Nexi S.p.A. (NEXI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning. This is the Chorus Call conference operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the Nexi First Half 2025 Financial Results Presentation. [Operator Instructions] At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Paolo Bertoluzzo, CEO of Nexi. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you. Good morning, good morning to everyone, and welcome to our results call for the first half of 2025. As usual, I'm here with Bernardo Mingrone, our Deputy GM and CFO; Ms. Stefania Mantegazza, who leads our Investor Relations activities and a number of colleagues that may provide help in case we want to deep dive on very specific topics. Today, I will start by providing a short overview of the progress in the first half and the key messages associated to it. We'll then hand over to Bernardo for results, and I'll come back for conclusions and most importantly, together with Bernardo to answer to your questions. Let me start on Page 3 of the document with a summary of our key messages. First of all, we continue to deliver profitable growth, and I would add strong cash generation. The first half of the year, revenues were up 3.4%, with Merchant Solutions up close to 4%, but actually growth across all business units and growth across all regions as well. In the first half, EBITDA did grow at 5.2% with an 88 basis point EBITDA margin expansion, thanks to a combination, obviously, of top line growth, continued operating leverage and strong cost control with OpEx growing in the first half below 2%. And last but not least, and most importantly, I would say, given the focus -- strong focus we have on it, in the first half of the year, we'll be generating excess cash for more than EUR 400 million, EUR 407 million more specifically, which is well on track to deliver the committed more than EUR 800 million across the full year. Second set of messages, we continue to shape Nexi for future profitable growth and reacceleration as we look into the coming years. First of all, we continue to progress on our strategy on integrated payments and software payment integration. As we discussed in the past, our strategy is fully focused on partnering with ISV with different partnering model. The first half of the year, we did continue to progress in the development of this partnership. We have been adding another 30, 40 partnerships across the region, and we have a fairly good coverage of partners across different regions, in particular, I would focus on the Nordics, where we have a very strong coverage and the Nordics are particularly relevant for this conversation because that's the region where we see integrated payments having higher relevance versus the rest of our geographies. Second key message, we continue to have a strong performance in the Italian complementary channels for SMEs. As a reminder, SMEs is our highest priority. In general, in the first half of the year, complementary channels were representing 26% of the new sales, up from 20% last year. And the field sales channel, which is the most recent one, we've been developing the triple the acquisition volumes in the first half in the period. Third key message, we continue to see strong progress on e-commerce with good customer base growth, about 5% customer growth across the various geographies. This is very important to us as e-commerce is one of the key pillar of our growth and future acceleration. And last but not least, and this is something that is very important, especially given the dynamics that we've been observing over the last 2 or 3 years. We continue to strengthen the relationship with Italian banks that are incredibly important for the Italian region. Here, we are mentioning 2 facts that are really important to give you a clear sense of resilience of our position in Italy. Over the last 12 months, we've been renewing 100% on the contracts that were potentially expiring. And on top of it, we have already renewed the major contracts that we -- that could potentially expire in 2025. Let me mention one. We normally, as you know, don't call out specific customer names or contract relationships. But this one was also into a very specific press release. We've been renewing our relationship with Credit Agricole in Italy, a very successful relationship with Credit Agricole in Italy for both merchant services and Issuing Solutions from now up until 2029. Third key message. We continue to create value for our shareholders. As a reminder, across '24 and '25, we are returning to our shareholders EUR 1.1 billion as a combination of dividends and buybacks. And we are doing this while having become investment-grade issuer at the same time. In particular, in 2025, we're returning EUR 600 million, up 20% versus the previous year. We have paid our very first dividend of EUR 300 million in May. And again, as a reminder, we have committed to increase this dividend over time, and we have the share buyback program of a similar size that is ongoing as we speak. Last but not least, in the last quarter, we have also issued our first issuance actually on -- as an investment-grade player. We have issued EUR 750 million of senior unsecured notes, 6 years with 150 basis point spread, which we believe is quite telling about the outlook of the business. Overall, in this environment, we are confirming our guidance for the full year. Revenues growing low to mid-single digit. EBITDA margin expanding at least 50 basis points. And last but not least, excess cash of at least EUR 800 million, starting from the EUR 407 million that we have delivered in the first half of the year. Let me now hand over to Bernardo.

