NORMA Group SE (NOEJ) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Yes. Good morning, good afternoon to everyone. Welcome to our conference call regarding the Q2 2025 results of NORMA Group. I'm Mark Wilhelms, Annette Stieve, our CFO, and I will guide you through the following slides. We'll answer your questions after the presentation as we always do. Now let's move into the discussion of the Q2 results and proceed with the first slide. The macroeconomic environment in Q2 has not really changed compared to Q1 when we reported sales of EUR 284.5 million. Moreover, headwinds from currency exchange, softer U.S. dollar rates put an additional pressure on our top line. As a result, our net sales totaled EUR 290.4 million in the second quarter of this year 2025. Adjusted EBIT amounted to EUR 23.4 million in the second quarter of 2025. The adjusted EBIT margin remained relatively stable at 8.1%, a number we had delivered, for example, in 2024 or 2023 full year, and it improved significantly quarter-over-quarter. You might remember that in Q1 of this year, we reported an adjusted EBIT margin of 3.6%. Our net operating cash flow was positive at EUR 31.6 million. Coming to the balance sheet, our equity ratio reached 47.9% at the end of June. And for our CO2 emissions, we are on track to reach our saving targets for this year. Let's now move on to the next slide, where we show our top line development in some more detail. Compared to the same period of the previous year, sales in the second quarter of '25 decreased by 5.2% in comparison with minus 7.9% in the first quarter of 2025. However, this development represents an improvement by 270 basis points. Negative currency effects, primarily due to the softer U.S. dollar, led to a decline in sales by 3%. While prices generally remained stable, lower volume contributed 2% to the decline in sales. Let's now move to the next slide to discuss the sales development by region. In the Americas region, shown on the left-hand side of the slide here, sales were almost at the previous year's level had it not been for the currency effects, which had a significant negative impact of 5.1% out of the 6.3% change year-over-year. As a result, sales fell to EUR 137.2 million in the second quarter. Sales in EMEA, EMEA is in the middle of the graph, the slide. Sales in EMEA amounted to EUR 119.8 million, down 2.3% on the previous year. In a difficult environment, the decline is nevertheless less pronounced than in the previous quarter, where we reported a reduction of 12.2%. In APAC, sales amounted to EUR 33.4 million in the second quarter of 2025, down 10.2% on the same quarter of the previous year. Generally, weak market conditions for Mobility & New Energy as well as industry applications led to this development with a strong negative currency translation effect coming on top of this one. On the next slide, we take a closer look into those developments. Please allow me to repeat an important remark, which we already mentioned in our Q1 call in May. In the current year, the allocation of certain customer groups to the corresponding SBUs was revised. This relates primarily to construction and agricultural machinery customers, which previously were allocated to Mobility & New Energy and are now included in industry applications. The Slide 7 actually shows more detail on those numbers. As a result, sales development in the first 2 quarters of 2025 is only comparable to the respective quarter in the previous year to a limited extent and therefore, carefully take a look on the detailed numbers here. In Americas, these relocations led to an increase in sales of 12.6% in Industry Applications. In Water Management, currency effects had a negative impact of 4.5% in total and despite a slight growth in volume, sales declined by 2.1% in the second quarter for Water Management. In MNE, sales decreased by 19.3% as a result of tariffs messing up some markets, negative currency translation effect and the already mentioned reallocation of sales. Let's now move to EMEA. Restrained demand in combination with the reallocation of sales resulted in an increase of 9% in Industry Applications. In Water Management, we have also reallocated some sales, which led to an increase by 41.6%. In MNE, subdued markets and the mentioned reallocation of customers resulted in a decrease by 7.2%. And now APAC, in Industry Applications, reallocations of sales from IA to Water Management as well as a weak market combined with unfavorable currency effects caused a sales decline by 23.6%. In Water Management, mainly the reallocation of sales, but also growth in volume, which was almost completely offset by negative currency effects, summed up to an increase of 10.2%, while MNE, low volume as well as a reallocation of sales contributions and unfavorable currency effects in addition, resulted in a sales reduction of 12.6%. On the next slide, we will report on our sales by business unit. Let's start on the left-hand side with Industry Applications. Sales increased by 7.5% in Q2 of this year. The reallocation of businesses previously allocated to MNE, especially from construction and agricultural machinery and stationary energy storage on the one hand, had a positive impact, subdued market-related demand and negative currency effects; on the other hand, had a dampening effect. In Water Management, sales development was almost stable at minus 0.4%. Unfavorable currency translation effects, predominantly from the U.S. dollar, more than offset increases in both price and volume. The reclassification of sales in EMEA and APAC, which previously belonged to the IA definition dampened the currency effect. Mobility & New Energy sales were 11.8%, below the level of the same quarter of the previous year. This was mainly driven by uncertainties relating to the potential global impact of trade tariffs, U.S. trade tariffs to be precise, in the reclassification of sales from MNE to IA intensified the negative trend in addition to unfavorable currency effects. Let me now hand over to Annette Stieve, who will give you more details on the financials in the second quarter.

