Newcore Gold Ltd. (NCAU) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

[Audio Gap] Gold Exporters & the Price of Gold panel hosted by 6ix. Today's conversation is with the President and CEO of Newcore Gold, Luke Alexander; President and CEO of GFG Resources, Brian Skanderbeg; and White Gold Investor Relations Consultant, Paul Pint. Conversation is going to be about what investors should expect from their gold exploration stocks when gold is in a long-term bull market. Now just to get things started, today, we're not going to be answering any company-specific questions unless it directly contributes to the conversation on hand. But that being said, if you do have a question that you think is really important and key to the conversation, please feel free to submit it in the Q&A chat down on the right-hand side of your screen at any time today, and I'll try my best to incorporate it into the conversation. But gentlemen, thank you for coming on. I'd like to get things kicked off, let's go around the room and introduce ourselves just to lay the foundation for the discussion with your thoughts on the gold price and how gold exploration stocks are performing at the moment. Luke, why don't you start?

Yes. Thanks, Kim and thanks, everyone, for tuning in. So I mean, we've obviously seen in the last 3 years, the gold price pushed through $2,000 in 2020, 2022 and again, this year, we just hit a 52-week high last week at about $2050 per ounce. But ultimately, the gold stocks aren't performing the way they have back in 2020 and 2022. If we look at the GDXJ, where it was trading in 2020, it was at about a 50% premium to where it is today when gold was above $2,000. When we look at it in -- last year in 2022, it was trading at about a 30% premium. So I think a lot of investors are ultimately asking, well, why is it ultimately -- the equities underperforming relative to where they were when we saw gold at these prices before. And I would say probably a big part of the reason for that is ultimately the inflation that we've seen in the sector, if you look at Newmont, for example, which is obviously the largest gold company on the planet, back in 2020, they were forecasting all-in sustaining costs of around $1,000 to $1,050. If you look at what they're forecasting for this year and where they're coming in, they're above $1,200. So I think ultimately, the gold price and the impact that inflation has had directly on gold companies is probably the big reason why we've seen an underperformance. That being said, on the optimistic side of things, I personally think we've seen inflation peak out for a lot of the gold producing companies. And if you start to look at guidance, going forward, and again, I'll use Newmont as the example because it's the largest gold company out there and typically things flow down from there. They are now, again, forecasting that they'll be back into that $1,000 to $1,100 range. So margins will start to improve as costs come down. And I think lastly, if we look at the gold sector as a whole, one of the things that really inevitably ends up driving the equities is generalist investment. If we look at where the gold sector is trading from a EBITDA margin perspective, it's the second most attractive sector across the board at the moment with plus 40% EBITDA margin. So again, you're a generalist investor, my view is, you can't not look at the sector when you see those kind of margins and you see it as the second most attractive sector across the board.

Thanks for that, Luke. Brian, maybe you want to add anything to that or Paul for that matter?

Yes. I mean that's a good snapshot of the space as a whole. I mean, I think from a perspective of a junior or a smaller co, we look at how we trade in and how we might trade from the specifics of the deviance from the majors. And there's always this gap in valuation. I would say that gap has never been larger in terms of where we sit from a junior explorer or junior producer through to the mid-tier, through to a major. And that does reflect a number of things, liquidity challenges. It reflects its fund flow at the investor level. It even was driven by some of the regulatory side of how brokers can invest and play in our space. So it's a complex process of how we attract and how we trade and what drives our valuations. I do think there's a large gap between the juniors. And there's -- to me, the biggest reason is we still lack liquidity. I think the resource-driven investment funds are still not seeing the generalist inflow, as Luke have alluded to, despite where we see margins having gone. So I think when we look at the investment space for the juniors and all the way up to the majors, it's at a position where there's a lot of attractiveness in the sector. Gold is at a -- at/or near an all-time line. And I think whether you're looking at an investment landscape from the producers and the margins they have, which is very attractive, or the junior space where the gap has never been bigger, I think there's opportunities right through the space.

Great. And Paul, over to you.

Yes. I would certainly echo what both of them said but just to add on to that, if you look at the resource funds that are out there and particularly those, there are still a few precious metals funds left. The numbers have dwindled though, for sure since back in 2020 when we last saw gold over $2000. And the other stocks are off -- some of them 50%, 60%, 70% from that point in time, particularly in the junior market. And it has been -- funds flow as well but then a lot of that junior money and has -- was sitting in cryptocurrency and other areas. And some of that money not only did disappear because some of these cryptocurrencies have gone to 0 and that's a discussion for a whole other point. But as mentioned by both Luke and Brian, the generalist isn't there yet. I speak to a lot of funds and family offices. And the precious metals and resource funds are very heavily invested. I know a few funds that are at 50%, 5-0 percent in junior mining and junior precious metals. And I know some generalist funds that are at 0. And so it's really getting those dollars to come back into what is a very attractive time to look at gold equities. And as both Brian, Luke said, there is the gap between not only gold price and where the equities are but where the senior producers and the explorers are, has never been wider. So this is a great opportunity to not only have a call like this for investors to have a good hard look at this space because I think we'll get on to the gold price, what we think about, but I think we could be in for a very, very good market here.

