,000 ATMs around the globe. So if you look at the full stack and the ability to operate some of this ATM footprint, we can do everything soup to nuts. We can put the hardware to support the service, drive terminals, switch the transactions on the back end. We've seen actually outside of the States a fair amount of interest in that. We're starting to see with community banks they actually have a very large -- [indiscernible] bank the other day who is interested in parts of that for their footprint where they feel we could probably do that more effectively. So that's a simple -- it's -- people who buy ITMs [ say they bought ] ATMs. So in the future, we'd like to have them buy a subscription to operate and shift that to a [ full ] recurring. So that's the bank. And underneath banking, we do a lot of payments. Most of the Cardtronics business is interchange, it's surcharge fees, it's transaction fees related to payment. And in that world, part of what we acquired with Cardtronics is the Allpoint network. We view the Allpoint network as a channel to distribute products. Traditionally, it has been cash out. Now we're doing cash deposits, check deposits. We just opened up the capability to do crypto, to buy crypto. We're going to be rolling out capabilities to pay bills, to transfer money all from those devices, which are actually distributed to retailers. So it's grocery stores, it's drug stores, it's big-box stores, it's convenience, gas stations that have the Allpoint network. We have 55,000 devices out there today. On the issuing side, on the use side, all the neobanks need a physical footprint. So the Chimes of the world, the Varos of the world, they need a physical footprint, even some traditional banks like the USAA, which is -- has a -- covers the whole country but doesn't have a physical footprint, uses things like Allpoint. So -- and then there's estimated 20% to 25% of the population that, quite frankly, is unbanked or underbanked. They don't go into traditional branch. They need access to some of these capabilities in a more cost-effective way, in a way maybe closer to them than where they traditionally obtain those services. So we're very excited about what we can do with the Allpoint network and distribute more products. The other half of our payments is merchant. We got into that business about 3 years ago. We're a very large gateway provider for connected payments. We got into merchant firing. It's a simple strategy. When we have a POS system in our retail business or we have a POS system in our restaurant business, we don't have to complete the transaction all the way back to the back end and collect those fees. So we're attaching payments to Aloha, to Silver, to the back end of StorePoint, back end of Emerald, our retail product. So that's -- and that continues. That's -- I tell people that's a marathon. We're going to keep going. Our goal is to get all of our payments connected eventually. Then the other 2 parts of our business on the retail, our traditional business. NCR -- when you think of an NCR, a 137-year-old company, we've always been in the retail space. Today, we think there's a large imperative for retailers to upgrade from legacy. We have a very large legacy of printer sales. We've come out with a new platform-based cloud product that we are starting to move customers over to. We've created a kind of an incremental approach to migrating them where they can get components to get onto our platform. But ultimately, retailers -- if you think about what's happened to retailers -- if you think about what's happened to retailers even in the last, I'll say, 18 months with COVID, it's aggressively shifted. So where you used to go on a retailer pick-up/serve-yourself, now there's all sorts of options, whether it's -- you -- whether it's delivery -- whether it's delivery to a third-party aggregator, whether it's you pick up at the store, store-drop-pick-up, or whether you go pick yourself, whether you go through a assisted lane for check -- or a self-service lane checkout, all those things require the owner of the retail, I think, grocery store, how do you integrate those together and how do you provide a more integrated service offering for your clients. So we're seeing entities, grocery stores, big-box stores, we're seeing convenience/fuel store, all need to get on a path where they can actually integrate that better together. And we're actually seeing quite of an activity in the retail space right now. And then the other big move in retail, as you probably expected, is the self-checkout driven initially by the pandemic itself and people not wanting somebody else to touch their good or service. It's probably 90% today driven by labor either the cost of labor or, in many cases, the inability to get labor. Think of a convenience store, a convenience/fuel store, a CFR, where in the past they might have had 4 lanes, 4 POS checkup, they can't staff them anymore. So they put in a -- they'll put in a stack-to-floor self-checkout, and they'll have one person manage floor self-checkout. And so we're seeing that start to take off. It's simply labor. And then hospitality, we compete in the SMB space, restaurant-to-restaurant with Aloha. And then we also compete in the enterprise, where large-chain restaurants or large-scale restaurants, we have a massive scale to support them not only across the country but, in some cases, around the world. So those are the business segments. Everything we do is shifting to provide -- we use the word run. So rather than sell a component, we want to sell and do the infrastructure to run your whole restaurant, run your whole store. Or in banking, we call it self-directed banking. You saw retail banking that you do directed self-driven. So there's a thumbnail sketch of the new NCR, if you will.

