OHB SE (OHB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everybody, for OHB's Q1 Earnings 2023 numbers. Welcome, everybody, to the analyst conference. I hope you have been able to download the documents. I'm together with Kurt; and Lutz; and Martina. And we would like to walk you through our slides. And then of course, we are ready for a Q&A session. So I think it was a solid start into 2023. And I may just start with a few slides. Joint structure of the group, nothing really has changed on this slide. The only change that I see is that we have changed the name of a company within Lutz's digital division company, which was called OHB Cosmos International, is now called OHB Orbital Access. Same business, just a different name, because I think it shows better what we are trying to do and what we are doing at this small entity. Other than that, I don't think there are any changes to the fundamental setup of the group. Strategy as well. So OHB 2025 strategy is getting closer and closer. It's just 2 years ahead of us. But a couple of weeks ago -- or actually, 2 weeks ago, we had a review of that, and I guess it's pretty much the same that at least will be in terms of the scope. Of course, I think what is important in the scope is that we see ourselves as an end-to-end space system provider. I think what is obviously important is that the downstream portfolio is growing and doing well. We'll come to that later. Satellites, of course, are the main business. Full launch is something that we are working on. There has been some little confusion publishing of the '22 results about our role in [indiscernible]. I think we'll get to that as well if we talk the numbers, but we're very much enthusiastic about RFA. We think we do very good progress there. The other points, I guess, if I look to the financials, the goals are still the same, 8% EBIT is our goal. And I'm sure we'll talk about the numbers in a little bit in detail. So what are the highlights of the last quarter? Two important contracts have been signed by OHB Italy. One very important competition. Comet Interceptor was one contract value, EUR 117 million. [indiscernible] our competition, we're very Happy to be in this domain now. A lot of commonality with our Hera mission, Italy is leading. It's a very strong OHB team, broad contribution from different OHB companies. As a said, [indiscernible] Milan, Italy. So we're very happy about that. Based on the name, so it's a comet interceptor to launch in 2028, but it's somehow launching and not knowing exactly which comet it will intercept. So it's like a wait and see mission. It's an exciting mission, but it shows that also with lower value, was around EUR 120 million. Really exciting missions to be done and somehow, as I said, it builds on our astral [indiscernible] mission, Hera. Another important contract that we signed also with [indiscernible], but out of Italy and with substantial Italian money is the earth observation conservation, IRIDE. 12 satellites from this side and 12 additional satellites as an option. It's -- well, of course, the rest of the observation constellation with optical monitoring, very small satellites, a class of less than 50-kilo, also developed in Italy part of the Italian extra efforts to invest in the favor of the recovery fund. So we're very happy to build those satellites in Milano. And it shows that we have been very successful in smaller missions. And I think we're the first -- our interaction is the first time I see such a mission being contracted in that class of satellites. These are contracts -- and again, we'll see how that then contributes to the commercial and of course, also scientific data provisioning. So we hope that this will not end at 12 + 12, but again, let's wait and see. Two upcoming telecom projects we are interested in, we are filing for, is the military program [indiscernible] for secure communication for the German Federal Armed Forces. We have decided to build in a consortium as a core training partner. It's going on, the proposal will be delivered in a couple of weeks. So this is confidential, but we are participating there. We believe in a very strong team. We believe with a very high probability that this team obviously is then soon also going to be able to sign a contract. [indiscernible], a big European secured communication project, secured communication constellation for the connectivity. OHB is a core team partner in big European consortium of operators and satellite manufacturers. This has been published a couple of weeks ago. We're very happy to be in that team. We are happy with our role there. We think that this program is now being implemented in the next months to come. On Aerospace segment highlights, Rocket Factory Augsburg is building its rocket for the Augsburg transfer vehicle engine. It's making good progress. The upper-stage testing in Sweden has started successfully. First hiring was a couple of weeks ago. We hope to do a few more important steps before the end of May. Our selected launch site spaceport operator, SaxaVord Spaceport on the Shetland Islands in the United Kingdom is moving along. As we've said, it's a large-scale operation. I think this is a little bit overstating it's normal operation. But it's about to be implemented and already significant infrastructure being established from us, but also from SaxaVord overall in the overall infrastructure of the spaceport that has not been operational. Digital. Also here, we move along quite well. Downstream market, obviously, is strategically very important for us. OHB Digital has been selected by ESA to develop some kind of -- a new project, monitoring critical infrastructure from space and near real-time. Yes, this is an important project we did. On the overall topic of [indiscernible] GEOSYSTEMS is moving along quite well there. So you have heard from Lutz a couple of times, the city clear project , but this is going well. We are coordinating a consortium of a couple of companies that are involved there. So I think not just the numbers are doing well in our digital part, but also the downstream, specifically the downstream activities. So moving to the numbers. Backlog was a little bit weak at the end of the quarter. That's not a big surprise, EUR 1.8 billion roughly. Hopefully, it's about to increase in the next couple of months. We are working on many proposals. I'm sure this will be part of the Q&A session. If you see the cycle