NOTE AB (publ) (NQA.F) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to NOTE's year-end report. How do we summarize this year and quarter? If we start with the quarter, it's a quarter where we made a very -- where we came back to the profitability that we are hoping and expecting, maybe we're in the higher end compared to where we have been and where our long-term objective has been, but that is not a bad thing as I see it. Profitability is very important for us because that builds, how should I say, a foundation for what we want to do in the future. Profitability and cash generation is what gives us the opportunity to be aggressive in the consolidation that is ongoing in the market. So this quarter is yet another quarter where we show our ability to adjust and adapt to the current surroundings. Our top line, we're not that high. We came in just barely in our guidance. We had some delays and pushouts from the Defense area. We are also seeing that in the first quarter. And to be clear, those pushouts are not lost sales. Those are delayed sales, and that means that currently, we have some issues with -- especially test, getting products through test. That sounds very straightforward and easy, but these are really complex products with a lot of different processes involved. So we see some delays there, and we have had some pushouts from our customers from the fourth quarter and from also now in January. We do expect the Defense segment to come in really strong for the year. We have previously guided for our expectations of plus 30% year-over-year until 2030. We do not see any reason why that trend is broken. We see our order backlog in this segment is the highest ever. So that means that we are fairly comfortable that we will see a very good Defense, and Security and Defense segment development throughout the year. And also, if we look forward beyond 2026, we also see that the projections from our customers is continuing to be really strong, and our projections for '27 and onwards in this segment is yet even stronger. So yes, we see some pushouts from the fourth quarter. We see some delays that is coming in, in the first part of Q1. But for the year and for the quarters to come, we are expecting really strong development in this segment. Moving on. Sales, SEK 1 billion for the quarter, SEK 3.8 billion for the year. Profitability, our underlying OP, 11.4%, I think the best we have done before in percentage is 10.6%. But what I'm very pleased with is that we are getting the result all the way down to profit after tax, SEK 3.04 per share is also one of the strongest we have ever presented. It's the best we have done underlying in both absolute terms, but also in percentage. We have had some higher results in some quarters due to onetime effects, but this is the best we have ever done. Operating cash flow. This is to me a bit -- this is the weakest cash flow quarter we have had in, I think, 9 quarters. I don't see the trend of having a cash generation exceeding the earnings after tax that, that has broken. We had some -- yes, we had some customers that were not paying as they should in the end of December, those have paid. So we will expect Q1 to be stronger in relation to Q4 then. So this is just what some of the larger companies are doing. We try to prevent that from chasing them hard. This year, we didn't succeed as well as we did last Q4. So that's why we see -- we don't see the operating cash flow coming in as we expected. But we are -- as I said before, we still expect that we have another, say, SEK 100 million in positive cash flow compared to our -- the normal cash generation that we have. So cash flow, we do expect that, that will remain strong. What I'm very pleased with is for the year, we managed to extend the Torsby site, continue to invest in equipment and capacity. And on top of that, we did the acquisition of Kasdon Electronics. And all of that, we managed to do with our own cash generation. I think that's a big sign of strength for us. Also where we stand on a cash position today, we are seeing that we can take an active part of the ongoing consolidation in the industry. I said that in 2025, I think it was the year with the most of, what we call it, high-level acquisition that has been made in the industry. We see some acquisition from our peers that have been quite sizable. We see good momentum in this sector. However, I still see that there is plenty or several of targets that is out there and are in dialogue today. So my projection is that we will see a continuous quite steep consolidation period in 2026. And I think that NOTE has -- we are still in a position to take an active part in that consolidation with our strong balance sheet, 48% in equity after this acquisition is, in my opinion, fantastic. So I think we do a very good job in that area. Moving on, if I look at what we have done in the fourth quarter, the acquisition of Kasdon, it's a small company. Sales about GBP 12 million, GBP 13 million, very strong profitability, strong customer retention. I've been there a few times the last quarter, and I think I've had 5 different customer meetings there, and every one of them are targeting to extend the business with us. So we're really, really pleased with what we see from the generation of leads that is coming out of this acquisition. So I think that this will turn out to be one of the turning points when we look backwards for the group. So I think that is something that we are very pleased with. We continue to invest in our expansion. We took the premises in Torsby in late November. We're now moving into the new site, 7,000 new square meters of production area. We more than doubled the site in capacity. This site looks really, really strong, and what we also see is that we now are taking the last steps