Neste Oyj (NESTE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello all. I hope you can hear me. My name is Anssi Tammilehto, I'm the Head of IR at Neste. Welcome to our pre-silent call regarding our Q1 performance and current topics. The silent period starts on March 29, and the Q1 financial results will be published on April 28 of '24 -- '23. There are still participants joining, but I think for the benefit of time, we need to kick this call off and give the word to our CFO, Martti Ala-Harkonen, who will now walk you through some of the topics or items this quarter and some practical matters with regards to our pre-silent calls going forward. Thank you. And Martti, the floor is yours.

Yes. This is Martti here. Thank you, Anssi, and good afternoon also on my behalf, and welcome everybody to this pre-silent call for Neste. We will first go shortly through the topical items including our outlook as stated in our financial statement release from February this year. My review will be this time and also going forward, somewhat shorter than before. And before we open for questions, we will also have a look at some of the current topics announced during the first quarter. We have compound together what we call the IR newsletter and I will take a few highlights from there before we close up for questions. But naturally, we will finally have time for questions as well. So starting with the outlook. So with only a couple of days of the quarter still to go, our view of the first quarter performance is, again, starting to shape up. And generally speaking, the outlook provided for the quarter in the beginning of February remains valid. All forward-looking statements relating to the second quarter and the full year of this year, remain to be published in the interim report published on April 28. As we stated in our outlook for the first quarter, visibility in the global economy continues to be low due to high inflation, reduced economic growth expectations and continued geopolitical uncertainty. But let's now go through the businesses one by one and start with the renewable products. In the renewable products side, our first quarter sales volumes they were expected to be somewhat lower than in the previous quarter. Like we told at our fourth quarter reporting, the volumes are affected negatively by a 1-month shutdown at the Rotterdam refinery due to an occurrence of a fire in a process unit in late December. One can estimate the effect to our sales volume from the fact that our nameplate capacity at Rotterdam is currently roughly 1.4 million tons a year. And now there was a 1-month unplanned shutdown, so hence an impact of roughly One-twelfth of a year. And additionally, as always, the final figure will also depend on the completion of the last deliveries of the month. As to our utilization, otherwise, except for the Rotterdam shutdown, our renewable products facilities have been running at high utilization rates. When it comes to feedstocks, the waste and residue markets were anticipated to remain tight generally as there is growing demand expected. However, as we said in the earnings call in February -- in early February, the waste and residue markets have been attractive in the beginning of the year, and this has also continued so far during the quarter. The vegetable oils complex has, generally speaking, been trending downwards due to the weaker economic activity and the uncertainties in the macroeconomic environment. However, of note that palm oil prices have, to some extent, resisted this trend due to, for example, heavy rainfalls, Indonesian exports curtailment and Indonesian domestic mandate. Animal fat has been traded at the lower levels than the previous quarter in all our markets, it's of note. And also used cooking oil has been trending lower, especially in the U.S. But overall, for UCO less than the animal fat prices. Our first quarter comparable sales margin is currently expected to be within the range of USD 825 to USD 925 per ton supported by the attractive waste and residue prices in the beginning of the year. Feedstock market development continues to be a key driver, as mentioned. Energy prices were expected to decrease even further from the fourth quarter levels, and this has actually also been the case during the quarter. With our new hedging policy, we are approximately at 50% POGO hedging ratio in the first quarter of this year, slightly below the fourth quarter level, which was 56%. And at present, our full year hedging ratio stands at 30%. But in line with the hedging policy, we look forward to increase in each quarter also going forward, the overall hedging ratios. As to our fixed costs, we expect it to be approximately about EUR 10 million higher than in the previous quarter for Renewable Products, driven by the buildup of our capabilities related to the upcoming start of our growth projects. The current estimate is slightly lower than the previous estimate. And then as to our capacity expansion projects in renewables, we are happy to report the production of our Phase I comments at our joint operation margin as renewables facility in early to mid-February as planned. The share of production from first quarter for Martinez, however, still be only quite minor only a couple of tens of kilotons. As to the opening of our Singapore expansion on the other hand, we have previously said that we target opening by the end of the first quarter of this year. Now there's still only one week to go in March for the end of the quarter, and let's see if we manage the opening in the original schedule or somewhat later