And I think just to add to both of those comments because they're both very good comments. I mean, in terms of -- the money typically starts at the top end. So the generalist investors who are looking at all sectors, that flow of funds from generalist investors often drives the overall gold equities. And as we see those gold margins go from 40% to 30% to 20% and there's still better margins within the mid caps, money starts to flow down from the majors into the mid caps and inevitably into the explorers and the junior sector. One of the things I've seen with a number of dedicated resource investors is that a number of them are taking a barbell approach where they've got either money in the seniors who are paying dividends and are producing or they're on the other end of the spectrum, which is in the exploration side of things. I think in between those two, you're seeing less investment at the moment. And part of that is because of all the inflation that we've seen from a CapEx perspective and a number of the blow-ups that we've seen within the overall sector. So I think being in the junior exploration sector as that money starts to flow into the seniors is a great place to be from that perspective. But we do need to see that money, the generalist money move in because as Paul has highlighted, there hasn't been a huge amount of additional inflows into the dedicated precious metals and resource funds. And a lot of them are one position in, one position out at the moment. And where the sector really moves is when that generalist investor steps in. When you look at the sector as a whole, it's about 1% of total equities globally. And as a result, it doesn't take a lot to push the whole sector.

Yes, that's absolutely correct, Luke. That's a great finale of that unless you want to carry on. We can -- should we move on to -- Kim, would you want to move on to or we got more on this? I think one of the things we should cover somewhere in the here, maybe talk about gold and what we think of the price but also there's a lot of junior mining companies out there and how do you differentiate between where to look for investment and that goes from explorers, goes to developers too.

No, absolutely. I mean let's go right into that. I mean broadly speaking, we've just heard from each of you, your take on this. And generally, I think that you'd all agree that gold explorer share prices just aren't justifiable at the moment. So let's get into some of the reasons or the explanations for the disconnect.

Yes, I can tackle first. I think some of it we already did cover and that is flow of funds into resource dedicated funds, the lack of generalist money flowing into the resource space. And as Luke rightly said, when it starts to come back, which it will and we know that the money, when it starts to flow and gold price looks like it wants to do better and that money starts to flow from generalists then you're going to get that chased effect, right? They're afraid of missing out, it's like people owned Nortel 35 years ago or 30 years ago, whenever it was, because if you didn't get -- own Nortel, you [indiscernible] at least 35% of the index. But there -- as the market moves into the gold space, the money will just start picking up steam. And I think that's something that Luke did mention. And then there's, yes, differentiating between the companies. I think investors have to look at a number of factors. And I'll just start by, if you look at management team, you look at the jurisdiction that the asset is in and obviously, for explorer cos. And I think, Luke, you mentioned I think the barbell approach, I really like that thought, like [indiscernible] you sell in the dream, right? and then you got the seniors that have the cash flow. And I think at some point in here, you're also going to see more and more M&A activity because you do have to start replacing those depleting reserves at the larger players. And that's where I think the -- getting into the explorer cos will be pretty interesting.

Brian or Luke?

Yes. I think part of the challenge we face as a junior space and valuation gap that we see and then where do we go is, they're still -- there's still immense number of juniors. And the theme of consolidation needs to be progressed. And it needs to progress because there isn't enough capital there to fund the number of teams out there. So the one side of it is there's a lot of juniors but not a lot of capital. And so consolidation team needs to work towards it. The other side of it -- of the equation is just what do we yield as a space. And so when I think about it, I'm a technical guy. So I look at exploration trends over time and over decades and we just haven't done as good a job of finding ounces. And so I think as an investor, you really have to look at the teams that have been successfully growing ounces, growing economic resources base that are transaction-oriented that have built value over time. So it does ultimately come down to me, it's the people, it's the people, whether it's GFG, whether it's some of our peer group companies here, trying to find teams that have the capacity, that have the capital behind them, that have a track record of finding deposits and monetizing them or creating value for shareholders is super critical. So I think a smaller group of companies, ultimately, that may be more successful, should be where the junior space would head. And from a investor landscape, you want to look at the people and the track record and the balance sheets. And the other aspect of that is, who is backing these teams. So I'm always looking at who sources capital and [indiscernible] our capital from. Alamos is one of our biggest shareholders. Lundin one of our biggest shareholders. So trying to find groups that have really savvy long-term investors, I think, is a great homework for an investor to cue in, do your research, look at the shareholder base who holds this company, look at their share structure. And that will really flag, I think, the successful juniors out there that are likely to find or more likely to find relevant deposits these days.

Yes. I mean those are all very good points. And maybe just to add to that as well. I mean, just back to the gold price and where we're trading today. I mean, last time -- the last 2 times we saw and especially in 2020, when we saw gold go above $2,000, the floodgates opened and every single company out there could get funded and inevitably, what happens then is there's too much money in the sector. It gets blown, people end up getting their faces ripped off on a bunch of equities that ultimately aren't projects at the end of the day. So I think to Brian's point, in terms of which companies have the solid backing from investors with a long-term focus, with deep pockets, who are ultimately going to be there in the good times and the bad times because they recognize the value of the project. And that inevitably good teams, find good projects and push those projects forward and find world-class investors to back those projects. So similar with us. We've got a strong institutional list with Franklin Templeton and Ruffer and Merk and SSI, these again, similar to what Brian was highlighting with Alamos and Lundins and groups like that, they take a 5-year view on these projects and they're not just there for the quick spike in gold price. So encouragingly, we haven't seen a huge amount of money flow into the space. And hopefully, there'll be more disciplined as we continue to trade above this $2,000 level.

