Odfjell SE (ODF) Q4 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Good morning again, everyone. First and foremost, I apologize for this delay, which is due to some technical issues here at the Continental Hotel in Oslo. We are today presenting our fourth quarter results and the preliminary full year results in front of a live audience here in Oslo. And I'm very pleased to welcome our loyal shareholders, the banks, we have the analysts here, and also the journalists. A hearty welcome to all of you. The presentation today follows a traditional agenda. I will take you quickly through the highlights, and then my colleague, Terje Iversen, will take you through our financial performance, and I will summarize this presentation with an operational review and also a market update and our prospects for the future. Then turning to the highlights. We are once again very happy that we delivered a quarter where we had no serious incidents in our fleet. We delivered time charter earnings of USD 168 million, and this compares to USD 173 million in the previous quarter. Time charter earnings per day were down less than 1%. We produced USD 27,978 in the fourth quarter, and this compares to USD 28,174 in the third quarter. The EBIT was USD 53 million, this compares to USD 59 million, and the net result contribution from Odfjell Terminals was USD 1.8 million versus USD 2.6 million in the previous quarter. We had a net result of USD 38 million. This compares to USD 43 million in the previous quarter. And adjusted for one-off items, we had USD 38 million versus USD 42 million. We also, during the quarter, launched the world's first operational green corridor between Brazil and Europe. This corridor is self-funded, and we did it to accelerate the implementation of biofuel in deep sea shipping. I will come back to that later in my presentation. We also concluded contracts for 2 more super-segregators. They will be delivered in '28 and '29. And finally, the Board approved a dividend of USD 0.48 -- USD 0.50 -- USD 0.48 per share on our net adjusted result for the second half of '25. If we look at the year in total, we had a financial result of USD 155 million. And the total dividends for the year is USD 0.98, which then amounts to USD 78 million. In total, during the year, we ordered 4 newbuildings on time charter. And we also launched in the last quarter of last year, then we formalized the cooperation with our Japanese tonnage providers. And now we, in total, have 22 newbuildings on order, of which 10 will be delivered in 2026. I will also come back to that later in my presentation. The AER was 6.8% through the year, and that is a 4.2% improvement compared to 2024. The outlook, we expect a slight reduction in our net result -- underlying net result compared to the fourth quarter. And by that, I give the word to Terje, who will take you through our financial performance. Thank you.

