Orion Digital Corp. (ORIO) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

You're watching the blockchain interview hosted by Dan Weiskopf. Each episode features interviews with leading industry experts so that viewers can have a deeper understanding of today's quickly evolving blockchain marketplace.

Thank you, Greg, for joining me here in the blockchain CEO interview series. Here I am with Greg Feller, CEO. You're a CEO. Actually, I got that wrong with somebody. Are you CEO or co-CEO, by the way?

I'm actually President.

President.

My identical Twin Brother technically has the CEO title.

Yes. Well, titles matter in this world. It's funny in the year that I've gotten to know you, I've really been impressed with the ability for your firm to deliver on your targets. So tell me a little bit about your journey for those who don't know how you ended up in Canada of all places, working with your brother.

Yes. So I guess, background is I'm from Vancouver originally, so I'm Canadian. I'm actually dual citizen now living in New York today. And my brother and I are actually identical twins. And we sort of -- we went to college together and then went down different paths, went down the entrepreneurial path. I went down the more of the traditional finance path wound up on Wall Street. I was an investment banker on Wall Street for about 16 years. And probably during the dot-com days, I was actually a banker at Goldman in Silicon Valley, work on the original dot-com IPOs. My brother at the time, started to get interested in what the Internet could do in financial services. And I would say, he always had a passion around personal finances and understanding personal finances. And ultimately, there are some basic principles in managing your personal finances, which most people don't understand. Most people find it very complex and hard to understand. And that's why, quite frankly, most consumers don't get it right, and half of consumers are struggling with that and don't have retirement account. And so he was really interested in the idea of bringing that online into the Internet world, but that was kind of as most dot-com things were the technology really was ready yet. And then he kind of got into lending, that's where he sort of started. As I say, every fintech out there their journey generally starts with 1 product. So if it's Robinhood with free stock trading or if Square with peer-to-peer everybody starts somewhere, but ultimately, what most of the players are doing and like Mogo is doing is building a much broader digital wallet, which ultimately bring all these finance products into 1 single wallet. But everybody's journey starts with 1 product, and Mogo started with lending. By the way, Mogo originally means money on the go. That's where that name actually came from. A little bit of history there. And so -- and then about 10 years ago, I was actually at Citadel working for Ken Griffin and the whole fintech space started to take off. And I realize what my brother was doing in Canada was really ahead of the curve, ahead of any of the fintechs in the U.S. But what he didn't have were sort of the pieces that I brought to the table, the capital market side, the financial side. And so we kind of realized that we can complement each other very well by working together. And so I joined him full time 10 years ago, and we kind of then built the company together from there.

Yes. So at the end of the day, as twin brothers, you complement each other with your strengths and weaknesses. And how does that flow into a culture at a company, right, having 2 twin brothers leading the charge. I mean what's the culture at Mogo?

Yes. So I would say that we're -- first of all, in a lot of ways, we're similar, but we have different backgrounds. We have different opinions and views. And we do complement each other well, but we also challenge each other. And so there's people on our team see that we're constantly challenging each other and it kind of takes that, right? We're pioneering in a new space, new sector. We're trying to understand where, as I say, where the puck is going and there's not always a clear road map. And so we spent a lot of time challenging each other on our opinions and where they're going, and it's funny because sometimes others will hear it say, oh are you guys -- that just sounded pretty heated. Are you guys -- and we're like no, I mean, that's just part of what we do. There's -- one of the benefits, actually, as I say, is when you generally get into a debate with a lot of people, other personal things start to creep in, like, oh, are they challenging whether I'm smart or maybe they think I don't know what I am doing. And when you're identical twins, none of that comes in, you're just debating on the facts or your views. And so it allows sort of for a very sort of clear debate that way, which actually sometimes is refreshing. But anyway, I think that sort of permeates our culture that we want everybody to be challenging everything and make sure that we all agree as we sort of move forward on this journey together. Our senior team has been together a long time. I've been there 10 years and the majority of our senior team with over half of them have been there longer than me. So that's also a very long time in fintech plan.

It is, yes. We do that at Torosa where we challenge each other. And you know what, if you're -- frankly, if you're secure with yourself and the relationship with the other person, you can do that as long as you don't get personal and you should get personal when you have disagreements. So I get it. And what it ends up doing is fostering an environment where people aren't afraid to take risk. And in fintech, you've got to be taking risk.

