Omda AS (OMDA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning or good afternoon, depending on where you are in this world, and welcome to a business update from Omda. We had some technical challenges today. So it's on Teams, but I hope that it will do the trick. [Operator Instructions] Right. The business update focuses on 2 areas. It's on M&A and an update there, what's happening. And it's the ending 2024 and into 2025. So what's happening then. So that said, let's see our presentations. Let's get the show on the road. Sverre?

We're now going through the agenda first so that all of you can see what we're going to talk about. And we have 2 great news this time, 2 acquisitions. So the number -- point 1 and 2 here are related to M&As. The first point also includes Predicare, which came in earlier, but we have got some questions and feedback from maybe that we should focus more on information about the targets we acquire. So we will focus a bit on those 3 targets as the first point today. And then based also on feedback from many of you, the busy status, the performance and also the bridge to our future numbers and especially then in 2025. So we thought this agenda with the outlook, both from '25, but also initially how things will move into '26 and '27. So we will do that and go through also the actual measures done on the cost side to secure the margin. And at the end also, we have heard from many of you that speaking about cash and cash from operations, working capital, et cetera, that we will update you on that as well, making sure everybody understands the same thing. So hopefully, so many questions and feedback we've got that this will answer to most of those. But as Einar mentioned, although we are in Teams this time, not in our normal studio, we would like you to type in your questions as we go, and then we can go back and answer those at the end of the presentation. So let's now move on to number 1 and within our Emergency sector and the 2 acquisitions made, and one made a few weeks ago and another one published today, Aweria. And just to explain why we are acquiring companies like this and where these companies are fitting in what is -- emerges in really what it's about. And I think you all will understand that the criticality of software supporting users that are responsible for such events, as you can see in this picture is obviously a very important role we have. And we have, over time, tried to create a tool set that supports a large value chain that, in the end, will make the emergency service better. And I will go through it now because the latest acquisition we published today and also the previous one within emergency is all connected, and it has a role. And just to explain properly the processes within emergency and every second counts. First of all, before you have a business that actually supports the emergency, then you have a management to have to plan it. What type of resources should be available, whether it's ambulances, helicopter people, et cetera. So that is also one type of software that is important because it's not easy to plan because different things are happening like holiday things or Fourth of July and stuff like that, meaning that planning such service is very, very important. So that is one thing. And the three next step or the user profiles there. One is the help seeker that calls in, in such an incident. And then you have the operator receiving the 911 call and the emergency dispatcher that actually make decisions to secure that the right help is getting at the right time. And all of these components have been put together to support a very good set of solutions that could support regional and national emergency services. We have this installed in many countries. And then in addition, you have from the previous acquisition, we also have an ambulance software, which is divided into 2 user groups. One is the ambulance personnel that navigates the ambulance. And then you have the people working with the medical service. And there are 2 types of software. And as you see on the right-hand side now, it is actually new type of software that has come in, that brings us into the acute hospital in addition. So that is the acquisition of Aweria we announced today, and also Predicare announced a few weeks ago. And if you see on the bottom part of the slide here, you will see that the acquisitions that has been done over the years, how are their rolled in this process. And as you see, all from OPTIMA on the left side, that support the management user group. You have three of our acquisitions actually supporting the help seeker, operator and emergency dispatcher. And then we have part of this, Aweria care in helping on the ambulance personnel side and acute hospital side. So all in all, I think we can say that our history here and the way to create a platform through acquisitions has given us a competitive -- very strong national position. So all in all, this has all been done through M&A. And just to give you a brief history here, we acquired 10 years ago, AMIS here in Norway, which was the first type of operator software. And then in 2018, we acquired Paratus from Saab in Sweden. Those together supports many of those user groups. And then when we acquired Carmenta, we also acquired Optima, which we have been cooperating with for many years. And all of those together has brought us to a value chain. And up till today, where we also acquired Aweria, in addition to Predicare a few weeks ago, then we have managed to create a complete value chain for emergency that is very, very strong. So it is important when you see our acquisitions, they are there for a reason. It's an industrial logic behind it. And we are coming back now to the -- of course, the financial logic as well. And now if you look at our website, you will also see that the customers, when they dive into our website to look at what they want might be find these functional aspects in different ways inside our website as well. So this is how the customer looks at it as opposed to looking at it from a process-oriented way. And then the business, which is, of course, an important thing, the good thing here within emergency, we have decentralized emergency during the fourth