Yes, I think that's right, guys. I mean you look at that shareholder base and I'll have to chime in for White Gold because Agnico is a 20% shareholder and Kinross at just around 50%. And obviously, there's Eric Sprott in there and a few institutions. And you're right, you need that ability because, of course, none of these junior explorer cos have any revenue. So you're constantly in a financing window of some sort. And whether gold is at $2,000 or $1,500, you got to make sure that your backers are there and that you have, right -- the right team in place and the right asset that they're going to be there in the good and bad times. And as an investor, that's certainly what an investor should look for. And that's actually what I look for when I left Troilus after helping to found Troilus, that's why White Gold is one of the ones that really attracted me and just for that reason. And so I think that's something that investors should look at.

Absolutely. And I mean -- so I think you guys have all been talking about this but definitely the price of gold is looking promising. And there's talk about the market getting excited and if the money is going to come back into the industry and how -- I know, Brian, you definitely touched on this, how prudent the management team is going to finance at the right time for their shareholders. But obviously, more often than not the market is out of favor and management needs to finance or the drills are going to stop turning. So maybe we can just go into a discussion about financing options. And if the speculator should hold or sell positions based on company's need for financing.

Yes. It's always a tricky path in terms of -- I look at it from both standpoints. If I look at it from an investor standpoint, I always want to see a company that has strong shareholder base that will continue to support it. So if you're looking at a group that has long-term investors that have backed it -- you know the financing is going to get done, you know you're not going to hang a deal but it's also how aggressively they have to price it. So do we need to do a full warrant, do we need to do a half warrant, what's the discount price? What's the -- do you want to use [indiscernible] exemption, do you want to stick with [indiscernible], all these structures are there. But I think, ultimately, what you want to find is companies taking money when maybe they don't have to take money because they'll get a better deal for it. And companies that have strong factors that can put the leads to wrap up financing around. In terms of individual investors selling shares, holding the shares into it, that's so much of an individual call on a prospective investor, do they need the liquidity or not? How do they want to view it? I think if you're seeing a really aggressively -- a deal that comes out that has a full warrant, is discounted hard, you definitely need to be careful of those. You're going to have the wrong style of investors in those. And the company, if they have to take that deal, they probably are in a position where they don't have much negotiating strength on price. So I think it is very important for investors to look at when the company is raising capital, the structure, the discount rate and who's participating in it with you in this investment round.

Yes. I think specifically to your question about selling into potential deals and companies that need money and so on and so forth. I mean the big risk there becomes, sometimes a financing becomes the catalyst to significantly rerate the stock. And by not holding a position because you think something is going to happen. Inevitably, financings can happen with strategic investors, where there isn't any stock available to the market with a select group of institutional investors. So there's lots of different ways, financings can ultimately transpire and trying to ultimately time that can often lead to a situation where you don't own the stock that you want to own and you don't actually have an opportunity to buy it and the financing becomes the 20% or 30% catalyst to move the stock higher because inevitably, that's what the market was waiting for. So I think having fundamental long-term views on companies is generally the best approach.

Yes. And Luke and Brian, I would say, again, when I was management at Troilus, one of the first questions and that was like, one of the first questions you get from a shareholder is, so what's your cash position, right? And then the second question is, what's your burn rate? And so the one thing I think that's really important when investors are looking at companies, make sure that the management team are -- and obviously the Board as well, that they're good stewards of your capital. And by that is that if there's x millions in and they say they're going to have a budget of whatever, $5 million or $6 million of drilling this year, so they don't need to finance until next December at the end of the season or whatever that is, then if you -- if there's a habit of -- and we've seen this before, where they're like, yes, we're good for 12 months and all of sudden, they're financing 4 months later, that's something that an investor needs to be wary of, I think. So you look at the track record of the management team and the company and how their financing track record is. And in Canada, luckily, there's another avenue and we don't have to go too deep in this but it's also the charity side of things where you can do charity flow-through deals. And when markets are a little tougher and stocks are a little weaker, you can still command a premium on that -- on those stocks. Now you do run into some issues -- not issues but sometimes you got to find a back-end buyer and that might be difficult. And I echo your point, Brian, I think you brought it up when you see a lot of deals being done where there's half warrants and full warrants, then you might be getting some of the investor base that is not as friendly and supportive as others.

The other thing, I mean, just to add to that point, Paul, what you're making is insider ownership. I think that's a key element, is when you've got a management team and Board who own a lot of the company and are ultimately thinking as shareholders, then for us, we own 24% of Newcore. So our view is that the amount -- the money going into the ground is where we're going to create the most value for shareholders and inevitably as 24% owners for ourselves. So we're also very conscious of dilution. So any time a management team owns a lot of the company then they're thinking as shareholders and they're very sensitive to dilution. Whereas when you potentially get teams who aren't aligned that way, then they may be more interested in salaries and bonuses and those kind of things. So just to kind of echo Paul's point, I think that's another thing to look at in terms of companies in management and insider ownership.