that you always see with [indiscernible] and as you know, we had half a year ago, in Paris, there was a successful [indiscernible] conference that secured significant funding from our countries, mainly in Germany, but also Italy, Sweden and the other countries. Here are the numbers in Q1. We had a very solid Q1. Backlog, as I said, slightly below. Total revenues above, plus 11%, EUR 202 million. EBITDA is positive. EBIT 10% increase. So we see that we're doing well there. Earnings per share is up from EUR 0.36 now to EUR 0.41. So we're doing well. The headcount is slightly up. So overall, it's a solid set of numbers that leads us to confirm our guidance for this year. This is a very short already success of the Q1 numbers. More details. You see the revenue in the last -- compared to the last 4 years increasing. It's a record actually, I think more than EUR 200 million total revenues in the first quarter. As you know, the first quarter is typically slow, so it's not proportional. You see profitability. EBITDA is doing well with EUR 21.5 million. So we're doing okay, I think, on our path to achieving our guidance. Space segment, of course, the biggest, also EUR 155 million for the first -- for a record quarter. Profitability pretty much on a decent way. Aerospace is on its path of recovery. We saw that already last year. And you see that the path of profitability is slowly -- is continuing. So we see that the EBIT margin is now 1.9% and last year, it was only 0.2%. So this is doing okay. Of course, we do have some difficulties in aerospace, too, with IM 6 not yet launched, but we hope that it will launch in the early part of next year. We'll see that. The digital business, as I said, stable with a double-digit EBIT margin, 10.1% EBIT margin for first quarter. So we are optimistic also, which is easier, the plan being implemented. So putting it all together, the guidance that we released in January is confirmed on this occasion, it's not a big surprise. So we foresee our total revenues at EUR 1.17 billion. And we see space and OHB on continuing growth path. Same much thing also for the other numbers. So after the EUR 99 million EBITDA last year, adding about 10% to go to EUR 109 million this year is our goal. And also EBIT, we saw last year, was EUR 63 million, significant increase compared to the previous year 2021 of 34%. And now we see about an increase the range of also 10% here from 63% to 70%. So also, this is, of course, confirmed. The outlook, we don't want to talk about that in more detail. I guess, if there are any questions, of course, in terms of prospective work, Lutz and Kurt and myself are ready to give you a few hints on that. But the overall scenario is unchanged to what you have seen in our March communication after the '22 numbers and also in the January Capital Market Day information. So looking at the balance sheet. Not much change here as well. We see the same balance sheet, slightly less total assets than at year-end, which pretty good sign. But the balance sheet structure has not changed at all. Same on the general equity liability. We are now at pretty much exactly EUR 300 million equity as book value, EUR 299.8 million. It's not a slight increase. So that obviously has increased our equity share to 28.7%, I guess, almost 30%. So we're doing quite well on that side. The rest of the balance sheet is pretty much in terms of its structure. The typical evolution after year's end and in then in Q1 periods. Here are a couple of the numbers. You see that free cash flow in Q1 this year was slightly better than it was in last year, where we had minus EUR 89 million and now it's minus EUR 62 million. Net debt is slightly better at EUR 241 million compared to EUR 251 million. Own work capitalized with EUR 2 million is a low number. And since a couple of years, we were capitalizing less and amortizing, which is, I think, overall, a good thing to do. Return on capital employed is low with 8%. I'm not completely sure how that works, but maybe Kurt can give some a little bit background on how this number came about after, okay, 9% last year. So it's not such a significant change. Net debt, if we look at that, it's a little bit lower than we had it a year ago from EUR 251 million a year ago to EUR 241 million. But if we look at net debt without pensions, it's EUR 169 million, so it's slightly above where it was a year ago at EUR 155 million. But we expect the overall cash this year to be pretty much similar to what it was last year. So cash is always a concern. Interests are going up. So we have higher interest spending. Cash needs to be carefully managed. And so it's very much on our mind. I fortunately had a couple of discussions over the last days how to exactly foresee this. And as you all know, it's not so easy to foresee the cash over the full year. But again, we don't expect significant surprises there. Investment spending is pretty much the same level as it was in Q1 the year ago, EUR 4 million. And out of that, [indiscernible] capitalized EUR 2 million. So it's comparably low for a company that grows comparably low for a company with such a strong technology focus. But that obviously is very much ingrained in our business model that we do a lot of developments and a lot of also investment, building up of capabilities within the products we are doing as paid work. Now nothing to add here on the free cash flow. Internal temperature, it was a little bit longer as to financial calendar. So Martina put together a couple of more events this year, so we want to go out to a higher number of the conferences and events. We have built up our coverage with analysts. We are, as you can see, visiting more conferences. This is because we believe strongly that our share is very attractive. It is undervalued. And we are focusing on communicating that for the remainder of the year. With events like this topic, like the next platform with [indiscernible], we're going to build other investment conference. Of course, the Deutsche [indiscernible]. We feel obliged to have a strong focus on the stronger communication because, again, we feel that now in a time where interests are going up, equity is very important to be also understood and appropriately valued, and we believe that, that's at the current level of valuation fully in the stock price. Good. So that concludes my quick overview, and I'm opening the floor, and I believe Martina is moderating the questions.