Thank you, Harald, and good morning to all of you. I will, as usual, start with the income statement for this quarter. As Harald mentioned, we delivered a time charter earnings of USD 168 million this quarter, which is 3% down compared to the third quarter. Looking behind the figures, we saw that the time charter rate per day was quite unchanged compared to the third quarter and also the freight rate per tonne was quite at the same level as in the third quarter. So actually, the reduction in time charter earnings had mainly to do with fewer commercial days in the fourth quarter compared to the third quarter. On time charter expenses, that ended at USD 7.4 million, slightly down compared to the third quarter, while we saw that operating expenses ended at USD 50.2 million, very stable compared to previous quarter. While share of net result from associates and joint ventures ended at USD 1.8 million compared to USD 2.6 million. G&A increased somewhat from USD 20 million to USD 23.5 million. That is -- a few reasons for that. One is that we had the high activity this quarter with also higher legal expenses. We also had some year-end adjustment of provisions for short-term incentive programs for the employees, and we also had some adjustment on pension costs this quarter, leading to somewhat higher G&A this quarter compared to what you should expect in the normal quarter. That leads to an EBITDA of USD 88.9 million. Depreciation, USD 36.3 million, slightly down compared to third quarter. Main reason being that we sold one vessel in the end of last year and also that we had some tax credits from some dry-docking activities in Brazil that we took advantage of in the fourth quarter that reduced our depreciation in that quarter. That leaves an EBIT of USD 52.6 million compared to USD 59 million. Net interest expenses decreased to USD 13.9 million compared to USD 15.5 million. Main reason being that we have is slightly a reduction in our debt. We have better margins on our loan and also a lower SOFR this quarter than in the previous quarters. Then other financial items and taxes, we are then delivering a net result of USD 38 million, which is down USD 5 million compared to last quarter. And also adjusting for non-recurring items being very limited, we ended then with a net result also adjusted at USD 38 million in the fourth quarter. Looking at time charter earnings compared to the cash breakeven, we see that time charter earnings per day ended at around USD 28,000 this quarter, slightly down from the previous quarter, as mentioned. Looking at cash breakeven in the fourth quarter, we ended at USD 21,817 compared to just about USD 22,000 in the third quarter. And looking at the 12 months rolling average, we are then close to USD 23,000 in cash breakeven. Decrease this quarter, mainly driven by lower dry-docking activity than in the previous quarter and also slightly lower interest expenses. So we have a difference between the time charter earnings and the cash breakeven around USD 5,000 per day. And looking at our time charter fleet that also corresponds very much to the same figure, looking at the 2025 figures. And looking at the same long-term time charter vessels, the total in 2025, we delivered a net result for these vessels around USD 28 million in 2025. Going forward, we expect slight improvement in the cash breakeven to be around USD 22,200 in average for 2026. The balance sheet, not that much to report on. We saw a slight decrease in total values, ships and newbuilding contracts due to the sale of Bow Cedar and, of course, also depreciations. It's also worth noticing that we are increasing the investments in associates and joint ventures for USD 173 million to USD 183 million, main reason being the new joint venture, Odfjell Hakata Maritime and also the working capital that we are injecting into that joint venture or have been injected during the quarter. Cash and cash equivalents increased somewhat to USD 149 million, end of 2025. And if we include undrawn loan facilities, we have available cash of around USD 344 million end of 2025. Equity increased with USD 36 million being the comprehensive income for the quarter, and we are close to USD 1 billion in book equity. And compared to a total asset of around USD 2 billion, we are then close to 50% book equity per end of 2025. On the debt side, we are continuing to reduce our debt, and we did an extraordinary debt repayment of USD 30 million in the fourth quarter. Cash flow. We had quite strong cash flow, I would say, this quarter, ending at USD 74 million, up compared to the third quarter. Main reason being that we have stable working capital this quarter, while we had an increase of the working capital in the third quarter that impacted the operational cash flow. Cash flow from investing activities ended at negative USD 6.4 million, positive, of course, impacted by the sale of Bow Cedar with USD 9.8 million and positively impacting the cash flow from investing activities in the quarter. On the financing side, we are continuing to reduce debt, as mentioned, and we did this extraordinary debt repayment, leading to negative cash flow from financing of USD 54.9 million in the quarter. And in total, we are then ending with USD 12.7 million in positive cash flow -- change in cash during this fourth quarter. Looking at the more long-term development on the free cash flow, free cash flow being the cash that is available for debt service and equity. We see that we continue to deliver a quite strong free cash flow and this quarter ended with a free cash flow of USD 68 million compared to USD 42 million in the third quarter. And again, of course, positively impacted by the sale of this vessel and also negative impacted by the joint venture working capital that we injected in this quarter. And looking at the 12 months rolling free cash flow, we are around USD 58.2 million. And if you adjust for debt repayments related to right-of-use of assets, we are around USD 45.6 million in the fourth quarter. This is a bit busy slide. I will take you through it. Looking at the charts at the top, this is showing the scheduled repayments of interest-bearing debt per end of 2025. As you can see, we have some debt repayments in the first quarter 2026. That has been taken care of already with a new financing facility that we are drawing on these days. So except for that, we have very limited debt repayments in excess of ordinary installments during the coming years until end of 2026, where we have -- 2027, we have a small balloon that we, of course, will be capable of taking care of. Then on the middle of this, we have a chart showing the expected development of interest-bearing debt. As you can see, we are around USD 709 million interest-bearing debt end of fourth quarter. We expect a slight increase in that figure during 2026 based on taking delivery of one newbuilding and also Bow Hercules. So we are drawing new debt on these vessels. And then, of course, we are also including ordinary repayments installments here. But also then looking further into the future, we expect interest-bearing debt to continue to decline into '27 and '28. Then on the bottom here, we have included what is expected or projected booked debt related to right-of-use assets. As we have talked about, we have around 20 vessels that are going to be delivered on long-term time charters in the coming years. And here we are projecting what will -- how will the balance sheet look when these are being delivered to the company. So end of 2025, we had USD 226 million in so-called debts related to right-of-use assets. When we are taking 9 new vessels into our operations in 2026, that amount will increase to around USD 384 million and increase further to USD 587 million then in year-end 2027 before it's stabilizing. Then we have taken delivery of all the new 20 vessels on new long-term time charters and the debt or the kind of the capital element of that commitment have then been included in this forecast. This is summarizing the CapEx going forward and the time charter commitments. We have talked about Bow Hercules already has been taken into our books end of start of this year. We acquired that vessel with cash, but it will be then financed with a new bank facility that we are drawing on these days. We have 2 other newbuildings on order that will be delivered in '26 and '27, summarizing to USD 82.3 million. And except for that, we have done these new time charter vessels that are going to be delivered in the coming years. And here, we are showing at the bottom this chart or this table, showing what are the time charter commitments that we have on our -- we will take into account on our balance sheet going forward and also what will be the nominal time charter rates to be paid under these time charters. So if we summarize the time charters to be paid for these 20 vessels, we are at around USD 1.1 billion for these -- for the next 7-8 years in total for these 20 vessels that has not been delivered yet. On our balance sheet, this will be booked as right-of-use assets, and we will then include USD 237 million in 2026 as new right-of-use assets, and that will summarize in total for these vessels to 625 during the next 2 years. As we have mentioned a few times before, these vessels, these 20 vessels, that accounts for 40% of the current order book in our core segment. Then I'll leave the word to you again, Harald.

