Norfolk Southern Corporation ($NSC)

Okay. So we're going to get started here in the afternoon track here for transports. Again, Brian Ossenbeck covering the space for JPMorgan. Really excited to have Norfolk Southern here. Mark George, President, CEO; Jason Zampi, CFO; Luke Nichols in the audience. Clearly there's a lot to get to in terms of just the structure of the industry and how it might change over time. Clearly, there's a transaction in the market. But I wanted to start a little bit more fundamental. You guys are still out there running the business every day. Clearly, tough winter, dwell times and parts of the network look a little bit elevated. So maybe we can just talk about how the network is running in the first quarter and just go from there. And thanks again for being here.

Thanks, Brian. We're happy to be here with you. And I'm glad to be talking about fundamentals because we do spend most of our time running the business. Even though it might seem to many of you that we're spending all of our time trying to get this merger across the finish line. We started the year actually really strong in January. Volumes we're pretty happy with coming out of the gate. But when the winter hit us that, I guess, was the fourth week in January, that final week in January. It hit us hard in the East. Unlike the West, we got pummeled all over the network with three successive storms and deep freezes on top of it. So yes, it definitely had an impact on our fluidity. It did create some increased dwell times and it reduced our train speeds and reduced our service metrics. But just like we saw last winter, we came bouncing right back at the end of these storms. So we're in a good spot right now. I'm really happy with the resiliency that we're demonstrating on the network. I will tell you that in February that the storm impact and the impact on our network definitely hurt us from a volume perspective. So we were running ahead of schedule first few weeks. We went deep into a hole in February compared to our expectations. But I would tell you here in March, we've been coming back ahead of our expectations in March. So we're kind of -- we're feeling pretty good about coming out of the stores.

And the only other thing I'd add about the storms, if you think about last year, we talked about like 17 or 18 storms that hit us in the first quarter, but those were like much more regional or localized. These two storms that hit us really to last handful of days in January, first handful of days in February were really, really widespread. So very, very impactful to the network. But even saying that, I think we bounced back pretty quickly.

Yes, you don't see that much ice in Atlanta or Memphis or any place like that. So we've heard from others, some of the rough cost ideas of how much this might impact the network on a year-over-year basis. I don't know if you're at a point where you can share any of that? Or is it material to how you experienced versus last year?

Yes. I mean there's definitely incremental costs, cleanup costs. You have a lot of contractors out there, clearing trees and helping us bring the network back. So there's incremental cost for sure, probably $0.04 or $0.05 of cost when you say.

Mark, you mentioned the volumes were looking pretty good, and they were definitely coming in at a pretty good pace. Of course, weather had something to do with that, but you don't necessarily have an official like market view or target for the year, but like just where are things better than what you expected in terms of volume? And why was that? Was it service? Was it conversion?

You were talking about the first quarter?

Yes, the first quarter in general, as they progress into...

Like we said, it's been lumpy, strong January, weak February from the storms. March has come back well. I would just tell you the overall markets, and Jason, you're going to jump in here, but utility coal, it's been good. It's been real good. Last year, it was good. Data centers help. Nat gas prices, we'll see where those kind of go to. We can talk about the war later. I'm sure you're going to ask about that. We're feeling pretty good about that. And honestly, I think our Industrial Products business has been -- we had a really good year last year with Industrial Products. We saw some good volume growth, and that's continued strong here in the first quarter as well. And intermodal has been weak. We all know what's going on in the domestic side with regard to some of the share shift that's happened on the domestic side. But international, which is kind of a proxy for imports, has been really soft. Everybody is seeing that all imports. What do you think, Jason?

Yes. I mean just to put a little finer point on. I think intermodal quarter-to-date, we're down about 6% volume-wise versus where we were like Mark said, truly, that's the international story that kind of everybody is feeling there. And then coal, I think, that's been not only a good year-over-year story, but just versus expectation. I mean utility coal volume has really been strong. The only other piece I'd add to what Mark said, in addition to electricity demand and the high natural gas prices, you also have probably a little bit more favorable regulatory environment. We don't really see any closures on our system and any major closures in the near future. So obviously, new coal-fired plants coming on, but I think you're seeing some delays in closures of existing plants.

Right. Were some of those expected to happen this year as you entered? Or they just kind of in perpetual restatement or...

Just expansion, just continue to move out.