Yes. Yes. I understand.

So you're a fintech company that's public, not private. How does that affect your decision-making?

Yes. So look, we did go public early, I would say, relative to your typical U.S. fintech. One of the ways I describe it is mean it used to be that companies like Amazon went public at a $300 million market cap, if you can believe it. And that journey to $1 trillion plus actually happened in the public market context. And -- but today, as you know, the majority of U.S. companies are going public at $10 billion, $20 billion, $40 billion, $50 billion plus. And so the majority or big, big part of that enterprise value appreciation happens in a private market context. And I would say that -- so we're -- we went public in Canada where I would say that because we don't have the deep venture capital pools, it's much harder to raise several hundred million dollars privately. And the big barrier to entry in this space ultimately is capital. It is a sector that requires a lot of capital. So you have to have access to that. And so our path in Canada was going public. And as I say, it's a pro and a con in Canada. The con is that we don't have the deep venture capital pool. So it is a challenge. However, if you are one of the few to figure out your -- navigate your way there, there's in a way less competition because if you look in the U.S., how many fintechs have raised $500 million plus, how many fintechs raised $100 million plus? How many fintechs raised $50 million plus? I mean, there are probably hundreds right? And so the level of competition, I would say, is much higher in the U.S. because of that. Obviously, Canada is smaller, but on a relative basis for the size of the market and competition, I think, in a lot of ways, we're better off in Canada.

Greg, I apologize. For those who are watching this, I haven't given you an opportunity to even tell the audience what Mogo is. Maybe we should just take a step back and you could do that.

Yes. So Mogo is really building a digital wallet for next-generation Canadians in Canada. We're 1 of the top, say, 2 consumer fintechs in Canada with about 1.7 million users. Our digital wallet today does everything from helping the consumer control their spending, managing their credit score, ID fraud protection, giving them access to credit. And now we're moving into automated investing, crypto. And soon, we're going to be launching a free stock trading app, which we're super excited about. And we're also doing this in the context of, as we say, financial health and planet health. And that's actually a topic that we think is hugely relevant to the demo that we're going after number one. And ultimately, I mean just look what's going on in the broader sector, we see all these sponsorship deals happening in the sector because brand matters, right? And so you've got effectively a full new group of companies, both on the fintech and the crypto side, building their brands and investing in those brands. And ultimately, we want to have a brand that we believe resonates with that next-generation consumer. And we think there is a very unique and relevant connection point between financial health and planet health. Happy to get into that a little bit more. But that's one of the things that also makes us unique. We are not just trying to provide digital products, but we're trying to provide a solution that helps consumers make smarter financial decisions. So if you think about the historical financial products, they were there, but most consumers find it very complex to figure out their own financial journey. Everybody is trying to figure out, hey, how do I retire and have enough money retired? What's my path to financial success? In the meantime, the average consumer is generally overspending on their credit card, spending too much and not saving while they are stressed out about their financial future. And our view is that nobody has really provided that consumer with a solution that makes it easy for them to make smarter financial decisions. That means controlling their spending, which is being more mindful of your spending, when you're more mindful, you're more in control and at the same time, being aware of some actually very simple financial and investing things that a consumer could do, like start investing early, invest in a diversified fund, start early and the power of that investing early and that compounding effect over years is massive. Effectively, every single person working if they start investing early like when they're 18, 19, 20, can retire as a millionaire. I mean even if you're making $40,000 a year and you don't make any more than that for the rest of your life, and you actually save the recommended amount. You can actually retire as a multimillionaire. Most people don't understand that. It's effectively a guaranteed path to financial success in the future. And we're trying to make that guaranteed path easier for the consumer. At the same time, we're making a very direct link to the environment. And that direct link is that the -- your -- the majority of the consumer's carbon footprint is from their everyday spending. So how do we as a society reduce our carbon footprint. As you know, every country is trying to get on a path to being carbon neutral. And the only way to get there is either by reducing consumption by the consumer or by bringing an offsetting program as well. And ultimately, the right solution, we believe, is bringing the 2 together. Everybody is talking about ways to make an impact on the climate, but very few people actually want to change their habits. So it's like, yes, I would like to make an impact, but I'm not going to stop driving my car. And so our view is what is one of the easiest ways to do it our card, as an example, basically allows you every time you use our card, we will plant a tree for every single purchase. And that will effectively put the average consumer that uses our card in a carbon -- more than a carbon neutral position, so that they're more than offsetting their own carbon footprint. And that link between financial health and planet health is hey, do I need that extra pair of running shoes that probably is not a smart decision because I've overspent this month. Oh, and by the way, what's the impact of those shoes on the environment? So thinking about both of those things together actually will allow the consumer to make a smart decision. And at the same time, we then offer that carbon offset through planting a tree. And literally, we have a path for Canada to be completely carbon neutral if more Canadians move their everyday spending to Mogo. And as we say, it's sort of are you willing to give up your cash back or your air miles to save the planet as we call it sort of the ultimate rewards program, saving the planet. And that's a big part of our branding and who we want to be to the consumer as well.