Great. So there's definitely obviously green flags to look for and a bit of a pivot here but thinking about what's actually happening now. The market is very hard to excite sometimes. And especially, there are news items that come out that in the past would typically warrant rerating in the stock price. But it's not seeming to have the same effect sometimes, rather individuals are using these events as liquidity events, do you guys see this trend changing anytime soon?

Yes. In terms of this -- I think it's a reflection of where the market is in general. And if we had a soft period of time, investors are naturally looking for liquidity. And if as a sector, we don't provide them liquidity for a given amount of time, then they look and take what is there. And so news releases turning into liquidity events sometimes reflect just a share base that hasn't been provided anything in terms of adequate exit strategy. And it does fundamentally reflect on a company's shareholder base to start with. Do you have shareholders that are aligned with the time frame that you need to deliver the results that are going to make it a meaningfully different -- meaningful difference to driving value for the company? Are you looking to have 2-, 3-, 5-year windows to generate those exit strategy valuation jumps that we all hope to have? And when you find that some companies will end up having a shareholder base that's not aligned with what they can deliver and the end result is turning these things into liquidity events, something we're all very keen to, I think, avoid, is that you want to provide liquidity to your shareholders that's aligned with what they expect when they do the financing.

Yes, I mean, market sentiment, that's probably the key thing for liquidity events leading to positive reaction in share prices versus negative reaction in share prices. I mean, if you look at the EV sector and when there was a whole bunch of pandemonium in that space, you could put out any drill results, any news release and the stock would typically move up on very, very good volume. I mean we've seen it in the past, without a doubt, in the gold sector as well. When you've got that momentum in the sector, inevitably, people are looking for reasons to buy and looking for reasons why stocks are going to rerate. So inevitably, whether it's drill results or economic studies or production beats, all of those things become positive liquidity events. I think in a market like this, where we still haven't seen a lot of funds flow -- fund flow into the sector, inevitably, those events have been either muted and probably on balance, have caused negative reactions in the stock price. So I think a lot of it comes back to circular discussion of a number of these points, which is, where is the appetite for the sector at the moment. And it's turning positive, which is great. But I think for the last 1 year or 2 years, a lot of these things have been negative events.

Yes. I'll just echo those. I don't think we need to beat this, as Luke said, we're kind of going in circles on this but really that the general market sentiment towards the sector is feeling like it's turning. And I think those press releases and economic phase now will start to then trigger more positive events, right? And that's just the momentum of the market, right?

Absolutely. So there are different stages of exploration companies, obviously. And when a company is at the stage of determining if the deposit is economically feasible, a discount rate is used. Gold explorers, for some reason, are given a more advantageous lower discount rate than, say, a copper or a base metal explorer. And I wanted to just ask the group, is this logical and justifiable? And where does that come from?

This one's end up, Brian.

Yes. No, we chatted a little bit on this previously. And I really think that if you follow this multiple that's allocated, the discount rate that's allocated to copper versus gold, there are trends to it. And to me, it fundamentally, it reflects gold functions as commodity and currency, copper functions as commodity. Now that gap has at times been larger than it is right now. And I do think the copper multiple is -- has actually improved materially. I'm involved in another company at a board level and we do sometimes look at this trade-off of are there -- is there investor return and real value to be unlocked by adding copper to a gold company or does it inversely trade at copper multiple with as opposed to a gold multiple. So I think it's a worthy look from an investor standpoint to understand why this multiple, is this discount rate is there and why it's applied differentially. Some fundamentally really to me, relates to gold function as a currency, some functions to me is the natural progression of deposits, copper deposits are much higher capital intensity. They're much longer-term projects, they're much larger and inherently they are higher risk, hence a higher discount rate to be applied to them. If you got to sell a concentrate and build a smelter and this whole into developing a copper business, I think inherently, that's why you see differential discount rates applied to these two. Now copper is a very future-looking metal right now. And I think if you look at the multiples in the copper space, they've improved in there, at times equaling where gold multiples are. So it's an interesting one that sentiments shifted and brought copper on par, in my mind to where gold has traded at times.

Yes, I think that's a good answer, Brian. I don't have a whole lot to add except, I guess, we talked a little bit about this too, like jurisdiction and other factors can certainly affect a discount rate. So investors should watch for that, too.

No, absolutely. And just speaking about higher risk jurisdictions versus a lower risk jurisdiction, a potential speculator might be searching for an exploration company that's deemed cheap and they find these cheap stocks are in less favorable jurisdictions. But how does the potential speculator value these less tangible metrics when considering a company?

So again, I think we've talked about a number of parameters investors should look at. And Brian and Luke, I think said it, first and foremost, the people behind the management team, the Board, are they good stewards of capital, have they done it before, what's the investor base look like? And certainly jurisdiction and I'll just give my two cents on this. I think jurisdiction has always mattered and being in countries where there is a rule of law has always mattered. And we've seen examples in the past, that I won't go into them but where you've seen the nationalization of assets. And coming off the last 3 years of the global situation that we all went through, there are likely a lot of countries that are in significant financial peril. And you have to really pay attention if you're looking to invest in a country as such, you have to, again, back to like rule of law and like that type of situation. So a safer jurisdiction, I think, is one that is very high up on -- or should be very high up on the investor list.