Right.

I think you heard a lot of those announcements last year where they were kind of a boarding plans to decommission coal power plants. So that's good. That's held. And you're hearing more chatter when I talk to some of the utilities, more chatter about recommissioning some plants that may have been decommissioned. So again, the war may also accelerate some of that depending on how long that lasts.

For sure, we'll get to that in a second, but coal being a bright spot, you want to focus a little bit more on so you don't get that opportunity. Is there anything on the Warrior Coal partnership you guys shared a little bit about last quarter, like how that's ramping up? What brought that about? And as we think about the competitive losses. You've also mentioned like, are there other ones that we should think about in terms of wins? Because I think CMA CGM was a new service launch. So like what else is in the hopper in terms of additional opportunities that you're already working on or potentially could be seeing pretty soon?

So Warrior, we had been working on for about 2 years, working very close with them to develop a solution for the new mine that they were looking to open where they had alternatives, including barge, which was fairly convenient for them. But we came and worked with them very closely on a rail solution that would have involved -- that involves them investing a fair amount of money for conveyor system and us investing a fair amount of money to create more capacity on our line to go down to the Port of Mobile. So we both invested that money. And now we're looking -- we've already started the service and it's going well. It's extremely high-quality coal, met coal, extremely high quality. And we think this can ramp up to, what, 6 million tons a year. So we're really excited about it. And again, it's a really good partnership that we have with them, and we're really proud of the investment. Like I said, this has been going on this discussion on developing a solution for over 2 years. Yes, you cited CMA another, again, what kind of solution can we create and deliver for you? So we've done that. It's kind of a truck-like solution that we've created there. We're working on others. We've had other big wins in auto, and I'm not going to get into details of some of the other negotiations we're deep into, but the team is working really hard. And I think what I want to do is maybe take a second and explain One of the things about a year ago, I talked to our Commercial Officer, Ed Elkins, about the fact that this industry, maybe we need to think a little bit different about our commercial organization and our structure and the way we do things. And I'd like to see us maybe take a look at more specialized sales folks that are on specific incentive plans like you see in most other industries, and separate that functionality from other marketing folks. So today, people's jobs or in the past, I should say people's jobs were kind of co-mingled doing a little bit of sales, a little bit of relationships, a little bit of pricing, a little bit of marketing. Let's take a look at a more bifurcated structure with specialists with a sales organization that has incentives that can help drive more top line growth. So for the past year, we've been building this out, and we are now live with a new structure. And we feel pretty excited about where this could lead in terms of propelling us at a faster rate than we've seen in the past. But we can't just keep doing the same things we've been doing and expecting a better outcome. We've got to try something different. And hats off to Ed for embracing that and driving that. And his VPs, they've done a spectacular job leading the organization through that change. A lot of people, hundreds of people's job descriptions were changed. Their compensation structure has changed. And I feel like we're going to start seeing the benefits of that soon.

You mentioned two wins, one against truck and one against barge like, yes, usually, that doesn't really happen. So are these service driven? I mean, the relationship you mentioned as well. But...

Oh, yes, they're also service-driven because let's face it. We're in a position of strength, which is another reason why this was a good time to do the merger. But it's also a good time that we're able to demonstrate to our customers. Look, you can trust us. Look at how reliable we are, look at how resilient we were after the hurricanes, after the winter storms of 2025 and they're seeing it. So now they trust us. We have a strong operations team and strong disciplines. And honestly, we're bringing the operations folks into these discussions with our customers. They're vested in it. So our Chief Operating Officer, our Head of Transportation, they're in the meetings with the customers and they're vested in it. So we're approaching things a little bit different now as more of a team.

What we did allude to the conflict in the Gulf. And clearly, there's a couple of different factors that would play out across the rail networks. Maybe in the short term, like what's -- how do you how you size up the impact on fuel because obviously, it went up quite a bit, we're now chasing it with the reset? And then secondly, aside from the obvious potential for impacting consumer demand and sentiment like are there any end markets that are particularly exposed? I don't know, maybe there's some NGLs that can be exported somewhere else like frac sand maybe picks up, like not looking necessarily for a silver lining, but just like the broader impact higher energy prices for longer?