Yes, interesting. 2 years ago, you were moving a little bit slower than you have been of late with some of your collaborations and acquisitions. Talk to me about how you've decided to make certain acquisitions and collaborations or partnerships of late versus before?

Yes. So a couple of things. Canada is unique in financial services. Canada is still dominated by 5 big banks in a way that even Wells Fargo and JPMorgan do not dominate in the U.S. And so Canadians -- Canadians talk about being a fifth-generation TD Bank customer. And so they talk about the bank in a way that they don't in the U.S. as an example. And because of that, fintech adoption, I would say, has been much slower historically. COVID actually, as we all know, has been accelerated to digital adoption across all products and obviously, in financial services as well. And that's really kind of been a tipping point, I think, in Canada, as every single consumer in Canada needed to find a digital solution during COVID. Also, I would say crypto has been an accelerator to fintech adoption globally and in Canada in particular, because, by definition, if you want to buy crypto, you can't do that at your bank. And the Canadian banks, one of the most conservative banks on the planet. The only banks globally, they kept their AAA rating during the credit crisis, which means that they're even more conservative than even the big U.S. banks, which means they will be one of the last banks we believe, to really embrace cryptocurrency as an example, which we think kind of gives a very clear runway for players like Mogo that are building out that capability. So that, I would say, is sort of why sort of pre-COVID a lot of fintech adoption was slower and our growth was slower because of it. And then as things started to accelerate, we have been big believers in consolidation in fintech. And the reason we're believers, and I would say we're probably one of the early players as far as sort of embracing it. And I think you're going to see more and more of it in the U.S. as well. Is because it really accomplishes some really important things that every fintech needs. Scale, number one. Scale is critical, right? By the way, as you think about building a brand, as you think about lowering cost for the consumer across all your products, scale is going to be critical to do that and expertise across multiple verticals. Building a next-gen digital bank, which is effectively what we're doing, requires expertise in multiple verticals, whether it's lending, whether it's payments, whether it's crypto, whether it's investing, whether it's trading. All of these actually are industries into themselves and require expertise, and what is the best way we believe to get that expertise, actually acquisition because a lot of those people very difficult to hire, the type of people that you really want. But through an acquisition, you can find those like-minded entrepreneurs that are building out verticals within those industries and have that passion as well. And that's what we've sort of found with our acquisitions. Speed to market is another critical one. So one of the companies that we acquired, Moka. Saving and the investing tool brought securities industry expertise, investment in industries, one of the senior guys there, help build Fidelity's clearing business in Canada, as an example. And it was really through that acquisition that has accelerated our path to be able to be in a position for the upcoming launch of MogoTrade. We were probably 1 year, 1.5 year away from launching our own free stock trading app without this acquisition. And so that time to market, having -- and by the way, that includes development capabilities and resources, which everybody is constrained on that includes the people around the table, compliance, regulation, understanding the plumbing of the industry. It really -- and then by the way, we also acquired registration capabilities as well and that actually shortens the time frame. So for all those reasons, we've really embraced M&A as a strategic component of the way we are building out our platform. We did the same in payments where we acquired a company called Carta, which is a next-gen issuer processor, competitors to say Marqeta. And that's basically vertically integrated us on payments. Our card, which I talked about with the carbon offset really are one of our base cost of goods sold is our processing fees to a processor. But now we're able to capture that in-house. And in addition to that, it added a B2B payments leg to the Mogo stool. So think of Mogo as a B2C consumer app in Canada and then a B2B digital payments business outside of Canada. And by the way, we haven't talked about it, but we are very much of the view that this is an industry unlike software, unlike e-commerce, that is going to be 1 geographically because there are significant geographic regulatory barriers here that actually require feet on the ground, in market expertise and capabilities. You can't just turn on a new country and shift your product there, this industry doesn't work that way.