Many thanks, Mark, and hello, everyone, and also a warm welcome from my side. Let's start with an overview on the development of our P&L. Material costs decreased disproportionately compared to the decrease in sales. At 43.2% in Q2, the material cost ratio was 50 bps below the figure for Q2 of the previous year. As a result of lower material costs, the gross margin -- the gross profit margin rose by 110 bps in Q2 '25. Personnel costs in total fell in the second quarter, while the personnel cost ratio rose by 100 bps due to lower sales volumes and inefficiencies. The other expenses decreased in total and remained almost stable in relation to sales. Adjusted EBITDA and adjusted EBIT improved significantly in Q2 '25 compared to Q1 this year. Our Q2 adjusted EBIT margin achieved 8.1%. The H1 margin came in at 5.9%. Let's have a look at our adjusted EBIT margin by region in the next slide. The adjusted Q2 EBIT margin in the Americas was 170 bps up against the prior year's development. This was supported by lower costs for regular freights and a beneficial product mix. In EMEA, adjusted Q2 EBIT margin came to 0.5%, which represents a significant improvement over Q1. In general, EBIT margin in the EMEA region was negatively impacted by the temporary structural inflexibility in personnel costs in combination with lower sales. As a result, personnel costs could not be fully tailored to the revenue level in the first 2 quarters of '25. High one-off costs in Q1 added to this development. Adjusted EBIT margin in APAC amounted to 6.3%, which also marks a significant improvement over Q1. The main reason for the decline year-over-year was likewise increased personnel costs due to existing inflexibilities in personnel structures in conjunction with lower sales. At the next slide, we show our operational adjustments in the P&L. This year, they are expected to include around EUR 15 million from PPA effects. In addition, we assume around EUR 20 million associated transaction costs in connection with the sale of the Water Management business. On top, adjustments from one-offs for transformation costs up to EUR 30 million are to be expected this year. Mark Wilhelms will give you the detail on our transformation in a few minutes. Let's have a look to our EPS on the next slide. Adjusted net income for Q2 amounted to EUR 10.6 million, which was almost at the same level as previous year. Adjusted earnings per share for Q2 were at EUR 0.33, which was also almost at the same level as previous year. So also in our EPS, you can see a significant improvement quarter-over-quarter. Let's move over to the balance sheet figures. Our net debt slightly increased by 1.7% against end of '24. Due to the lower EBITDA, leverage was up to 2.5x adjusted EBITDA from 2.3x as of June last year. Total equity levels at EUR 648 million. The equity ratio decreased by 230 basis points to 47.9% as a result of foreign exchange translation effects, which had an impact about EUR 61 million. On the next slide, we will discuss our net operating cash flow. Net operating cash flow decreased in 2Q compared to last year. This is primarily due to the lower EBITDA and the lower trade working capital effect. Please let me point out that net operating cash flow as well as free cash flow, both are solidly positive in Q1 and Q2 -- in Q1 and H1 -- sorry, in Q2 and H1 despite significant headwinds on the top line and additional one-off costs compared to last year. With this, I hand over back to Mark Wilhelms.