Thanks, Paolo. Good morning, everyone. So results for the quarter and first half, I would say, show a continued and steady progress towards delivering our full year guidance, as Paolo has just finished with his section. If we look at Slide 5, we have the breakdown of revenues in the quarter and for the first half. As you see for the first half, we grow 3.4%, I'd say, in the middle of our low to mid-single-digit top line growth range. In the quarter, it was a slight deceleration, 3%, but broadly speaking, in line with pretty steady and in line with the first quarter of the year. EBITDA margin continues to grow 34 basis points in the quarter. We are at 88 basis points in the year. Again, our guidance was to do more than 50 basis points for the full year. So I'd say that we are on track for that as well with EBITDA growing 3.7% in the quarter, and that is just north of 5% for the first half. So I'd say on a consolidated level for the group, a good second quarter in line with our expectations. Moving on to Merchant Solutions. Here, we highlight, as usual, the strong contribution to our top line growth coming from international schemes, which also benefits to some extent from a migration across the regions in which we operate from national schemes where they're present to international schemes. As expected, and we have talked about this a number of times, our underlying volumes and revenues are growing and accelerating more than -- to growing more than last year. However, we have the effect that we are working through this year of banks that we had lost a few years ago in terms of distribution capacity. This weighs approximately 2 percentage points, I would say, in terms of the value of managed transactions. Notwithstanding that, it highlighted the resilience and the strength of our business and its ability to grow in the quarter by 3.4% in Merchant Solutions and close to 4% if you look at it in the first half. We continue to accelerate our growth in SMEs, our core segment. DACH and Poland, we call out as e-commerce as core engines of growth for our business, and we continue to grow our business, thanks to upselling of value-added services and products to our customer base. We move on to Issuing Solutions. Some of the similar themes that we highlighted for Merchant Solutions apply here as well. We have a continued growth of international scheme volumes outpacing those with national schemes as we move more and more towards those. We have continued success in upselling our international debit product in Italy, which is a key driver for growth in that region and upselling and cross-selling of value-added services across geographies. Again, growth in the second quarter, I would say, mimics that of the first quarter, broadly in line with the full first half number of 2.9%. Nothing really compared to other years, project work, these kind of things, pretty steady phasing throughout the first half of the year. So nothing really to call out also compared to last year. Digital Banking Solutions, I would say 2.5% growth in the quarter is quite good given the mainly infrastructural nature of this business, even though in those areas where we benefit from volume growth, we are taking advantage of it, for instance, on Instant Payments and our partnership with EBA Clearing. We continue in this business unit as well to increase the value of our client base by cross-selling and upselling value-added services. For instance, here, we call out on the Instant Payments front, how we have rolled out verification of pay and anti-fraud features on the Instant Payment product. If we look across geographies on Slide 9, I would say pretty homogeneous set of numbers for the first and second quarter across geographies, Italy growing 4%, which is supported again, as we mentioned in both issuing and acquiring by international scheme volume growth. We have, obviously, in Italy, most of that drag I was referring to in terms of customers which we lost a few years ago and are now starting to move away from us. Nordics, I would say, good revenue performance with 3% top line growth, which is supported in particular, I'd say, by e-commerce growth and the upselling of value-added products and services. In the DACH region, we have strong growth in revenues in Merchant Solutions in Germany. We called that out at 8% top line. And then we have one issuing processing client, which has been migrating away from us for the last 3 years or so, which is hitting the top line, which otherwise would be showing the strong growth we're experiencing in Germany in Merchant Solutions. On the CSEE front, we will be lapping the -- say, the kicking in of the discount, which was embedded in a contract we acquired a number of years ago in Greece. Other than that, I would say there's solid performance, in particular, in Poland, which is one, together with Germany, one of the key engines of growth for the group. If we look at the costs and the cost evolution, another, I'd say, good quarter of cost control and commitment to contain growth in costs, 2.3%, 1.6% in the first half. If you look at the nature or if we split the cost by nature between HR cost and non-HR costs, we have the year-on-year comp effect, let's say, on personnel costs last year, most of the people that left around about this time. So we have a year-on-year comparison benefit in the first half in absolute terms also, obviously. This will unwind in the second quarter -- sorry, in the second half. And at the same time, we have some front-loading of project work in in the non-HR costs, which actually, again, will unwind in the second half. So broadly speaking, I guess the key takeaway for me is we manage our cost base as we do with our guidance on a full year basis, and we're highly confident that with regards to our overall targets, these are highly achievable, and we remain committed to a second half cost growth, which is pretty much in line with what we saw in the first half. So a strong reduction compared to last year. On the CapEx front, again, we need to speak about seasonality. EUR 180 million is just around 10% of revenues in terms of CapEx intensity. We have a sharp reduction compared to first half of last year. In the second half of last year, we had approximately EUR 250 million, if I remember correctly, of CapEx. So there is seasonality as you would expect in the second half of the year. We'll expect to have something similar this year, although we remain committed to reducing our CapEx intensity and in absolute terms year-on-year as we have discussed in the past. So there is some phasing effect. And I would say that CapEx intensity will also come down as well as the absolute value of CapEx compared to 2024. Slide 12 about reduction of transformation and integration costs. On the far left, you see how we continue to reduce the integration and transformation costs associated with 2 very large mergers we completed at the end of 2021 or during 2021. These come down to just under EUR 35 million. The overall absolute number is also coming down year-on-year. Clearly, last year, we had a large one-off coming from the downsizing plan from the severance cost, which was EUR 165 million. But even if you normalize for that, we expect a full year reduction in this line item, also helping to compound the EBITDA growth and generate incremental cash year-on-year, which we see on Slide 13. On Slide 13, we have the excess cash generation, so our measure of free cash flow essentially. We have a target of at least EUR 800 million for the year. We are at EUR 407 million. There are seasonality effects here. However, I would expect, if we feel -- Paolo and I feel very comfortable with regards to our target of exceeding EUR 800 million at this stage of the year and given where we are in the first half. Finally, before I hand the floor back to Paolo, we look at our indebtedness. We -- I think it's important to say that we are at 2.7x EBITDA, having already returned EUR 1 billion. This was at the 30th of June. Today, we're closer to EUR 1.1 billion to investors in the form of share buybacks and our first dividend as a listed company, which was paid in May. Had we not done this, clearly, our deleveraging path would have been much steeper. We'd be at 2.2x. We're investment-grade, absolutely committed to maintaining this rating, hopefully improving it. And this helps us manage this debt stack very proactively. We issued a EUR 750 million note last May, which was successfully priced as Paolo suggesting, the very low end of the pricing range, consistent with a higher rating than ours. And we managed to contain our cost of debt to 2.4%, which is clearly also something which helps us manage this cash flow generation. So that said, let me hand the floor back to Paolo for his closing remarks.