quarter 2024. And we have created a new separate business entities: readiness, incidents, acute care and response. Readiness delivering components to the management part of the business; incidents and acute care, both delivering to control rooms. Incident mostly to bigger national regional customers. Acute care also with smaller customers and acute entities. And then we have response that now has been increased as a business with Predicare and Aweria. And the integration is ongoing there. The good thing now, you've all heard about our buy, integrate and build process and the integration here is really not very complex. And the reason is that these type of companies and their software has been integrated already because Predicare is about methodology, [ Ret ] methodology, which is used both in Paratus and also Aweria, meaning that we get a platform here that will support a complete process based on the same methodology. So all in all, the business integration will not be very heavy. And the good thing is also after the decentralization here is that the integration is related to one smaller business entity and will not be a problem when it comes to looking at longer processes and that will hit our margins as we have been discovering in earlier years. So that's a good thing, the scalability and the centralization. So -- and then based on this, Einar, these 2 logos, you could probably explain a bit more about the business part of it.

Absolutely. And the -- let's do the -- take the Predicare first. We have had some comments that we didn't really properly present the Predicare acquisition. We sent a press release. So we thought we'd just use this opportunity to give a little more details on the transaction and the financial logic behind it and the consequences of the process and terms. First and foremost, we became aware of Predicare after the acquisition of Paratus in 2018. We realized that the triage engine within Paratus belong to the company, namely Predicare. So we approached Predicare and had the first dialogue in 2019, made the first offer for the company in 2020. They went on their own, but we maintained dialogue and we -- in late June this year, we agreed terms to acquire a company to sign a term sheet with them. The SPA was signed in October, it took a little while this -- to complete for various reasons as it's [indiscernible] with entrepreneurial-led companies. And we closed it in the first part of December. So that transaction is formally completed. In Sweden and in Europe, we require an FDI filing for a direct investment. So that will always have a real delay in 25 business days. You should expect delay between signing and closing. The sales projected for next year on Predicare between SEK 15 million and SEK 17 million, and we expect a positive EBITDA and cash EBITDA. We agreed on transaction price of SEK 23.5 million for the company, SEK 12 million in cash and SEK 11.5 million in Omda shares. We have had some questions and also some critical voices related to the way we've financed it. But that said, to pay in shares was instrumental. We would have had a deal without it. And then you can always wonder if it was the right balance between it, especially if you look at the intrinsic value of the shares. But it is what it is, and we still think it makes a good sense even in spite of that. There are some areas for improvement related to Predicare. And when we see synergies and upside potential beyond just changing ownership. And that is related to contract management, to pricing, to the business model itself and to cash management. So there are a lot of good things with the company and with [indiscernible] but there are also things to improve, which is a good thing. And that's on the agenda for next year. We just started working together and so far, so very good. All right. Aweria. Same thing there. Also a company that we have known for many years. We actually had our first dialogue in 2015 with Karl Ahlstedt, the entrepreneurial founder after we acquired AMIS. So this is -- so we follow the company. But after we acquired Predicare, the discussions really advanced. And -- we -- this was a very rapid transaction, but [indiscernible] the company for years. We signed the term early in December, and we are signing it today. So that is probably, at least for us, a new record. And again, closely is subject to the FDA approval, the same with [indiscernible] and so with Predicare. So we [ see ] again 25 working days, late January, early February, we should be good to go. Sales for 2025, and this is a small company. There have been challenges for them being small between SEK 2.5 million and SEK 5 million in sales expected for next year. And we do expect a negative cash EBITDA breakeven at best, but not a huge number, maybe a couple of millions, but this is an improvement case. This is a third better case, but there are a lot of good things to build on here. The transaction, a very limited fixed consideration. So upfront is very limited. But then if they really succeed, there is an earnout and the earnout period is from 2026 to 2030 and will be paid out in 2 tranches in '30 and '31 and is up to SEK 20 million. So again, this is not a short sprint. This is a marathon. But we absolutely want to give the company and the people a chance. We think it can be very successful. So that is this transaction. But again, it's very light as you can see on cash upfront. Okay. And the areas for improvement here. First and foremost, as Sverre presented, synergies with the other under offerings within emergency and acute care. There are things to do on the contracts, things to do on MDR certification, we have spoken about this before that size matters. It's increasingly challenging to be small and a small supplier. Are you too small to get -- be invited for dinner? Until you get invited for dinner, you can't really come in and participate. So it's a tricky the next situation. Even though we're probably -- they are the finest most advanced products in this part of the industry, they have been too small to get a place at the table. So that is what we opt to -- hope to change for this transaction. We are very optimistic about what is possible here. And so great opportunity here for us.