in the next couple of weeks. No larger delay if that would be the case, however, expected at Singapore. Let's then move to the Oil Products. When thinking about the oil products first quarter, our first quarter total refining margin was expected to remain solid, but somewhat lower compared to the fourth quarter of this -- fourth quarter of last year. The first quarter sales volumes were forecasted to be at approximately the same levels as in the previous quarter. As to the market in this segment, the crude oil prices has been falling, especially during the end of the quarter amid the nervousness in the financial sector. Refining margins have been at roughly expected levels rising, again, towards the end of the quarter, supported by the spring refinery maintenance, the French labor union strike and Russian oil product supply risks. In February, actually, the cracks went lower when the sanctions for the Russian diesel came into force, but however, they have started then actually to recover now, again, in March. And then finally, briefly about Marketing & Services. In Marketing & Services, the sales volumes and unit margins were expected to follow the previous year's seasonality part in the first quarter. Also the slowing economy was expected to have some negative impact on the overall demand. From a demand point of view, the road traffic is recovering, but heavy traffic is still decreasing recovery in the ABS sectors continues. Warm weather has impacted light fuel oil demand. So to conclude, to have sort of a group view and as a summary for the group overall, we expect to have another strong quarter in the first quarter. And overall speaking, like I started with, the outlook provided for the quarter in the beginning of February remains valid. Before closing up, I want to highlight another important event in the quarter on March 9, we informed that we have -- we are issuing EUR 500 million green bond with a 6-year maturity and another EUR 500 million green bond with a 10-year maturity under our EMTN or euro medium-term out program that was established on the 6th of March. The proceeds from these issues will be applied for eligible growth projects and assets related to renewable products as set out in our green finance framework. To close up the major uncertainties regarding market developments and declining economic growth outlook continue, but we are confident that we will be able to navigate through them. Our growth strategy is intact, and we continue to execute it decisively. This concludes my introduction regarding the first quarter -- or first outlook -- quarter outlook. And I would now like to summarize some of the key activities and announcements that we have made during the first quarter. They can also be found in our newly -- new quarterly IR newsletter like I mentioned in the beginning, which you can find after this call at our website. And Susanna here is now opening the pre-silent call newsletter and then scrolling it a little bit through. The idea with this is that with our newsletter and news structure, is to further develop transparency to investors. And also the invitation to this call is now also open both the sales side and buy side investors as well as anyone else interested. So let us briefly look at a few topics from our IR newsletter. Firstly, we are mentioning here our reporting dates. [ Ansii ] mentioned that the silent period will start now on Wednesday. And it's also stated there that we will publish our first quarter results on Friday, 28th of April at around 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time. Important notices to the Capital Markets Day. It is now scheduled on the 20th of June in London. The invitation with program details will be published closer to the event, and you are all very warmly invited. Then we have there some of the most important announcements during the first quarter, making -- taking there maybe some highlights. The AGM invitation, we will have our AGM actually tomorrow. The financial statements as well as the annual report have been published. I mentioned we have established a euro medium-term note program. There is a further announcement on that. And we also announced simultaneously a tender offer of our outstanding notes maturing in June 2024, which actually already result in a purchase of almost EUR 200 million in aggregate nominal amount of the older notes. And we can say we are satisfied with the outcome through that for Neste. We are now mature proactively managing our debt maturities. Also, if you go further there is a high number of different press releases. As an example, we have made, I think, a total of 8 new announcements on SAF deals and other aviation milestones. As an example, Finnair is buying 750 tons and Emirates is operating 100% SAF demo flight, just to name a few examples. And other announcements from the past quarter include, for example, the inauguration of our Innovation Center in Singapore and many interesting developments during the quarter indeed. And thereafter, you can find that regarding the IR activities during the quarter, we have met the investors in London, Frankfurt, Paris and Singapore as well as here in Finland and the upcoming activities can be also found in the newsletter, they include events in London, Boston, and New York, to name a few. And going forward, we are very happy to collect feedback concerning the IR newsletter from every one of you. Also you can find there the latest one census estimates. So with this, I would like to thank you for your attention. And now we would be very happy to answer your questions.