Thank you, Bernardo. So you've seen a fairly, I would say, straightforward set of results. On the back of all of that, we are confirming our guidance for the year. We expect revenue to grow low to mid-single digit for the full year. As a reminder, we've been including into this guidance 2 aspects, an underlying growth acceleration versus last year that was about 5%. However, undermined by a combination of some merchant services effect in Italy on the back of banks' M&A and other contract effects coming from 2, 3 years ago. And at the same time, instead of smaller contract renegotiations or terminations across the other geographies for IS. At the same time, we continue to expand margin by at least 50 basis points, thanks to strong cost control or continued strong cost control that Bernardo has just mentioned again. And overall, for the year, we expect to grow cash by at least EUR 800 million for the full year. Let me just recap the 3 very key messages, continued delivery of profitable growth. Again, let me stress the excess cash generation continuous acceleration. Second point, shaping Nexi for future profitable growth and reacceleration. Let me stress again the strengthening of the relationships with the Italian banks with a very successful season of renewals and extensions, including the key contracts that were potentially expiring into 2025. And last but not least, returning value back to shareholders with EUR 1.1 billion returned across '25 and '26. Let me pause there and open to your questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Justin Forsythe from UBS.

So a few here, if I may. First, a couple of questions on Italy. So if I look at retail sales, it looks like for the quarter, it hit maybe about 1% year-over-year in Italy per our math, suggesting there's still a degree of cash-to-card conversion on that. And excluding M&A, it seems like maybe you were close to in line with industry growth. But maybe you could just parse through a few of those impacts and tie in the Italy growth and maybe size a bit the M&A impact as we can see the volume -- the overall transaction volume growing, I mean, around flattish for the quarter? Secondarily, you mentioned a little bit about new sales channels in Italy. How material is this getting the direct go-to-market with SMEs? And maybe you could talk about the margin associated with those, meaning clearly, you have an incremental cost associated with paying salespeople. Should we still expect this to be EBITDA margin neutral as it becomes more material? Lastly, I wanted to ask, there's been some news around the Dankort scheme, which you operate in Denmark and the share of transactions going down quite meaningfully. I think from [ 80 to 40 ] was one article that I saw. Maybe you could just highlight a little bit around what drove that? And maybe remind us how you monetize that scheme ownership and understand that functionality is supposed to be improving. It sounds like fees are increasing as well. Should we expect that to hit P&L directly in a positive fashion going forward?