Super helpful. It's a very -- it's a great overview. Interesting that you mentioned the labor component. I hadn't thought of that in terms of self-checkout given what we're seeing in the labor market. That's a good data point. The -- if we put this all together, I know NCR has a goal of increasing the mix of recurring revenues and a shift to software and services. A part of it is what you discussed in terms of growing digital banking, shifting to ATM as a Service. But maybe you could talk to at a high level where you're at now. And I know this is probably a focus at the Analyst Day, I presume, but where you're at now and where you expect to go over the next couple of years.

Yes, Andrew, thanks for that plug. Our Analyst Day is coming up on December 9. We're going to do a live virtual. So hopefully, everybody who's out there can join us. But what you're referencing is 3 years ago when we did our Investor Day, we introduced the concept of [indiscernible] simple goals. We used 80%-60%-20% and some simple metrics that we put as goals for us. And it really -- the numbers really underlie the shift in strategy that you just referenced, Andrew. So the 80% is shifting to a software and service-driven company. So almost -- think about -- we use internally NCR-as-a-Service. So it's a little bit more than just the SaaS kind of software, but it starts with the software. But it also might involve a service rep, it might involve components of hardware. Like in restaurant, we do a lot of essentials. We put all the hardware as well as the software in service support. And so that 80% is getting a shift to be software/service driven, which means the other side, the 20%, is going to be -- 20% is going to be hardware-driven business. We're approaching hitting that goal. I think last quarter, we were about 76% software/service driven. So we're getting very close to 80%. I think the perception in the marketplace is we're still a hardware company. We're not really a hardware company anymore. It's a piece of what we do. I think about it as a branding exercise. Everybody that goes to a grocery store or goes to a Whole Foods or goes to a Walmart, you go to a McDonald's, you to go to a Wendy's, you see our brand, you see our logo, and you get to know who we are. But that's what we really think about the hardware side. So we're approaching that 80% on the software/service driven. The 60% is really the recurring revenue component. And for me, having a history in fintech and having a history in high recurring revenue, high subscription-based companies, it really gets down to have the predictability of the revenue stream, the stickiness of customers who are signing 5- to 7-year contracts instead of doing transactions every quarter. And so that was a major shift for us. We're north of that 60% right now. A lot of that was driven by Cardtronics being a recurring revenue footprint that we're bringing on board. That is an indicator over the years, again predictability of our business and stickiness of those customer relationships. While we set the goal at 60% a number of years ago, I'd clearly like to have that even go higher. And then the 20%. The 20% was just effective management driving EBITDA margins up. I think we had -- last quarter, we were mid-18s as a company, up from a year ago less than 15%. So we've driven the earnings. Now part of the earnings acceleration comes because you shift the mix of software and services. So we have a higher-margin business. That means -- so the 2 of those, if you think about software and service led and recurring, it really is getting to more of a subscription-based company that is really part of the strategy. And we've -- like I said, we started that 3 years ago. A simple way to think about this is if you're out selling a full stack, you want to run the restaurant for somebody, so you want to do more than just provide a piece of software or a piece of hardware. But you want to run what they're doing, service support. We do a lot of Level 1, Level 2 support for large restaurant chains. We do that for the banks on the self-directed side. We do it for retailers. And you want to go back and sell the second part and the third part. So in retail, I talked about the NCP -- the NCR commerce platform. Once you get them started on a path maybe with Emerald, maybe a software-defined store, and start to add loyalty, add marketing, you add payments, you add other components, there's 13 components in that platform that we can cross-sell and add. The focus internally has been you have to have customers who are satisfied with that first product. You have to have customers who have a good experience with NCR. So over the last 3 years, we've moved our NPS score up from -- I think we were 14 3 years ago, which was not very good. This year, we're going to end the year at 48. So we've had a very strong focus on changing the perception of the customers. And it's simply because if they're going to buy more products from us, they have to be satisfied and happy with the products that they have.