to make this site very defense production capable. It was before, but we take more steps in this. So this will be one area where we expect good growth in that segment. We also see that other segments in Torsby is doing well. So Torsby, we do have a very positive outlook for, not only in the Security and Defense but also in other areas. We have some of our largest Industrial customers are there. We have some of our largest Medtech customers are there, and every one of them is performing in line with expectations. We will relocate in Lund. That will happen in the second quarter. I don't know exactly which date, I think we will take the building in April time frame, March, April time frame. We will have a gradual move into that. That building is -- we have built it to our wishes, if you put it like that. So this is a building that will be much more efficient than the current one we have. The current one we have is old. We have a lot of small rooms. It's not space efficient. We are subleasing premises in the building next to us in Lund just to cope with the steep demand we have there. So this will be a very good opportunity for us to streamline that operation and continue with the efficiencies that we do in that site. We're also expanding our Finnish site. We will take that premises in, I think, August, September time frame. So we're in the last preparations of that move as well. In Finland, we are going from just below 2,000 square meters up to something 3,300 to 3,500, if I recall it right. But also here, the building is significantly more efficient than the current one we have. The current one we have is quite narrow. It's L-shaped. This will be a square box with -- built to our needs in that area as well. So we have high expectations that this will be a very good step forward for us. What we also see is that we continue to build our competencies and technologies and processes to be stronger going forward. So our ability to meet our customers' demands are really, really aligned. We see that the products that we make, especially in the Security and Defense area are quite complex, and we continue to invest in processes to support that growth. I think most of our peers that are in this area are doing very similar things. But we see that our position and our capacity that we have in this area is sizable. So we see that our customers are taking on big orders, and we are trying to mirror that capacity growth that they are expecting in our factories, so we can easily take on the growing needs in this segment. So that's one thing that we are also working heavily on. Order backlog, 11% up. I've talked about it during the last quarters that we see tendencies of growth in this area. Now we see that it's turning into good positive numbers. What we also see is that those that follow us during the component crisis in '21, '22 and '23, we talked about the extension of the order backlog. Today, the order backlog is normalized. So we don't see that we have orders from industrial customers 2 years away. So therefore, we think the order backlog is a good indication of where we're heading for the coming year. The majority of our order backlog is due for delivery in 2026. There are some defense orders that are on the other side of '26, but most of the orders are in '26. That's also very important to keep in mind. We see that this is back to normal levels. We also see that if you talk about delivery times on components and so on, there is no indications of shortages if we exclude memories, and the AI storage is consuming a lot of the memories. So we watch that space quite carefully because that is, to me, the next possible problem area when it comes to limitation of availability of components. Looking ahead, our balance sheet. I talked about it, almost 50% in equity, SEK 403 million in net debt that went up. We were actually debt free, if I recall it, when we reported in Q3. So we took on some debt in the last acquisition. I think that we still have a very low net debt compared to peers and compared to industry. So we would not be hesitant to take on more debt if that is needed. We also think that our balance sheet is strong. We think our liquidity position is basically where we were some 5 quarters away. So we don't see this as a limitation either. So good preparation for the year to come, good expectation of a continued cash flow. So we are quite active to -- or we're quite aggressive in the market that will be lying in 2026. And I'll talk about our operational excellence. When I say that our delivery performance is back where it should be, that means that we are delivering above 96% on time in full. That is a really strong message to our customers that we will deliver what we promise. I was a bit annoyed in the early part of '25 when this took a little bit too long to get there. Now we are there. We have a few sites that are lagging, but the overall picture is very strong. From a quality point of view, we are continuing to deliver, aligned with, for example, we were meeting, for example, the automotive industry demands when it comes to PPM levels. So we are doing way above what our -- what we have in our agreements and what our customers' expectations are here. And this is an area that I'm very proud of because the most annoying as a buyer is if your supplier don't deliver on time or if you have quality problems, then you always discuss those rather than the extension of business. So I want to have these questions should be off the table. So our focus is to be strong. We should be better than the industry. And therefore, we are also not targeting to have our inventory turns above 5 because we think that, that will give us flexibility to meet customers' demand. So even if we say that we have some SEK 100 million still available to free up in our