Great. Thank you, Einar. And then it's not only exciting -- the combo of Predicare ad Aweria are also a very nice Christmas present that we actually have acquired also the AI and [indiscernible] because this is also a company we have been looking at over time within our imaging business. And similarly here, as within emergency, we're working on the processes in different areas within health care using imaging in different ways and to securely capture share in [indiscernible] is one thing. And the quality of imaging is one thing that is Dermicus' professional approach to when it comes to the [indiscernible] use of AI to secure that the quality here is very, very high. So all in all, in our stack of components, the Dermicus is a very, very good thing as an add on to current business. So let's use the same summary here from the history. We acquired Mawell in 2016, and then we became the leading player in the Nordics, adding a lot of business projects to our stacks. And then we acquired Kibi in 2019 and then also other market areas. And we also added other types of storage mechanisms and also encryption engines to distribute health care information. So all in all, these 2 parts of our history, we became strong in the Nordics. So now what are we doing now with the Dermicus? It's a multidimensional add-on to what we do. And it has been a while since we have made acquisitions in the area but it fits very well. If you look at it from our customer perspective, all of these elements that we offer, put together, we see that Dermicus is very much focused on the client side, on the user interface side and is also going to be a separate business and a growing component stand-alone as well. So all in all, it gives us a very strong offering. And then if you look at the business side here as well, there will be 2 business units within the Medical Imaging area, which secures that we can focus on the organic growth and cash EBITDA and working capital internally. And then you see from the other M&As we've done previously are -- of course, already integrated. And when we signed today, we also have initiated an integration process to secure that Dermicus becomes a very good part of our offering. So I'm really happy about this. The product is very advanced and it helps us integrate with our current customers' workflow. So that means that with our current contracts, we could add Dermicus' functionality and the mobile functionality into our current business, which is very important for a company like us that sell and upsell on our current contracts. So having said that, Einar, there are also some business processes here as well.