Okay. That's helpful. I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about the Cardtronics integration. Maybe give us an update about how the integration is progressing. And then for people who are less familiar with the story, maybe the strategic rationale behind that deal.

Yes. Let me -- I'll start with the strategic rationale and what we got with the Cardtronics acquisition. So again, so there's 2 pieces. The one piece I'll call ATM as a Service, so the ability to go out and go into a financial institution and say, look, you're running a fleet of 500 ATMs. We run 270,000 ATMs around the globe. We service, we support them. We manage their CIT providers. We drive them. We switch their transactions on the back end. We can run your 500 stack more cost effectively than you can. A year ago, we were talking about we couldn't do the driving, we couldn't do the switching. We didn't have the capabilities to do what I'd call as a full stack. So think about maybe for a financial institution, to operate a fleet of ATMs, on a scale of 1 to 100 where 100% of spend that they have, we had access to maybe 30%, 35%, 40% of that. So we were about 1/3 of the spend, providing the hardware, we're providing software and providing great fix. If we do the full stack, so now you double, maybe even triple, the available marketplace. It just opens up a bigger market for us, and it shifts it to subscription. So that's half of the rationale for doing the Cardtronics deal, is to get in the ability to run ATMs, drive the terminals, switch around the transactions, have our own network. We have our Allpoint network. The other half of that was if you think about the ability to deliver financial services, financial service transactions, payment transactions to a segment of the market that isn't going to walk into a bank branch, they're going to do their banking at a CVS store or Walgreens or a big-box store or a convenience store because they're going to do cash -- they'll do a deposit, maybe they're going to do a -- pay a bill, maybe they want to get some, I want to say, ends up with digital currency, end up with Uber points or they end up with tracking points or something, I want to turn that into cash. How do I do that? I'm not going to go to a bank to do that. You're going to end up going to our Allpoint network at your local drug store and do a transaction. So that ability to serve a segment of the market and drive financial transactions was the other half. So those are the 2 drivers. You'll probably see some things coming out on Investor Day about what is -- what does that mean around 55,000 endpoints and Allpoint distribution centers around the globe and what the products are that we're driving. So those are the strategic rationales. On the integration, the corporate side, we actually -- we closed at the end of June. We got regulatory approval -- final approval in August. And then we move quickly on the corporate functions, fully integrated. The works are in place. The business side, we aligned -- we realigned our company internally to pull the teams together. And now it's the go-to market. We actually have a large bank in yesterday and another bank in today. The go-to-market is probably working better than I would have expected. The team is aligning. Because in some cases, like especially in the banks, we've got relationship teams from both sides, and the communication has been great. They've been sitting down and saying, what do we want to sell, how do we want to represent a single NCR to that entity. So I can't be more pleased with the integration. Cost is always the easiest thing. You -- we might soon to take the cost out, and we'll make that happen over the next 12 months.

That makes a lot of sense. And you mentioned something in your remarks in international. And this is my perception. Cardtronics seemed very focused on the U.S. And obviously, they had international. But it always seemed a little bit secondary. Are you going to put more emphasis on international growth in terms of whether it's outsourcing or ATM deployments and things like that? Is that part of the growth story here with Cardtronics?