inventory, but that's about -- when we have done that, I think we are aligned. Now we are in the midpoint or just below midpoint of our target for inventory turns. But very important, operational efficiency, operational excellence and delivery performance is something that we -- we see that as a necessity. So this is one of the areas that we focus on the most. Going into our segments. Fourth quarter, strong both in -- for the group. I think we talk -- I think a lot of companies talk about their profitability on EBIT or EBITDA level. I think that for us, we also watch how do we perform on the financial net and how do we manage to get the profit in after tax. I think that's often neglected in today's reporting that if you're just positive on EBITDA, then everyone is quite happy. I think that we work on all aspects of our P&L. I think for us to generate the cash we do, we need to be efficient in how we do it with our financial activities. I think our finance net went down this quarter, partly due to lower debt, but also due to that, we work heavily on assuring that we have the right setup there. For the year, I think 10.1% underlying OP, I think we have reported 1 year better than that. I think that was '22 we were slightly above this, but that was during a very extreme period of the EMS industry where growth were just astronomic. I think we ended that year with 42% growth or something. So this is, to me, much more difficult to do. So this is one of the -- I would say, 2025 is, to me, probably our best year from an operational performance side. Cash flow, as I said, to be able to generate cash flow also after this acquisition of Kasdon, the extension of Torsby and extensive CapEx program that we do on our investment side, I think that is really pleasing to see. So very proud of that. Moving on into our segments. I think this is also important. We were seeing that our Rest of the World has developed very nicely during the year, 8.2%. I think that is the best we have done in that region. For Western Europe, 10.4%, we have been higher than that. I remember it's a number of 10.9% for -- I think that has also must have been 2022, but we're closing in on that and the last quarter is higher. So yes, we expect that we are where we want to be on this side. If you look at the different countries, Sweden continued to be strong, plus/minus 0. Yes, there is a lot of ups and downs in that number, I can tell you. So it's not a straightforward line here. But I think we do -- most activities in Sweden are done fairly good. U.K., we've talked about it before, 30% or so down. We are expecting growth in U.K. for 2026. It's a bit like the EV segment. We're at a level where it cannot go down, if I put it like that. But not only that, we see also good signals from some of our largest customers. The customer we talked about last year that has cleared out their demands. So we are forecasting for them to go up to a level of maybe GBP 4 million to GBP 5 million this year. So that is a good recovery on that customer alone. So we also see that other of our larger customers are coming in with slight increases. So U.K., we have good expectations of that we will do a good turnaround in that country for this year. Rest of the World, yes, good growth in Estonia, fairly good growth in China, and these numbers are also excluding -- or after currency. So the growth in local currencies are quite much stronger. For the year, I think we expect some growth in Estonia. I think China is a bit soft for 2026. So we will see where Rest of the World will end up during this year, but Estonia looks good. Bulgaria looks good, even though it's a small site. We have a lot of very interesting programs aligned for -- in the pipeline for Bulgaria. China is a bit -- yes, I wouldn't say problematic, but I would not be surprised if I see a few percentage down when I summarize China for 2026. But all in all, I expect Rest of the World to continue to grow but with small numbers for '26. Moving on, segments. If we take Industrial, that's our largest segment. We saw slight growth in the fourth quarter. I would say that we are still running this on a fairly flat level for Q3 and Q4. There's a lot of ups and downs in this segment. I am expecting this to normalize and that we gradually will start to see better and better growth number for the year. Security and Defense ended up on the same level or slightly below. This is a segment that I think -- I think I showed a slide, I think I don't remember where it was, but we had 92% growth in 2024, good growth in '23. And we see that '25 is some kind of flattening. But on the trend line, we still expect this to grow. I said that our expectation is that 30% year-over-year until 2030. That is still valid and our order book is supporting that growth in the quarters to come. However, we are a bit cautious on the first quarter of how much the delays that we see will affect us. Communication, this has been -- this was NOTE's second largest segment for many years. We have seen a decline. We see some hesitation from customers to invest. Now I see that some of our customers are indicating that this is a growing trend. For example, one of our customers, Waystream and other listed company, they have announced a few wins. We see that the order book to them is growing and growing. We also announced in the spring of '25 that we are taking over all the supply to them. So they discontinued their other source. So that's one customer that we expect to see good growth over for this year and the years to come. They have a very interesting product or product portfolio, I would say. Medtech, there's -- I said it before, there's just a few customers in this segment, maybe 5, 6 that are sizable. And the overall picture is fairly good. We see that we had some big deliveries in