Let me try to take the 3 of them. On retail sales in Italy, if you strip out the effect of the couple of, if you like, banks that we've lost 2 years back and are now migrating actually the market, we are growing -- we will be growing nicely on volumes and pretty much in line with the market. So I think that the cash-to-card conversion in Italy remains fairly healthy. And we see it even more when you look at e-com, where the reality is that the vast majority of the customers remains with us, even if not the bank would like to migrate them and remain with us for obvious reasons of stronger products, stronger support and all of that. So I would say the net of these couple of banks' effects, the underlying volume trends remain pretty robust. Clearly, they may be affected by macro, but the reality is that cash-to-card conversion is the main driver here and remains pretty strong. On SME direct sales and so on and so forth, again, as a reminder, we did start adding complementary channels to our bank channels that remain the most strategic and the most relevant for us back 4 years ago, 5 years ago with a strong focus on digital channels and retail channels. And more recently, we have started to add obviously the ISV channel as well so the software partners, although that remains very, very low as a relevance in Italy, not just for us, for the entire market. And the real new news is when 1.5 years ago, more or less, we did add more direct sales on the ground as a combination of our own salespeople and sales agents, which is a normal practice in Italy to reach out to SMEs. This is the one that has been driving the acceleration of our performance. They normally target larger SMEs, but also midsized SMEs. We normally go with our own people on the mid segment on the larger and more valuable ones. We go with third-party agents on the smaller ones here. As far as the economics are -- sorry, and overall, what is nice is that this has been more than rebalancing the potential lack of distribution from the couple of banks that have been changing a couple of years ago. In terms of margins, it's always a little bit difficult to say, but never forget that, yes, it's true that we need to either have OpEx associated to our people or to pay a new channel. But never forget the fact that as the vast majority of these customers are coming from customers that we had with banks, we were not, in any case, fully retaining the full revenues, the full price as we had to leave to the banks a good share of that because it was more of a wholesale relationship with the bank. So for the moment, these are kind of more neutral effect. Last but not least, as Dankort is concerned, as you know, the local institutions were obliged to go on the topic of Dankort in opening Dankort to multi-acquiring approach because that to make it consistent with European regulation, there has been a very constructive and long conversation across the ecosystem with merchants involved, banks involved, ourselves and other players involved. We believe that the outcome is ultimately a balanced outcome where on the one side, there will be, over time, more acquirers into the market. Over time means that I think this is going to be applicable towards end of next year, I think, or 2 years from now through, I think, 2 years from now. So there is a lot of time before it happens. But the reality is that we're also gaining much more flexibility and economic support on the running of the schemes, which is considered locally a pretty relevant national asset and a key asset from the merchants that support it heavily. I think that all in is this can be a positive evolution. As far as the volume dynamics that you observe with national schemes, not just Dankort losing value to international schemes, I just remind the fact that a little bit across all geographies, including Denmark, despite the fact that we are owners of the scheme, the migration is normally net positive for us. So in general, we are obviously working on this evolution in Denmark, but we see it as neutral to positive.

The next question is from Josh Levin, Autonomous Research.

Two questions for me. One of your largest competitors has been in the news, not in a good way and is struggling to turn around the company. Has that created any opportunities or might it create any opportunities for Nexi? And then, Paolo, you had mentioned the acceleration in growth. You've mentioned that before. Could you maybe give us a sense of how much roughly we might be talking about and over what time frame?