Yes. Well, they're actually pretty large in the U.K. When we did the Cardtronics in 2021, we've [indiscernible]. It's bounced back really strong in the U.S. transaction volumes. U.K. has been slower. Canada has been slower. South Africa has been slower. They're in Europe and Germany and Spain. But we expect those to pick up. And then you look at where we have footprint and feet on the street and capabilities, it's in EU -- in the EU right now. So they're in -- they were very large in the U.K. with Cardtronics, and NCR coupled. Again, they're in Germany, they're in Spain with their offering. But our ability then to open up other markets in the EU is much greater with NCR mass than what they did by themselves. South Africa is a market that we were in. They were, quite frankly, bigger in South Africa with their footprint than we were so that we'll expand that. We have a large group of employees in India, for example, at NCR, a lot of offshore resources. But we obviously do a lot of business in India. They have been in India. India as a market is embracing the ATM as a Service. About half of that business that -- gets deployed in that factor. So more than likely, we'll do something over in India. But yes, we will expand that footprint. We're also looking at digital banking, which is predominantly U.S. based. We have a product that we believe will work in the international market. We're starting to make some movement there as well.

That's great to hear. And there's a lot of opportunity there. You guys get asked about this all the time, but we might as well cover it because I get this question. It's the question on cash usage. Maybe you talk about kind of withdrawal trends and cash usage behavior that you've seen coming out of the pandemic and how to think about that growth going forward from an ATM perspective.

Yes. It actually has held up surprisingly well. I think there was an initial dip, if you remember, I'm going to say, second quarter of 2020 when -- during the, I'll call it, the height of the fear and the unknowns. People were afraid that COVID had been passed via physical, right? So back then, we wore facemasks, but we wiped everything down. We wiped our groceries down. We wiped our -- and we were afraid of cash. I think that, that's past. People are no longer afraid of cash. Cash is sort of a segment of the population that does not have access to cards. And so it's -- at retailers, it's held up depending on the retailer. I talked to some retailers. They go in at 30%, 35%. A couple of our customers are at 40%, 50% based on the segment of the market that they serve. In dealing with cash management, cash, whether it's ability for the customers to get the cash or the ability for the merchants to manage their cash at the back end, still a big piece of the pie up there. The other thing to keep in mind, beyond cash, I got -- when I talk about Cardtronics and the Allpoint network, what else can you do with those devices? And so our expectation is add product. Rather than just a cash dispenser, what else can you do? And there's a whole set of exciting things that we'll be rolling out that's on top of that. Banks, thinking about what to do with their footprint, really their focus on ATM was not some [ jazzy ] cash dispenser, it's how do I offload transactions from a teller line, how do I offload transactions from the branch. We're in certain branches now, but I still want to have a presence somewhere, that's not my customer. So we actually feel pretty good about where the ATM market is. So in total, let's say the ATM market in terms of volume is going to stay maybe relatively flat, and there might be some spikes as people start to renew over the near term. But sales are going to be flat and maybe slightly declining over the long haul. But for us, as a business imperative, if we go from 33% shared haul to operate ATM networks to 100%, in some cases, we can turn them into a growth business and turn it into a subscription business. So we -- while that's -- it's a piece of our business, a big piece of our business, we think it's going to be more stable over the years and continue to be a solid performer for us. As people continue to -- it won't grow at the same level that digital banking is growing just due to [indiscernible] being pushed at all the banks. That's where their spending dollars are going today.

Sure. I think that's right. I think people tend to overestimate the pace at which cash declines. And the fact of the matter is that usage is much stickier than what people anticipate from a long term [ perspective ].

Yes, what I would say, Andrew, is you're in New York, but there's -- you're in Downtown Manhattan, and I always say, for those of you that live in Manhattan, go out to rural parts of the country and see if people -- I think Manhattan is probably much more card based, much more electronic based.

That's right.

That's not the way the rest of the country operates.