Yes. I think we get asked this question a lot because we're operating in Ghana, which is a less familiar jurisdiction than obviously, Canada or the U.S., where a number of the investors who ultimately are investing in our company's reside, so they're more comfortable with those jurisdictions, G7 countries, all the rest of it. One of the things that we point to is, who's operating in the country that you're looking at investing in because at the end of the day, as a single asset CEO, I would suggest don't listen to what I say because I'm 100% biased when it comes to jurisdiction. It could be the greatest jurisdiction on the planet and I can come up with all the reasons for that, right. Looking at who's operating in the country is a very simple way to kind of approach it in my view. And if you look at -- again, I'll use Ghana just because that's where we're operating but we've got 3 of the top 10 largest gold producers on the planet there. It's Africa's largest gold producer. So Newmont is going from 14% to 20% of global production. Gold Fields has meaningful operations, AngloGold, Shandong has moved into the country. So when you take that as a way of just doing a simple screening of a country, I think it's a pretty good starting point because inevitably, you can imagine the size of the political risk team and the security teams at those major mining companies and the amount of work that they do to become comfortable with those countries. That being said, if you look at someone like Robert Friedland, he's been able to navigate where -- what the market would often consider challenging jurisdictions but as a result of being able to navigate those and operate in those, again, challenging or perceived more challenging jurisdictions, throughout his career, he's seen absolute outsized returns. Similarly, if you look at Barrick and Mark Bristow, I mean the reason Randgold and now Barrick has often seen outsized returns from their projects is because they've gone to more challenging jurisdictions. And if you look at what some of those companies are doing today, they're continuing to go to what would be perceived more challenging jurisdictions because the economics of those projects in those jurisdictions create enough outsized return that it's attractive to go to those jurisdictions. So it's, you can look at -- we can dissect this for the next 4 hours but those would be a couple of the high-level comments I'd make.

Yes. Luke, I think, very good point, actually. I sit on the Board of a small junior and it's in Chile. And when I went around talking about it, they're like, given the political perception that's been going on there for the last couple of years, they're like, "Oh my God, Chile." And then you go and you look on the ground and exactly what you said, when you talk to the workers on the ground and you have the seniors all around you, like you mentioned, it's the substance over form, if you want to look at it that way, right, a reality over perception. And so I think jurisdiction absolutely matters but right alongside that, like you said, if you have concerns about a jurisdiction then look and see, well, if Barrick is there, if Newmont is there, if Kinross is there, if Agnico is there, B2, then you get a much more comfortable feeling of being in that square.

Well, then it comes back to your earlier point about team, teams find good assets. And I would also say teams are inevitably able to navigate more challenging jurisdictions. I mean, another great example would be B2Gold. I mean you look at where they've built the bulk of their assets, it's all been in jurisdictions where there's been significant outsized reward for operating and building them.

Yes. No, that's awesome. It's a great insight into maybe a jurisdiction that somebody might not know a lot about and things that they need to -- steps they need to take. And also, I think a good example of Newcore, Luke. And I'd love to actually go over to Brian and Paul now. Just to get a look also at your companies operating in North America. The big point there is, people might be more familiar with it but of course, there are 4 seasons and exploration isn't going to be happening as much potentially there might be limiting factors that you can't work year-round. I just really wanted to ask both of you, can we get some insights into where you guys are working? And how significant these factors play in an attractiveness of an exploration story?

Yes. Look, I mean, from our perspective, the Abitibi, which is where we're focused and here I am in Saskatoon. We have a snowstorm today, enjoying the seasonality sort of, we're used to it. I think it is very project specific in terms of seasonality, as it relates to our personal path, I don't see a big issue to it. And ultimately, what I'm most concerned with as a CEO is, can we generate consistent momentum to a story, consistent news? Well, can we meet investor expectations in terms of growing value? And if we can execute drilling 2, 3, 4 seasons throughout the year, we can drill consecutively or continuously maybe with the exception of [ fit around breakup ]. That's very manageable from our perspective. So I think with respect to where we work in the Abitibi and the seasonality of the work, it's very manageable. There are portions of the jurisdiction that tend to be more winter-focused, depending if you're out there in a deep swamp or access quite differentially, maybe you're up in the territories. Maybe you're on the end of a glacier and maybe you get heavy snowfall, which has more seasonal impact on your news flow. But I think, generally, if you look at many of the companies that work in the Abitibi here, we're more than able to provide continuous news flow and growth and manage what is the seasonality of the exploration.