We will now start the Q&A session. [Operator Instructions] So first, well, we will start the Q&A session with the contribution of Alexander Hauenstein from DZ Bank. We can see you but we can't hear you.

Can you hear me now?

Yes.

Yes.

Perfect. I've got a few of them. So we can maybe go one by one through them. So first of all, could you please provide us with an update about the group order intake you expect in 2023 and what you have seen in Q1? Is this in line with your initial expectations a few months ago? Or has there been any kind of slippage into the next quarters? So that's the first one.

Yes, it's relatively easy to answer. We should be at a higher level after -- at the end of Q1, normally, which means we see a delay in ESA implementing the decisions of the Ministerial Conference 2022. So reasons for that, that's the change of management structure in ESA, which has a certain impact. There is [indiscernible] which is not a lot of ESA, ESA resources and so on. So we see that ESA comes out with their IDTs later than what was originally forecasted. In other words, we haven't lost anything with ESA. We still have the same list of projects the same improbabilities to win, [indiscernible] we don't see projects canceled. But what we see on the ESA side is a certain delay compared to our expectations and the timing of competition starting and was therefore orders being awarded. I'm not too concerned about it. So Q1 should have been a bit higher, but as I said, it's not due to losses on the ESA side or in any institution customer. It comes to the commercial market in a second. If you look for year-end, it's a bit difficult to predict between Q4 and Q1, I would say. So there might be some slippages to Q1. We don't have real indications for that, but seeing that they are slower in Q1 than what we expected and what they have announced in their own timing plans, there might be some switch. But at the end -- the important thing for us is the order intake we get out of the Ministerial Conference. It's, of course, always nice that we're heavy in Q4 for the year-end figure. But at the end, for, let's say, the destiny of the company, it's not that's important as, let's say, Q4, Q1 order intake. It's more important the small order intake. On the commercial side, commercial cases significantly lower role in our order intake list. It's really, really much, much, much lower than what we expect on the institutional side. We see clearly that with the increase of interest rates, that commercial customers have more problems to finance the projects, in particular, start-ups. But if I look at our order intake list and with switch probabilities, we have this in as weighted order intake. I don't see a reason to change the expected order intake at this point in time. The only thing which I really see is or I'm a bit concerned about is that some ESA projects might slip from Q4 to Q1. But this is gut feeling. We don't have any indication from ESA in terms of new timing times or so, which will show this already.

Okay. But that means, if I remember correctly, you initially targeted more than EUR 1.4 billion. So would you say it's like we take a cautious view on the more than 1.4? Or do you think that the 1.4 is definitely too high, according to what you know for the time being?

I will not say it's definitely so high. I'm just saying I have a little bit of uncertainty regarding the timing of these ESA processes. So the absolute number is fine. But if we achieve it by end of the year or by end of Q1, I'm not 100% certain at this point in time.