Joshua, thank you for your questions. On the first one, in general, we try to capture all possible opportunities offered by the market, including ones offered by competitors as well. In general, we see a good traction in conversations with let's say, counterparts that are longer-term focused and really focused on resilience, stability and again, longer-term outlook of growth. And this normally has to do with banking partners, ISV partners, I would say, very large corporates, but also people and talent. So this is clearly an area of focus for us. As far as -- while actually, when you talk about smaller SMEs or individual customers, they're really not focused on these type of things that they are very much distracted by their own business as it is normal. Talking about acceleration here, I really want to be very, very clear and consistent with everything we have said in the past. As you can easily understand from our first half performance being ahead -- materially ahead of our full year guidance, in the second half of the year, we expect to see a softer top line growth and as a consequence, also EBITDA margin expansion. So we're just confirming our guidance. And this has to do with the fact that while we continue to see underlying growth and a little bit of reacceleration as well in the second half of the year, we will see also a more material impact of these bank migrations that combine themselves or, if you like, contract renegotiations, and this is absolutely in line with what we said in the past. As we look forward, we have been starting, obviously, our work on the budget for next year and also a refresh on our longer-term plan. And for now, what we see is a gradual reacceleration into '26 and most importantly, the coming years as a combination of continued underlying growth acceleration driven by mostly, I would say, our growth engine and the resilience of our very large cash engines starting from Italy. But at the same time, a softening of the impact of these bank contract renegotiations or in a couple of cases, losses. So that's the dynamic that we expect to see.

The next question is from Gregoire Hermann of Barclays.

A few questions from me, please. The first one, given that we are now more than halfway into 2025, can you comment on 2026? And based on the contracts that you have renewed and what you still have in the pipeline, how confident are you that we are going to see the growth acceleration that consensus expects? And then maybe just trying to understand the phasing for the rest of the year. I think you guided initially as a relatively strong Q1 and then Q2 to Q4 being slightly lower than Q1 and especially due to this Italy M&A impact that you called out. But I think you already mentioned some M&A impact in Italy in Q4 last year. So why shouldn't we expect sort of a pickup in Q4 as this effect should be partly over? And then last question, on your growth and especially in Italy. Can you please impact what's the growth attributable to integrated software payments offering versus point-of-sales terminal, please?

So 2026, we'll talk about it, obviously, in March when we talk about guidance for the new year. But we see potential for reacceleration, I think as we've commented in the past, and we confirm it. Again, the work is ongoing. We just started giving to the rest of the team on the targets for next year. But the dynamic that we expect to see is the one that I just mentioned in my previous answer, which is on the one side, a further acceleration of the -- our ultimately growth engines, namely, I would say, the DACH region, Germany, in particular, and e-commerce. At the same time, a continued resilient performance of Italy and in parallel, a softening of the impact of these bank contracts that were lost or renegotiated with discounts over the last, I would say, ultimately in '23 and '24. So that's the dynamic that we see. So at the moment, that's what we expect. In the second half of 2025, I don't remember exactly what was the effect of last quarter -- of last year, last quarter, but I think it was pretty small. The fact that instead will be impacting in the second half is actually the peaking, I would say, of the effect of basically the known bank's losses, I would say, in Italy and the kicking in of some of the discounts that we have to give in the renegotiation on IS contracts from the past. So it's more of a phasing effect of the different dynamics rather than anything else. And at the moment, we don't see any new news from where we were when we provided the guidance for the year back in March. Last question was, if I understand it properly, Gregoire, on the impact of the ISV channel, in Italy, to be honest with you, as we've said many, many times, ISVs are very marginal in Italy at the moment in terms of dynamics here. Nevertheless, we've been rushing to cover as many as possible, and we have a nice set of pretty strong and strategic partnership. And here, we are preparing for the future more than really in terms of proposition integration, in terms of support, in terms of business model definition, while at the moment, there is still limited commercial activity because there is still limited demand from the market. At the same time, we work a lot with all possible type of partners that are more, if you like, distributors rather than real software providers that are integrating software and payments. And we have a number of examples of local situations being very nice and quite effective, but I can't really define them as through ISVs. But again, we really focus on this also in Italy because over time, this will become more relevant, and we want to be fully ready for it.

The next question is from Sebastien Sztabowicz of Kepler Cheuvreux.

Yes. Could you please provide some color on volume trends since the start of the quarter? Have you seen any specific change in market dynamics over the past few weeks given the uncertain macro conditions, your European peers, Worldline was blaming some tougher market condition in June. Just curious about the dynamics since the start of the quarter. And the second one, you have renewed a lot of contracts recently. I just wanted to know, do you have any big contract renewal that is coming for 2026? Just to understand a little bit the downside risk for 2026.