Yes, and there certainly is. Dermicus, again, nothing new for us. We had the first dialogue in 2022. So not going back as far as with Aweria by 2022 with the first dialogue. What happened then was that Dermicus called Gnosco at the time, they were actually sold to Barco, the Dutch company. But they demerged in the first half of the second quarter this year. So they split up again after initial -- the initial merge. And we continue to have dialogue with [indiscernible] sold to Barco. And then we continue the dialogue in June this year, and we agreed during the autumn to proceed and we signed a term sheet in very late October -- actually last day of October. And we are signing the SPA today. And this, again, the closing is subject to FDA approval that goes for almost all software within the health care and the merchants the acute sector in Sweden and Europe. And here as well, we assume to have the approval end of January, early February next year. Sales of Dermicus, and this is, as I said, the split out and they emerged from Barco. So Dermicus remained in Barco. So if you try to look at the historic numbers, they will confuse you, so don't do that. But the sales for next year approximately, SEK 140 million. We have agreed the transaction price on a fixed consideration of SEK 19 million where their payable is closing, and the SEK 7 million -- the remaining SEK 7 million, they will be paid in 2027. So we sell the credit on that one. Here as well, the earn-out is subject into the company or the founders reaching certain sales and cash EBITDA targets. There will be an earn-out up to SEK 15 million the earn-out period is 2025 and 2026 combined. It will be paid out assuming the second quarter of 2027, at the same time with the silver credit. So that's how this is established. And the areas for improvement or the upside potential, if you like here, I mean the technology is second to none, very impressive. But the -- there are some synergies, especially related to existing contracts and the current under contracts where we have opportunities and they have the product. So from such a perspective, is a very good match. And also, of course, pricing and the business model, there's always something. And again, being part of a bigger company is something that they -- looking forward to as well. It is increasingly hard to be a small company. Okay. And over to you, Sverre. And just before I hand it over to you, again, we are on Teams this time. But if you have any questions, please use the chat function, and we will attend to them after the presentation.

Yes. And now as I mentioned initially, we have had several feedbacks from investors that wants us to be more clear about our guiding, be more clear about the actions taken to secure margin expansion and also, even more specifically guide for the next year. So we have tried to accommodate that. Also focused a bit on explaining the cash situation. So I might have misunderstood how the cash also will develop through 2025 and onwards. So we will also make sure that everybody gets comfort that everything is in order. So let's just go through some fundamentals. Let's start with the third quarter numbers because when we explain how the business is going to develop and the cash EBITDA is going to develop, the cash EBITDA is what we measure internally. Well, EBITDA is what you see here from the report -- the quarterly report. And what you saw in that report was that in the emergency area was the one hitting us very much. And most of actions that they have taken in the fourth quarter 2024 is to address that and these actions are completed, which is a very good news because that has to do with the run rate going into 2025. So it isn't a problem that we had this slightly low margin. It was related to a specific thing. That means also it's got clear how we could approach it when it is in specialized areas that we can focus on. So what we have done is to -- this is a business slide, but it's also there to explain properly. What we see now is that when you work on the next year's budgeting, we see that the business areas that performed well in the third quarter would continue to perform well. And we see that those five business areas on the left hand side will perform cash EBITDA between 13% and 17% in 2025 when we look at it now. As you see, there's one subperformer, LIMS. That is an investment area for us still, when it comes to big customer projects and a very, very long project plans. So that is still that way. But even though we see that we will get a cash EBITDA between 13% to 17% anyway on average for those. And the same thing actually happened when we look at the emergency side. While all the others here had to get their margin going based on the phase out of remote shoring while on the emergency side, it has been very specific related to the centralization. And that is now complete and that secures roughly SEK 30 million in permanent cost reductions going forward, which means that those 4 business units you see here now, number one, incident, readiness, acute care and response. Those will altogether perform roughly the same as the other five. So -- and when we split it up, it was quite easy to see where to make the right decisions in the right -- and secure the right measures. So all in all, that is now done. So we expect that this is going to be the average for the combo of these business areas. And of course, you saw we have announced the acquisitions that will be integrated into a response. So we decentralized, but we also include these 2 businesses into the response. Again, it shows also the scalability here that we will not disturb the other part of the emergency. It will only be a project inside the response unit, which is quite clear and then easy to follow. So all in all, the internal focus on cash EBITDA is very much under control. And I'll also explain properly how we think this will look in the longer term based on what has been delivered. And by delivered, I mean we have completed FTE reductions already. And based on that, if you look at the second half of '24 going into '25, we have reduced a number of FTEs, making it possible for us to secure a margin expansion in the first and second half of '25. So what are these -- what does this graph mean? Let me take point by point. If you look at this orange number one on this graph, you will see that we have decentralized emergency, which has made possible for us to reduce dramatically with the run rate into 2025. So that is already done, meaning when we enter the first half of '25, we think that it's possible to get up close to 20% the EBITDA margin in the first half of 25%. And then we have to recruit some Nordic resources, and we they have also added some of the employees that come in through acquisitions. So all in all, that means there will be slightly higher number of employees than when we get out of the year with the current operations. And then the third one is, of course, the remote sharing agreement expires in the beginning of the second half year, meaning in the first of -- 30th of June in 2025. And that is already signed and the projects are already -- the phaseout of these consulting agreements is already planned to be finalized. That means we have created a more sustainable level of employees through the fourth quarter 2025, securing a margin expansion that going forward, will be close to what we have -- to have as a target is a long time, but we haven't achieved it. And that -- many of you asked us when will we reach 30% EBITDA based on the fact that we haven't done it in 2024. And now we're going to explain how. And the fact is the number of employees combined with actual stable, low turn recurring revenue that is predictable and growing, that is what makes this possible. And also, Einar, maybe you can explain why can we just get 30% EBITDA in the first half of '25 and wait until the second half of '25.