Josh Stone from Barclays. Maybe I'll kick off. A couple of questions, please. You mentioned the hedging results. Your last quarter, you said it was a clear material negative. So on an absolute basis, is it neutral? Is it positive? Is it still negative? Could you maybe just talk more about that? And also just linked to that, how much data do you actually have? Are you still missing data when you're making these comments? And then the second question on inventory. You talked about the size of the inventory builds ahead of these project startups in the first quarter and the impact that might have on working capital as well.

Excellent question. So first -- the first question was on -- sorry, I just missed it. Hedging. I was just writing things down. So I do expect a neutral impact from hedging for the first quarter. And at this point, I don't expect any sort of negative handovers from last year's at this point of time, if I look further to this year. But of course, everything will depend in the end, then also the movements, but it's better to state for one quarter a time. So neutral for first quarter. And then the inventory buildup, it is true. There will be some buildup in the inventories because of the ramp-ups now already and also in the first quarter, we have to typically pile up also for raw material inventories a bit when we are preparing for the ramp-ups and a little bit effect from this -- from the Rotterdam fire as well. And mainly also for the aviation SAF ramp-up, which is an important ramp-up. It binds to a certain extent, net working capital in the first half of the year.

Sasikanth from Morgan Stanley. I had a couple of questions. First, on sales volumes, I suppose if you were to exclude the effect of the Rotterdam outage, you've highlighted the one month out of 1.4 million tons, how would that -- how would sales volumes compare versus last quarter, excluding this effect, if there was any guidance on that? And regarding the sales margin, it seems like the delivery or what you have seen in the first quarter is pretty much in terms -- in line with your expectations, would that mean in your margins itself, there's a certain derisking of the margins towards your upper end of the range? Just wanted some clarity on that as well.

Excellent questions, again. So on the sales volume, I mentioned that from a production point of view, if you lose sort of one-twelfth, roughly EUR 1.4 million, you are roughly somewhere plus/minus of 120 kilotons. And is that the same impact then in sales, but it's some kind of a benchmark estimate anyway, sorry, I do -- we do foresee a lower sales volume in the first quarter compared to both fourth quarter and last year's. But otherwise, excluding that, I think it has been pretty much normal. That was also your question. So it comes really from the Rotterdam impact. And then you mentioned also the sales margin. I would say, delivery sort of as expected. So I think the main thing is the feedstock prices, which have actually continued to be lower also during the quarter, you could say. So what we said in early to mid-February when we reported the full year results. So that has, of course, sort of a favorable impact. But I would say that as expected regarding the outlook.

It's Raphaël DuBois from SG. I have two questions, please. The first one is on what you said about the hedging. I'm a bit lost here because in 4Q last year, on average, the POGO spread was highly negative around $100 per ton and even beyond that. And so far, this quarter is on average above $50 per ton. So unless you took all your positions toward the end of the year, I can't quite understand how it can be only neutral. It should be positive as far as I understand. So maybe you can shed a bit more light on that? And the second question is on the feedstock. Could you please remind us how long does it take for the falling animal fat and used cooking oil prices feed through your margins positively?

Okay, the first question. Well, our sales margin -- comparable sales margin for Renewable Products was USD 783 per ton in the fourth quarter. And now we had quite a higher range, USD 825 to USD 925 per ton. So I think at least I'm sticking to what I was saying. So neutral impact as I look today. And then on the feedstocks, it comes quite with an immediate impact to our margin, the impact from the different feedstock markets to our result.

Just maybe on the hedging. So when you say it's neutral, it doesn't mean that you have not made money with your hedging. In fact, it can well be positive, bringing to a sales margin per ton, which is in line with what you expected. That's how to understand it?