Yes. So look, I think it's been 2 weeks pretty much of volatility in oil that we've seen. And we still got another 2 weeks before we close out the quarter, right? So we know that fuel is already going to have a very significant impact on our expense. And when you think about it, we burn about 1 million gallons of diesel fuel a day. That's 30 million gallons a month. So you can kind of do your own math. If the rates go up by $1 from where our expectations were, that's a $30 million headwind. If it goes up by $0.50, it's a $15 million for the quarter because of the 1 month in March. Now we do have -- obviously, it's a pass-through mechanism with our surcharge program. And there, you have basically a couple of weeks lag before you'll start to see the surcharge take effect in intermodal and a couple of months lag before you start to see it take effect in Industrial Products. So really, you'll start to see the surcharge flow through here in the second quarter and with full effect in the third quarter. But we don't know what the curve is going to be on oil prices. Just in these 2 weeks, it's been pretty spiky and volatile. But what would you gauge the range for -- if you were going to guide, Jason?

Yes. I'd say on the expense side, it's where I think, Mark, your frame of reference here is great rule of thumb, kind of probably $20 million to $30 million of expense headwind in the first quarter here. And then hopefully, that -- as Mark said, that kind of gets covered with the fuel surcharge revenue that picks up in the second quarter.

And then so as I think about it over the course of the year, we don't know how long this lasts. -- okay? But let's just say it lasts for a while. And the Straight of Hormuz kind of stays in fluid. Natural gas becomes a little bit of a of an issue coming out of there, what does that do to U.S. nat gas prices? You start seeing more export there. We move nat gas. But on top of it, when nat gas is high, it's pretty good usually for coal. In our coal franchise, our utility franchise. You'll see the utilities burn more coal. So that's not a bad thing for the business volumes. On top of that, I mean, fuel stays high that puts a little pressure on trucking doesn't it? And so on the intermodal space, it starts to maybe put pressure on truck rates, which is a pretty good thing for us. We've been pretty depressed for a while. We'd love to see some evacuation of capacity in trucking, maybe this helps accelerate the evacuation of some of the smaller players who can't sustain the fuel spikes. So we think that's another potential good news item for us on the intermodal side. So you play this out, you can see a lot of good. But depending on how long this lasts, obviously, high fuel prices can have an adverse impact on the consumer. Ultimately, it will lead to inflation. We don't know what it does to demand. And if there's demand destruction that ultimately impacts an offsetting counterweight to our volumes in the future. So you get all those things you kind of got to put in the mix master.

Okay, would you add anything?

Yes, I was just going to say, I mean, you kind of saw that exact same experience back in 2022 with the Russian-Ukraine conflict, that 6-month spike in prices that really started to impact the economy. But obviously, a lot of other things going on at that time that are very different than now. So I just kind of have to wait to see how that shakes out.

One thing on the fuel side, Norfolk, in my time covering the company is historically been viewed as like less efficient in terms of fuel for a number of different reasons. But I think last year, it's really materially changed and improved. So that didn't go unnoticed by us in particular, but like what really drove such a big gain? And is there still more room for improvement now that you've kind of broken through that at least perceived threshold?

I'll start. I think first thing we've been talking about it for years since I came 6 years ago, we've been investing more and more in modernizing our locomotive fleet from DC technology to AC technology, which is a significant -- has significant advantages in terms of fuel efficiency. So as we penetrated from what was below 30% AC in our fleet to now in our active fleet, what over 70%.

Yes. Yes. And we just finished our 1,000th locomotive that we converted DC to AC.

So that's paying the dividends that we talked about when we were making those investments. So that's a big driver. But on top of it, I think you've got to give a lot of credit to our operations folks where this is an obsession. So they are -- there's a lot of other little disciplines that they're doing, managing HPT and trying to drive every last drop of fuel productivity without compromising speed and some of the other tricks that you can do to optimize it in the short term. I will say trying to get to a fuel efficiency of a 1.0 5 years ago, I heard every story in the book about how impossible that was by our ops teams back then. We have a unique network, we can never get to that even though the other guy was there, close to there. We have too much rise and fall. We have too much curvature. Obviously, we have an adverse locomotive mix, which we did resolve, but we would never be able to get all the way down to 1.0, not even close. Well, here we are. So it's really good to see very gratifying.

Yes. I mean we finished the year last 2025 at 1.03, 5% improvement over the prior year, and we've got more improvement baked into the plan this year.