That's a good question. And I think we all need to be reminded about the seasonality effect in Omda. Again, we are accounting according to GAAP and Swedish GAAP, Norwegian GAAP. And most of our employees, they are either in Norway or in Sweden. That means that we have what we call the holiday pay effect. And that is very pronounced. And that means that salary cost, the recognized salary cost will always be lower in the third quarter, specifically compared to the other quarters. So the second half will always be more lucrative but we need to look at it on average to understand that. But you should always expect to lower profitability in the first half and the better profitability in the second half of the year, that is the seasonality effect related to holiday pay and very pronounced in Norway and Sweden. So as long as most of the employees are in Norway and Sweden, that effect will be visible in the accounts, not much more [indiscernible] than that. But one question for you is the number of employees here. We see are they -- I mean, we just announced Predicare and that was disclosed, and we are signing 2 other acquisitions today, and there are some people there, obviously, on that -- that's a very good question. And of course, they are included in those numbers because that is what we actually have when we look at '25. So we have to start with '25 and in '25, we would like to have all of them. So the point here is not to explain to you whether it's SEK 263 million or SEK 266 million. We've been very, very precise, but the point is a very important point. The trend based on the actions already completed brings us down there. And that starts already in the first half and the recruitment we are doing based on the fact that we are phasing out the outsourcing, that is also included here. Meaning that the new platform is what we think is sustainable for a business. And that is why we wanted to show you '26, '27, just briefly here that with the current staff handling the current customers, current products with those acquisitions we've already done. We should perform roughly like this. And you see the expected EBITDA margin interval added there. That is where we think we will run looking at the current business with those acquisitions included. So that is important to emphasize. So maybe then we get back to more specific guiding questions. We haven't really guided specifically. But based on what we see now, this is where we're running. And also here, as you can see from the two comments here, this is organic growth. When you look at the fourth -- '24, and it's included acquisitions when you look at '25. And as mentioned in the previous slide, that's 2026 to '27, we think that the 30% margin will be the ordinary place where we should try to start our margin expansion over time. And similarly, that we stick to our 5% to 10% organic growth going forward as well. So that's where we are. And the reason why we don't have 30% EBITDA full year, '25 in our guiding year is, as Einar have explained properly that the first half year after we have now reduced. And also, we have this outpacing of external consulting in the first half year. It will be 30% in the second half of 2025, which is our target and then on average between 23% and 25% for the full year '25 budget as we see it now. So maybe based on that, we feel that we have a good plan. We feel that we even can provide you more comfort when it comes to cash [indiscernible].