Yes. Thanks a lot, Annette. Ladies and gentlemen, after a soft start into the year, the second quarter is looking a bit better, especially in terms of our adjusted EBIT margin. Therefore, we see no reason to revise the outlook for the full year published on the 7th of March of this year. In view of the continuing volatile economic development, the Management Board does not expect business to develop and to pick up substantially in the further course of the year. However, we anticipate a revival of business in parts of our customer industries in the second half of the year, mainly in Water Management and Industry Applications. NORMA Group focuses on improving its profitability. Our business activities are strategically aligned accordingly. In the remaining slides, I would like to give you an overview of our step-up progress before we will talk about our transformation programs. Let's begin with a good example of our efficiency measures. Here, we talk about the production plant in Poland, where we implemented a semi-automatic flex line -- flex assembly line for cooling lines. Initially, 4 operators per shift were required in a manual production cell with more than 60% manual labor content. This means that the potential for automation has not yet been fully exploited. The production cells and tools were originally tailored to a specific product group. As a result, we had to cope with low flexibility and the high risk of delays for nonconforming, i.e., poor quality products. Our colleagues in Poland found the solution in a flexible and semi-automatic assembly process that led to a substantially more efficient station layout. The work is now carried out as a one-piece flow, which results in better economics for the operator as well as higher productivity. Quick tool changes enable process flexibility, for example, when adapting to different customer requirements. In the end, the plant reduced the number of operators per cell from 4 to 1, a reduction of 75%. Ladies and gentlemen, we are aware that current sales figures are not satisfying. We are, however, committed to improve them. For this reason, we would like to present 2 step-up projects from our growth initiatives in the sales area that we are particularly proud of. The first project is related to Industry Applications. Our colleagues on every continent have worked tirelessly to take a share of the data center mega trend. While NORMA Group already supplies data centers worldwide with various products, dedicated sales teams are working on further business opportunities. Our latest product launch in Asia Pacific region was a stainless steel quad cable camp. The cable clamp is designed to secure up to 4 cables simultaneously. It offers outstanding mechanical stability, improved protection and efficient use of space in a highly demanding environment. Our new product allowed us to win an order from a major U.S. customer in Malaysia for data center cabling. In the U.S., our colleagues are working on solutions for the cooling systems of data centers. As you know, we are experts in fluid management, and therefore, the management of coolant is also one of our areas of expertise. The U.S. team is working with its customers, DIXON and MFCP to explore opportunities with key OEMs in this segment. Overall, this success marks a great step forward in our industry application strategy as we are targeting data centers with our step-up initiatives since 2023. So stay tuned. There's more to come. In the second project, there's a special highlight from the SBU Mobility & New Energy. At investor meetings, we are often asked how extensively we supply Chinese players in the market for e-mobility. In the past quarter, there have been some notable successes that I would like to share with you here in the call. NORMA Group has received new orders from 12 e-mobility customers in China, including traditional and new OEMs as well as Tier 1 suppliers. These customers cover a wide variety of vehicles with various drive types, including light vehicles, smart cars, SUVs and robotaxi models. NORMA Group components are used in critical thermal management systems for electromobility, such as battery thermal management, coolant circuits, heat pump systems, just to mention a few. So the answer to your question is, yes, the NORMA technology is also used in local Chinese OEM products, and we are making inroads into these customers. The projects presented today are intended to help us improve our revenues and profitability. Along with our efficiency and growth measures, we are working to ensure that the shift in our SBU sales mix from MNE, which is automotive essentially to IA improves the margin quality. A double-digit margin at group level is what we are targeting for in the midterm, as you all know. Now ladies and gentlemen, as already announced during our Q1 call, we shared details on our global transformation. As a reminder, we want our group to adapt to a NewNORMA, which is characterized by an ever-changing market environment and the need for lean and efficient structures. Our target is crystal clear. We want to remain financially strong and increase our flexibility and thus be able to seize opportunities offered to us by the market. We want to invest in innovation and successfully transform our company towards an industrial powerhouse. Our target vision is outlined at the next slide. The target that we are pursuing with all our measures is absolutely clear. NORMA Group is to become a focused supplier of connection technology for fluid -- for industrial and mobility customers or as we call it, an industrial powerhouse. We will differentiate us as an innovative, high-quality driven solution provider. The new setup will follow a lean organization under 2 sales segments, Industry Applications and Mobility & New Energy. As a result of the global transformation and once all measures are fully implemented, our group should return towards a double-digit adjusted margin. The entire transformation process is expected