Thank you. Then I will continue with an operational review. And I think the big headline here is a stable development. We have stable volumes, and we also have stable contract coverage. The slight reduction that we see in the fourth quarter is simply a consequence of 139 fewer commercial days. But all in all, I would say, a very stable development. If we look at time charter earnings, as mentioned, we are also seeing stable development in our Odfix index, and that is not -- it's not totally comparable to the Clarksons index because the Odfix index is showing a quarterly average, while the Clarksons index is showing the difference between the first day of the month and the last -- of the quarter and the last day of the quarter. So the 4.2% increase that we see in the Clarksons index is reflecting the uptick that we saw towards the end of the quarter. When we look at the volumes, we see a slight increase in specialty chemicals, which is kind of the bread and butter for our activities. That's where we want to be, and that's the most sophisticated and difficult chemicals to carry. We saw a small increase in those volumes. We saw stable commodity volumes. Those are the easy chemicals, large volumes and relatively easy to carry. And then in our book, we saw a slight decrease when it comes to the Vegoils, which is less demanding cargoes to carry. And we had a stable development when it comes to CPP. CPP in Odfjell is typically utilized for repositioning of our ships, and it's also utilized for handling waiting time for vessels that are waiting to be implemented in the new trade. So all in all, a stable development. Turning to sustainability and our carbon index. We saw an average both for the quarter and for the year in total of an AER of 6.8. And we are well satisfied with that. It's 4.2%, I think, lower than 2024. But I think the main observation here is that this curve is starting to flatten out. You cannot energy efficiency yourself to 0. So we have implemented several projects when it comes to operational improvements. We have done several improvements when it comes to technical improvements and we are now turning to biofuel as the third leg of our drive to achieve net-zero. In December, we launched the first operational green corridor in the world between Brazil and Europe. And first, what is a green corridor? A green corridor is simply a trade lane where we are utilizing greener fuels. And then secondly, why did we choose this trade lane? First, Brazil is the second largest producer of biofuel in the world, second only to the U.S. And also, Norway has an MOU with Brazil, where the focus is on developing a green corridor. And secondly, we chose Europe as the ending point simply because that would allow us to utilize the fuel EU maritime. So that is the background for choosing Brazil and Europe as -- for the purpose of this corridor. The voyage is approximately 5,000 nautical mines. It takes 40 days to conduct that voyage, and we expect to have in average, approximately one voyage per month. This corridor was started already in November, and we are now at the fourth voyage with that corridor being implemented. We are dedicated to continue this trade. But of course, if we want to make this trade greener, we will have to cooperate with all the other stakeholders in the trade to make that happen. And I'm very pleased to see that we have very constructive and good dialogues with all the stakeholders involved. We have positive responses for the ports where we look at making the port rotations more efficient. We have positive dialogues with our customers to see whether we can further utilize the ships that are employed in this trade. And we also have very positive feedback from the governments, both in Brazil, in Europe and in Norway. So we are quite confident that this is something that can be developed further. We also see that other ports around the world are contacting us and asking whether we can do something similar in their areas of the world. This is something that we are considering. But first and foremost, we want to get this corridor in place and further develop it. We also are proud that we managed through this initiative, we managed to establish the first continuous supply of biofuel out of Rio Grande because of our offtake agreement. They now have a continuous supply of fuel from that port, and we are in dialogue with other ports in Brazil to see whether the same can be achieved there. So plenty of positive effects of this initiative. Turning to our Tank Terminals. That is more stable business, I would say. We had an occupancy rate of 96% in the fourth quarter, which is more or less the same as we had throughout 2025. The consolidated EBITDA was USD 7.7 million (sic) [ USD 7.9 million ], and this is down USD 1.3 million compared to the third quarter. Net result for the fourth quarter was at USD 1 million, and this compares to adjusted net result of USD 1.5 million. For the full year, the terminal reported a consolidated net loss of USD 1.6 million. And on an adjusted basis, the net result was USD 9.1 million. The outlook is stable. And when we then turn to the expansion projects, we have had several successful expansion projects throughout the years, and we have now recently completed Tankpit-Q at our Noord Natie terminal in Antwerp, and we are now carrying on with Tankpit-S, which will add 18 duplex steel tanks to the capacity in Antwerp. So a very solid development on that terminal. In Korea, at the Ulsan terminal, we also have an expansion projects ongoing, the so-called E5 expansion, where we are building almost 90,000 cubic meters of new capacity. So a lot of positive developments going on, on the terminal side with an underlying extremely stable business that is supporting this development. Then we turn to the market update and our prospects for the future, starting with the development in the spot rates. What we see here is that we saw a positive development west of Suez with rates going up, particularly towards the end of the quarter. And we also saw a stabilizing development in east of Suez with a smaller uptick towards the end of the quarter. But all in all, there is positive momentum or there was positive momentum in the markets. Turning to the swing