Yes, that's right. Yes. And a lot of the investors live in these -- the areas where it's heavily electronified versus a part of the country where cash is just more prevalent. So it's important to understand that dichotomy. It's a really good point. Yes. And you also referenced the wiping down of the groceries. I completely blocked that period out of my mind. So that's -- it's interesting to remember that period in time. I want to switch gears to digital banking because we talked about a couple of times it's a really bright spot in terms of growth for the company. Maybe you talk a little bit about what's -- you've been having pretty good success over the last couple of years now. Growth rate has significantly reaccelerated. You have a lot of users on the platform, pretty significant now that you guys have -- you updated your disclosures to talk about this more frequently. But maybe talk about what's reenergized that business, what you've done from a product, a go-to-market perspective, and then what the pipeline looks like in terms of new client engagements there.

Yes. I mean I'll start with a -- keep in mind, so the head is -- the center of our digital banking business is the old Digital Insight company that we've had since 2014. I believe that's when we acquired that. We've added on to that. We've built out some products. We've built out a small business banking product. We built out some payment capabilities. We've built out -- expanded the APIs. We're doing some things to expand the analytics on it. We add some businesses like Terafina, which do account opening, the ability to open an account on your mobile device or on a digital device. We added a product called D3, which serves the $25 billion-and-above marketplace on a platform basis. So it -- we've got some great set of assets. I -- the simple -- what changed over the past 3 years is -- if you look at fintech companies, you'll get some of the direct competitors that we compete within digital banking like a Q2 or an Alkami we do not see when we look at companies like that. If you look at the traditional core players like FIS, Fiserv, Jack Henry, it's a market -- it's always been a market, when you outsource somebody's technology, whether it's core, whether payments, whether it's digital banking, that you sign monthly contracts, typically 5, sometimes 7, your arrangement. It's a very sticky business, but it's a business you have to take care of those clients, and you have to add more products and you have to get more customers. You hold on to your clients, you add more products to get more customers. It's a growth business. It can't go down. I don't know that when we originally did that deal a number of years ago we had the right expertise and mindset in here. So 3 years ago, we brought in a new team that came from some of those other names I just referenced, and we focused on repairing our -- just repairing our customer relationships, repairing our product, stabilized that in 2019, heading into 2020, and started to get a little bit of growth. But we keep all the customers, get your renewals, start to add in customers, add new products. Now we're starting to see the growth that you should see in that business. We're pushing 9% -- 8%, 9% last quarter. And heading into next year, we think we'll be low double digits in terms of growth for that business. So I think we just got it back to where it should be. I wouldn't say we're at the finish line. I'd say we're at the starting line. But we're now positioned with a really -- a customer base with the ability to create new products, with the ability to acquire components and integrate them. As I referenced, we think the D3 product, in particular Terafina product, we've got some international clients. We can extend that overseas, probably starting with the U.K., maybe Australia, countries like that where we have a good relationship with the banks already. But we're just excited. We -- it's taken a couple of years to get it there, but we're back to where it needs to be and then poised for even better growth going forward.

That's super helpful. And as we think about buying behavior, is there a value proposition in buying both digital banking and ATM services together? Is that the way -- these banks or especially the target market of the digital banking business, is that the way they're thinking about? Or are the buying decisions made generally separately? Just curious in terms of the crossover in between the ATM as a Service business or the ATM business and the digital banking business.

Yes. I would say historically, they're probably separate people with an FI and maybe slightly different buying decisions. I would say more and more, they are being at least somewhat integrated. And again, I'll go back to banking. Retail banking used to be a branch centric and then a branch extended to an ATM to extend the hours. And then it was a branch extended to an ATM and then extended to digital banking. Today, it starts with digital banking. And in most entities, I'd say 5, 6 years ago, you started to see all the large banks had a head of digital. And you see the ATM footprint grow ahead of digital instead ahead of retail because what you want to do is send your digital transaction if you have to go some place physical, send them to an ATM, not to a branch. So we started to see the big bank, I'd say most regional banks and even the smaller banks, now have a head of digital. Head of digital, in most cases, owns the ATM channel. Now we're starting to see head of digital own the branch network as an extension of digital as opposed to the other way around. So I think we're seeing more and more integrated by what do we do, how do we leverage an ATM channel connected to our digital channel as opposed to the other way around. So I think we're starting to see that combination really the last, I'd say -- again, I think pandemic helped accelerate that. People are trying to use more remote devices, not going to the branch. But we've probably seen it the last couple of years.