Okay. Understood. Coming to the margin side, looking at the space systems and the digital segment, they're each a bit below last year, not dramatic. But could you comment here a bit on the reasons for that and give us especially some kind of view about the expected development over the course of the year? Are there some kind of new normal things to consider, or are there some points picking up again due to certain improvements in availability and pricing, whatever it is?

Yes. So from my point of view, we -- I see very clear in the first quarter. There's such a pressure on the cost side due to inflation impact and due to increased energy costs. That's the main reason for the pressure. And as a margin in all areas of the group at the end of the day, this is the main change. We have really see it also in our P&L. The other operating expenditures are substantially higher than compared to 3 months of last year. That is the point by the margin. Nevertheless, in our business plan for the 2023, '24, '25, we have made certain assumptions for certain inflation rates concerning increase of salary. But yes, we have made assumptions that we will see whether they are sufficient or not. Nobody can really exactly say what will happen with inflation rate all over for this year, for the next 2 years. But nevertheless, we have expected it more or less in the way we've seen it here. There's no really big surprise for us.

But the energy costs and the wages, I expect will stick for that kind of level over the next couple of 2 to 3 quarters probably. They will not change in the 1 or the other direction directly, as it takes some while until it goes through the P&L, no?

Yes. But we have -- concerning the salary side we have made an assumption of our business trends put in line with what people do this year, for example, one-to-one, 5% salary increase. This is what we are doing [indiscernible] I want to reconcile and this will be done then. So no surprise on this side. On the [indiscernible] side, perhaps a little bit surprised that there are certain cost areas where we see increase of costs, which we have not expected at the end of the day. Energy cost is clear. We have expected that at the end of the day, but in some areas, it perceives everybody consultants services and license fee costs and whatever has increased their prices. In some areas, it's a little bit of surprise, but it's no major issue.

Okay. And are there also some release parts to be seen? Let's say, in electronics components, whatever, or is this unlikely?

You are right. What we really see is we have concerning electronic components where we had in the last 1, 2 years, really [indiscernible] concerning availability, and we had really delays in our supply chain. This is no more the case. What we really see very clearly now is the electronic company has to believe partner stuff like that, which are important for our projects are really available now. And there's no major pressure on this side concerning schedule because you can see some issues like that. The brand also, there we see no substantial price increases in this area. This is really the case. There's really a relaxation of critical situation in the past 3 years concerning electronic components.

Okay. So there's an offsetting part to some other parts, and let's see how things develop in a net position overall.

There is another offsetting part and this is that customers, including institutional customers, are more open to escalation formulas again. So we had years both sides, customer and contractor side. We're favoring fixed fund price contract simply because we save lots of effort. If you don't need to really go at the price every year. With the current evolution, obviously, fixed on a company. It's not the best thing you can have and we see a clear openness on our customer side that they would accept escalation formulas again for new contracts.

Okay. Coming to the next question regarding the expected first launch of Ariane 6, you mentioned something like that you have hope to launch it next year. That doesn't sound too confident, or am I wrong in that interpretation? Have there been any changes at the horizon, or do you still expect it to be, let's say, in the middle of next year roughly?

No, no. Of course, we are getting closer and closer. The program moves along well. Now, of course, in May '23, we are much closer than we were when we talked in our Capital Markets Day. So I'm getting more and more confident that we will see the first launch of Ariane 6 early next year. So whatever that means in detail, obviously, there are still a couple of tests to be completed. Obviously, everybody works very hard on it. But I think we are within a year of the first launch. That is technologically very important. So we're really getting closer. But as you know, for the last, I don't know, 2 years, we were always discussing the potential for launch date. I guess we're now closing in here. That's technologically very important. And again, I think there are progresses. And exactly the date is not for us to publish. I guess I'm just more and more confident that it will be in the earlier part of next year. So within the year, I'm pretty sure that we will do it.

Okay. Last question, I read that you recently lost on court regarding the Galileo case. Is there any impact to be expected for your balance sheet? Just checking.