Listen, on volume trends, nothing remarkable to be mentioned at this stage. July is just finishing, and we still need to fully understand the numbers. Never forget that for our region, for our geographical footprint, August is the real month that basically shapes somehow the summer because that's really the holiday month. We continue to see pretty resilient strong trends on the typical, if you like, grocery channels and in general, the nondiscretionary. I think on discretionary spending, it really depends a little bit on the various geographies, maybe a bit softer than nondiscretionary spending. However, I never forget that the trends are affected by a number of things, weekends, weather. For now, we feel comfortable with the guidance we have given, and there is nothing really major to be pointed out in terms of dynamics. Again, never forget that instead, you will continue to see for next at least some volume slowdown in Italy that is driven by the bank contracts that we've been discussing a few times already in this call that were known budgeted and embedded already into the guidance. As far as big contracts into next year, we do not have major ones, but this does not mean that we don't decide together with customers to anticipate certain renewals simply to make sure that we stand in advance the future contracts as well. It really depends. But for now, no, we don't see anything major. Never forget that when you have hundreds of bank relationships, some of them are more material, some of them are less material, and therefore, you renegotiate basically every day. But at the moment, we don't see in the coming months and quarters, anything major coming.

If I may jump in, Sebastien, I think, Paolo, you mentioned in your remarks, and I was just thinking back to Joshua's question about the Worldline situation or our unnamed competitor, I think it was, has it helped us or not? I think we -- one of our key partners in Italy, French Bank announced recently that we had renewed and extended our partnership with them here. And maybe we were helped by the situation. But probably, it's got to do with our -- the value of our relationship with them, the long-standing and the quality of the relationship there. But in general, I mean, I think that would be the one that we discussed in the past is one of the renewals that we were interested in, and that's happened.

The next question is from Mohammed Moawalla from Goldman Sachs.

Two for me. Firstly, just on that last point, you talked about sort of Credit Agricole. When you look at sort of some of your competitors like Worldline, as you look outside of your kind of key home markets, and I'm talking now specifically kind of France, maybe Benelux, what's the kind of opportunities you see across both the Merchant portfolio and the sort of Issuing side to sort of potentially kind of take on more volume and more contracts over the medium term? And secondly, just as we think of the Issuing business of cards and digital payments, I know you've got some headwinds right now. But sort of over the medium term, is this sort of a GDP business net of sort of price concessions? Or do you believe you can sort of outperform that? And if that is the case, what would be needed to kind of grow above GDP there?

Listen, on your first point, honestly, we stick to our strategy and our focus a little bit also independently from the shorter-term dynamics that competitors may have and hopefully, they will also recover from. The -- specifically -- and therefore, we stay focused on our geographies, and we stay focused on our also priorities within those geographies. From this point of view, Benelux and France have never been key priorities for us given the portfolio we currently have with a number of chances to enter Benelux whenever we never decided to capture them for a number of reasons. And similarly, France is a market where it is not obvious know-how to have value-creating entrants. Never forget that if you're talking about merchant services, it's very difficult to roll out greenfield in a very profitable way at scale, okay? I think given our scale and the many very important priorities for growth that we have, we really try to stay focused there. So at the moment, we are not putting a new or specific focus in those 2 geographies. Obviously, if relevant and highly value-creating opportunities will come, we'll consider them, but we have not changed our strategy because of the current situation with competition. On the Issuing business, we have a bit more of a more optimistic view than just GDP. And obviously, it depends on -- phasing depends on a number of things. But we see this business, as you correctly mentioned on the one side, being affected by contract renegotiations and all of that. At the same time, we see it also as a resilient business because banks tend to be quite loyal here. Migrations are not an obvious things in this space. And actually, we see volumes growth affecting also this space, positive volume growth affecting also this space. And most importantly, we see the opportunity in the coming years to export more and more the Italian model that is the licensing model, we call it, where it's a Nexi product being more distributed by banks rather than Nexi being a technology provider to banks only, and that's a much richer product with a lot of higher upside. Therefore, we see this more as a GDP plus type of business, not as, I think, with the same potential of merchant services for a number of reasons, but not necessarily a low single-digit only business. And again, sorry, as a reminder, you also have some effects from one specific bank loss back 2 years ago that will touch us over the next couple of years. But that's, again, underlying net of this very specific effect, we see this as a GDP plus business.