Well, I was thinking -- actually, what is the impact to our margin or EBITDA or sales margin as an overall impact from the -- what we make the margin hedges? So one has to take into account that there is -- of course, as we do now on a quarterly basis, the hedges, there are a lot of hedges that come to realize at a particular quarter. So it has a -- you cannot just look at fourth quarter and first quarter as impacts.

It's Henri Patricot from UBS. A couple of questions. The first one, just on the sales volumes this quarter, if you can make any comment around the mix between the U.S. and Europe, whether you're seeing some changes there? And then secondly, just on the Singapore expansion. Just any particular comment to convene as to what maybe taking just a little bit longer in whether there's any indication in terms of equity ramp-up overall capacity and [ staff ] capabilities to the rest of the year?

Just answering first on the Singapore. So we said at the end of last year or actually in mid-February that the mechanical completion of the Singapore was kind of ready by the end of last year. And then we said that during the first quarter, we have the usual commissioning phase where we have to run through all kinds of tests and get certain permits and regulatory approvals, safety issues, et cetera, to be able to start up. And what I was only alluding to that, if there would be any sort of delay, we are not expecting anything material there. But I don't have -- even I don't have an exact new date, no, it's still, I think, a little bit pending depending on this stage where we will end up eventually. And then you were -- you had a second question, sorry, on sales volumes? Could you repeat?

Could you speak between the U.S. and Europe this quarter...

Okay. No specific large-scale change there what we've seen. It has hovered, say, between 32 to 35, maybe U.S. and the rest in Europe. So pretty much in those lines as what we've seen in the last few quarters currently. And we will also have couple of kilotons production from -- for our share from the Martinez joint operation that has started, but it's still quite minor. And of course, whether we sell it, I mean, it will be very marginal, if anything, from there in our sales. Typically, you're a little bit pile up to the inventory first and then you sell it to the customers. So it won't even the same impact as from the production to the sale of that, only a few kilotons perhaps sold from that during the quarter, if any.

Is Pablo Cuadrado from Kepler Cheuvreux. Two quick questions on my side. Just on this, Martinez, can you remind us what's either with the deadline or the timing that you have in place for the pretreatment capacity in order as you start to well to build on that, just to see when potentially that's going to be coming on stream to have an idea. And the second one is -- I'm sorry, because I don't know if I missed that. If you can remind us which is the expectation on fixed costs on the oil products side? We have seen quite a tremendous decline year-to-date on European gas prices. I know that you shifted with a lot to propane, but just to have a little bit of a view on that.

Okay. Yes. On the Martinez, like I said, the Phase I, which is without the pretreatment, nameplate capacity at 750 kilotons. Our share, half of that, so 375. And to your question, when the pretreatment capacity would be ready. There has been a little bit of, I think, two-sided communication there. We have said the main target is by the end of the year. We haven't set any more precise month when we will be up and running and at times, it has been said that autumn -- late autumn. So we're going to come back later on a more exact dating, but anyway before the end of the year, that's the target. And on the fixed cost for oil products, just one notion that we have ongoing, what we had an important release in September that we have -- we are undergoing a strategic study looking at an option whether we could also going to strategically converting Porvoo into a renewable and circular hub. And related to that, we have some, you could say, extra costs. But otherwise, I don't foresee much of extra other fixed costs much rising. So if you go on those routes, whatever will be the outcome, there may be some further cost. But otherwise, I think our cost base have been quite stable on the oil products side. Then always, of course, if we have any sort of unplanned shutdowns or would have that then shows also in the cost base. There is more repair costs, but nothing sort of specific to report really on the fixed cost of oil products.

Artem Beletski from SEB. One question relating to phasing of Singapore start-up, could you maybe just comment on as a time frame you expect basically also SAF capabilities be ready there and maybe there is some timing also relating to pretreatment related investments wins also accomplished or basically up and running at Singapore.