No. This was the court that was 2.5 years ago. Early '21, yes it was January '21. So almost 2.5 years ago when the decision was we lost the Galileo competition. We had the success in the legal proceeding for the injunction for the Iceberg Insurance. And now the final case however was decided against us, so it was determined that the commission did not have an obligation to follow the supposed irregularities that we were hinting at. And yes, that's the decision and that's what it is. But it doesn't change anything on our balance sheet. So we did not have any claims or any assets related to the balance sheet. So it's over now. We're happy to continue. Of course, we have been very disappointed and the shock was very deeper. We lost it 2.5 years ago, but life goes on. And we still aim at becoming a part of the Galileo venture again.

We are now looking forward to the questions of Zafer Rüzgar from Pareto Securities.

My first question is on Iris Square, and there's a lot of news around that in the past weeks. And I thought it very interesting to know how is OHB positioned in that consortium. And you mentioned given the fact that there are also other satellite producers, are you more on the prime contractor side, or what will be your role in this consortium?

Actually, there was a milestone on 26th of April when the bidders had to qualify or hand in qualification documents to be eligible as a bidder in IRIS². From all what we know informally, not officially, but informally, there's this 1 large consortium where we are part of. And there are a few other single bidders where we can hardly imagine that they would be eligible. Anyhow, that's the decision of the commission, we expect then in late May, mid-May commission to declare who is eligible and then end May it is to come out. Within this large consortium, you have the whole European industry. On the operating side, you have SDS [indiscernible] and so on. On the telco side of our Deutsche Telekom, on the OEM side, Airbus, Arianespace and OHB are all 3 part of this consortium. So it's a very large consortium. And this is driven a bit by the way the tender was changed by the commission. They went away where in total, there will be 4 tenders, but more than 80% of the whole thing is in the so-called maintained to disclose any work share which we haven't read at this point in time. Clearly, we have such agreements. Why didn't we disclose them, simply because the IDT is not out, which means all arrangements which we have done now are kind of preliminary. We don't know the final specification of the IDT. and this might have an impact on the work share, not in terms of percentage of work share, but in terms of who does what precisely. The second thing is for PPP, which means we need to be competitive as well because the private investor wants to have return on investment and that's a very clear understanding of interest. If we look at OHB's position without being precise, I believe we are actually very satisfied. We reached what we wanted to reach. We have our part of this overall consortium brand. OHB will have its responsibility [indiscernible]. So we are not [indiscernible] somewhere. In many things, we have a very clear work share in an area where we are strong as well. So I believe the positioning, which we have, is a fairly good one. And actually, as it all goes through like it is, it will be shaping for what we see in the future, in a positive sense, of course.

Okay. And the next question is regarding Satcom and it would be interesting to know if you are able to share the name of your partners and what kind of solutions they are going to provide to this program. Are these more companies on the defense side of that business? And I'm not sure if you were in the past also in control or is this now new due to, let's say, change requirements of the government?

The change came out of the way the tender has been done by the government. The -- it's on the 1 hand specification for that government. It's the valuation criteria and the percent of valuation given to certain targets combined with terms and conditions and so on, which were driving industry to join forces, to combine strength in 2 different areas of this tender. I will not disclose our partner, but we strongly believe that with this partnership, we believe to win is certainly above 80%, and that might be a conservative and shy assumption.

But we can guess that's a German name, right?

I am sorry, but I will not go further in terms of naming our partner.

Okay. Then regarding the recent Italian orders, you mentioned that you already started to process the program. It would be interesting to know the revenue impact of these missions in the first quarter on Space Systems.

On the first one, it's pretty low. I don't know [indiscernible] but no [indiscernible]. And that's because we have a startup phase. So that's more or less where you're doing architecture work and so on, we need even on the engineering side, we have not hundreds of people working at the beginning, meaning you focus on the overall architecture, you focus on getting specification for supply chain down and so on. And just by nature, you have a certain ramp up in each and every program, and we are at the beginning of these ramp-up phases. Therefore, really without having a precise number in mind, but I would say somewhere low double digits.

Okay. And then finally, on the P&L, Mr. Melching, you already mentioned the operating expenses, which are extraordinarily high, it was EUR 16 million compared to EUR 9 million in the last quarter, or last year's quarter. Is that the new run rate given the inflation impact for this year, or do you expect this to come down in the course of the year, more towards, let's say, EUR 10 million level?

I believe that this will come in slightly down because there are some extraordinary expenditures in the first quarter. And I believe that this may be lower in the next following quarters.

Okay. And can you share the extraordinary items, the amount of that in the first quarter?