to be fully implemented until 2028. Let's now deep dive into what this covers on the next slide. We've laid the foundation for a global transformation based on 3 major blocks of measures: lean organization. As a part of our measures, we will streamline the organization under the 2 sales segments, Industry Applications and Mobility & New Energy. By this, we understand an extremely efficient structure that is clearly geared towards customer needs and fast decision-making processes. In connection with the optimization of our global production network, any duplicate structure in administration will be eliminated and further efficiency gains achieved. Overall, this will speed up our process and significantly reduce overall administrative costs. Second point on the list, OpEx, we have identified significant potential savings in other costs. These range from insurance to service contracts to rent payments. By adapting our business model with a clear focus on our synergetic core business, we can eliminate costs of several million euros per annum in operating expenses. Third one is footprint. We will optimize our global manufacturing footprint over the coming years. As already mentioned in the last call, NORMA Group has expanded its manufacturing locations by several acquisitions over the past decade. This has led to a footprint which is rather fragmented and not streamlined according to the current market environment. We will thus optimize our footprint by integrating smaller production facilities into larger locations and thus achieving economics of scale. The start of the global transformation program has been initiated. At the following slides, I will give you some further details. Lean organization, the first block on this slide. Within the measure block of lean organization, we are targeting global savings of up to EUR 30 million per year. As a reminder, we will achieve these savings also in connection with our optimization of the global production network. We will eliminate any duplicate structure in administration and are targeting for further efficiency gains. We kindly ask for your understanding that we cannot comment on any potential headcount measures right now at this point as selective HR measures are subject to prior collective consultation with social partners where applicable. OpEx in the middle of the slide, most of the OpEx savings have already been identified and the implementation of the first measures has been started. As mentioned, the identified potentials cover insurance contracts, service contracts as well as rent payments. In total, we are targeting annual savings in OpEx of about EUR 12 million from 2028 on. About 2/3 of the targeted savings are expected to be fully effected from the year 2027 on. Footprint. Our key target is the optimization and the increase in efficiency in all regions. During the last call, we gave you an impression of our approach when we reported on our Wuxi plant relocation in China. Two further footprint measures have been initiated in the meantime. One, we will also move our site in the Changzhou city to our larger premises in Changzhou. This measure is expected to be finalized until the end of this year. Together with the already announced footprint measure in Wuxi, we will reduce the number of production facilities in China from 4 to 2. This will enable a streamlined Chinese administration as well as a better space utilization in the plants without losing any production capabilities in China. Second, we will close our warehouse in Adelaide, Australia and combine it with a warehouse in Melbourne. This project is also expected to be finalized until the end of this year. These are just 2 further footprint optimization projects, which we can already announce. Details and progress of other intended measures will be announced depending on customer contracts and negotiation with social partners. All measures outlined here are tracked and regularly reported on by a dedicated project management office within NORMA. This ensures that we achieve our ambitious goals within the time frame that we set ourselves. At the next slide, I will give you an overview of the estimated cost and benefits related to this global transformation. For the global transformation, we expect cumulative savings for the years 2025 to 2028 in the range of about EUR 82.5 million to EUR 91.5 million in comparison to the 2024 baseline. Already next year, meaning 2026, we expect a major part of the intended measures to be executed. We do expect cumulated onetime costs related to the global transformation in the range of EUR 54 million to EUR 61 million, the bulk of which will already be accrued in the current year. All transformation-related implementation costs will be adjusted in our EBIT. As you can see at this slide, we do expect not only costs, but also benefits in the current year. To be more precise, some of the costs and benefits already accrued during the first half of 2025. As you can see in our H1 report, costs in the amount of EUR 2.9 million were booked. On the other hand, our adjusted EBIT margin increased quarter-over-quarter significantly despite the headwinds on the top line, a clear proof that we are embarking on the right path. All measures for the years 2025 and '26 have a high degree of maturity in terms of both costs and benefits. In light of the current economic environment and our ambitious targets, we will proceed with these measures as planned. With a closer look on the expected benefits, you will see that a bulk of the measures will be implemented in 2026 and will show the full year saving benefits in first time in the year '27. In total, this means that we will have a payback on the measures for the year '25 and '26 already in 2027. Moreover, also from a cash perspective, we will be positive for these measures in the year '27. On the other hand, we have consciously left some key decisions on further measures open for the period from '27 onwards. This is due to the dynamic market environment in