Yes. Talk to me a little bit more about regulation because everybody looks at regulation as a bad thing. I don't think it really is. It's how you embrace it. And usually, it's a catalyst to move forward. Talk to me a little bit about the regulation in Canada.

Yes. So we are, as we say, regulated across pretty much all our products. We are not regulated by 1 entity that governs our entire business because we are not a bank. So we're not regulated as a bank in Canada. And we don't actually see the need to become a bank. We believe, ultimately, we can offer all the products a bank offers without ever becoming a bank through partnerships like we are already doing. But every one of our products is subject to regulation, both provincially and federally. And our view is that would likely take a company 2 years to duplicate all of the regulatory pieces we have across all our products, both provincially and federally. And so that's obviously in a market that's moving so quickly, that's a long time, right? And that's, by the way, why our general view is when international players do come into Canada, they are going to be more likely to come in through partnerships or through acquisitions because organically, it's going to be a much bigger challenge. By the way, it requires regulatory and compliance expertise on the ground. You can't use your U.S. people for that, you need Canadian people. It requires development expertise. We had the former head of PayPal Canada on our Advisory Board who said, PayPal was never that successful in Canada outside of its main sort of legacy PayPal solution for buying on the Internet. But if you look at PayPal, Venmo and the digital wallet, they're creating in the U.S., none of those products are really available in Canada, why? Totally different payment rails. Totally different regulatory environment, which would require actually development resources just focused on Canada. And most of these players, even PayPal at a $300 billion market cap doesn't actually isn't willing to sort of commit those resources to Canada given they're still early days and even penetrating the large U.S. market. So regulation is absolutely a barrier here and a moat for local players like ourselves in Canada. I mean, if you look at the Canadian banking and broker-dealer industry, despite the presence of big U.S. players like Goldman or JPMorgan in Canada, Canada is still dominated by the Canadian banks and still dominated by the Canadian broker-dealers. Why is that? Regulation, right? And regulation is going to play -- is already playing a role in crypto as well. So Canada is really one of the only countries in the world right now that has sort of laid out a clear path, the regulatory path with cryptocurrency, in particular, it is requiring all crypto companies in Canada to be regulated, similar to equity broker-dealer registration. And every company operating in Canada has already been given notification to that end. And you're already seeing players like Binance exit Canada because of the regulatory requirements. And so those who are in Canada and are following that path, like ourselves, like our partner, Coinsquare, which we've got a significant investment in, we believe we have an advantage there from a regulatory perspective as well.

You covered this question, but I want you to expand a little bit on, if you can. Who are your competitors? And who do you admire as a competitor?