Extraordinary consultants costs and we had some extraordinary lawyer costs, which we had not expected, which is really biggest of two, but it was really absolutely in the first quarter, and which will hopefully not be coming back in the next quarters.

We will now welcome [indiscernible] from [indiscernible] to the panel.

Basically, I have 2 remaining questions that haven't been answered already. I would like to know on the Aerospace segment with the launch coming in the next year. Do you see that the cadence is already increasing to the estimated 6 to 9 patents by the Ariane 6 or is it still at 4 for this year? And if you could share some way from that would be perfect.

For this year, it's still at the lower part. Of course, that's a big question out there, and people are very optimistic about the ramp-up of the cadence and are more cautious. Our planning is more on the cautious side. And also, we do a cautious planning because we are pretty early in the manufacturing rate. So we do have a buffer. We have already manufactured under the ongoing contract of 15 chipsets, certain amount of equipment and chipsets. So we are not the first -- I mean, we're not driving out early. So we believe, again, we hope that the optimistic guidance will become true, but we don't really change the manufacturing this year. We see this more at this level of 4 chipsets that we produced this year.

And my last question is actually 2 weeks ago, the Japanese tried to land on the moon. I would like to know if your Lunar Surface Access Service is still on track for the 2025 mission, and how it's going on, on this side.

It's unfortunate. So it showed that landing on the moon is more difficult. We saw some time ago, our Israeli partner with [indiscernible]. Now this one, some time ago, some months ago, I visited the European company of space in Luxembourg. So I saw it's hard where they are and a very excited team. And it's very unfortunate that this mission didn't succeed. I'm not exactly sure how this will go on. But again, it just shows how difficult it is to land on the moon or -- let alone Mars. Many projects are attracting that and only a few are really succeeding. With regard to our moon project, I will hand it over to Lutz. We are working there very hard on our proposal for the ISA side. So the ISA business is going well, but the proposal preparation is going on. Commercial part, I don't really have an update, but maybe Lutz has an update.

Yes. I mean, we believe that on Ariane, which was formally named EA 3, so this large European mission [indiscernible] lander, which actually is a base vehicle but then has different [indiscernible] modules, for either cargo or science or so. We are very confident that we have a very strong team there, and this team is very also founded by the way nations have signed the budgets for this ambition in the ministerial conference, which means that primarily, it's Italy and Germany, more or less from an equal level. It will be slightly higher than Germany, but it's, if I remember well, slightly among the 20 million, so more or less equal level. They are the main supporters of this mission, and we are a team with Italy for this mission. So this fits very well to the interest of the nations. Technically, we are very confident that we have a very, very good offering, which includes lots of OHB group companies. It's not only space system, landing [indiscernible] and so on. So tanks coming from them, so different parts of the group are involved here. So strong positioning, very confident that we will play a major role there. Very confident that the tasks which we team will be the winner. Of course, Airbus will bid. But in terms of nations involved, in terms of technical solutions, in terms of what the space agencies want to do in that mission and what we are offering, there is a very, very good fit. So I would wonder if that 1 will not be ours. Commercial side more difficult, but a much smaller scale. I mean that's a mission in the range of EUR 100 million total. While argonauts at the end over the different ministerial conferences, a mission, which is in the Belgian region. So minimum 10x larger. Commercial more difficult because more difficult to get commercial payloads at the moment. So this was taxi to the moon. And if you take a taxi you have to pay for the ride. This is really getting more difficult. So I'm a little bit more skeptical on the conversion mission.

Since I do not see any more questioners or questions in the chat, I would like to hand over to Marco Fuchs again.

Yes, thank you very much, Martina. Yes, if there are no more questions, obviously, I think it's just for me to say thank you. We're, of course, looking forward to have you digitally with us at our upcoming [indiscernible], the Annual Shareholder Meeting, which will take place 2 weeks from now, actually pretty much, I think tomorrow 2 weeks from now. We'll have an exciting update on many things. And of course, we are ready also for questions. Other than that, obviously, you're all invited to stay in touch with Martina, with Kurt, Lutz and myself. If you're ever in the region of [indiscernible] walk by. I think it's exciting to see the launches in [indiscernible], the satellites in [indiscernible]. So from my side, just thank you for your attention and for your interest in OHB. And I wish you a good day, and let's stay in touch. Bye-bye. Thank you.