which we do not have to necessarily make certain decisions today. This will have an impact on costs and benefits only on the medium term. Moreover, we want to leave as much freedom as possible for our new CEO, Mrs. Seeger, to shape the future and bring in her extensive know-how from transforming companies. Based on our current assumption, we have, therefore, listed indicative estimates for possible additional costs and benefits on the slide, but please note that these may change once our new CEO has been fully onboarded. At the next slide, I will give you a brief summary on our path towards becoming an industrial powerhouse. The path is defined by 3 pillars as shown on this slide. I have already elaborated on the first pillar on the left-hand slide, our global transformation over the past couple of minutes. The target of which is clear, we want to drive our earnings per share by substantial savings and invest into our future revenue streams, especially in the industrial applications area. The second pillar for our path is M&A., the middle block on this slide. There are 2 major projects under this pillar. The first one is the divestment of our global Water Management activities. All work streams are progressing according to our schedule, and we are confident to finalize the process around year-end. The second major project is to invest into selected IA targets. Our focus in this project is absolutely on the strategic fit. We have started a structural process to identify potential targets. Any potential M&A target must be supportive not only for our IA growth, but of course, also contribute to our margin targets. We are carefully reviewing any opportunities without any need to rush. Quality clearly takes priority over speed on this one. The third pillar is our step-up program. Whilst the first 2 pillars have clearly defined time frame, step-up is meant to be a continuous process. It is about a change of mindset within our employee base in order to foster continuous progress in both efficiency and growth measures in our business units and the entire organization. All in all, these 3 pillars together play an important role in our way towards becoming an industrial powerhouse. We have clearly defined action plans and internal project management for all 3 areas. Thus, we are firmly convinced that these measures will enable us to achieve our ambitious goals. Before coming to a summary of our transformation, let me please give you an overview of our capital allocation priorities on the next slide. We've frequently been asked about our capital allocation strategy over the last couple of months. Based on this, we have communicated our priorities after divestment of our Water Management activities, for example, during our AGM in May. The 3 priorities consist in a trifold measures as follows: deleverage. We want to significantly delever our company after the divestment of our Water Management activities. It is not only about paying back debt to borrowers. This step will also help us to lower the interest payments and thus support the EPS growth. We are targeting our vision of an industrial powerhouse, a leverage of about 1.5x adjusted EBITDA is seen as appropriate for a steady state. But now what do we mean with steady state? For us, this means the time after successful transformation and after the integration of potential M&A targets. In the meantime, and depending on the transaction size, the leverage might differ. But once we've entered in the future into the steady state, we should have a leverage in the desired corridor. Second point, value-creating M&A. As set out before, we are targeting value-enhancing investments with a clear focus on strategic fit. Again, quality takes priority over speed. Third block, important, shareholder returns. We want to give our shareholders a fair share in the proceeds from the water business sale, most likely through share buybacks and/or special dividends. The Executive Board and the Supervisory Board will discuss the details together after the sales process is successfully completed, and we know and understand the proceeds. Moreover, we stick to our long-term dividend policy and want to distribute about 30% to 35% of our adjusted annual group earnings. Continuous investment. Only if we stay ahead of the curve from a technological and product point of view, we can convince our customers and thus generate attractive returns. We will, therefore, keep our annual CapEx target where it is with about 5% of revenue. Our focus is on product innovation and further automation as well as digitalization. This capital allocation enables us to optimally combine the core elements of successful business management for a listed company. We maintain and strengthen a solid financial foundation. We invest strategically in the future and thus the company's earnings potential. We allow our shareholders to participate appropriately in our success. Ladies and gentlemen, what we have outlined today marks our path from a vision towards our target of becoming an industrial powerhouse. Once successfully implemented, the NewNORMA will be characterized by the following success factors. We will have a stronger market position in the industry application market, which offers a high growth potential and good margins. Our competitiveness in the field of mobility will be significantly enhanced by both product innovations as well as cost effectiveness. Our lean administration will be focused on key tasks and faster decision-making processes. And our global production and distribution network will support our lean and cost-efficient approach while offering highest delivery, reliability and quality. All of the measures we have presented are building the base for our financials and sustainable attractiveness, not only for our shareholders, but also for all other stakeholders. And with this, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to thank you very much for joining the call, and we are now looking forward to your questions.