Yes. So we have said after commissioning, it takes about 3 to 6 months if we are really well 3 or a couple of months more to be in nameplate capacity. So currently, our target is still that by the very end of the second quarter, we could already have a clearly higher output for SAF. And then more, I think, during the third quarter, we could then stabilize the sort of nameplate to have this 3 to 6 months applied also to SAF. That's our current plan. But in the first few months of April, it won't yet be that high production. It takes time to ramp up.

It's Erwan from RBC. I've got a clarification question on the Singapore expansion project, can you just repeat what's driving a potential slight delay? You mentioned earlier on the call that the expansion might not take place in this last week of the first quarter. This is my first question. And then I guess, second question, just on the feedstock, are we on the same -- broadly the same level of palm oil in the feedstock mix? And I know, obviously, 2023 is the year that you're supposed to phase it out from your feedstock? And then last question, slightly longer term, 2023 is, obviously, a big year for Neste, but not only for Neste with the Singapore expansion and the sub volumes finally taking off. Do you still view the global like supply and demand landscape the same you would have seen a year ago with a number of peers launching capacity in renewable diesel and sustainable aviation fuel space. These are my three questions.

Yes. Excellent questions. So first on the Singapore start-up. So as soon as we have something more concrete to report, we will, of course, do that. So like I said, let's see what happens. I said either this week or quite soon thereafter. There can always be this last few week delays. So we'll still have nothing specific such it's more sort of normal commissioning type of what I'm hearing at moment. So does this not have happened, for instance, when we have in a month's time, our reporting day, then there must have been something more, but that's not what I have information at this stage for myself. Then you mentioned the palm oil. I'm not sure if I caught you fully, but we are very committed to come out of palm oil using that by the end of this year for ourselves like we have said before. And I think earlier just mentioned that just the other feedstock prices, they have moved sort of trended downwards in the early part of the year, but the crude palm oil has actually trended or been stable or even slightly upward. So what I mentioned earlier, heavy rainfalls, Indonesia, again, curtailing exports and so forth. But then probably the most important question you had, I mean, this is really, of course, key the supply-demand balance and the outlook what we see. And that's something we definitely try to touch upon in more detail at our Capital Markets Day on the 20th of June. So far, we have been still coming back to mainly to what we have reported 1.5 years at our CMD, and those you can find in the old CMD materials. So that's what we will be out there. Just as a -- maybe one further comment there that at least on the SAF, I think we see quite positive momentum, but everything we will update on the demand side than our views in the CMD more detail.

This is Jason Gabelman from TD Cowen. I wanted to ask two questions. First to clarify the Renewable Products volume guidance. You mentioned, outside of the Rotterdam fire, volumes weren't that impacted. But I believe there wasn't 4Q a cargo delivery that got shifted from 3Q to 4Q. And is that going away in 1Q? And what's the impact to volumes there? Or is that being offset by something else? And then secondly, just going back to SAF, I was wondering if you could comment on pricing. Are you getting a premium for SAF relative to the renewable diesel you sell? And if so, can you quantify that?

Jason. So just on the RP volumes, so we said in the third quarter, that's correct. Then we had at the terminals congestion, particularly in Holland and a little bit also in U.S., some batches. We couldn't recognize in that quarter. So I think all that is offset. That's not something we are seeing at this point. Having said that, always, there are, at the end of the quarter, certain sort of batches and shipments that can go to one quarter or the other, but nothing of that sort. And then on the SAF premium, the company has been a little bit conservative, perhaps what we have so far always said and continue to say that the price that we expect from SAF that it shouldn't be margin dilutive. We're talking about the comparable sales margin for the company. So because we have this optionality to produce either renewable diesel or renewable aviation fuel. So of course, from our standpoint, we should be gaining a better price to do more on the SAF, which is an important asset there. That's what we've been saying there, and I want to continue by saying that this is an important year for us in ramping up the SAF volumes as such and our capabilities in that side. We will be also driving the market. It's a pretty immature market, a lot of demand there, but how the pricing picture will form out as well. Probably there will be also, hopefully, even a situation more demand and supply, but we have to be careful also how we drive the market. We have also a few different business models. We are a bit testing on that side, depending whether we are supplying to an airline or the airport, et cetera. So also for ourselves, there are a number of issues that we want to come up with, but we are quite confident and happy to report that we've been able to conclude a number of important deals, and you can find many examples also from our web pages, some of which I already mentioned. So it's now try and come up with the ramping up and meeting the targets. But -- and finally, if something more so than at the CMD on the 20th of June.