tonnage. The swing tonnage is now at absolute minimum levels. I think what's left on the swing tonnage side is, of course, those vessels that are always trading with chemicals like Odfjell's 6 coated vessels -- coated MRs, they are only employed in chemicals. And then there is a portion of vessels that are trading chemicals in one direction and then CPP in the opposite direction. Those vessels are still doing that business. But the remaining vessels, those that are swinging 100% back and forth, it's my impression that all of them are gone. And the reason for that is seen on your left-hand side, where we see that the MR rates have seen a very positive development over actually the past year. Looking at the order book. As we've said before, the order book stands at 22% of the total sailing fleet, and Odfjell has a 14% share of that order book. Looking at the 2 most important segments, the medium stainless steel and the super-segregators, we see that the majority of the fleet increase is coming in that segment. When we look at the super-segregators, where Odfjell has a 40% market share, here, we see a relatively flat development and what's being built is mainly replacement tonnage for super-segregators being phased out. And most of the vessels that are being phased out is now the so-called Kvaerner Class, originally 24 vessels that was built between '93 and 2012, and those vessels are slowly and gradually being phased out. So we will see an increase on the medium segment, and we will see a flat development in the super-segregator segment. If we then turn to Odfjell's order book specifically, we have 22 vessels on order, 20 stainless steel vessels and 2 coated MRs coated with MarineLINE. They will deliver between now and 2029. There are 10 vessels being delivered this year, 9 vessels being delivered next year and then 2 vessels in '28, and one vessel in '29. Of those vessels, there are 25,000 tonners. There are 10 super-segregators and there are the 2 mentioned MarineLINE coated MRs. We also have a balance of 12 vessels, and those 12 vessels are vessels that either will complete their time charter arrangement with us or they will reach an age of 25, 27.5 or 30 years of age, which means that we have the ability or the opportunity to consider lifetime extension programs. And that means that of the 22 vessels, 12 vessels can balance the development of our fleet. And we will end up in 2030 with somewhere between 92 and 80 vessels in our fleet. Then turning to the outlook. As we all know, we have seen quite significant market disruptions during the year, and those are rooted in geopolitical events. They are rooted in tariff uncertainties, and they are rooted in consequences of that being customers testing out new trades, new customers and new ways of trading and selling their volumes. However, volumes have nevertheless been relatively stable, but we have seen some new and interesting opportunities in the wake of all this turbulence that we have observed. The chemical tanker market is very closely connected to world GDP. And in 2026, the expectation is a world GDP growth of 3.3%. The Red Sea, we originally saw some early signs that the compliant fleet would return to transiting the Red Sea. Then we had the container operator that started transiting in December. We had another container operator who ceased trading through the Red Sea in -- also in December. We had Houthis that were repeating their threats against the civilian merchant shipping. And now we have the situation in Iran. And the sum of that is that we are not as optimistic as we were 6 to 8 weeks ago, and we expect that it will still take some time before we can sail through the Red Sea. When it comes to the fleet development, we've been through that. There will be an increase in the fleet over the next 12 to 18 months, particularly within the medium stainless steel segment. And we also see that the crackdown on the shadow fleet is impacting crude oil earnings and CPP earnings. We have lately seen that the U.S. has taken a significantly tougher stance against the shadow fleet vessels. We've seen France taking action against shadow fleet vessels. We have seen Germany taking action against shadow fleet vessels. And this is, of course, impacting the flow of sanctioned oil, which is again impacting the flow of unsanctioned oil. So all in all, we anticipate that the positive momentum due to the crackdown on the shadow fleet will continue during the first 6 months this year. So all in all, we expect an upswing on the chemical trade. We expect a positive development in world GDP. We do not foresee any more consequences of all those tariff discussions. There will be an increase in our fleet -- in the chemical tanker fleet this year, and we expect the swing tonnage to remain outside our business. So to summarize this presentation, we delivered a net result of USD 38 million, this compares to USD 43 million in the third quarter. On the tanker side, we saw a very small reduction in time charter earnings per day, and we had slightly fewer days, which gave a small reduction in our aggregated time charter earnings. The small reduction in total volumes is due to fewer commercial days. And when it comes to contract renewals, we -- this is not scientific business to compare one contract with another. But all in all, we saw a slight decrease in the contracts that were renewed during the fourth quarter, and that was approximately 25% of our total contract volumes. On the terminal side, we had a modest decline in activity in the fourth quarter. But all in all, this is a very stable business, and we expect it to be stable also going forward. We saw a strengthening of freight rates, spot rates towards the end of the fourth quarter. And -- it's -- the market is not easy to predict these days, but we haven't seen that market going down at least since New Year. Slight increase in activity. And as mentioned, the swing tonnage is not at all impacting our business these days. So all in all, we expect the first quarter to show underlying results that are slightly below what we saw in the fourth quarter. And that concludes our presentation, and we are now open for questions from the audience and also questions being submitted through the webcast.