the Q1 and Q2 to one of them. And those may not be coming into this year. They might come later on. So we are seeing Medtech that we -- flat or slightly negative outlook for the year. But that's related to one customer, I would say. Greentech, finally, 22% for the year driven by a few customers, but especially, we introduced one new EV customer in the spring, and that is -- that customer alone is standing for at least half of the growth for this year. So the underlying demand in this segment is not that strong, even though it looks that way here. And this is, to me, I said it before. I mean, without charging stations, without energy savings and so on. So I think the Europe is struggling with the productification of the electrification. So we see it. I think the companies, the ones that we supply to and the companies outside in this segment, they are not doing fantastic. So there has to be -- there's no real incentive from the politicians to make this happening. There are a lot of talk, but there are very few initiatives at the moment. I think Sweden tried to put in a new EV car contribution, but that was really a lot of conditions for it. So we will see how much that effect that will have. If this should have a big effect, I think that it needs to be a broad, subsidized that covers more people than what this will do to have an effect. So we are -- yes, my outlook of Greentech is probably that it's flattish or slightly negative for the year. So when I look at this Industrial, Security and Defense and Communication is the areas that are -- that I see more positive outlooks from -- related to the others. And when I say more positive, I also see that the order book is supporting what I am saying. So that's a bit easy. If you look at these graphs, what I've said before, if you grow 10%, you should grow your EBIT margin with 0.5% to 1%. That's just the nature of fall-through or drop through or whatever concept you're using. So if you don't get that, you should be really careful with what you do. Then you can argue, if you want to win new customers, you might go down on margin and then that the relation might be broken. But generally speaking, that is how this industry is working. If you can push more business through your existing factories, that will give you a good fall-through. That's just how it is. So if you look at the first half of my 2 graphs, they are very closely linked together. Good growth, good profitability increase. Then we had the decline in sales, and that was mirrored with the decline in profitability. So that's what I said that I'm really pleased in that we have broken that relation. So we managed to grow our profitability without growing our top line. That is significantly harder than to grow your margin without -- or with good growth. So what I see is that when our growth is coming back as we expect, we also see a good profitability development. I said it before, I think we -- when I started at NOTE, we introduced that 15% of our sales increase should land on bottom line, maybe for the low-cost countries that number might be 12%, but in some generic terms. So that's what I mean with that. If you grow heavily, your profitability will grow. And that's basically what we are expecting that we will turn back into growth, and we will also see a good profitability development for the year. That's what we are targeting internally. I'm not saying so much about acquisitions, but there is always -- I normally say that we talked about -- we talk with a few different targets. Some are more active than others. I think that is still valid. We have a few very active dialogues. We have a few initial dialogues where we are assessing if we should go into more active discussions and so on. And my expectation is, as always, to close at least one acquisition for 2026. I think our balance sheet is supporting that. And I know that our owners is expecting that we should be active in this area. And the question is always, how do you find the right ones? That is what is challenging because there is a lot out there. What we are looking for is probably a slightly more sizable acquisition than small, small is about the same type of work to close them and then the additional value is lower. So I think Kasdon was one example of this that is a relatively small company but good profitability, so that added some extra things. But what we really like with Kasdon is that they have such strong customer pipeline. They're doing small parts to some customers, but now we're in dialogue to take over the volume parts that they don't do for other sites. So I think that -- yes, my expectation on this acquisition is really strong, not only for the acquisitions in such, but for the pipeline that they have generated. And I was in U.K. last week and participated in our sales meeting for U.K. and the pipeline looks really, really good. The pipeline means the customers that we're in dialogue with or negotiation with them and so on. So that was really positive. And a good part of that pipeline is coming from the old Kasdon customers or dialogues. So that's what we see. Yes. As you know, I can speak forever, but I will summarize now that we are expecting '26 to be a good year where we are seeing that our profitability is where we expect it to be. If we manage to get some growth on this, we will see good fall-through numbers for the year, good balance sheet, strong equity. We are prepared to take on more acquisitions and continue our investments in the future. We also see that our order backlog that we have struggled with a bit in the last year is starting to increase and is coming in more and more into our expectations. So good ending of '24 or '25. And I am very positive for '26. So that's basically where we stand. So I close there, and I open up for questions.