Yes. Well, so our competitor -- probably there's really one big player of scale that we sort of see as a competitor to Mogo right now in Canada and that is Wealthsimple. I mean a lot of people have sort of called Mogo the square of Canada because our app has very similar products as say Square's Cash App. And in that vein, they would say, well, simple as the Robin hood of Canada because they're the first to launch free stock trading in Canada. And right now, they're the only one. We expect to be the second free stock trading app in Canada. And they're a great company. The reality is, is we -- I say competitor because they are the other big fintech player, but the reality is we're really both going after the legacy market. That's where the majority of business is today, where the majority of the consumer's financial wallet is today. The big Canadian banks will make about $100 billion of pretax profit this year in Canada. So that is a massive TAM on any definition, and that's the big opportunity and I think ourselves and Wealthsimple, we think are both well positioned. What you are seeing in this space is in general, consumers aren't necessarily just going with 1 player. As an example, Square and Robinhood see somewhere between 40% to 50% user overlap between their users, right? So the average user has a Robinhood account, [ mandatory ] Square account may even have a Coinbase account, right? And they sort of spread their financial wallet across multiple players. I don't think anybody has emerged as sort of the dominant digital wallet for anyone yet. And I think we're still at a stage where you're going to have multiple players. The average user having multiple wallets that they use. So I think we are -- we really like our position in Canada because of the competitive landscape there. And I think, look, we obviously look at players like Robinhood and what they've done with their free stock trading app. And obviously, their challenge now is moving from really a volatile trading base revenue which you kind of seen in the last couple of quarters, how volatile that revenue can be to more of a recurring revenue model. And I think Coinbase is going to -- is struggling with the same thing. Mogo has come at it the other way where we've really built this recurring revenue model of subscription services revenue, and we don't really have a big component of what I call the high octane trading revenue. That revenue that can go up and down very quickly we think that the ultimate model is bringing those 2 together, where you still have a large percent of your revenue and that recurring revenue area. Like today, probably 95% of our revenue we would call recurring revenue versus, say, a Robinhood that the [ major ] Coinbase the majority is more of that trading base revenue. But we really think the Holy Grail is bringing all those together. But I would say other companies that we look at, we also look at brands, right? You sort of think of the brand, one of the brands that I know my brother always looks at as sort of a north star in branding is Nike. I mean think of Nike as this brand that's been around forever, but it still managed to stay relevant with the next generation, and it's a brand that's inspiring to the next generation. And that's what Mogo wants to be is an inspiring brand to the next generation, a brand that can help them get in control of the finances, while literally saving the planet. And those 2 things can actually happen together. And we don't think anybody else is focused on that. And we think we're starting to get some very good feedback from people on that. You think about marketing and user acquisition cost, ultimately, user acquisition costs big driver of that is how viral is your product do consumers want to share your product with somebody else, with their friend and tell them about it, right? Brands that they actually feel good about. Hey, I just went out and I purchased this item and I planted a tree and more than offset my carbon footprint, that's actually something a consumer feels good about and wants to share. Do they want to share that they just made $10 of cash back on their card? Probably not. But do they want to share that they're actually living a life that is -- they think is sustainable and relevant. And we think the answer is yes. Ultimately, we believe that then translates into lower customer acquisition costs and better overall unit economics for the business.

So you touched on a couple of -- a lot of different things, actually. A business that is built as a subscription model or an annuitized model usually can trade at a higher multiple than one that is completely transactional. And then I know you're also talking about launching MogoTrade. Now free trading sounds great, but we're in the business of making money. How is something really free trading?

Right. So in the U.S., as you know, the way that product is free trading is -- and it's commission free, right? The way it's commissioned free is that players like Robinhood are making money from selling the order flow to players like Citadel and effectively offsetting the cost of delivering that service to the consumer and they generate -- and they're generating revenue off that. And by the way, the other piece of that is you can have a breakeven product from a financial perspective that is driving enterprise value to business. How does that happen? Well, it happens because if that is a huge user acquisition tool and just look at what free trading was from a user acquisition to Robinhood, look at -- they're opening up more accounts then all the other discount brokers in the U.S. combined, right? The biggest single cost in that sector is user acquisition. So if you've been able to create a product that may be a low-margin product, but actually drives low user acquisition cost, you're effectively transferring revenue for lower marketing spend. And if that ratio is in your favor, you're actually better off. And I think that's what Robin Hood has actually proven their ability to do. So a, we are big believers, especially in Canada, because we're very early days. There's only 1 free stock trading out there right now. None of the big banks have gone to free stock trading that this can be a very powerful user acquisition tool. But in Canada, actually, the revenue model is actually different and we think it's a lot more profitable because it's not a pay for order flow model, it's actually an FX model. And that is for the Canadian user, any of their U.S. trading is shown in their account in Canadian dollars, and there is an FX fee for those transactions that sort of converts it obviously from FX to Canadian dollars. And that revenue model can be 5 to 10x what the pay for order flow model is in the U.S. So it's a -- let's say, it's -- it doesn't have the controversy of the pay for order flow. And it's actually significantly better in terms of financial impact. And so it's a unique model in Canada versus what you've got in the U.S.

Interesting. So with all these questions in these interviews, I always like to have some wildcard questions. And as a former banker, you're always thinking out of the box, I'm sure. Looking backwards a couple of years from now. What do you think investors are going to say, "Oh, I missed about the blockchain."