We'll start with any questions from the audience here. If not, we will proceed with the questions we've received online. And of course, feel free to raise your hands if you have a question afterwards. So the first question we have received is on the COA renewals, and I'm just reading the question here. You mentioned an active quarter on COA renewals. How many COAs were renewed and at what renewal rate? How did these compare to third quarter '25 renewal rates?

I don't have the exact number of contracts that were renewed in the fourth quarter. But I would anticipate that we are somewhere between 15 and 25 contracts. And we had a portion that were renewed unchanged in line with what was agreed in the contract 1 year ago. We have also had renewals where we have seen reductions above 5%, I would say. And then we have some contracts where we had smaller reductions. It's not easy to compare one contract year with the previous contract year because normally, there is an adjustment to the ports being called. There are adjustments to the volumes and so on. And therefore, it's not exact science to compare one contract year with the previous contract year. But all in all, I think it's fair to say that we've seen a slight decrease in our average freight rate for the contracts that have been renewed.

Thank you. So the next question is on the supply side. And the question is, there are many chemical ships over 25 years of age. What is your outlook on recycling this year? And I guess we showed some figures on that on the order book side, but if you would like to comment some more.

When it comes to the recycling decision, there is a balance between what the ships are earning and what the recycling price is. And that calculation has to be positive before a shipowner makes the decision to recycle a ship. And the decision points, they will come at the age of 25, where the ship is going through dry dock and then the shipowner has to make a decision, do I take the ship through the dry dock or do I recycle. The next decision point -- and then you have to have kind of a 2.5-year future because the next dry dock is coming at 27.5, and that is when you have to make the second decision whether you will take this vessel through dry dock or not. And then the third -- and the third decision point is normally at 30 years, and that's where we see most of the European built chemical tankers being recycled. So I think many shipowners with aging tonnage, they make the calculation, and I say that it's still more money to be earned if we postpone recycling. And I think that is why we see so little -- surprisingly little recycling. I hope that answered the question.

Yes. The next one is on the demand side. And the question is, are there indicators other than GDP, you think, closely follow your performance? So I guess, I don't know if this is referring to trade flows or things like that, but...

Yes. I think the most important denominator is world GDP, and that is kind of the long-term indicator for where chemical tankers are heading. And the reason for that is simply the fact that 96% of the world's commercial goods, they need liquid chemicals to be produced. So the more goods that are being sold, the more chemicals are needed in the production process. So that link is, I think, very clear. I think the second indicator, which is where we probably have to add a 6-month delay or something is development on the CPP side, the MR market. When the MR market is going up, typically, it drags out the swing tonnage and then slowly, slowly, the chemical tankers are following suit. But there is typically -- there is a delay in this development. I would say that the first segment that will experience that rates are going up are the medium-sized vessels with shorter voyages, which means that they are starting a new voyage earlier than the large vessels. They will see the upswing first. And then the super-segregators, which typically have voyages with 2 to 3 months of duration, they will have a slower -- it will have a slower impact on that segment. And that impact is also delayed because 50% of the cargo is already with contract rates that were maybe agreed 1 year ago. So it depends on the segment, how fast you will see a correlation between MRs and chemical tankers.