Should we, as always, start with questions from this room, and then I'll move on to the web. Anders?

Thank you, Johannes. So I was wondering first on the Security and Defense end market. I mean, in the quarter, you saw some deferrals driving 17% year-over-year drop in the segment. And is your view that this was pretty much exclusively deferrals? Or is there some sort of lumpiness in Kasdon that we should consider?

No. Kasdon came in just spot on to what they said. So this is purely due to our -- how should I say, the old Defense, Security and Defense customers.

Okay. And that, in turn, I mean, that's not driven by sort of customers' dual or multi-sourcing to a greater extent?

Not -- no, that is not to our knowledge, and we are pretty good to understand where -- who's producing because it's quite hard to -- if the product is hard to make for one, the customers have a tendency not to dual source, to be clear.

Yes, makes sense. And you're guiding kind of for softer start to '26 in this segment. What's your sort of visibility would you say on what customers are doing?

I would say that we have orders for the majority of '26 in this segment, in the Defense part of this segment, the Security part is slightly shorter, that is more normalized. But in the Defense area, we see for this year. If we would deliver what the customers have ordered, we will see very good growth for this year.

Okay. And finally, kind of -- we've discussed this before, but I mean, sort of normalized drop-through levels in terms of particularly Western Europe. I mean as you scale up Defense, how should one interpret that in terms of what the sustainable margin is for Western Europe going forward? And maybe a follow-up on that is, I mean, Rest of World has been the profitability driver in recent quarters, right, in terms of margin development. What's -- should that continue? Or will there be a historically normalized level between Rest of World and Western Europe in terms of profitability?

I think that if I look at the numbers, I backed up to this slide, if we say that we do, say, 8% in Rest of the World, I think that's good. That is a level. If we can continue to improve that with maybe 0.5% per year if we continue to grow, I would be really pleased. Western Europe, with the current mix we have, we can probably do a bit more than where we are. I mean in this quarter, I'm looking at Frida here, but I would say that we were doing probably 11.5% to 12% in OP in Western Europe in Q4. I don't have that number in front of me, but I would -- because I think we were roughly at 10% when -- after 3 quarters, so it should be in that range. If I -- yes, yes. Good. Then my mathematic skills were okay, yes. Now so if we continue with the mix, I think there is no reason why Western Europe should not continue to deliver good numbers. I think it's fair to say that Rest of the World should have lower OP because we have lower margin of the material. So there is much more material in the sales in that region. So I think the relation, say that if we can do 11% on Western Europe and 8% to 9% on Rest of the World, I would -- I think that would be a good assumption. If we would get all the backlog out in this year on -- in Western Europe, yes, I think that we can do even better. Very hard to say because it's a lot of ifs and buts, if I stand here and promise something, but my expectation is that we will not decline on operating profit this year compared to '25 to be.

Good questions already. Just to follow up on the backlog here, which tends to be a pretty good indicator, as you said, of next quarter sales and also sort of next 2 quarter sales. In relation to the deferrals you mentioned in Security and Defense, is the backlog positively impacted by new orders coming in, in Defense? And it's just a delivery issue for sales on top line or from Defense in Q1?

Yes. Our order backlog is growing by the quarter and by the month. So we see the same as our customers are seeing. But we have had issues to get a few of these programs to run smoothly, if I put it like that. We should also remember that I think Q4 this -- in '25 was our second best quarter if I -- in actual terms. But Q4 last year was extraordinarily strong. So it's not, by definition, a weak quarter. So if we could remain -- but we're still unhappy with what we delivered. We had significantly higher orders than we managed to get out.

And could you just elaborate on the other drivers of the order backlog improvement in Q4 was and how much was driven by Defense?

I don't have that number, but I would say that Defense grew more than the other areas, but I don't have the number. Yes. Go ahead, Anders.

If no one else, just two more questions. So firstly, in terms of your view of consolidation in the industry, which I agree with, I mean how are you working to ensure that you're not -- and you will not overpay for targets and kind of integrate them in a sustainable, good way. And to exemplify it, could you maybe elaborate a bit on how you're working with Kasdon in terms of integrating it into NOTE and Western Europe?