[Operator Instructions] And the first question is from Marc-René Tonn, Warburg Research.

A very comprehensive introduction you gave to the transformation program. Now a couple of questions from my side would be regarding the cash out, I think you elaborated on that from the transformation program. Perhaps you could, from the total cost, give us some indication how much you would expect in terms of cash out and whether these will be more front-end loaded. On the other side, looking on your profitability in the second quarter, I think you had a pretty strong profitability in the Americas segment in Q2. Was it more a product mix issue? Or was it -- did you even experience some benefits perhaps from tariffs in the competitive environment in this market? And I think probably still pretty early, but when you talk about, let's say, the priorities or, let's say, the -- what you want to do, and I think very clear statement which you made with regard to deleveraging. But looking at the, let's say, fair share distribution to shareholders and, let's say, cash out envisage for M&A, are you prepared to already give some more split here or a more precise split, particularly as you, let's say, seem to be expecting your M&A activities to be mainly focused on 2026, which would be pretty quickly. So perhaps some statements there, whether you have already some targets in sight, which you are looking at.

Well, that's, I would say, a very good summary of questions. I propose, Mark, that you are starting and then I step in.

Kind of a mixture from forward-looking and past quarter questions, very hard to keep track of. Let's go through them in your sequence. I mean the cash out, we mentioned that in 2025, we will accrue. I mean, accrue means we accrue, there's no cash out. The accrual typically is for redundancy costs, handshakes and the like. The cash out for this about EUR 30 million will primarily happen '26, '27. Those numbers are typically in the middle of the program. The other costs you see there on that slide towards the back end that will be true cash out in that very year like in '28. Therefore, key point is cash out numbers, '25 move those to '26 for the cash out. The rest, you might, given the preciseness of the numbers, take as they are because it about fits. The next question related to the margin in Americas in the second quarter. We did some price changes to our water customers in the year that has helped in general, the U.S. business is heavily towards the water business, which is margin stronger. So that should help us. And also, it is a bit of catch-on effect from Q1 points that were booked in the first 3 months of the year. Annette, do you want to add something to that?

Yes. So that is, on the one hand, I would say it's in particular, really the catch-up. We had a pretty weak Q1. We knew that we could start later with our -- due to weather patterns with our water business digging the projects in the earth. That's a typical spillover effect. On top, I think we did a great job, not only in water, but really also in every business group in order to, at the end, negotiate with our customers and to, at the end, bring over our tariff burdens, which are roughly around EUR 3.5 million, EUR 4 million, and we were able to, at the end, recharge nearly the biggest bulk of it, so 90% to our customers, which is really absolutely great achievement. Is it going on like this? To be honest, I don't have a glass ball because finally, we don't know what the President of the United States is all doing with tariffs. It will always show a little hesitation because, first of all, he throws something out and then he is willing to negotiate. That makes things not really easier. But at the end, we are really happy that we had such an achievement to bring that over, and we will go on like this.

Another part of your question revolved around how to share the proceeds of the water business. The end of the day, as we don't know for sure where this will end up with, it is still very, very premature to make a statement here. As we've said, we want to deleverage the company. We want to do it in IA, in the industrial area, some acquisition, and then there will be, in my opinion, a nice chunk to be distributed. But putting precise numbers to it is simply too early as the negotiations for the sale of the water business are not yet finished. The process is still ongoing. Therefore, we have to wait in sending out clear signals.

I think that's the same, Mark. Marc, you asked for more details on these 3 pillars under fully with Mark Wilhelms. And also in terms of leverage, I think we showed a perspective where we should be once we did the transformation in between, that is the question then of the details. For sure, we will delever and bring our debt down first. That's the first step to start with. And then it comes step by step with the acquisition, the potential one and things like this. I hope that I got everything or if we remain with something.

Perfectly fine.

The next question is from Pal Skirta, Bankhaus Metzler.

It's Pal from Metzler. I have 2, if I may. The first one is a more technical one. Based on your full year guidance for adjustments of EUR 65 million. And if I'm doing the math correctly, it looks like there is still approximately EUR 53 million left to be booked this year in adjustments. Could you please provide some color on the phasing of the remaining adjustments? Specifically, how much should we expect to recognize in the current quarter and then in the fourth quarter? And then I also have a follow-up regarding your industrial business, given that we had many moving parts this year, like the new tariff agreement between the U.S. and the European Union, the German federal government spending programs, the big beautiful bill in the U.S., which potentially can trigger a CapEx cycle, thanks to more generous depreciation schemes. I was wondering if you could share with us what you are hearing from your customers? Do you expect the second half of the year to improve in the industrial field relative to the first half? And in particular, could the fourth quarter see a stronger momentum, stronger environment, especially as we now have more certainty around the tariff situation between Europe and the U.S?