Yes. And so for White Gold, those who don't know it, White Gold operates in the Yukon, just south of Dawson City. It is seasonal. The drills are just starting to get assembled now. The drilling season will kick off towards the end of the month, early May and run right through September, October. So from that standpoint, it is -- it's a very newsy story for 6, 7, 8 months and then it can get a little quieter after that. But the company is able to manage that seasonality through marketing and doing things like this. So from an investor standpoint, I think the big news comes during the season of drilling. The other thing, I wanted to mention this earlier and now I just lost my train of thought, oh, back to jurisdiction, just because -- and Luke, you made a very good point about perceived. And I want to bring this up with Canada because Canada is perceived as a very safe jurisdiction and it is. It's a very good jurisdiction for mining but you then still have to go back to the management team and the Board. And are they doing all the right things that you need to do from an environmental perspective, from a First Nations indigenous perspective. And all that comes to play. And so it just -- you can't just go, oh, they're in Canada, so I'm going to buy the stock because the management team is not doing all the right things at the right time, then you can fall into some really big traps and I know we've seen that happen before in the space. But from a seasonality perspective, back to your question, I think that's all I really have to say on that. We deal with it at White Gold. We deal with it very well. And there's one other comment. It is interesting with White Gold in the Yukon, in particular, everybody remembers the Klondike Gold Rush, it was 125 years ago. And for 100 years, there was really no modern exploration then in what is perceived that could be the next Timmins or Abitibi, right? This whole thing, there was just placer mining, right, riverbeds. And so it's really interesting to see, and Shawn Ryan was a great prospect, was the one who started all this 20 years ago. But to see that this placer mining, you had to find -- gold didn't fall out of the sky, right? So it came from the ground. So it was -- but I'm amazed that for 100 years, nobody thought about where is this gold coming from that we're finding in these riverbeds? And now finally, you got this great place and Newmont's there and Agnico's there and Kinross is here, right? So you're seeing the majors really come around to the Yukon.

And then I mean on Newcore, I mean, we're fortunate we can drill 365 days a year. But maybe another point I would just make and I think Brian's point about a well-developed area like Abitibi, the advantages there is access to projects and infrastructure, which is which is key. I mean, when you drive through that area, you're driving down the Trans-Canada Highway and you see one mine shaft after another and good access from that perspective. And similar for our project, we've got very good access. So we've got a paved road that runs right through the middle of it and then logging and gravel roads throughout the entire project, which from a cost perspective, is very helpful as well. So it is another thing to just consider when you're looking about, yes, the seasonality of drilling but also the access to these projects can make a huge difference in terms of the overall costs of drilling and exploration as a whole.

Obviously, some great insights into each of your stories, guys. [ Adrian Kenwell ] is an interesting question. I'd love to get your takes on. There appears to be -- this is -- there appears to be a trend for gold itself to be moving from the West to the East. But could it be advantageous to junior miners to follow this trend and get listed on stock exchanges elsewhere in the world where gold and gold-related investments are maybe more appreciated?

It's an interesting concept. I mean, moving a listing across East and I'm assuming he's not just talking about a European listing in terms of the magnitude of where gold is ending up. I'm not sure that going to an Asian listing as a junior based in Canada, I'm not sure how it would really benefit us that much. So ultimately, I guess what we have to ask ourselves is, over time, where does our capital come from? And if we see a capital shift in terms of who's funding the exploration, who's funding the development then there's probably benefits to having and shifting listings along that line. At present, the capital is still being sourced from the West and from the exchanges that we have here. And if you do have capital coming from the Eastern side, it would be corporate related in terms of some of our, say, Chinese gold companies looking to participate in vehicles or have partnerships there. So I think there's probably an angle there that's interesting to think about. Although I would say, at this stage, it's still premature to look to move that in that direction.

Yes. And I think just to add to that, if you look at most institutional funds or large funds, who are providing the bulk of the capital still for most companies to move their projects forward, for the most part, they're exchange agnostic. So whether you're listed on the TSX or the ASX or the LSE, most funds have global mandates where they're able to invest on any exchange out there, where there may be a slight difference. If you look in Australia, there's some rules around how much can be invested by the superannuation funds and some of that. So it's something we've looked around the edges out a little bit because our project in Africa. There's obviously lots of projects listed on the ASX that have assets in Africa. So they're very familiar with it. Similar with the AIM and the LSE in the U.K., obviously very familiar with African projects. So there could be some benefits around the edges for some of those. And maybe using an example, if people want to look it up, is look at Endeavour Mining. They went from a TSX listing, they've now got a listing on the FTSE. They're now FTSE 100, part of the big index over there and they've moved about 40%, 50% of their volume from Canada to the LSE. So -- but that's a $7 billion company and there's lots of different levers there. For a junior company, I think the jury is still out as to whether it makes sense. But for most institutional investors, again, they can invest anywhere. So it's less relevant would be my final view on it.

Yes. I would echo what Luke and Brian said in that, it really is a company-by-company specific decision to make. I can speak from experience. I won't mention the company but I sat on the Board of an ASX-listed company. And we were trying to access more funds on the North American side of the world and so we were advised to list into Canada and I thought, oh my god, it's going to be great. We'll list on the TSX or TSXV. And it really didn't make that big of an impact. Again, institutions can buy where they want, if you want to access a certain retail market or group, there is certain reasons for a company of a specific size to deal. But I think, in particular, the company really needs to look at who are the investors there, right? How do they act, right? Again, if you look at the ASX, there are companies that have billions and billions of shares outstanding. I remember our little company had 450 million shares outstanding and the accounts were like, why do you have so few shares outstanding, when we went marketing there. So knowing the jurisdiction of the investor that is, I think, is really important. And as Brian said, at this stage for junior mining companies it's not -- and it's expensive, too, right? You're -- all of a sudden, you're paying fees in different parts of the world. And so I think that it really needs to be a company-by-company decision.

Yes, I think the cost element is another key point that Paul just raised is, these things aren't inexpensive.

Fair enough. Appreciate that, guys. We've been going a lot over what people should be looking for, a lot of the positives, the upsides, the foundations and the compositions that people should be looking for when it comes to gold exploration company. There's a bit of the other side of that coin. In your experiences, what common mistakes do investors make when valuing gold exploration companies? And is there any advice you might have for avoiding pitfalls?