And it's been frustrating because that great fuel efficiency we had last year, right? It's kind of wasted when fuel prices are so low. So now when fuel prices spike like this, we get the advantage of that great fuel efficiency.

There you go. Well, Jason, you've been talking about in the industry has talked about more inflation at the start of the year, which is probably not too surprising, but maybe for some a little bit more than expected. One of the areas I want to ask you about is just for the merger review and it seems like maintaining good excellence services kind of pre-req. So the thought is you have to maintain like a higher level of staffing to put more buffer and resiliency in the network. But I don't know if that's necessarily true or not. I mean I don't think we can even see the headcount from the STB because they're quasi shutdown right now. But would you agree with that you're running with a little bit heavier than normal to kind of keep that buffer for the next year or so?

For sure, during this period, safety is always critically important, and we'll continue to be in service. We have to maintain the extremely high level regardless of the right? I mean we need that. We -- our customers are demanding that. So -- but that is -- those are two critical things for us. I think if you think about pure headcount, the way we're really looking at it is we're planning to be kind of flat to down with last year. We're we have some hiring that we need to do in certain locations on the T&E side, but it's really for attrition, not for growth. We've got a lot of capacity to grow at our current levels. And then we don't talk about it a lot. We talk about the T&E productivity. But if you look at our salaried workforce over the last 2 years, we're down below double digits. In that workforce. And that's again, really trying to drive efficiency and productivity throughout the organization. But the bigger, I think, levers kind of on the T&E side, it's really just hiring for attrition and trying to maintain this consistent service product. And when the volume comes, we're ready to handle it. We've got a lot of latent capacity on the network.

Yes. I think you'll probably see it like last year, a little bit of leakage on the T&E side. And while volumes may be in kind of that flattish range, you'll probably see net leakage a little bit that really translates into the productivity that product we have. I wouldn't say we're deliberately trying to keep a buffer on the network. I think generally, we drive more efficiency and productivity every year so we can absorb a little bit more attrition. And when volumes come, then you probably need to be adding a little bit more. But every railroad is going to keep a little bit of buffer to make sure that you're resilient and [ Jim ] even talks about that with at UP. Despite how low his operating ratio is with all that length of haul advantage they have and scale advantage, they talk about that, too. I mean that's just smart railroading. And you've got to be able to recover when you have a pump in the night.

But -- and the key is really just keeping that trainee pipeline going. You can't -- it's something that we found out couple of years ago, the hard way to cut that off, it takes a very, very long time to rebuild that back up.

Right. That's a good point. Mark, just in terms of the merger itself, you've been talking to Jim and team for a while now. Just be curious to hear your thoughts like at this stage, what have you learned different this may be a little bit more exciting or opportunities that you didn't quite fully appreciate it when this conversation was first starting.

I think what's been kind of refreshing and interesting is when you look at the cultures. I mean, we're obviously two very different railroads that came up with different histories we are a roll-up of, gosh, probably 100 different railroads over the past 200 years, and Norfolk Southern was born in 1982 with the combination of Norfolk and Western and the Southern Railway Company that had very different cultures, and they came together under the Thoroughbred brand and very effectively, where Union Pacific was created in basically 1862 by Lincoln with the vision to become a transcontinental railroad. And obviously, we're looking to try to fulfill that dream. But when you start to bring the teams together and you start to -- there's limits to what we can do right now, because we're not going to cross lines and done jumping in all of that. But we can start to benchmark a little and start to work on, obviously, the application together. And then we work on integration planning together, not integration work, but integration planning. And you start to see that at the core, they're railroaders on both companies. And you got a great Southern culture at Norfolk Southern, you've got a great Midwestern culture. Those are two great cultures that our country has of people who are considerate, they're kind, they're respectful of one another, and they're working on trying to truly benchmark objectively what the best from each place is. So that's been kind of encouraging, and I just had a call this to get an update on kind of where the integration planning is you run it with us, Jason, things are progressing really well. So I'm encouraged by that. I really am is how well the teams are working. And I come from -- obviously, spent 30 years in a different industry, more cutthroat industry, very acquisitive. We did a lot of M&A. I did a lot of personal M&A. And a lot of times, you're buying competitors at a hostile view you and kind of businesses from adjacent industries and trying to integrate those companies has been a challenge. This is different this is railroaders, and we're just bringing together and clicking the Lego set together to create something that covers the country compared to some of the stuff I've seen in the past and other Heck, I spent more than 6 months of my career in Korea, trying to integrate an acquisition from LG, the giant, who -- this was after the agent financial crisis 1998 wanted nothing to do with being merged with a western company and trying to carve out talent from that mothership who didn't really want to leave the mothership to come be part of this big western conglomerate was painful. And -- so I'm just encouraged because I come from a different vantage point that I've seen what hard is. I've seen how challenging integrations can be or marriages can be, and this is something that I think is almost like a Lego set.