Yes. I think -- look, good question. I think there's a lot of things that we're thinking about around the blockchain right now. I would say an area of that let's say, is a trending term right now. So you could say nobody's been sort of missing that. But I actually believe is people are still trying to figure out what it means is the metaverse. And ultimately, I think the blockchain is going to power the metaverse. And I just see it with my own kids. I mean, my younger son is spending a lot of his free time in the digital world, right? And you can see a path -- and by the way, his disposable income, right, whether that -- where he wants to spend his dollars is actually not on a new pair of running shoes but on digital items in a digital world. That's literally where he wants to spend his money. And so many things that feel foreign to our generation to even try to wrap our heads around what is the value, why would I ever pay real money for something that's just purely digital. That world is already happening. I mean, it's not even a debate. You may not understand it, but it doesn't matter. That world is already happening. And I think the blockchain is going to power that to the next level because what the blockchain is effectively enabling with look at games like Axie Infinity, which is powered on the blockchain, where instead of actually spending money and actually having an in-game asset, which really doesn't have any monetizable value outside of the game, you can actually now spend money in the game for an NFT that actually you can monetize outside of the game for some form of cryptocurrency, which ultimately you can then turn into Fiete if you wanted to. But by the way, we're in a world where a consumer and a user -- and the next-generation, I think you're going to see a lot of this can literally spend a big portion of their life in that metaverse earning cryptocurrency in that world and keeping that currency in the metaverse, lending, earning returns on it, investing. And now you're getting into the world of D5, right? And effectively, building their financial -- I mean, they could literally become millionaires in the metal world and never even literally take that money out into Fiete into the real world, right? And because there is an entire system that is building to actually support and enable that. It's already happening. I mean, Axie Infinity in the last 30 days has generated a revenue of $1 billion and literally in the last 30 days. Transaction volume, real dollar transaction volume in the last 30 days in that 1 game of about $1 billion. I mean, it's really -- it's already there. So a lot of people think it's just kind of a science fiction and maybe 1 day it will be Ready Player One kind of world. But that world is already happening. And now -- and so you start to think about NFTs. And so obviously, Mogo, we ultimately see ourselves as going to be a bridge to that world. And you think about the impact on the financial system. So interestingly, a lot of people, I remember early days of fintech, when we say, here's what we're doing to kind of be that next-generation digital wallet and everybody say, well, the banks will build an app. So they're going to have an app, too. So what's different, right? Well, it was obviously a lot more than that. But now with the cryptocurrency and blockchain and the new world up in D5, people are realizing no, the entire banking system is actually changing. It's how entire money supply system is actually changing. It's a completely different world the Fiete World and the cryptocurrency world. But I think it is going to explode exponentially, and it's already starting and it's going to impact. And look, marketing dollars, think about marketing dollars, where do you want to put your marketing dollars? You want to put it on a billboard? Physical billboard? Or do you want to put it in a virtual world in an NFT and support that economy because that's where more and more of the next-generation users eyeballs are actually spending, right? That, to me, is really exciting, and we're spending a lot of time thinking about kind of how we sort of play a role in that bridge because that bridge is obviously going to be required.

Yes, don't tell my son about all this because -- and my dad used to always say, follow the kids and that's where you will know the direction of money. But I could see my son getting into all this. He's 18 years old and he loves games, right? And he won't leave his room. If he got into this. So maybe that's what he's doing in his room, I don't know. Hey, well...

Now by the way, what actually Axie Infinity is showing is actually literally gaming is a skill set that you can actually make money on, right? It's not just a skill set that's fun. You can literally make real dollars on that.

Yes. So okay. So talk to me a little bit about different industries beyond finance that are going to be impacted by blockchain as you said.

Well, I think if you sort of take that conversation about the metaverse advertising, right, marketing. That's going to be impacted because that's where more and more ad dollars are going to have to flow into that world, outside of the physical world. And so -- and then obviously, you think of NFTs and you think of the art world. And again, people are still struggling trying to understand why would I ever want a digital NFT versus a physical piece of art but that's actually already happening. And you think about this term flexing, kids talk about flexing, you're wearing our new running shoes because you're flexing, right? But actually, now a lot of their flexing is happening in the digital world. So do they want running shoes if they're actually not spending a lot of time with their friends in the physical world? Or do they actually want an NFT that sort of says something about who they are in the digital world. So I mean, it really is going to impact so many aspects of our lives. And it's obviously already happening in a lot of ways. So it's super exciting. And I think everybody who says, "I don't understand it." All you have to do is talk to a teenager. And then doesn't matter that you don't understand it or that you wouldn't do that, that's what they are doing, right? So that's just -- it's just where the world is going.

I agree with you about that. So Greg, thanks very much for your time. You're one of the presidents that we focus in on because you're block and tackling every day and dealing with all the challenges of building a real business. Thank you very much for your time, and stay tuned.

Great. Thanks, Dan.