Absolutely. Just before we leave this slide, you see the adjusted EBITDA. That is something we don't present very often. The reason why we mentioned it here is that linked to the cost reductions and reduction of number of personnel. There may be some severance packages or nonrecurring cost items. So if there are in the nonrecurring cost items, we think it's fair to single them out. So you can see what is the business going forward and what are indeed onetime effects. We don't do it very often. But if -- but this may be one of those incidents just to make it easier for you to establish a run rate picture of our operations. Cash. We said in the previous quarterly calls that we are focusing on cash. We have focused extensively, I'd say, on cash management and net working capital improvements in the fourth quarter, relates to 4 specific areas. One is [indiscernible] all I've mentioned before, accounts receivable to make sure that the money we actually get, it's transferred probably from the customers' bank accounts into ours. Again, I mean we have more than 95% of the customers. So it's not like we don't get the money or any losses there, but they can be slow payers. We need to put pressure on. And we have made substantial improvements there in the fourth quarter. Invoicing practice, we just -- I think I mentioned before, when you earned an income, but you have an invoice because maybe it's not usual to wait until the end of the month or something. So we are going through all the practices there and improving on that. The third and maybe most important here in the big picture, especially now as we draw to the end of the year is the invoicing of the annual recurring revenue and to do that as quickly as possible. So we have been much more agile this year than we were last year. And I should also mention that last year, we introduced a new system, invoicing and digitalization system. It has been extremely good, very good but we introduced it approximately a year ago, and there were some symptoms, start-up for the challenges. We had to make it all work smoothly. And that delayed us a little in the invoicing and some should have been invoiced before they took a little longer. But that is working better this year. And the last thing is supplier terms. We did the terms with suppliers. Those four, we were working actively on and then also improving the cash situation is, of course, to reduce the cost of the payable costs and is related to salary personnel and also other costs. Typically, everything else, softer, whatever office lease, whatever it might be. And the base assumption for our cash position at the end of this year is probably in the neighborhood of where we were last year. And that -- and that's -- as you can understand, a decent improvement really underlying because keep in mind that for nonoperational items, we have paid out SEK 10 million in dividend. We paid out SEK 12 million for Predicare. And we have another SEK 10 million paid out for -- what was last one?

Dividend? Dividend. Yes. And so that is -- so -- but despite of that, we think we will arrive at approximately the same cash position at the end of this year as we did last year. Again, of course, provided that all the customers, they actually pay their bills and invoices on time. So -- but in the neighborhood of that but not that far away and especially if you adjust for the items that I mentioned. Okay. So we are doing -- we have really improved very much on the working capital and very happy because that gives -- I think, give us all comfort going into Christmas, knowing that the cash is on our side. Okay, Sverre?

Yes. I think the combo, the cash situation and the ability to continue acquiring and knowing that our business from the fourth quarter and onwards is actually performing much better when it comes to cash. I think we are just thinking that we have to stick to our ambitions and continue doing what we've been good at doing in the past. So I think what we have talked about today, the three acquisitions you see on the bottom part of the slide here is definitely a very good news for Omda and I think we can continue based on how we see the business now is performing to do smarter M&As on that size, bigger M&As. We will also work on that. Of course, then we have to look at the funding case by case. But all in all, we are quite happy with the platform into 2025. We also see that the organic growth and profitability now is supporting what we actually want to do. So all in all, I would say that although we've had struggled a bit during '24, and someone asked me why didn't we decentralized the emergency sector before. And the answer to that is that we have extremely important contract negotiations in different countries that were very important not to disturb. So we postponed it by decision, not a coincidence. And we knew that they will hurt us a bit in -- especially in the second and third quarter in '24. However, I think we made the right decision, and we stick to our plans. So having said that, maybe we should look at -- see if there are some questions.

There really aren't any so far, but I'd just like to add one thing. I mentioned about the cash situation. I said there are three things. and the last was, of course, the share buyback. So share buyback, share buyback and dividend and Predicare, roughly SEK 30 million. Okay. There are some questions here. They are not -- not here, for some reason, there. Okay. again, I apologize for this. A bit familiar with this. "How do you estimate CapEx percent of revenue 2022 and onwards?" I guess maybe it's a typo, 2025, maybe should be from you, Jonas, but we maintain the same guidance on CapEx. So as Sverre said, around 15% cash EBITDA, that means around 25% EBITDA. That will translate into that. So we haven't done anything on the CapEx guidance. But I'd say, if anything, I would -- I wouldn't be so surprised if it was 8% to 10%. I will be more surprised it was 10% to 12%. So -- but we maintain the guidance. And there's one from you, hello, [ Shezad ]. "What is your expectations on the number of FTEs and run rate personnel expenses for the 1st of January 2025?"