Thank you. We have a few more questions here coming in. The next one is regarding the Red Sea. And the question is, do you think that the -- it says the Red Sea, but I guess a Red Sea reopening would be a net positive or negative for our performance?

You tell me. I think -- and we don't know the exact answer, but it has been indicated that the reopening of the Red Sea will add somewhere between -- sorry, 1% and 2% of capacity to the world's chemical tanker fleet. And that is, of course, a capacity addition, and it should have a negative impact on earnings. But then again, it will also boost the trades between Europe and the Middle East and to some extent, Asia because it's more easy to transport products that way. So whether you will have a 1% to 2% effect that I think the effect will be smaller than that. And for many freights, it is an advantage that passage is being reopened.

Thank you. So now for the last question from the online Q&A here. With our 10 new deliveries in 2026, bringing tonnage into a market with many ships and minimal recycling, on what routes do you plan to deploy the ships?

Good question. As mentioned, we have 10 vessels being delivered throughout the year. Those are being spread evenly through the year, meaning that, we, on average, have more or less one vessel per month. In total, for 2026, this will add 12% of added commercial days to our fleet. And those who can calculate will see that, that means that we will also have to add some approximately 1.5 million tonnes of additional cargo. All of those vessels are already scheduled into our fleet. We have a plan for every single commercial day. So that project or that fleet implementation is well taken care of.

Okay. Thank you. And we have one questioner. Yes. Just let me hand you the mic so that people online can hear you.

[Indiscernible] SEB. You say that you're negotiating contracts a little bit down.

Sorry, I didn't hear...

You said that you're negotiating new contracts or renewing contracts a little bit softer. But mainly, are you extending durations? Are you still addressing terms, improving terms? Because I mean, even if rates go down a little bit, customers are still paying a lot better than they've done for maybe 15 years or something.

It's correct. The rates are still at acceptable levels, I would say, even if we see a slight decline in freight rates. And rates also has to be seen in combination with all the other terms in our contracts. So right now, I think most of the chemical producers in the world are losing money. So there is an extremely strong focus on the freight rate itself, and I would say less focus on other terms in the contract. Did that answer your question?

What about duration?

Duration is a good question. I would say that the majority of the contract customers are trying to achieve the similar freight rates as their competitors. And therefore, there is a certain reluctance to locking in the freight over longer periods. So typically, there are 1-year contracts, but there are options to extend those contracts into the future. But a few contracts have a clear duration longer than 1-year. And that connects to competition between the producers. But then again, some of these -- not some, many of those contracts that are with us have been with us for decades. So there is a kind of an interdependence on this logistics chain.

One more question there.

This is [indiscernible] from DNB Carnegie. Rates are obviously, strong in a historical context, but still far below the '23-'24 highs. And despite sort of swing tonnage being at the historical low levels that you pointed out during our presentation. What do you really see as the missing part for the market to really spark to the upside at the current state?

What are the...

What's sort of the missing part in the market to really spark rates back to '23-'24 levels?

I would say that what I'm missing today is the spillover effect from crude and CPP into chemical tankers. I'm surprised that we haven't seen that spillover already when you see the crackdown on the shadow fleet and the effects that has had on the large tanker vessels. And then you could say that -- well, the swing tonnage is so long. So there are not any swing vessels left to swing over. But then there would be an expectation that the kind of the most suitable chemical tankers would start to swing into CPP. So I think in a way, what we are waiting for is the effect of this significant impact that we see on the large tanker vessels. And also, I could also add to that, that there is a certain imbalance in how the chemical tanker fleet is distributed around the world right now. You see that there has been an upswing in west of Suez, and that is, of course, because there is less tonnage available west of Suez. And then due to all the noise from the tariffs and geopolitics and so on, we've seen an increase of tonnage east of Suez and that is having an impact, particularly on the exports out of the Middle East.

Okay. Any other questions? No. Then that concludes our Q&A, and thank you for coming here today, and thank you for everyone listening online.

Absolutely. Thank you for coming. That is very much appreciated. Thank you.