So a big part of the Lego set coming together, a big reason for part of the thesis at least, is truckload conversion over time and as you know, in the past, it's not really how it's worked out in the industry for a bunch of different reasons, some of which we already talked about. But I guess, how would -- and we've seen that with CPKC, like they've fallen short of their goal as well. So like how is this time different? And I guess, do we really need this new Lego set to really drive this type of growth for the industry overall and obviously, for this combination?

I've spent a better part of the year thinking -- actually, since I joined the industry 5 years ago, trying to understand why we can't grow as an industry. And what is the unique obstacle. And for the early part, all I heard was just you need better service, consistent service and then customers will come to you. Well it's true we hadn't always provided that and we haven't always been reliable. But when we started to provide it, you get a little bit that come back to you, but you realize that it's not coming at you in waves. It really isn't that there's something else there. When you start to talk to customers instead of just your staff to understand why, they start giving you the real answers, which is just truck is just so much easier. It's so much more convenient. And yes, I know I got to pay 10%, 15% more, but I can go nonstop service, and I can have visibility of my shipment throughout the journey, where with you guys, you have to interchange it with somebody else, I don't have visibility, and it's -- I lose time in the middle, and it's just painful. And so when you start to understand that and then you look, and I've kind of done a lot of analysis on this. Would you look and you say, "Okay. So over the past 20 years or so, U.S. railroad volumes are down double digit", okay? Canadian railroads are not. One has grown, the others grown modestly. And aside from having a transcontinental railroad in Canada and the pleasure of coming in and competing in the U.S. as well and in one case, going all the way down to Mexico. What else is different? Well, the U.S., we've got these artificial barriers that were created in 2000, when we consolidated the industries Post Staggers Act from 80 to 2,000, we kind of frozen time all that consolidation, which, by the way, spurred tremendous growth in this industry from 1980 through 2000, as we were consolidating it spurred growth and a revival of health of the U.S. railroads because they were all failing. They were -- they had bad safety records, and they were financially failing. You allow that consolidation to have benefit from the economies of scale, volumes went up, rates actually went down, okay? And then we snap the line because integrations got screwed up by the railroads. And in 2000, the regulators understandably said, all right, no more, moratorium in place, and then they rewrote those rules. And now we're frozen in time with two in the East, two in the West. And I'm telling you that watershed in the middle that interference that's been created on the Mississippi River is the reason why I think it's the biggest impediment for why we can't grow. It's the obstacle. And that's what I hear from customers, too. It's not just instinct. So that's why I think that this is different. CPKC truckload conversion Look, I don't know the details. I don't think it's an apples-to-apples comparison. I mean the -- it's largely their north-south they've got different dynamics at play for sure. What we're talking about intra watershed, if you're trying to move product 100 miles east of the Mississippi to 100 miles west of the Mississippi, rail is not even in the thought process. Because you're going to have an interchange it's going to take 48 hours of extra time and those costs are going to be significant. Now you break that down and you create this fluidity of single-line that CPKC talked about. Customers are 2 to 3x more likely to use single line service over just traditional rail as it is today. So that's why I'm so convicted on this.

So I was at the TPM conference a couple of weeks ago. One interesting thing I heard was this perception at least at the this merger would go through that the West Coast ports would be net beneficiaries. I don't -- I guess, because UP is the technically the acquirer here, but like that seemed a little off to me, but I think it was maybe just people not knowing exactly where the freight would land and who would serve which ports. So is that something -- I mean, there's so many stakeholders involved in this transaction. But how do you think about the ports and maybe in terms of reaching the watershed, you get they're easier from one side to the other and it just more options. But it's another stakeholder group to manage.