I will answer this question in 2 ways. I think the first question, I think there is a slight increase in multiples in the industry. I think that is fair to say. I think if we see the last acquisitions that has been made and if you look at Kitron's acquisition of DeltaNordic, quite high multiple, depending on how you look at it. If you look at 1 or 2 years ahead, maybe not so high, but on current performance. So there is -- but there is also, I would say, a trend line between if it's an industry or a company that are supplying into, say, industrial customers, maybe those multiples are not extending that much if it's into the Security and Defense area. Yes, those multiples are going up. So there is always a potential that you overpay. And the tricky part is always to see how sustainable is the business that is currently in the target because you don't know the customers because you haven't worked with them. The customers that we have internally at NOTE that we have had for 5, 10, 15, 20 years, we have a pretty good idea where they are heading. But if you acquire something, you have like 2 months of due diligence to get to learn them. And then it's very hard to say, okay, did we really understand what happens in the -- beyond 1 or 2 years away from today. So yes, that is always a risk. And we try to be very selective, especially when it comes to assessing the customer side at our targets. The rest, I think, you can fix. But if you acquire something that start to decline in top line, that's much trickier to fix. So the second part of the question is that what we do when we acquired like Kasdon is that we try to get to know their customers. Me and our VP of U.K., we are visiting the customers. We try to -- we invite them. So we want to get to learn the customers' customers. That's the biggest and most important integration that we can do. That's what we do. And I think that is something that we have learned over time that the value of doing this is significant. So if we fail to do that, that's when we are having problems with acquisitions. If we don't get to learn the customers, that's when we're failing. The rest, I mean we are trying to buy companies that are doing well. We try to buy companies that have a profitability that is fairly much aligned with us. Kasdon was doing better. So we don't -- we're not going to push over our way of working into their way of working because they do really good internally. So in this case, we do a very -- what can I call it, low intense integration because we want them to continue as is in many ways. We just want to get to learn the customers and try to see, can we get more out of them from -- by offering the full NOTE offering. Is that answering your questions?

Yes, absolutely.