That's helpful. And we only have a couple of minutes left, and we -- I apologize, we've only scratched the surface on the business. But this has been a good conversation. Just as a couple of final questions, maybe a little bit of a plug for the Investor Day on December 9. What should we expect to hear about in terms of topics, things you want to highlight? Is it just sort of peeling back the layers on the different parts of the business, giving an update? Or is there more to it? Just curious to get your perspective on the upcoming Investor Day.

Yes. I think you'll see really 3 things. I think you had -- and you had questions around the Cardtronics integration, how's that doing. Now we did start getting involved in that deal right after our Investor Day last year, so people were like, why didn't you tell us about it. And this way -- the timing was -- we were not engaged in that deal December 3 of last year. So we got engaged in it end of December. So we want to update everybody exactly what we just talked about today. Here we got Cardtronics, the ATM as a Service. We got this network that we distribute financial products through 55,000 endpoints. So what does that look like? So Cardtronics update. We'll do an update on our strategy and our direction. We'll do an update on our business model, around our 5-year outlook and how does that drive. We think we have a company that, quite frankly, maybe isn't valued -- we have traded at a multiple quite a bit lower than the other names and that you would look at that are software focused. We're 80% software focused. I think the market still perceives us as a hardware place. So we'll talk about that a little bit in the context of if you look at investment choices, we're a pretty keep investment choice with a fairly stable business going forward and then some upside as maybe the market starts to rerate us more as a software play. And then lastly, we do have to go out and compete. We have to compete with different segments. And so we'll walk through the different segments and where we stand on the journey. We talked a lot about digital banking. We didn't talk a lot -- as much about retail. So we'll talk about retail and what we're doing on the retail platform. We'll talk about hospitality, where we compete and how we compete in SMB and enterprise. And we'll talk a lot about payments and what we're doing on the payments side because that's a little bit -- it's bigger than our Cardtronics. We'll talk about where we see that going. So ultimately, we -- people have to believe that we can compete in the segments. We'll give it more clarity. Last year, we brought that a little bit. You saw us go break it down a little bit more, give a little more detail and maybe share some more KPIs going forward.

That's great. I'm looking forward to it. Before we close out, any final thoughts for those listening that you want to share about the business in general?

Yes. You had a good outline of questions. I do think NCR, we're 3 years in the transformation. We'll talk about that on December 9, kind of where we are in the path. You highlighted it right up front, the shift to 80%-60%-20%. We're probably going to get up on stage and say we kind of got there 2 years early. We accomplished some of these goals ahead of plan. We are much more a software platform company today than a hardware company. The market still views us much like a hardware company. And we know we've got some work to do to get out and share that message where we are. By no means are we there at the end. We still have some work to do. We still have some upside. But we think we're poised to compete very strongly in our market segment. And so I think we just want people to understand the new NCR story, where we are, where we're going, and continue to build that confidence in NCR. We've built back the confidence from the customers. I talked about our NPS stores more than tripled in the last few years. We've built back our team and changed the culture internally. We probably haven't got the whole investment community on board with who we are today versus who we were 10 years ago.

Yes, these perception shifts tend to take time. But execution cures is a lot of ills. So consistency in messaging and execution. So looking forward to following the story more closely. This has been a great conversation. Thanks so much, Mike. I appreciate you joining us today, and I really appreciate your time.

Great. Thanks, Andrew.

Thanks, everyone, for listening in.