Yes, don't invest sometimes in what I invest in. I've -- someone who has turned capital destruction into a fine art. And it's been a very challenging gold environment. But I think we touched on a lot of the you should look for. You're absolutely right, Kim. So but you can just take the opposite side of that, right. If you're looking to invest and it looks like a great asset, it's got, it's in a jurisdiction, there's other big players around but have the -- the management team can be on the other side of the good equation, right? We have seen some players that aren't good stewards of capital and the like. So I think that will be one of the things to look at for sure. I mean, just because the stock is cheap, right, I think, when we look at, right -- if you want to look at EV per ounce or whatever are those, like you've seen in some of these stocks that are inexpensive and some of them that are expensive and you can't just go, oh well, that one is inexpensive, so I'm going to buy it. There's a number of reasons perhaps that gives that big valuation gap.

I think there's also -- I mean, there's a difference between investing in a company and speculating on a company. And investing in a company and renting a company for lack of a better expression. But I think recognizing whether you're buying a stock with a mid- to long-term view because you recognize the fundamentals of the project and the exploration upside that, that investment ultimately offers, versus a short-term investment that may be more focused on momentum because some companies out there mining the market and promoting over a short-term window and you see that high-grade results, hitting the market may have an immediate reaction in the stock price over a 1- or 2-month period. But recognizing and actually being able to sell a stock is sometimes the hardest part and whether you leave the last 20%, 30% on the table when that stock does turn the other way and the market recognizes that there isn't mid- to long-term fundamental value and that it inevitably will ever be a project that gets built or at least not in the next 20, 25 years. Then recognizing that and having that as part of your investment thesis that, okay, this is a short-term investment, I recognize it's a momentum trade and I'm going to play it for that versus a fundamental mid- to long-term view where you're going to take a core position. And maybe you trade around on that position on different events and news flow and everything else. But having the calendar reminders to say, hey, I viewed this as a 3-month trade and it's now June 30, time for me to sell and actually having the discipline to do that is a lot easier said than done.

I think the other piece of the aspect is these are more internal parameters at the company level but have an informed view of the external, the macro sentiment on the metal and the space and the trend which is going. So much of our success, whether we are, as management, successful at executing a business plan, have a gold deposit or exploration is driven also by pairing it with the right sentiment in the overall space. So having an informed view, whether it's a 1-month or 3-month, a 2-year -- a 5-year or 10-year view on the commodity is really important, I think, to success. And if it's not an alignment from an investor standpoint to say, does the fundamentals of the macro view of the metal align with what you see as the internal drivers of value within a given company. And true value, I think, is unlocked when both of those are aligned and pushing in the right direction.

No, that's great guys. And at the risk of again just being a little cyclical with this stuff but trying to drive to a point. What -- let's assume that this person is sitting in the room right now. They're new to the gold exploration sector, they're a potential investor. What -- out of everything that we've talked about today so far, the things to look for, the things to avoid, what's either the first or the most important in each of your opinions, things that they should go do either right now or when they hang up on this call.

Yes, to me, it's just, you start always with people. Go listen to somebody's talk, go listen to Luke or Paul or myself present the story and understand what drives our business and our strategy, go do your research on management, look at who they are, how they operate and what they've done. And I think as an investor, you need to form in a relationship with management and understand what they're about and how do they go about their business. So that would be the first place I would start, to go, go look at the people you're investing in and understand them and their track record.

Yes. And another point, when you have that -- if you can get access to that shareholder base, see who's behind it? Are they supported, are the long term, are there strategic partners behind that? Go find research reports from brokers on the companies, if they're available. I know a lot of juniors don't have a lot of research reports on them. But so I'm doing, you can gain access to that. And I think a retail investor, sometimes in a forum like this, they find that they won't have access to management of the company. And I know if it's Barrick or trying to get a hold of management teams at something like that but I find that junior company management teams are very open to responding to family office and small retail investors because it's the retail investor that will help move the stock in a lot of cases where institutions are buy and hold and long-term supportive. Don't be afraid to reach out to the IR people or the CEO itself.

That's great. And Luke?

Yes. No, I think those are all kind of the key things to look at is, obviously, the management team. I mean we've talked about jurisdiction. I mean -- there's lots of different reports out there. You can get to get a view on jurisdiction. As I mentioned, looking at who's operating in those countries is key. I mean insider buying would be another thing to look at. So is management actually putting money where their mouths are. Or are they just kind of out there talking about a company but not fully supporting it. So that would be another thing and all that is publicly available information or again, just reach out to the companies. I know myself, Paul, Brian, I'm sure we're all available. I know I am and the other guys would be. So we're always keen to engage with investors and prospective investors. So yes, just reaching out and having a conversation generally is the best thing.

Well, I mean, that dovetails nicely into this gentleman. We only have a handful of minutes left today. I want to thank you for coming on, of course. But I do want to also offer you the opportunity to get on your soapbox and talk about yourselves in a selfish way. So maybe 2 minutes each, just talking about what your case is and your company's story, why someone should be interested. Paul, maybe I'll start with you.