This is Pasi from Nordea. I would like to ask about your margin guidance. So what is the main reason for a $100 spread on your guidance? I mean the quarter is almost over. And usually, Neste has been able to kind of offer somewhat more narrow range for comparable margin guidance. So what's the main reason behind this $100 spread you are keeping it?

Yes, that's, of course, a quick question here. And we've seen in the past few quarters that somehow our overall share price has been very sensitive to this one single metric, which is a comparable sales margin on a very short-term basis as well. So this is also a very delicate issue for the company. And of course, when we, overall, evaluate the quarter, we are looking at different metrics and parameters overall. And there are many aspects to your question, but I just want to reiterate the outlook that we have provided with the comments made earlier.

Yes, I hear you. But regarding your guidance and the market expectations, I mean, when looking at the previous quarters, you usually end up reporting $30 to $40 per ton higher margin than your guidance midpoint. So is there something wrong with that history you have been posting at? Is there -- do you want to make a kind of change this kind of logic you have been posting a couple of years?

No, I don't want to comment anything on the history just today's situation. So we should try to cut the market correctly. And at the same time, sensing, we've said that there are a lot of volatilities in the market. We have seen it in previous quarters, how it may affect end result. Now what I commented earlier was that from the parameters, particularly the feedstock price movement has been favorable, that I think I just want to highlight again.

Martti, a follow-up question from me, Erwan from RBC. Just on the fixed -- sorry, fixed cost for renewable products. So you confirmed the guidance of additional EUR 10 million. But at first, can you confirm that? And you also -- I think you also mentioned that your new estimate was lower than the one you had upon initially putting out that guidance? Did I hear correctly? And could you correct me if I did not?

Yes, that's what I said. So I think the guidance was EUR 10 million. And I said it may end up a little bit lower. It's good to -- of course, I understand this is, again, only one parameter basically, meaning that the growth has been a bit slower than anticipated in the very beginning of the year. We don't have yet, of course, March figures.

Yes, it's Raphaël DuBois from SocGen. Just would like to ask you another question about the hedging. If memory is right, you said at the last con call that legacy contracts were over and those legacy positions is what brought the material hedging losses in Q3 and especially in Q4. Can you just tell us a bit more about when were the hedges that closed in Q1 2023 taken? My understanding was that it will be pretty much all taken in 4Q 2022, but maybe there were still a bit of positioning that can beforehand, that would be great if you could tell us a bit more about that.

Yes. So early on, the company did is hedging mainly at the end of the year at the time when it was concluding its term contracts. And that was still the fact actually in the end of '21, so the full year of '22, the majority of that was done at the end of the year. And then during last year, we -- as the hedges started to -- the realized hedges are then, again, always in the result, they started to close up with -- we moved in sequence steps to -- mainly to a quarterly policy following a ladder method, which we are now fully applying, of course, from the beginning of this year. And when I said that no legacy hedge impact. So I was probably meaning that sort of such hedging hedges done based on the older oil when we went into the new policy that have provided sort of more negative impacts. But certainly, there are hedgings that are also realizing at the end of the first quarter that we have made before the fourth quarter sometime earlier last year. So it comes through this ladder mechanism. But I think the most important that negative impact we -- is at least what we saw and huge moves last year, unprecedented moves. So it's been -- at least the start of this year, it's been different.

This is Sasi from Morgan Stanley, again. Just a quick clarification on the comments you provided with the full year results. At that time, you had highlighted the Rotterdam downtown -- downtime sorry, would have a negative impact of around EUR 85 million. This was attributed to production losses and repair costs. I was just wondering if that number is still valid.