Run rate, we haven't published the run rate personnel expenses into 2025 but as you saw from the number of -- in the presentation, I can share that one. So we can -- let me see here. If you look at this chart, it is of the exact number. But as you see here from the second half, when we go out of the second half of 2024, you see a number around SEK 270 million, including the new acquisitions that is important. And then based on the number of FTEs in the contracts of -- it's not only the Filipino contract, but also some other consulting contracts that ends. We will end up roughly around that number in the -- when we enter 2025. However, when we get out on the second half of -- first half of '25, then you will see the reduced number below SEK 265 million there, including the new acquisitions. So all in all, compared to the sales, we think that, that number of FTEs in the second half of 2025 will be supporting the 30% EBITDA or 20% EBITDA. So that is really the idea. And that's the reason for not being able to have that run rate into the first half year is because of the consulting agreement in the Filipino part, and also other consultants that will be removed. So without publishing the exact number, that is how it's going to go with a number of heads. Okay. Another one from you, [ Shezad ]. The question is, "Will you report revenue and cash EBITDA for each of the new four emergency business units in the 2024 annual report?" And the answer is no, we will not. So we are splitting that up now. So we will do our best to give you the information you need to make good decisions, but we don't plan to be able to report per business area. And then the last question was about Aweria and you're right. Also, Shezad, "SEK 6 million in revenue. It looks like 12 employees. This implies that Aweria is running at a cash EBITDA loss, maybe in the range of SEK 3 million to SEK 6 million. If so, we'll -- this will make it more difficult for you to achieve a sufficient level of profitability. What are your thoughts on this?" And let me address the numbers first, and then you can address the business logic. First and foremost, they are not 12 employees. As you can see from the press release, both on our website and on Newspoint, they are 6 employees. So that is half. And again, as we said, there is but we still can expect maybe a negative cash EBITDA but it's limited. So maybe in the order of between 0 and SEK 2.5 million, in that order. But considering what we are paying for from the company the negative cash EBITDA potentially. I said potentially through the year is really what we are paying upfront, okay? And then we wouldn't have acquired it if we don't think that there is a substantial upside potential for us as well. So what can we say about this? Why should there be more or more successful on the [indiscernible] compared to be a stand-alone company? Well, it has to do with the actual contract situation. We have several contracts with large regions in the Nordics that we'd like to have that type of software that Aweria has, which is difficult for them to sell because it often requires tendering. And the good thing here is that it's already integrated with our [indiscernible] methodology and also since our [ AMIS ] software also integrated into using the same methodology, we can create the value chain and package this with pricing and add-on modules that I have a really good reason to think that even though we have put a negative expectation between SEK 1 million and SEK 2 million-ish as Einar mentioned, our goal is obviously that we wanted to get positive as soon as possible. And I think this is one type of software that is quite easy to sell as an add-on because it's others is very specifically a continued workflow process that is already in production. So we have a very, very good view of Aweria combined Predicare. I think that will be a very good thing for us, actually.

Okay. There seem to be no more questions. So knowing there is a little delay on Teams live. So we can give it a little time just to see if there are any more questions. No, it doesn't seem to be. Okay. We thank you for participating. We know that we invited you on short notice, and that is, of course, because we wanted to make sure we had all the agreements in place. So I apologize for that. I still hope you have enjoyed the presentation. I hope you like the news. You can see that we definitely have not forgotten about M&A. And we are focusing on cash and we are focusing on running a good business ending this year and into the next year. Next time, we'll be on normal platform. I hope again, we will present our fourth quarter results at the end of February. And until we have any other news for you, we'll meet again then. And in the meantime, have a really nice Christmas spend some time with your loved ones, and enjoy and see you next year.