Sure. I'll go very quickly. I've done these before. Okay. So in the Yukon, there was a prospector named Shawn Ryan, who, as I mentioned, there was no real development or exploration for almost 100 years since the Goldrush. 20 years ago, he went and he thought that exact thing. Where does this gold come from that's sitting in these riverbeds that people are placer mining? And he developed the technology because in the Yukon, there's no -- very little outcrop, particularly where we are. And he figured it out, where the gold was in very quickly. You might remember, 2 companies, one, Underworld Resources, and that was the Golden Saddle deposit he discovered and then Kaminak, which was the Coffee deposit. Kaminak was sold eventually to Goldcorp and now Newmont owns that and they're actively at work on the Coffee deposit. And Golden Saddle is back within White Gold. It all came back together. There is just under 2 million ounces of the resource already there, grading 2 grams plus, open pit, with tremendous exploration upside around it. It's a 350,000 hectare property. It is absolutely massive. There's about 7 different exploration opportunities. And so for White Gold, what to watch for is the growth of that existing resource but also some exploration, particularly recently, if you go and look at the presentation on the website, you'll see that [indiscernible] again using Shawn's methodology. The first drill hole from surface was 50 meters at 3.5 grams. And that's exceptional grade if you're talking from surface grade. So I think my soapbox time is up but valuation is, again, like all of us juniors, it's big [ dots ] and the big guys and lots of opportunity -- and so I think White Gold is a great investment from this point on.

Thanks, Paul. Brian, what about you?

Yes. Well, GFG has been public for about 6 years. We're a Timmins [indiscernible] explorer. The exploration team and management formerly ran a company called Claude Resources. We built Claude through discovery, took it through a retransaction and then sold it into SSR in 2015 for a very good win for our shareholders. So we're a team that's found relevant deposits in shield type settings in Canada, historically. We've migrated to become the largest landholder in Timmins, outside of Newmont. We own 800 square kilometers of ground. And we're working on east of Timmins. There's 4 mills within 25 kilometers of us. We have extremely positive exploration results we published over the last 18 months since taking on the Montclerg property, which is the core focus of our work. We continue to be backed by very strong shareholder bases like the Alamos Group and the Lundin family and a number of other institutional holders. So at; GFG, we look at something called -- and to me, it's looking for a preserved endowment, belts that have yielded big deposits over the last exploration cycle. And the Abitibi is one of those 2 million-, 5 million-, 10 million-ounce deposits on all sides of us. And we feel there's still great potential to find the next large system like that in Timmins because we're working under cover. We're working in areas where there are [indiscernible] and exploration has preserved that endowment. So I'm really optimistic that GFG is onto something in Timmins. We have an extensive land base, very strong corporate relationships and a strong shareholder registry and balance sheet. So that would -- I would tell that to investors.

Great. Thanks, Brian. And Luke, over to you to wrap this up.

Yes. So Newcore Gold, we're advancing the Enchi Project in Ghana. It's a district scale exploration project fundamentally underpinned by a robust PEA that we put out in 2021. And so I guess just touching on a number and maybe bringing a number of the points that we've made on this call together. So from a valuation perspective, Newcore is trading at about $8, $9 per ounce in the ground. One of the key things for the ounces in the ground is about 740,000 ounces sit within the indicated category, another [ 972 ] or, call it, [ 970 ] within the inferred category. So when you look at those indicated ounces, obviously, those should trade at a premium to inferred ounces. When I look at some of the comp sheets out there, kind of $30 to $40 per ounce seems to be an average out there. So a nice rerate opportunity from where our ounces are trading today. Secondly, I mean, the company is fundamentally underpinned by a PEA that we put out in 2021 at an $1,850 gold price. You've got an after-tax NPV of $300 million, after-tax IRR of 54%. So you look at the company today, trading at about USD 20 million. We're trading at less than 0.1x the NPV of the project. Another thing that we touched on, so I guess third point, would be insider ownership and buying. So management and directors, we own 24% of the company. I bought more stock 2 weeks ago. Doug Forster, our Chairman, Blayne Johnson, Mal Karwowska, who's part of our executive team, we've all been buying stock in the last month. So we see these levels as extremely attractive entry point for investors. Majors in the country, I guess, would be the fourth point. As I highlighted earlier, we've got 3 of the top 10 largest gold producers in country. So that speaks to it being a Tier 1 jurisdiction with very quick permitting time lines in country. Strong backing, I guess, would be the fifth point, so institutional ownership. We've got 40% ownership. These are investors with long-term focus, deep pockets who are focused on the precious metals and mining sector and see the value that there is within our project. And then lastly, I guess, the sixth point would be capital market support. So Paul touched on juniors and sometimes it's tough to get research coverage. We're fortunate to currently have 4 Tier 1 investment banks out of Toronto who cover us from a research perspective. So Cormark, Haywood, Raymond James and Sprott. So if anybody has access to that, then I would highly encourage you to go read some of those reports as well. So district scale exploration in Ghana that's fundamentally underpinned by a robust economic study and a management team who's been buying the stock.

All right. Well, gentlemen, that all sounds great, and I want to thank you again for coming on today. We really appreciate it. I hope the audience does. I certainly do. Of course, I also want to extend my thanks to you guys for joining us. But that is all for today. So I hope everyone here has a good one. Cheers.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks, Kim.