Yes, that's valid. Yes, that figure is still valid. We said, I think, that the majority of the impact coming into the -- with the impact into the first quarter that we mainly meant that volume, it comes mainly from the lesser volumes as well as some repair costs as well. Yes, we have had a little bit of repair costs also from the getting it back to up and running mainly in January, but that's how you can read it. We haven't precisely told any sales volume figure, but as it's so evident, we said that it's about a 1 month -- it took about 1 month before commencing production. That's why I wanted to give some flesh on the bones or how you take one-twelfth of that you can have some estimate and there is not a full 100% correlation, of course, not with production and sales, but still it's a good sort of benchmark evaluating also the sales volume impacts. And the EUR 85 million was done at -- always we utilize certain sales margin to that. So that -- I don't want to comment any further, but that's...

Yes, please. Maybe one more question from my side. As far as I can see, feedstock costs should have dropped in the quarter more than your selling price, which should lead to an expansion of margin, and that's pretty much what is backed by your margin guidance, putting aside the hedging effects. Are there any sales where the selling price automatically adjusts for the drop in the feedstock costs or not?

If I correct you, you are trying to answer that, do we get the impact from the lower feedstock costs to our margin quite instantaneously. Is that what you are...

Yes, or whether some of your clients will ask for an adjustment immediately post the feed costs?

Okay. I haven't heard that they would have been -- so like earlier, we have said that in the renewable diesel side, we concluded roughly or roughly 75% of our estimated next year sales, these term deal contracts. And those go forward as planned, and then there is still always for about -- I'm talking now about the renewable diesel side. So there's roughly 25% that we sell on the stock market -- spot market, sorry. And yes, that's been the typical. And I haven't heard any adjustments from our customers to this factor of note. Maybe one more comment is that the spot market typically -- because you also utilize more of the diesel when it's the major driving season, for instance, in the road transportation. The spot market typically is a bit more active during the summer months than during the winter months. That's just a general comment. Are there any more questions from the audience?

I hope you can hear me. It's Chris Kuplent from Bank of America. Your comment about the share price sensitivity is intriguing. Would you argue that from the Investor Day, we should expect a conversation that goes beyond quarterly guidance?

I'm not sure if I understood you correctly, sorry, for that. Could you repeat that? Share price sensitivity...

Yes, I'm not sure I understood your comment regarding the share price volatility around your quarterly guidance, which I think we understand what you mean. And I wonder whether you're thinking about framing your outlook differently, particularly when you have the opportunity to update us at the Capital Markets Day in June around something that goes well beyond the quarter, but that also goes well beyond volumes. I'm not sure that has to be dollars per ton margins, right? But I'm basically asking how you are -- what's your view is regarding longer-term earnings guidance?

Yes. So overall, at some point of time, Neste was giving a little bit more full year guidance and outlook and at some point, adopted this quarterly. And our target is, of course, to supply the most transparent information and right level of information to investors. And we are certainly thinking what would be the best option also going forward or if anything that we should be thinking of possibly adjusting. Last week, I was together with Anssi [indiscernible] Roadshow and at least there was 1 large investor just not related to discussing it in any more detail, suggesting that should be just stop giving any sort of sales margin guidance and also that's also one possibility. But let us bear in mind and you are welcome to give your feedback probably particularly sell-side analysts to Anssi and Susanna, if any thoughts from your side. Of course, currently, our thinking would be to continue as is, but we are certainly thinking what would be the right method going forward. And of course, that the CMDs, I think what is much more important is, of course, to look at the longer-term trends and supply-demand pictures and so on. But those, we, of course, hopefully update fully at the CMD. Okay Anssi, I think we are ready to...

Yes, I think so a very good questions and very good comments, thank you very much.

And yes, exactly. So there is about one month to go before we report. So we, of course, again, have our quarterly call then. I think that's on Friday, 28th of April, I think at 3:00 p.m. Eastern Time. So until then, thank you very much. And tomorrow is not yet a pre-silent call day, we have our AGM on that day. So that will take place here physically in Helsinki. So thank you very much for attendance and talk to you later.

Thank you for the participation, and have a very great week. Thank you.