Any other questions in the room? Otherwise, we move on to -- from the web. From [ Johan Hiltner ]. You mentioned that delays in Defense were due to products not going through the test phase. Were you referring to test of products you make? Or are you referring to other products in the value chain that your customer needs to get through test before they order? No, this was related purely to our internal production. We don't comment on our customers' ability to get them out on the market when we have delivered. So this is products that we are starting up internally that we have 2 high errors in the test system, and then we want to -- the customer wants to upgrade the systems rather than to have to increase the test content, if you put it like that. Then we have from [ Torbjorn at DNB. ] Are you -- are the defense solely related to testing? Or are you also seeing the bottlenecks else in the production phases? And is this concentrated among one or a few customers or more broadly across defense programs? I will say that this is -- first, I will say that we don't have any bottlenecks when it comes to capacity of producing. I think we have overcapacity in our defense producing facilities. We can do a lot more. We have prepared ourselves to meet the demand that we see 3, 4 quarters away from today. So we can probably do 50% or more in the Security and Defense area from a capacity point of view. So that, I don't see any problem whatsoever on. So then the second question is, it's a few customers, it is a few programs. It's not all products. It's a few other programs that we make that we have a significantly reduced output due to this. But we still expect to deliver these orders in the near future. So again, delays, not lost sales. Going over to [ Henning ]. How do you currently evaluate the Waystream partnership due to the weak financials, apparently poor sales performance, and the possible risk for the Lund plant. Good question. Yes, Waystream is a small company, and we are working together with them to ensure that we do -- we have the optimal capital allocation to run this business as efficiently as we can. But we are seeing upon them as a very -- they have very good products. And I think the position of the market is strong. So we are also seeing that their order book is growing in value. So we're not that concerned. They're still making money. They're still making positive cash flows. And we see the order book for them is increasing in a good way. So not that afraid at the moment, and we'll evaluate the partnership. Good, I like customers that they're moving production back from China to Sweden and are very clear on that. So from that respect, I really think that they are leading the way in the reshoring that we have talked about a lot. How large CapEx investment should we expect in 2026? When it comes to equipment, machines and others, I think we will invest somewhere in the range of SEK 100 million to SEK 125 million, then there will be some building investments that are coming on top of that. I don't have that number in my head, but in, say, another SEK 20 million or so, give or take. Then from [ Alexander. ] Could you please elaborate a bit about Kasdon's profitability given that it's much higher than your organic profitability? Yes, we don't go out with specific numbers. But what we see is that Kasdon is running a lot of their production in what I call single piece flow or one piece flow. That means that they have a production setup that is basically adjusted for customers with very small series, and they have a very efficient way of producing this 1 to 5 board series. And that is what is driving their profitability because they are very good in something that a lot of companies are not that good and many of our peers wants to make larger series. And then you have a production process that is set up for, say, 100-plus boards in series. And here, we do 1 to 5 is the normal batch size. So they have adopted to that way, and they have -- so they have a few lines that are running volume products, and they have a few lines that are running small series, and their way of setting this factor up is very well mirroring their demand, and that's why they are performing so well and they're on top of that. They are really efficient in what they do, have a high technical competence. So they have a lot of customers evaluating them or putting a high value on the offering that they do. I would not say that we overprice. I would say that we are aligned with others, but we are significantly more efficient than what we would have been in if we would have done the same products in some other of our factories. So they're simply doing it very good. Question from Johan. Was Kasdon consolidated from October 21, the date the transaction closed? Is Kasdon included in the order backlog comparison with the prior year? First question, I think we consolidated Kasdon from October 1. So we had them in the full quarter. And secondly, I would say no, we were looking like-for-like. I think we put in the report, that means that Kasdon is not included in the order backlog, or they're included in order backlog, not in the 11% up that we see. Then one from Johan. How are rising copper pricing affecting your margins? Are you absorbing the increase or passing it through to clients? We are running most of our customers with what we call open books. That means that any price increases we see on the raw material, we will pass on to our customers. That is how this equation is working. And the same goes when the price goes down that we pass those over to the customers as well. So we will pass most of it over to our customers. Then I have one from [ Grund. ] Given your investment in Torsby, when do you think that facility will approach full utilization? I would say, hopefully, sooner than later, but we have doubled the capacity. I would say that we are doing around SEK 1 billion in sales from the site, then we can probably do SEK 2 billion to SEK 2.5 billion at the moment if we just look at the facility's ability to deliver. That -- our plan is that it should take at least 5 years until we're there. But when we extended the site in 2021, we expected that to last for 5 years, and we will run out of space in 2 years, but that was very strong 2 years there in '21 and '22. So I don't have an answer. I hope that we will extend it again. We bought some land in the acquisition as well. So we can probably double the site from where we are today. But when we are there, I would gladly do that as well. But we have a lot of trees as well at the moment. No, [indiscernible], but no, we think that we will grow into the site gradually over the coming years. And it's also -- I mean, space is a very interesting measurement in what capacity you have because normally, you run a lot of processes in a single shift. Often, you run your machines that are expensive. Those you run in 2 or 3 shifts. But you also run your assembly in 1 shift, in some other occasions, you run them in 2 shifts. So you can say that you can often double your output just by adding a full shift. So it's very clear, space is a very bad measure of that. But then again, I mean the cost of square meters are often lower than to run, for example, in night shift. So it's often more efficiently or more cost efficient to extend the building rather than to run full night shifts. So there's also a balance. But I would say that we're not expecting to run out of space in Torsby the next 5 years, at least, if I put it like that. But we are expecting to grow into the site very well in the coming, say, 2 to 3 years at least. We are expecting good growth for this year. We're expecting even better the years to come. And how should I say, the customers' feedback is very positive upon this extension. That was my last question I have here. So if there's no more questions from the room, I would, with a few closing remarks, say that we -- I think the market is looking better and better. I think we see that the demand is slowly but gradually coming back. There are, as always, some geopolitical disturbances around, but I mean, those we have learned to live with as some -- I think I read that in the [ Dagens Industri ] a few days ago that, that is the new normal. So let's just cope with it as best as we can and build robust processes to overcome the bottlenecks of this. I think what we will continue to do is to work with our flexibility, work with our operational performance, continue to grow relations with customers, and we are expecting this year to be a good step stone for the future to come. And we are also showing here that we continue with our investment program with extending our capacity for the volumes that we are expecting to come. I also think that the consolidation of the industry will continue, and we have good -- or should I say, good hopes that we will do at least one more acquisition for the year. So that's what we see. If there's not any more questions, I thank everyone for coming. I think it's a new time record with all these questions, but I like them. So continue with submitting them and ask them. So thank you for coming, and thank you for listening.