Yes. Thank you, Pal, for your question. So maybe I start with a more technical one in terms of adjustments, what we see there. As already said, we cluster our expected adjustments this year also, again, so it seems to be our figure for the time being in 3 pillars. We have, on the one hand, the typical PPA effects, EUR 15 million, what NORMA has since ages. On the other hand, we have this EUR 20 million that mostly is connected to the water -- the sale of the water business. That is finally then also based on how much we get. And for sure, we have a very good, the best in the world, I would say, but also not a cheap investment bank with us, and they will then become -- get their proceeds what is dependent on the final price. The EUR 30 million, to give more color on this one-off for the transformation costs, there I ask you really for understanding. We will come up later in the course of the year with more details. But for the time being, we are started to be in contact with our respective partners and committees. And therefore, we don't want to split that more for the time being. It's consisting out of on the one hand, OpEx and on the other hand, different other pillars, what we already mentioned.

Then your second question related to what we hear in the market -- from the market in terms of improvement for the second half of the year. As I indicated during the presentation, there is some positive outlook, but I think we all need to recognize the world over the last 3, 4 years got more complicated, much harder to read than ever in the past. NORMA stands ready to support the customer with deliveries. We are ready to go to ship. But the hose clamps and so on, the customers only buy and order when they need them. How those big build or investment programs of the government will ripple through our customer base and how visible that will be for us is pretty hard to say right now.

Finally, we are still in a very volatile environment. And it is really also the world is shaky over geopolitical things. There will be an important meeting later in the week for the world. So these are all things which are reflected there. It's hard at the end to estimate, yes.

The next question is from Nikita Papaccio, Deutsche Bank.

Lot of my questions were already answered. But I have 2 left. So the first one on your transformation program. You mentioned that there are cost savings for 2025 of EUR 4.5 million. How much did you realize already in H1? Or differently asked, what can we expect for H2? Is the majority -- so did you recognize any of the EUR 4.5 million in H1? And then the second question, I mean, we are well into Q3 already. So what can you see across regions and segments? Maybe you can outline some differences compared to H1?

Well, thank you, Nikita. I will start with the first one. And after that, I give over to Mark again. Well, I would say roughly half of it, 50% we already realized in H1. And the rest we expect for H2. That is a pretty concrete answer. So Mark, now it's with you.

Yes. Thanks. You asked for some details on Q2. You know we are not supposed to get too much into the details of the current year -- of the current quarter. But nevertheless, the water business is doing pretty nicely. The overall automotive business, given the summer months is when most customers are on vacation will be kind of softer overall, for the rest of the year, we remain cautiously optimistic. And as Annette Stieve said, there are many things happening that may cause everybody of us to change his course and this view as a consumer. There are many reasons for consumers to be very careful with their spending.

Nikita, I hope this answers your question.

Yes.

And the next question is from Yasmin Steilen, Berenberg.

I have 3, and we'll take them one by one, please. So the first one, you highlighted the order win with 12 e-mobility customers in China, including traditional and new OEMs. Could you confirm that every single contract is in accordance with your double-digit profitability target for Mobility & New Energy? And are there any price reductions reflected in this contract? That's my first question.

Yes. Those contracts are in our margin target. So that should actually help us on the path towards 10% EBIT margin. Keep in mind, not all those orders will be shipped in the next couple of weeks. The Chinese are fast, but it's not something you will see in the Q3 numbers.

Anyhow, Yasmin, you can always rely on this we are doing since I would say, more than 2 years. We are not accepting any more any kind of calculated EBIT margins less than double digit. The only exception might be, so we always calculate like this and take it. There can be an exception when then a program turns out really under the estimate of volumes. This we cannot bake in. But at the end, since 2 years, we are doing that already, and we will go on like this.

And price reduction, well, that is a normal habit in automotive. Not all of them, but some of them have set in there the usual 1%, 2% coming. But this depends, as Annette said, also on the volumes being ordered by the customer.

Finally, we are not -- thank goodness, not back on the track as in front of COVID. So we are really, really greedy with price reductions, and we demand normally more. So -- and then now when we look to tariff and all these things, we even demand more. So therefore, we are well underway in our price achievements. And therefore, the answer is really limited.