Yes. I would trust your instincts, Brian, because they're pretty good. I think the ports in general are going to benefit all the ports in general are going to benefit. So whether it's New York and New Jersey that we serve, down to Virginia, down to Savannah, to Charleston to Jacksonville, all of those ports are going to benefit from having deeper access to the West, okay? And it's one of the things Jim and I talked about early on was this is not some desire to take out the East Coast by owning an East Coast railroad. The railroads aren't the reason why steamship lines choose ports, okay? The freight is going to find the most frictionless way to move. And we're just going to provide better optionality, deeper access into the nation from both sides. And frankly, okay, give us an option to now start bringing the U.S. freight that's currently going up to Canada ports, back to the U.S. So let's not forget that. There's a fair amount of freight that's being imported to the U.S. that comes via the Canadian ports. They have single line service and then they drop it down into the U.S. So this is another area of opportunity, whether it's on the East Coast or on the West Coast.

How do you think technology? I mean, the rail industry isn't really known for being tech forward, maybe it's putting it kindly, but can technology really play -- it kind of make a differentiating role here in the integration if it were to go forward because we still have air brakes from the 1800s for good reason, but I think there's probably some room for this to improve. So could this be a catalyst for greater technology adoption.

Yes. I mean I think you're right. I think when you think of a railroad, you don't think of cutting-edge technology, but I think there's a lot of things that we've done specifically. You think about these -- our digital portals that we have where trains are going through at full speed, and we're taking thousands of pictures a second in identifying defects in that train or things that need to be fixed. It's truly -- it is cutting edge, what we're doing, the algorithms that we've developed there, I think that's best in the industry there. So I think that's an example. I know Mark is passionate about that. He's seen has gone out and visited all these locations. And I think there's other areas where we're using AI and other spaces in the business. So I think it's -- again, I know that's the perception, but I think that's changing in what we do. I also think that both entities when you kind of move to the merger, I think we're both sophisticated technology organizations, and we've both been through different upgrades and things in the past. And I think those experiences that we've had are going to help us when we do integrate and as we start working through in our integration planning, taking all those experiences that we've had in putting specific to this to make sure that this goes as smoothly as possible.

So those -- the portals are really remarkable. I mean the concept has been around for a while, but taking photos of moving trains have been around for a while. What we're using are ultra high-speed cameras with stadium lighting that's getting images of trains at full speed with incredible resolution. And then we've written AI or data scientists have written algorithms that are able to take a standard image, this is what it should look like and find exceptions in those images and highlighted immediately sends an alert before the trains even out of the portal sends an alert to our wayside desk, who then validates that this is not a false positive that, yes, there's a missing cotter pin here, and there's a dragging brake line and this and that. And then we use our judgment as to, okay, that can wait until the next stop. It's not a critical issue. Or this issue, we got to stop that train right away. And it's really remarkable. Our data scientists have written 85 different algorithms. The number keeps climbing as they get new ideas. They work really tightly. These aren't just data scientists sitting in a room. They're sitting in a room with mechanical experts who are telling them, it would be great if we could see this. And so these guys and gals are learning the industry and they're working hand in glove. And if you come to Atlanta again, we'll show you the boardroom and these guys will display the exactly what they're doing. It's really, really neat stuff. And that's why when you look at our accident rate, single biggest driver why our accident rate has plummeted. And our mainline accident rate leads the industry 2 years in a row now, it's pretty exciting stuff. That said, I'm more excited about what AI is going to be able to do for us in the future. I mean you can think about using AI to really help us optimize our train plans, right? Help us figure out how to get out when you have issues from weather or whatever in your out of balance how to help us find solutions, there are judgments being made distributed throughout this organization every day to try to resolve unique circumstances, but not everyone has the training to use the right judgment. And you have a fair amount of turnover, so that legacy knowledge is really important to kind of capture. And so if you can start capturing that using AI and have quicker, faster real-time solutions, you can do exciting things, I believe. And I think that's why -- another reason why I do think growth in this industry is between the merger and the advanced use of technology, we can start providing meaningful advances. And I think it's critical because we're also fighting against a trucking industry that is advancing using technology including autonomous vehicles, right? So we have to have some level of modal equity here, let us use this technology to advance us, let us merge because we're competing against trucking who is unencumbered by those restrictions.

We'll be talking to one of them later today.

All right. I ask them about it.

We'll do. Well, I'll take you up on that war room visit to see the pictures. But for now, we have to wrap it there. Thanks, Mark. Thank you. I appreciate you guys coming.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you.